Sharpening the Arrowhead
By Bob Lutz
GM Vice Chairman
Pontiac GTO Ram Air 6OK, where was I? I was discussing some of our brands like Saturn and Chevrolet. Let’s talk about Pontiac now. In the midst of all the Saturn excitement at the Detroit auto show, did anyone notice the interest of the public in the new G6 coupe and convertible? They, and the new Torrent SUV, are the latest entries in a Pontiac lineup that’s being replenished and expanded.
For the past few years I have been getting up in front of the press and extolling the virtues of Pontiac’s potential. We want Pontiac to be a performance-oriented division offering vehicles that can really be driven the way vehicles are meant to be driven. In the old days, that meant, simply… fast, straight-ahead, foot-down excitement. This time around, we want Pontiac to be about total performance. Not just straight-ahead power, but great vehicle dynamics and chassis management, and firm handling without compromising ride quality.
We started this with the launch of the new GTO. Many people complained about it because it didn’t look anything like the old GTO. But it was never supposed to look like the old GTO – it was supposed to feel like the old GTO. When you put your right foot into it, it’s supposed to give you the same visceral thrill as the old one, its V8 launching you from a standing start. All the GTO enthusiasts out there… their affection was not based upon the car’s looks, but upon the driving experience. Anyone who’s driven the new one will tell you that the power is there, the feeling is there, and the handling is better than it ever was. Apparently, its current owners think so, because their love and enthusiasm for it helped it win Most Appealing Sporty Car in the most recent JD Power APEAL awards.
Anyway, that’s the plan for all the Pontiacs, from the forthcoming Solstice roadster to the new Torrent SUV. Even the ones that aren’t performance cars per se will make the driver feel connected to the road.
Bob Lutz Introduces 2006 Pontiac Torrent at the LA Auto ShowCompare a Pontiac showroom from ten or even five years ago to how one will look next year. Except for the sign out front, you won’t even recognize the place.
You’ll have the beautiful Solstice. The G6 family will be complete, with the coupe and retractable hard-top convertible to go along with the sedan that, thanks to Oprah, delivered the most TV exposure Pontiac has had since The Rockford Files. You’ll see a stylish new SUV in the Torrent, an innovative crossover sport van in the Montana SV6, and our various GXP performance packages.
It will be a whole new ballgame for Pontiac, one that we hope excites current Pontiac fans and creates new ones at the same time. Stay tuned.
Pontiac shows off a new coupe, convertible and SUV in the City of Angels.
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Read Words the Way They Were Meant to Be Read
I love it when I read something that just is so redundant or such a non-statement that I think, “I would probably write that on my blog… as a pun, one liner or joke.” Take for example this blog entry by one of the big-wigs at General Motors. It h…
Bob – the problem with the new GTO was not that it doesn’t look like the old GTO, the problem was that it looks like a rental car. Blah. No visual excitement. When someone plunks down $35 large for a sports car, they want it to be noticed. You can go on and on about the power and handling (which are excellent), but at the end of the day it’s the lack of style that’s killing sales. Denying that makes you come off as false. You know better – and so do we.
Welcome Back, Bob
Good to see Bob Lutz is back at his blog.
Nice to hear that You want to put Pontiac back on track.But I would like to see the legendary GTO at German dealerships to feel the real excitment.
Monaro is very well perceived on the U.K,so why not selling the GTO in Germany?I mean Pontiac not Opel,because Opel means nothing and Pontiac GTO means much…
I’m definitely excited with some of the things, I’m seeing out of the Pontiac division. I think the G6 is going to be a great competitor in its class. The G6 coupe is also going to be competitive and the G6 convertible will definitely attract buyers with that hard top system.
And I know the Pontiac Solstice is going to be a huge success. Although that’s a model I would like GXP’d quickly. I think if it can offer a lil more power it will have people lined up at the factory to drive one off. So if the rumors are true that a supercharger is in store for it (as well as the great looking Sky) don’t make us wait too long for it please.
The GTO is a great car. I’ve driven it and loved it. I know the price shocks some people. But if you drive the car, you can see that the money has been spent under the sheetmetal. Of course the sheetmetal could use a fresher designer. Something that really says GTO. Not quite a performance value, but a great car, if you can get your hands on it.
As for me I’m excited about the Solstice. If the driving dynamics are as good, as the styling, it should be an awesome car. And if a lil more grunt can be added for not too much more money, dealers wouldn’t be able to keep them on their lots and I’d be in the line.
I spent a lot of time in the Pontiac displays at the LA Auto Show. Pontiac looks like its well on its way to finally bringing us some Driving Excitement.
Pontiac doesn’t need a roadster that has just been overshadowed by it’s corporate cousin. What Pontiac needs to do is drop a daisy-cutter in the automotive landscape in the form of a new, light, tight, RWD, 2+2, back-to-basics notch back 4dr sedan or coupe, or a re-incarnated F-body if you will. Forget about screaming-eagle decals and oddly proportioned and heavy gen IVs, but think about a gen I inspired car on an extended wheelbase kappa platform, with a squared off front end, clean lines, and unadorned body finish. Offer a Firebird Formula with turbo 4cy and AWD. Offer a Trans-am with a high revving, all aluminum pushrod horsepower-focused 327 V8 that’ll rev to 7500rpm. Offer a Trans-Am SuperDuty with a torque-focused LS2 and automatic sequential transmission. Offer a Trans-Am Canam edition with a 7.0L LS7. Pontiac’s possibilities are endless, the history is storied, and the division is a performance icon. Pontiac should only build performance cars, but those cars themselves should be available with a very wide specturm of powerplants and drivetrain combinations to offer all users something they place a priority on.
Pontiac’s strategy should be similar to BMWs, where a single carline such as the 3-series supports a 320, an M3, and everything in between. But that fact remains, every 3-series is based on what was desinged to be a performance car.
Pontiac to Get Some Neede Attention
As a long time Pontiac enthusiast I was encouraged today to see Bob Lutz, Vice-Chairman of GM give us some insight on his Blog into the marque’s immediate future.
I’m looking for a good reason to trade the Bonneville in on something exciting. Don…
My only issue with Pontiac is the lack of headroom. How about actually making a Pontiac that people over 6′ can enjoy sitting in? Last time I bought a car, I didn’t even bother looking at Pontiac because of my experience with the rental fleet.
Bob,
First off, I LOVE the GTO, and much of the criticism of this car is very misjudged. I believe the biggest mistake in marketing this vehicle is the GTO name. People won’t even consider this car because of the name alone…sad as it is.
I think I represent most of the GTO owners when I say that the appeal of the new Goat rests on its speed, agility, and sophistication. Yes, I said sophistication! Unfortunately, most people have a problem with the fact that this car is sophisticated, the Monaro that it is based off of is actually marketed as a luxury sports sedan with sat nav, park distance sensors, sun roof, and additional odds/ends for the interior.
As the individual above me mentioned the moniker “GTO” has probably turned off a number of backward thinking buyers. I personally love the interior, power, and handling ability that I believe puts this car in the same class as a number of Mercedes and BMW’s.
I live in Germany and can say for a fact that this car looks more like a Merc’ than it does a Cavalier! And to think I can smoke most of these Euro cars that cost twice as much. It’s a great day when I smoke a BMW 6er or Merc SL55!
Bob,
I only have one problem with your most current post, the addition of the Torrent. While I agree that the 3400 engine is good enough for the Chevrolet version of that SUV, why is there not a high performance offering for Pontiac. The VUE based on the same platform has a much more powerful engine. All that would need to be done is add the new 3900 to the lineup and there would be enough performance to justify a price increase over the chevy. I don’t mind cars that look the same if underneath there is something different about the cars. But rebadging a Chevrolet and saying that it will add exitement to the Pontiac Division is just wrong.
Speaking of the GTO, it is my idea choice for a performance vehicle, it can outdrive all of its competition, and you don’t look like a prima donna driving one.
Thanks,
Eric
Mr.Lutz, I’m looking for an excuse to “buy American”, after switching to Japanese vehicles 15 years ago. Unfortunately, I’m still looking for that excuse.
With all the talent and resources that GM has, why can’t every GM division have at least ONE vehicle that is best in class for design, quality and performance? AND outsells the Japanese competition?
Pontiac’s comeback will have to come with the help of Pontiac dealers understanding that “market adjustments” cannot hit the Pontiac Solstice, or even the 2005 Pontiac GTO. Such mark-ups of up to $10,000 on a vehicle because a certain dealership is the only one in town with the vehicle is killer.
GM should rein in these dealers that practice this and make an example out of the ones that do not conform.
Sir:
What about excitement for the budget minded enthusiast? Can we expect an exciting entry level car? Maybe a mondern day Tempest?
I think a lot of people are craving a small RWD two door / four door entry level car at/under $20000.
You’d have a new generation of buyers who aspire to drive Pontiacs… A.K.A. the youth market.
Please build the Torrana and sell it here in the United States.
All I have to say is please, please, release the RAM AIR IV. I have to say the RAM AIR IV is, in my humble opinion, the best looking car i’ve ever seen. I imagine it combined with an LS7 engine, thicker sway bars and beefier rear for just over 40k. This is my dream, Mr. Lutz, make it come true!
Bob Lutz: Back on Blog
GM’s Bob Lutz has a new entry on his Fastlane blog. This time, he’s extolling the performance virtues of the Pontiac brand. Sharpening the Arrowhead [Fastlane Blog] Related: Twice Fortnightly Does Not a Blog Make: Educating Bob Lutz [internal]…
Bob Lutz: Back on Blog
Largely due to our recent entreaties (ok, largely not) GM’s Bob Lutz has a new entry on his Fastlane blog. This time, he’s touting the bright future of the Pontiac performance brand. The GTO is a hot ride, to be…
Please bring out the Ram Air 6. That solves the wimpy looks problem of the GTO, and it’s not fair to show something so nice and hold it back.
And what happened to the Solstice coupe? I think either Saturn or Pontiac should have gotten a Kappa hardtop, it would go a long way to distinguishing the platform-mates.
Thanks for posting!
Mr. Lutz,
You have hooked me. I want to thank you for such a bold, earnest attempt to communicate. As Saab 9-5 owners, my wife and I are car nuts. When we met, she had a Triumph TR-6 and I had a Fiat 124 spyder.
Thanks. I’ll be a regular reader. I design web sites and software, but I’ve always dreamed of designing cars.
Bob, I have been a Pontiac fan for years. I came home from the hospital when I was born in a 1960 Ventura and I even brought my son home in a SSEI.
I have driven every kind of Pontiac from 59 and up and can say I love the new GTO. The only thing I see is the dealer pricing is killing it more so than looks.
I went and bought a Comp G last year and the dealer gave me a price of $23,728 on a $32,000 dollar car with out even having to haggle. Would they do the same on a GTO? No! Even if they could get it to 25-26k I would have thought about it. Lets face it it was late in the game before dealer incentives hit.
I have two Pontiac’s and a GMC in the garage as I type. I hope to add a Supercharged Solstice in a year or two. If the price does not get out of line I will add it as a 4th car. I see you have kept the price in line so far on the Solstice and thank you. Please try to do so with the rest of the line. I want to keep driving Pontiacs and hope other will join me if the price is right.
Mr. Lutz, first off, a debt of gratitude is owed to you by all GM fans for what you’ve managed to do for GM in a very short time: completely change philosophies and give us hope. The new products are all very exciting to me, but I can’t help but shake the feeling that there are still some remnants of that old beaurocratic GM process that refuses to make waves. By waves I mean cars like the Solstice and platforms like Zeta and Kappa, which, it is apparent to me at least, would have never happened had it not been for your steady guidance. I thank you and am in deep admiration for what you have done with our company: promise stellar products that have passion and capture the human spirit and delivered on that promise. Cars like the Velite, Sixteen, and Aura (which I know are all coming, whether you want to say it or not) are truly exciting to behold and to drive I’m sure, and they don’t cut corners like GM is so famous for doing. You will deliver, I know it. In retrospect I don’t believe there was anything inherently wrong with the GTO the way it was released, it’s just the victim of preordained circumstances. That it had styling that didn’t set the world on fire contributed to it’s “failure” (though I don’t see it as a failure, it never was intended to be a sell-out and its true ripple effect won’t be truly felt until this fall when that lineup you are talking about debuts). However, the biggest reason for the GTO’s failure was the perception, or lack thereof, of what it was. For the money, and everything you said about “feel” and dynamics is exactly on, this car was an M3 beater, not a Ford Mustang competitor. It has a useable back seat, abundant power, unlimited performance potential in the engine block and suspension components, and as you stated it’s the kind of car people will be pleasantly surprised with when they actually own it. This car was Pontiac’s 3-series competitor, the problem is the public never found out that’s what was coming out of Pontiac, and you can’t blame the public for not thinking a BMW competitor would be coming from Pontiac. From the outset the right image wasn’t created for the GTO, it just didn’t create enough of a stir. And the enthusiasts get me riled up the most, you wanted a fast car that handled extremely well and had a high quality feel at a reasonable price, well, you got it, in spades. STOP complaining. Your number one reason to complain is styling? OH, BS, if you really wanted to harness the performance potential of this car you would make your own styling enhancements, as plenty are feasible on this sexy car. Ever heard of the import tuner crowd? They work on domestics too, and they’d be more than happy to give this GTO the distintive appearance you so desire. The GTO Woodward is a good example of this, a little less extreme example can be found as an artist’s illustration in the pages of Motor Trend, slap some more aggressive wheels, ground effects, taller wing, and hood scoop and there you have the “Intimidator” your heart so desires. The Mustang is a nicely styled car, but everyone will have one, if you want something different that can outperform it buy a 2005 GTO and make it unique to your tastes, that way NO ONE will have your car. Enthusiasts who complain about the styling of this car can go some place and stay there, they don’t deserve this fine piece of machinery you’ve delivered us Mr. Lutz.
A little note to you, Mr. Lutz: if ever there was a car that could benefit from the right kind of advertising of “appearance packages” it would be this car, make a Judge appearance package with just a stiffened suspension, 400hp is already great, though if you want to add more hp I wouldn’t complain, price it reasonably, and advertise the heck out of it, only picture that car from now on, I think that would lead to more personal customization of this nice looking car. People need to realize the design potential of this and others, Cobalt included, so that they can change it to their own special needs.
Hi again Bob,
It is a good idea that Pontiac brings out the Torrent and hide the awful looking Aztek in the dungeon of previous mistakes made by the “old GM”. However the Torrent needs the Vue Redline 6 cylinder engine that you currently purchase from Honda. The Equinox has had positive reviews regarding the 3.4L from China as the 5-speed Japanese built automatic is its saving grace. The Torrent is supposed to be performance oriented. It needs more power, not the generic value based push-rod V-6 made in China. I guess this does not work on a cost basis and a logistical basis as the Equinox/Torrent is produced in Canada and the Vue is made in Spring Hill. Maybe you can save it for a GXP model produced out of the Spring Hill plant?
Regards,
Jeff Crew
Is it just me or what? But I am seeing all over this blog that people are saying Camaro and Chevelle. Well Mr Lutz what’s the deal with the Camaro? If it’s a secret and you can’t say good enough for me. Any sort of news would be great to hear if it can be told. Lots of rumors are out there about it. 2007 would be good as it’s the 40th. My 67 Camaro sure would look good next to a brand new Camaro. My 69 SS396 Chevelle would look good next to a new Chevelle also.
Hey Bob. The Rockford Files? What about Knight Rider? Jim Rockford merely drove around in a gold Firebird. With Knight Rider, the car was the star of the show! Okay, so the Rockford Files has held up better over time, and we’d all like to forget the early 3rd-Gen F-bodies, but c’mon!
As for the Goat, I fell in love with the GTO as a little kid back in the late ’70s. I knew nothing about its horsepower figures or cubic inches. It just looked totally badass. The modern Goat, as impressive as its numbers are, wouldn’t inspire lust in a three-year-old the way the ‘69 did for me. Or even for that matter, the ‘77 T/A. And that, Mr. Lutz, is the crux of the problem. It doesn’t have to look like the original GTO, but it has to inspire the same emotions and wonder on all fronts–not just performance. The Chrysler 300 does it. The new Mustang does it. The GTO doesn’t. It’s as simple as that.
Hi Bob,
I respect everything you are doing at GM, but using the GTO name on a car that you basically took straight from Australia and was several years old doesn’t seem right. In order for GM to get back on top you can’t just bring a car over from another country and expect it to perk the interest of someone in their mid-thirties like myself. The look of the car is old and tired, clearly showing its age. I hear that it is selling well, but my friends and I would rather drive something with a fresher look, say the new Mustang (except Ford was being cheap by not having independent rear suspension).
Bob, I was a navigator (EA-6Bs) in the Marine Corps and I love your style. The new Solstice is where you’ve really shined.
Semper Fi,
Marc McClelland
A friend of mine that works for a Pontiac Dealership stated that the G6 is so popular it has a 55% residual on a 3 year lease. The press made a big deal about it when Ford had a vehicle that did, but no one seems to notice that GM has increased residuals because of “Gotta Haves”.
Great work to all those involved on the G6.
Mr. Lutz,
The Pontiac Torrent is a bad idea. It’s the same badge engineering that got GM into so much trouble in the ’80s.
I applaud your stated direction of making Pontiac a “performance-oriented division offering vehicles that can really be driven the way vehicles are meant to be driven.” But your execution of that leaves me scratching my head. What’s a performance-oriented division doing with a minivan and an SUV in its lineup? Leave these to the Buicks and Chevrolets of the corporation. Lets see some real performance CARS.
I like the Solstice (though it’s not a vehicle I could buy as a family man). The G6 is just plain bland. The GTO is a mover but definitely not a looker. The Bonnie and “all-new for 2004″ Grand Prix are sorely in need of a real update rather than another stop-gap freshening.
Please give the G8 (or whatever you end up calling the Pontiac Zeta sedan) an option for a V8 with DOD, RWD/AWD and sharp, compelling styling. Nothing would make me more disappointed than to see the car look like just another jelly bean similar to the G6 & GTO. This is the car I’m waiting for. If it’s not done right, my GM loyalty will sadly come to an end.
Mr. Lutz,
Re: Pontiac SUV. Nice styling. Bad choice
for an engine. The Honda engine would have
been much more “Pontiac” than the iron block
mill from the People’s Republic.
Also, if Pontiac is supposed to be the “sporty” division of GM, it needs more manual trans options.
Bob,
I disagree with your analysis that people’s affection for original GTO was just the performance and not the looks. As with any car, the love affair starts with the looks and finishes with the performance. If it were the other way around, you’d see a lot more Consuliers and M3 coupes out there.
Instead of constantly trying to convince people that they should want your car, give them the car that they want.
My wife and I are old enough to have wanted an original GTO in high school, and we were very excited about what we read on the new one. We visited our local dealership, Maxwell in Round Rock, Texas. They had one on the floor, but that was the extent of their involvement. They knew very little about it. They had none that we could drive. We left our name and phone number for them to call us when they had a sample that we *could* drive, but we have not heard from them. Baby boomers with money, whose parents said *NO!* 30 years ago? Are we the “target market?”
As you revitalize the brand, you need to identify dealerships like that, and burn them down. The local BMW dealer knows all the ins and outs of the 5 series backwards and forwards, and they are interested in each and every customer. It makes a difference.
I was very disappointed by the G6, in all trim levels. The attention to detail that GM is promising in the interior was simply not there. The G6 (and it’s Malibu cousin) interior showed poor fit and finish and could have been a benchmark for how to make sure your interior materials look cheap. Getting rid of the plastic flashing from the molding process would be a good start to improving it. Making it look more like leather and less like something made by Rubbermaid would be even better.
Is there anything you can do about the video game feel of the steering while you’re at it? I was turned off when driving it during the first 10 yards of travel.
The interior of both the GTO (not a fair comparison due to price) and the Saab 9-2x (in the same price range as the G6 and Malibu) were head and shoulders above the Epsilon platform cousins.
On a positive note, I am a fan of the GTO both in ‘04 and ‘05 trim. I WOULD buy it for the performance. Though I’d like to see a spoiler delete option and some way to make it lose some of the weight it’s hefting around.
Keep up the good work, Bob. Good, bad, or indifferent, I’m glad there’s someone up there that knows cars are more than a bunch of metal parts with a certain profit margin bolted together.
Wheres a compact car? You have the Pontiac Corrola Matrix, err, Vibe, but that is both not enough (some people don’t like station wagons) and more importantly, strangly lists for $2.5k more than the toyota version!
The elimination of the sunfire is good riddance, the cavalier/sunfire was the rental car I dispised MORE than the Ford Focus, while the cobalt looks to be up there with the Mazda 3 in the “Nice Rental” list.
But there needs to be a replacement for the sunfire, and SOON. Who cares if its a cobalt with different sheetmetal and better suspension tuning, thats not only what is expected, but what is needed.
Strong performance from the ‘04-’05 GTO is very respectable – but is not enough to excite the public at large. Why? Because strong performance is commonplace today. Most new cars – even the mundane ones – can outperform many of the classic cars we so admire. Even if the new GTO is near the top of its class, it doesn’t have the heritage styling cues that most people expect when the legendary GTO name is placed on the car.
Comparing the new GTO performance to that of the classic GTO is pointless. The classic GTO was a performance package with styling mods that was enough to distiguish the brand from the rest of the 1960s automotive landscape. You also can’t ignore the marketing that took advantage of the youth oriented trends happening at the time. [note the parallel to the current tuner phenomenon for today's youth market].
Marketing a new muscle car today is a totally different animal. Strong performance is important, but it’s also expected. Now, more is needed to ignite excitement around the brand. Styling is an important feature. The new GTOs are not un-attractive. They have clean shape, and carry-on the current Pontiac familial look. They don’t however envoke any styling reminecient of the classic GTOs. There is a total disconnect from a styling perspective. Reaction from the automotive pundits and enthusiasts of the classic GTOs lament this missed opportunity to leverage the GTO styling heritage to help make the new GTOs an unqualified success.
Ford seems to have tapped into this formula with their new interpretation of the Mustang. There is no mistaking what it is. Of course the new Mustangs, Corvettes [even Firebirds and Camaros until the end] have had the benefit of an un-interupted lineage to help with the evolution and brand identification. Even more reason that Pontiac needed to make more of an effort to help the buying public connect the dots when introducing a brand name with historic cache. Again Ford did this when they introduced the new T-Bird, which created tremendous excitement when it was released.
Now some will argue that Chrysler didn’t really connect the styling dots with the new 300C compared to the vintage 300s. Its success seems to blow my arguement out of the water. While I agree they share little from a styling perspective, The vintage 300s are not nearly as well known to the public so there is much less expectation. Also the new 300C is daring in its own right – breaking new ground from a styling perspective, and sets its own trend. Also, Chrysler is cashing in on its “HEMI” heritage in a big way.
In that respect, I’d rather the GTO moniker be associated with a Pontiac that breaks new styling ground if it’s not going to harken back to its heritage. How about a two-door G6 or Solstice with GTO performance…
Sound’s like Pontiac’s new protfolio has a lot of Chevy rebadges. Where’s the brand Identity? This stockholder is disapointed in his investment.
That Ram Air 6 GTO looks hot. That could be what rescues the GTO, as I’ve heard that it’s not as popular as was hoped.
However, it’s probably because, up until this Ram Air 6 and the new 2005 with the hood scoops, it didn’t look distinctive enough. If you’re gonna lay down over $35k for a performance car, it can’t get confused with a generic Japanese sedan. Perhaps now with the 400hp & scoops, it’ll get more attention.
Mr. Lutz- thanks for sharing, and keep up the good work!
Mr. Lutz
I am of a mind that incremental improvement lasts. That is how the Japanese did it. Their cars were crap in the 60’s and they slowly improved in all areas. For the last 5 to 10 years, I have seen the same for the American car companies. I am truly happy that you are starting to get wins over the accountant driven decision-making at GM. I want Americans to buy American because the product is great. Buying American creates jobs, profit, and expertise in America. Buying American keeps investment and ideas here at home and gives us control of our future. That isn’t for us but for our children. We owe them that. So I will end it with a Thank You for trying to create persuasive, high quality American made automobiles. I appreciate it and I know my children will too.
PS. Please put an emphasis on American made parts. I am willing to spend a few more dollars for a comparable American made part over a foreign made part.
There’s something huge that’s wrong with Pontiac, and GM: they over promise, they under deliver, and lately, they never seem to “get it.” The Pontiac G6 is a perfect example of this. While the G6’s styling is truly a step up (from the basement of slap-dash styling gimmicks), Car & Driver confirms that from a handling/fun-to-drive point of view, it’s just a Grand Am in a better wrapper. I quote from the January 2005 magazine: “Highs: Cladding-free good looks, spacious interior, solid structure. Lows: Porky weight, numb steering, spongy handling. The Verdict: The grandest Grand Am stirs the pot but not the soul.”
Consumers Reports is a good contrast to Car & Driver, providing the practical side of view. I quote from CR’s ‘Driving Experience’: “Handling is lackluster, with notable body lean and tire squeal even under the mildest conditions. Steering is light and vague at low speeds. The G6 reaches its cornering limits early, initially understeering and then quickly transitioning to a controlled tailslide. It didn’t feel secure in our avoidance maneuver.”
This G6 handling bungle-in-progress brings up a recurring issue: ‘Numb or vague steering’ seems to be a GM trademark. So much for ‘extolling the virtues.’
As for the GTO, what more can be said, except isn’t it time for you and GM to finally admit you screwed it up? It’s a fine car I’ve heard, but it’s looks are lame. Lame looks, lame “excitement,” lame sales. The utter debate over it is proof enough. Car enthusiasts aren’t that dumb. “Not supposed to look like the old GTO…”, well even if it was supposed to, which “GTO” would that be? One of the several forgettable Pontiac cars with the GTO tag glued on it over the years?
You and GM steadily lose your credibility in situations like the GTO, the G6, the totally overpriced SSR, the invisible LaCrosse, and GM’s upcoming ‘PT Cruiser.’ The public becomes numb to your braying about ‘how great it is,” “how much better it is–this time,” “how we’re on the right track and redemption is just around the corner.” Oh, please.
My wish for pontiac is a serious drivers car along the lines of a 3 series. the new gxp grand prix is not going to cut it. 4 speed auto with the TAP shift? Why not a 5 speed auto with proper levers behind the steering wheel? This car will plow into corners because of its nose heavy v8. The ignorant will buy it but not real enthusiasts.
This latest post provided some insight, but it left one big question: What will replace the Sunfire? I can’t imagine the Vibe and Solstice taking up all the slack, since not everyone wants a wagon or a roadster. I’m hopeful that the Pursuit will be brought in from Canada (with black face gauges at least available, if not standard) for us FWD-ers and perhaps a RWD car for those who want that.
Hey Bob: JD Powers also said in an article entitled ” GTO Flat Sales The Result of Bland Styling? “: “It appears the GTO shares the same allure as in GMs lower level cars such as the Cavalier and GrandAm”. There were many of the Pontiac loyal anticipating the release of this car and we got met with a huge disappointment.
I stand corrected. Pontiac DOES have a reskinned cobalt for sale: the Pontiac Pursuit. However, it is a canada-only model. Why isn’t this a US model as well? The Vibe is NOT an adequite substitute, especially with the ridiculously-higher price than the identical Corrola Matrix.
We started this with the launch of the new GTO. Many people complained about it because it didn’t look anything like the old GTO. But it was never supposed to look like the old GTO – it was supposed to feel like the old GTO. When you put your right foot into it, it’s supposed to give you the same visceral thrill as the old one, its V8 launching you from a standing start. All the GTO enthusiasts out there… their affection was not based upon the car’s looks, but upon the driving experience.
Bob, what can the so-called GTO give me in the way of driving that I can’t get from a 330? Style is what you’re supposed to be delivering, but today’s Pontiacs look insipid. That trademark double-kidney grill is but a vestige of the ’60s. I can’t believe you can’t hire a designer who could give them some attitude, like the Magnum, that would make people lust after it. (Switch the last two consonants in your name, and what do you get? GM cars need a Lutz factor.) — David, Big Kahuna, motorlegends.com
Okay, there are some encouraging developments (GTO), but the G6 is the bread-and-butter car. Everything I’ve read–from enthusiast magazine to Consumer Reports–said it is simply not up to the standards set by other (foreign) cars in its price range.
I am tired of the too-many GM products that are not legimately competitive with other vehicles in their class.
Obviously massive transformations can’t be made quickly, and it is encouraging to see things seemingly heading in the right direction, but there is still a long way to go.
Keep fighting to get there.
Think about it this way. You’d never drop a Corvette engine into a Monte Carlo body, badge it as a Corvette and tell the public that it’s always been about the performance, looks be damned. GM would be strung up for that, and I think rightly so.
In the case of higher end muscle cars, style will always matter as much as substance. This is a far different segment from, say, economy or family class vehicles. In those cases, you look more for economy and function, so style does not mean as much. However, in this case, you want both a combination of performance and style, because that’s what a muscle car is all about. You can’t just have one without the other.
I must quote you on this.
“We want Pontiac to be a performance-oriented division offering vehicles that can really be driven the way vehicles are meant to be driven.”
Does that mean that GM/Pontiac will also deny warranty work like other manufacturers on a “performace” vehicle because they race the car at a track once a month? Two companies currently sell a car that is built and sold as “performance” cars yet claims are deined constantly because they were driven at the track.
One company even offers a free membership for SCCA events but the second the tires hit the track, the warranty is void. The other company actually searched SCCA websites and sent those, that were there in a specific car, letters saying that their warranys were now void.
I wonder why street racing is so popular. Track events void a warranty. Heaven forbid someone actually drive a car for what it was built, sold and advertised as, especially when its off the public streets.
Point is, if you build performance cars, back them up. What would be the point of building them if they can’t drive them like there supposed to be driven.
I just finished reading “The Death of Detroit”…it was on sale at Hastings for $3.99.
At any rate, the author leaves the Detroit automakers for dead after talking about how Nissan, Hyundai, etc. have come back due to good products and improved quality. And the folks from Detroit can’t???
Having seen what is in the pipeline from GM, I am not giving up on the the “General” just yet. Kick butts and take names!
Thanks for the insight Mr lutz.
The Torrent(as well as the Equinox)
are both nice looking, well
equipped SUV’s. The real problem
that I have is with the powertrain.
How could these two vehicles NOT get
the honda drivetrain. (Sorry…It
is far superior to the GM option)
While the dog Vue gets the primo
motor/tranny combo. Is it a supply
issue?
Bob,
After reading what you would like Pontiac to be it like sounds like the Fiero GT. Handles as good as a Corvette, cheaper, lighter, just as stylish as a c6. A car with a huge following even today. Could easily be built on kappa and move 40000 units every year profitably. Definately “gotta have”. Most Pontiac owners want this type of car over a miata competitor. Time will tell if Pontiac is truly the performance division again.
The decision to bring the GTO back was absolutely correct, the car just wasnt executed/marketed correctly. The cars most important aspect styling wasnt a high enough priority. Previously GTO owners interests in a heritage inspired car were ignored alienating them (just like what will happen with Saturn and the elimination of plastic panels). What the market has also shown is there would be much greater demand for the car in the 25-28k price range. No one wants an oversized Cavalier even with 350 hp.
Keep the Grand Prix name, it has a great tradition. Leave the alpha numberic names to the imports. Instead of trying to emulate some of the foreign competitors, just go back to the day of building unique,stylish, brand specific models-fiero gt, grand national, trans am and el camino. Where’s the cadillac cien and chevy nomad? When will Pontiac have more information on its new mystery model?
Yes, I saw the G6 coupe and convertible at the NAIAS. I asked the model to cycle the roof on the convertible. She indicated that she had just done that and I had to wait five minutes – Not! What was GM afraid of? Too many cycles and it would have stopped working or seized-up? You can’t recall a model that hasn’t made it to production yet, can you?
I have lusted after a Monaro since 1999, when I first heard of them. When I heard that Jim Wangers had an HSV GTS at his garage down in Oceanside, CA, I made sure to go to a Pontiac Grand Prix event held there (I do drive one) to see it. I loved it.
When I heard you (Mr. Lutz) were going to bring it to the US, I was overjoyed. I even thought calling it a GTO was a good call. Now I see how wrong I was. There are so many Pontiac enthusiasts that are so hung up on hood scoops and hood tachs that they missed the fact there was a 350hp RWD 6 speed manual for about 30 large in the USA!
In retrospect, it should have been called the Pontiac Monaro. I still plan on buying one, but I will wait until the ’07s hit the showrooms. If I don’t like the restyle, there may still be some ’06’s sitting around due to ridiculous dealer “market adjustments”.
Thanks for bringing the car, no matter what it is called, to our shores.
Bob,
We need real excitement at Pontiac and excellent passenger vehicles. The new Grand Prix is an excellent example of how we do get some things correct. Now, it’s time to do the best possible products possible with the inclusion of an affordable GTO car “Tempest”?. The Solstice is going to be excellent, but it is more for the GM employees and family who always wanted a Mazda Miata. That market is very limited. We need a Mustang competitor NOW! How about GTO1 ($20k), GTO2 ($25k) and GTO3($32k+). Give the gear heads what they are asking for. Not all the tuners want FWD cars! Give them the affordable canvas and let the artists take the car where they want. THanks for your interest in what the public is really thinking about GM products.
Pontiac, maybe there’s life after all!
I am a long time Pontiac enthusiast and was encouraged today to discover on Bob Lutz’s Blog, some insight into the marque’s immediate future. Seems like there is a lot of great new product coming out in the next few years.
I hope they don’t kill …
I just went out to buy a Grand Prix. By almost all accounts, It is a great car. The problem seems to be that GM trade-in value on my GM car (excelent shape) is not what it should be. They would not offer more on my trade. While there I took the GP for a ride and honestly it did not impress me. It had no headroom at all and I am not tall. I like the upright seating that they are calling it over at Ford…but I had two VW’s that had that before I bought the Alero. The Alero is great in the snow but the front brakes had to be re-shoed twice at 38,000 miles (that’s wrong). On the plus side the 3.4 engine was great for that car. Sadly it it being made in China now.That makes me NOT want to buy any car or SUV (IE Equinox) that has it. I bought the Alero after 911 to help the US and the economy. The G6 has a terribly fat windshield frame that makes me feel like a toad looking out a hole. That would be my choice size-wise but I do not like the way I sit in it.
Well living in Detroit Mr. Lutz, you have to know what it’s like rooting for the home team and being dissapointed (how bout them Lions?), but for the first time in a while I’m proud of the Chevy lineup . I bleed GM blue, I’ve interned for 2 summers with you, GM is my thing! It’s nice to know that theres FINALLY someone in the GM leadership that actually cares about the products they produce and what America thinks of them.
Thanks alot
98% of all Fords made are still on the road today
2% made it home
Bob, nice to see new product in my showroom. One problem that still affects GM: too much plastic in the interior. I still get that from customers. People want to show off their new car. Please jazz them up in the interior a little, please.
I like the GTO’s styling. I think it is tastefully understated. The motor press complained when Pontiacs were overstyled, such as the last generation Trans Am, and now they are complaining the new GTO is too plain. These people are losing creditbility with me.
My recommendation for improving the GTO is to incorporate variable displacement and a 5 or 6 speed automatic transmission to improve the fuel economy. The GTO would be a world beater then.
Mr. Lutz:
In spite of all the hoopla, I don’t see much that has changed at GM over the last few years.
I’m waiting for the day when GM finally has a high quality, high volume car that is superior to AND will outsell the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord. Ditto for the minivan market. That would be a great beginning, to take back major market segments given up to the Japanese. Forget about distractions like the Hummer and Solstice. GM needs to get back to the basics.
Is the above too much to ask with GM’s vast pool of talent and resources? Personally, I think it’s a matter of national prestige.
Re: Sharpening the arrowhead. After reading some of the abuse you’ve taken over the “GTO”, and your subsequent responses… it’s apparent that your customers get it, and that you still don’t.
The mere fact that the “GTO wasn’t supposed to look like a GTO, just feel like one” tells the whole story. Horsepower is great, but without styling, you’ve got nothing. Ford is really starting to dial this in, and Chrysler just slightly missed the mark with the Charger (front end is horrible, and a four door?) If GM doesn’t pay close attention, the Pony’s will leave you in the dust.
Not sure how loud Gen X’ers have to yell give us nostalgia and HP before you get it, but here’s one more voice in the croud for you.
I just missed the glory days of the 60’s. By the time I was old enough to afford a new car, the hottest trend was a citation… enough said.
Give me and millions of others something to drive proudly, and I’ll be the first in line. My lease on an Impala is up soon… I’m already shopping imports… never stepped foot in a Volvo dealership before, but their stuff is beginning to have some appeal.
Give me a sports car that looks and acts like the ones I missed out on, and I’m all yours.
Dave H
I live in Australia and get to see the Monaro on a daily basis, and I can tell you that the GTO Ram Air 6 looks much nicer than our Monaro.
In fact, pretty much all the members of our local LS1 forum agree.
PS : Do yourselves a favor and lose the rear wing. It ruins the GTO’s beautiful lines.
Bob,
Thanks for your efforts to get GM headed in the right direction. As the owner of a 1988 Fiero GT choptop with a 383 stroker, I know a little bit about Pontiac driving excitment! Please don’t repeat the typical GM pattern of introducing an underpowered, overhyped car and then spending years getting it right, only to kill it off when you do. The Solstice has tons of potential and could be a huge hit if more power was optional(the new 5.3 aluminum V8 would make a wonderfully balanced package)
You’ve done incredible work at GM, Mr. Lutz, and I hope you continue to do so for a long time. Here are my thoughts, as a 20 year old who’s favorite brand has always been Pontiac.
First, for the sake of the pride of the Pontiac name, dump the Aztek. I can’t believe anyone buys that thing, I really can’t. It has no place in the Pontiac line at all.
Second, build a cooler GTO. I love horsepower, and 400 is a nice big number. But it looks like an early 2000’s Grand Prix on steroids. Build one the Ram Air 6 or something very much like it. It hurts to see the GTO lose to the Mustang in the Car and Driver showdown by 1 point because the Mustang looks cooler. Never mind its packing 100 LESS horsepower.
Third, offer manual transmissions! Why can’t the Grand Prix or Bonneville have a manual? The ones you have aren’t strong enough? Build a better 5 or (even better) 6 speed. Maybe I’m old fashioned or something, but when I jump on the pedal, I want to row through the gears. Its just more fun to drive that way. The Grand Prix goes from a Supercharged V6 to a Northstar now and its still an auto. When I’ve got 300 horsepower and car from the “Driving Excitement” company, I want my stick shift.
Fourth, as a Fiero GT owner, I LOVE the Solstice. Please give it more power. The race Cavalier made 1000 horsepower with the Ecotech, so the least you can do is give the turbo or super charged Ecotech more than just over 200 horsepower.
Horsepower is finally the name of the game again, and if Pontiac wants to compete, they need to do better than play catch-up with the competition. Foreign and domestic compact, midsize, and full size cars are all coming with 250+ horsepower now, so if you want people to stay with Pontiac, you need to make a good case for it.
One last thing, stop introducing the base model first! For whatever reason, GM seems to like to introduce a new car by only offering the slowest, cheapest, least refined model first, then bringing out the big guns later. How can you possibly hope to build excitement for a new model by giving the public a rental car first and promising something better in a year or two? By the time the vehicle thats worth the hype shows up, everyone’s already written off the model and bought something else.
Mr. Lutz,
Pontiac is on the right track in my opinion, but They have a ways to go. Pontiac has always been GM’s performance division. But they really have been that in words only. The new GTO is a step in the right direction, now it just needs to be more eye appealing. I look at what Dodge has become, and that is where Pontiac needs to be.
I love the Solstice and I am excited about what I see in that vehicle, but what about Pontiac having the Speedster/VX220 here in the US? There are many mid engine fans that bought the Pontiac Fiero back in the 80’s. Just when GM got the car right it was axed. There are 10,000 + members at http://www.fiero.nl that would love to see the return of a mid-engine Pontiac.
Any chance of bringing back the rans Am, or a mid engine two seater car similar to what the Fiero was?
Any chance of bringing back the Trans Am, or a mid engine two seater car similar to what the Fiero was?
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to reapeat it…
When the Fiero was released in late 1983, the big problem was that it was underpowered. Unfortunately Pontiac seems to be repeating that same mistake among others with the Solstice. A 170HP engine just won’t cut it, and fixing it the next model year (as Poniac did when they finally offered the V6 the next year in the Fiero) would likely have similar results.
The other major problem is price. While $20,000 doesn’t sound so bad to most compared to other cars in it’s class, it’s still a far cry from the Fiero’s base price in 84 of $7999 (just over $14,000 today after inflation). The price is simply too much for what you get, and won’t convince people to not just spend a couple extra thousand on a Miata.
Even with the RWD setup, it won’t handle like a mid-engine car. Pontiac Excitement shouldn’t just be about straight-line performance, it should also be about handling characteristics, even at the expense of a smooth ride. If I wanted a smooth ride, I’d buy a Buick. I want a performance driving machine at a great price, but nothing in or upcoming in the Pontiac line seems to quite meet that criteria.
If/when you finally decide to produce another mid-engine car, I’ll be first in line to put down a deposit. Until then, I’ll still be driving my Fiero.
Oh and on the subject of the GTO, the original was relatively cheap, this one is not. That and the looks are what is killing sales.
I have to admit that Pontiac has really come a long way in the past few years. For a while I was starting to think that it would never get its “performance division” title back. First off, I’m 19 and would be considered a youth that would normally be interested in this “tuner craze”. Even though many foreign cars (Skylines, 300ZX’s, etc) appeal to me I’m die-hard GM. Right now I own a 2000 Camaro Z28 and a 1988 Fiero GT. IMO GM is/has been way behind every other car manufacturer for the past 20+ years. Instead of producing something ORIGINAL GM lets other companies pioneer for them, then they start turning out copies to try and pry a little profit from other companies. Once sales slack off a bit a car is re-badged under another division with nothing different besides new sheetmetal and decals. In order for GM to catch up with the foreign competition they need to discard the old worn-out traditions and try some new things to surprise potential buyers. It is getting better, the Solstice is refreshing and some new technology is being used (DOD, etc). However, I think one huge irony is how Pontiac is the “performance” division while Chevrolet has the best performing car in the company. For GM to overcome they should allow Pontiac to make a car better than the ‘Vette (higher price too?). The new GTO is a good first step but it doesn’t have nearly as nice styling as the corvette. It looks just like every other pontiac that has come out for the past 15 years. The first time I saw one I confused it with a Grand Prix, that’s sad. A sports car should never be confused with a economy sedan/compact. IMO the Fiero was the last original car to come out of GM. Even today there is hardly anything like it on the road besides Ferrari’s/Lotus’s etc. The car was a truely unique with its plastic body panels, space frame, mid-engine design, etc. It was the first affordable mid-engine economy/sports car, and it was the first/last American production mid-engine car. GM (Pontiac) should really make a new mid-engine sports car with a powerful V8. I’ve heard about the new 5300 V8 that’s designed for FWD front engine cars (GP mostly) and a 6-speed automatic being made by GM and Ford that would fit nicely transverse-mounted ahead of the rear axle. I’ll never buy a Corvette because I’ve always thought of true super cars as being mid-engine (Ferrari’s etc) and the price for a front-engine (even if it is 50/50) bland Corvette is way out of my range.
Mr. Lutz
I am pleased that you are taking the time to listen to your customers on this one. I think one type of car that you should look into again is a serious effort at a mid engine sports coupe. Not so much bringing the Fiero back, but something more economical and entry level, with the possibility of an SS version using the new 5.3 V8.
Not something that is chasing the styling and coat tails of the imports, but a car that can set the pace for a change.
The mid level cars coming out of Pontiac right now just seem to be chasing the tail of the imports and doesn’t have the quality or performance of the old Pontiac.
Pontiac needs to make it’s presence felt on the track angin, and a small powerful car with a great suspension would do that.
Anything would be better than the Vibe (poor styling and lack luster performance) or the Sunfire (ugly as well, and far from a safe car for entry level buyers) There is so much more Pontiac could be doing, the Bonneville is great but too large for a sporty car, the G6 is alright, but what is with the roof? It still reminds me of a cheap Honda knock off, no matter what engine is in it.
The Firebird is gone, and that was the flagship, something needs to be built to fill in that spot, something powerful and nimble enough to run with the Corvette.
I think having someone with your mindset heading up GM is a great thing, we just need you to get it DONE. Its a good thing that designers have woke up from their deep slumber of the 90s and are drawing some real works of art. I just hope that the beancounters will wake up from their fantasy world and realize that you MUST take risks to attain unparalleled success. With the great designers today, we’ll continue to see fantastic works of art at car shows. But until GM Corporate realizes that you can’t push every concept car through a preset mold, GM’s market share will continue to dwindle.
I drive a V8 Fiero. I think that is the boldest car Pontiac has delivered in the past 2 decades. Now if that car isn’t considered “out of the box” then nothing is. Do that again, don’t let the beancounters get ya, and you’ll see all age groups flocking to you.
Hi Bob,
You said “GTO was never supposed to look like the old GTO”. Well, Retro is in. The 05 Mustang is a hit, the updated looks great. To bad Pontiac did not have this idea for the GTO. I agree the performance is getting better.
Maybe in the future, the Fiero might be brought back as an updated retro. Many still love them. The choice to kill it off was also a shame. The 88’s were made right.
The 10,000+ members of the http://www.fiero.nl site are praying for this to happen. At the car shows I take my Factory stock Blue 87 GT w/1,700 miles to show people an example of a two seater that still turns heads today.
Bob…some feedback on your comments about Pontiac and the new GTO.
First…”Many people complained about it because it didn’t look anything like the old GTO.”
I’m not so sure most folks wanted it to look like the old GTO. The problem is, it looks too much like it belongs in Pontiac’s lineup from the late ’90s. The hoodscoops are a nice touch, but not enough — it needs more. Maybe something in the taillights and headlights (stacked lights would look nice), and maybe a split grille that echoed the rectangular shapes of the ’60s and ’70s. The current twin kidney openings have worn out their welcome. Look at the re-style Ford gave the Mustang in 1994. At least it had the door side scoops, 3-lense tailight treatment, and a twin cowl dashboard that tied the car to earlier models, yet it still was able to look fresh and modern. Call it the “heritage treatment.”
As for experiencing the “feel” of the old GTO (”When you put your right foot into it, it’s supposed to give you the same visceral thrill as the old one, its V8 launching you from a standing start”), anyone can get “the feel” driving a 1993-2002 F-body, as well as a 2005 SSR, Hemi 300C, or the upcoming Hemi Charger. The “feel” you are trying to deliver is not exclusive to the GTO.
But this quote is what really gets me:
“All the GTO enthusiasts out there… their affection was not based upon the car’s looks, but upon the driving experience.”
What the hell are you talking about? Which GTO enthusiasts have you been talking to? Maybe this is your really lame attempt to shift the blame for the really lame looks of the new GTO. I certainly hope you don’t consider an “enthusiast” as only being one who has “driven” an old GTO. I’ve never driven a GTO (I was 4 years old when my parents owned a 1965 convertible GTO), but I consider myself an enthusiast, not only of the GTO, but Pontiacs in particular. I also own a 1974 Trans Am (with the 400 cube engine), which my Dad purchased new.
As well, I suppose all those enthusiasts that have taken their cars to the GTOAA Nationals, as well as various other car shows across America, might just disagree with you. I don’t think they invest research, blood, sweat, tears, time, and money into restoring their GTOs simply based on the driving experience.
The GTO nameplate belongs on a muscle car, whether from 1964 or 2004, and NOT on a BMW fighter. If you want Pontiac to go after BMWs and Acuras, then fine. But don’t reach into the past and grab a legendary nameplate, and then brush off the very people who have made the car, and the GTO name, what it is today. You had a built-in market for a new GTO that had been waiting years for the return of the first muscle car.
You blew it.
A $25,000 (or cheaper) competitor to the new Mustang is what we need. Give us a real muscle car. One with a kick-ass engine and tranny, and manual mirrors/locks/windows and cloth seats. Leave the leather-lined interior and power-operated conveniences to the Buick crowd.
-Chris
The Solstice needs a HARDTOP VERSION! Please do not let this great idea of a car go to waste like Toyotas MR2 because it only comes in Roadster format. Many people have stated the desire for a hard top and that interest will be lost if there is not one. Take a poll, you will see the results.
Hello Mr. Lutz,
From my view as a teenager, I see pontiacs as coming out bland. What do you have that is going to draw the group of tuners my age away from there Integras and Civics? Nothing that I have seen would be able to do this. I am a sucker for large amounts of power, but if it doesn’t look attractive to me than I will never peak my head out from under the hood. The GTO is a great example, I love that you are bringing back this car, but where is the looks that make me remember everytime I see that car. I currently drive a 1986 Fiero SE, and I love it. It’s styling isnt close to anything else I have seen, and everytime I see another one it leaves a lasting impression. Where could you find that happening in the car that your putting out now. Minus the Aztec of course, because it stands out because it reminds me that I will never own one. Sparking creativity in your buyers should be what you are shooting for. As one of the previously stated 10,000+ members at http://www.Fiero.nl, I can say that the fiero still does this even after it was axed around 16 years ago. The fiero sparks excitement and creativity in this wonderful group of people. If your not sure what I am talking about then I suggest that you check that out sometime and see what pontiac excitement is all about. Even though I feel that things could be improved, I am glad that you are trying to move pontiac in the right direction and I hope that you keep up the good work.
Kevin
Hey Lutz,
In my opinion, you are ruining Pontiac.
I am a huge Pontiac fan; I own a Pontiac, I praise Pontiac, and I live Pontiac. The walls of my den where I draw my own designs of Pontiacs and ponder about how you screwed Pontiac and what would make Pontiac a better brand like it was in the past is draped in Pontiac posters with many scale models. I probably know more about Pontiac’s history than you. Quite simply, I’m not a fan of you and your work.
Now here is the problem… First off, the G6 is a total dissappointment. The design looks like it came from some random Japanese automaker. Besides the twin port grill with the arrowhead between them, it looks nothing like a Pontiac. I’ve seen Toyotas that look more like a Pontiac than the G6… that says alot. Another problem with it is the interior… What were you thinking? The center stack looks so out of whack that it’s ridiculous. Also, the steering wheel is a Malibu clone basically and is a disgrace to be in a Pontiac. Here’s a suggestion.. Why don’t you take the interior out of the G6 concept and slightly modify it for production? Another problem with it is the performance. It is lack-luster. The Grand Am could outhandle, outaccelerate, and probably outbrake it. It’s ridiculous. Closing suggestion: Take some weight off the G6, Add the 2.8L, 3.2L, and 3.6L DOHC engines out of the CTS and remove the 3.5L and upcoming 3.9L pushrods, but, keep the 2.4L DOHC engine. Next, put some better shocks, struts, and springs on it to improve the below average handling. After that, shrink the headlights down a bit since they are HUGE and completly redesign the inner componants and design of the headlights. Then differentiate the fascias, rockers, spoilers between the trims. Currently all trims look the same which is total no-no in the land of Pontiac. After that, put quad exhaust tips on it like a true Pontiac. Next, redesign the rear to look more like a Pontiac and less like a Neon and Cobalt. Then, take the rear and like shorten it height wise. It looks like an offroader because of the suspension and just the design. After those, make the changes to the interior like I suggested earlier. Add REAL aluminum trim pieces and offer more livelier colors like: black/med gray two tone, med gray/light gray two tone, very light tan (almost white is color) monotone, and a very light tan/ taupe-ish color two tone. Also, I forgot to mention the need of a 5 or 6-speed manual trans available on every trim level. Next… completely redesing the coupe and conv. The rears look horrendous. Finally… change the name to Grand Am. No one likes G6 as it has no meaning and no soul.
Next problem is the lack of a compact car. If you think the Vibe is good-enough then you ought to be fired right now. Pontiac needs a coupe and sedan compact car whether it be on delta or kappa. It must not be a Cobalt clone either.
Another problem is the GTO. Yes, it is a great performer, but the styling is outdated and boring. My only suggestion is to start over for zeta and continue the design on the the Ram Air 6 concept.
The next problem is the lack of a Fiero. Many other Pontiac fans can vouch with me here. While the Solstice is great, it is too bolbous and cartoonish. It is also a front engine roadster which is nothing like a mid engined fastback. Just give us one that is affordable as in cheaper than the Solstice or atleast only slightly more expensive. It must be like the original where at the time it was one of the safest vehicles only trailing Vovlos which as you know are renown for the safty innovations and such. It was also almost as fast as a Corvette and could handle as well and in some circumstances, better than the Corvette. Please give us one and soon.
Next up is the Grand Prix and Bonneville being merged into one car, the G8. No.. those are two different cars with two very different personalitlies. If you must, atleast drop the stupid alphanumerics thing. G8.. what is that supposed to mean? Generation 8? 8 cylinders? All it says to me is lack of originality.
That brings me to the next and perhaps final problem… the latest naming schemes. Drop the whole alphanumerics thing. It is stupid and conveys images of some minor korean branded car where the maker knows nothing about real cars and produced a real doosy. Switch back to real names that actually meant something. Names that were racing inspired like Grand Am, Grand Prix, Bonneville, Lemans, and Trans Am.
Until you start to use common sense when running Pontiac, I will never be a fan of years and could care less if you were to magically dissappear from the face of the earth. I love GM… but that was before you came along and I am being pushed further and further away from GM. Here’s a nice closing thought: Only true Pontiac fans know what Pontiac needs… and you, Mr. Lutz, are not. Sorry for my harshness, but it’s the cold hard truth.
Cory Wolfe
Mr. Lutz,
I love performance cars. I probably always will. I really love my 1986 Fiero GT, but I haven’t seen a Pontiac since then that is worthy of replacing it. This new Solstice isn’t it. It is just a Miata with an arrowhead. You aren’t giving it enough power (cough, Fiero, cough). I’m sure you won’t make a new Fiero, but I’ll state my case anyway.
I know it has a bad reputation. So what? You don’t fix reputations by ceasing production and trying to forget. You WORK ON IT. I know it’s too late for the original, but what about bringing it back? I know, you just started the solstice. So what? It will never rival the fastest cars in the world.
Pontiac needs something…big.
Why not bring the VX220 turbo over as the Fiero and have a Pontiac that would contend with the corvette/M3/Porsche crowd? Even more important, you could actually change people’s perception of the car. You might also finally raise Pontiac back to it’s rightful place as the Performance division of GM.
I guarantee I’ll buy one if you do.
I want a high-performance car. I can’t get the VX220 here in the US. I don’t want a Corvette. I want Pontiac to impress me again. Can you do that?
My first nice car was a ‘66 Catalina coupe. A huge car by today’s standard, but looked great. After seven years of ownership, I replaced it with a ‘72 Vega GT wagan and you know what a disaster that was. After three years and a new engine, courtesy of GM, that was replaced by a Chevy Nova 4 door sedan with a 350 CI 4bbl. A special order on my part and probably one of the best cars I had owned. I gave that to my father-in-law and he drove it for several more years until the rust gods got to it. Then I got an 83 6000LE 2 door coupe. An ok car that had many leaky components.
My next new car was an ‘87 Fiero GT five speed( I couldn’t afford then or now a Corvette) and I loved the car and still have it. A truly fun car to drive. So much so that in ‘96 I bought a used 88GT which I have added a larger engine and 4 speed OD automatic transmission and still have that. Also a fun car to drive which can get 30 mpg.
Too many of the GM cars look like everyone elses car. I have a ‘99 Buick Regal GS which looks like a Pontiac or even some Hondas or Toyotas. GM hasn’t had any innovative or distinctive designs since the Fiero. The Solstice may, The Saturn Sky may fit the need, but like Chrysler when the PT cruiser came out, a hot looking under performing car, the dealers tack on ADP fees making the cars turning off buyers like myself. I see nothing in GM’s lineup that would replace my Buick.
Mr. Lutz,
I read everything about the GTO and it’s performance. I’ve also looked at it’s styling. To me it looks like a RWD Grand Prix with a hefty price tag. Pontiac design teams have it in their minds that bulbous looking cars sell. When I look at the new Sky vs. the Solstice, the Sky has the look of a aggressive sport car which is what the GTO lacks for all its hype. Don’t get me wrong GM has come a long way to trying to provide a performance car. Without any major cost to make changes to the platform maybe this styling package would look good for a GTO Judge with improvement performance and handling.
(About half way down the page you can see a good example for the GTO Judge plus some other thought s on the GTO.)
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20040710-1-038257.html
I’ve always been a car enthusiast. Even when GM killed the Pontiac Fiero, it had a good deal of potential as a sports car to compete against Toyota and Nisson. (The car still has a large following today because of its versatile design with modified cars sporting 5.7 liter V8’s and Super Charged 3800 engines.) This is a classic example of where GM dropped the ball. Please don’t make the same mistake with the GTO. Improve it, make it better.
There was a day when I could look down the road and I could tell you who made what car from a distance. I can’t do that anymore because almost all cars are cookie cutter look alikes anymore to reduce cost to GM and other car companies. I understand market utility and production cost which affect this, but if GM is going to hype a car it needs to truly follow through with its ideas and stop teasing people with what could be.
I’ve always been a GM man, maybe because my father worked all his life for your company. Lately the styling and performance at Chrysler have me more intrigued than GM. MR. Lutz please make things happen and give us a true sports car from Pontiac, make me proud again of GM.
HI Bob, I think that If GM made another mid-engine car, everyone would be all over it, especially since the tuner market is such a big hit right now. People would be impressed with it bbecause it would be different from RSX’s and civics that we see everyday, plus you guy’s never gave the Fiero the chance that it derserved. You guys got it right an dropped it, A cheap mid-engine car that can compete with the corvette would be a huge hit in the tuner and sports car market.
Olaf
Two words “Pontiac Speedster”.
Mr Lutz,
Thank you for at least trying to revive the excitement in the Pontiac line. But the GTO is a big disappointment to me. I have owned an 88 Trans Am a 97 Trans Am and would love to add a GTO to that list but the drab looks are complete turn off. Please release the Ram Air 6.
Also, why not another mid-engine car? The Opel Speedster is a natural to be brought over as a Pontiac. I would had much preferred that to the (again) boring styling of the Solstice. As the owner of two 88 Fieros that are driven regularly, I can tell you that I prefer driving them such that I would not consider a Solstice a worthy replacement.
The Sky has more promise but please give it more power. Thanks.
-Jonathan
I am 65 years old and raised in a Pontiac family. My dad had one on order for 3 years during the war and got the first one in N.C. after the wwII was over. I see not only Pontiac but all of GM cars as kind of bland -all look alike-type of styling. I suggest you “steal” some designers from Chrysler as they have somme style. Also Pontiacs have ALWAYS had their roofs too high to look good. After you build an “out of sight” realy nice looking sporty car just do as usual and drop a 4 cyl or even a 2 cyl engine in it.Then have a roll back floorboard so the driver and passengers can help push it along Fred Flintstone style. The gereral public is looking for a stylish stand-out car with plenty of power with decent gas milage. The Soltist and the Satern Sky are a start but need more power to compete in the real world. Build something similar to the Fiero with quality and you will have trouble keeping up production to meet sales.
Hello Mr Lutz,
I thank you for your great work. I’m a big fan of yours. I truly believe history will remember you as the man who saved GM. And I believe this blog will hopefully lead to great changes in how GM designs vehicles.
Regarding the GTO.
Now I’ve been a long time fan of the Monaro, and I was glad to hear that you were bringing it to the US. (As an American, it’s always painful to find great cars offered by Ford or GM that are not available in the US) For one, the interior quality is heads and shoulders above any other domestic car currently available–this includes luxury brands. However, there were two main issues with the execution: the GTO name, and the styling.
(1) Whenever a car company resurrects a classic name such GTO, it should be aware of the responsibility that comes with it. Even if they are unrealistic, people will have a lot of expectations. (I believe Chrysler will make the same mistake with the new Charger).
(2) PLEASE MAKE THE RAM AIR 6. No matter how important car nuts may claim performance is to a car’s success, looks will always be #1. Given a choice between two cars of equal performance, the one with the better looks will always win. You can’t deny styling matters. I actually like the styling of the base Monaro. However, I can’t deny that it’s very bland for what it’s supposed to be. Given a choice between the base and the HSV Monaro, give me the HSV. The new GTO looks like old easily forgettable Grand Prix–minus the body cladding. For years Pontiac has produced eye sores and then they release an amazing performance car under an incredibly bland skin. Is there no happy medium? The new ‘05 hood scoops look like a tacky add-on that does nothing to make it look sexier or more aggressive. What is the solution? Make the Ram Air 6. The styling is perfect. It is bold and aggressive, yet clean and refined. Every element looks like it belongs, instead of being an after-thought. MAKE THE RAM AIR 6.
As for the Pontiac brand in general, I truly think it needs a new design direction. Right now, all I see are rehashed designs working within same fundamentally flawed Pontiac design theme/language. The new Saturns are great because they’re not restricted to the old flawed Saturn ‘design cues.’ Pontiac needs a corporate face. Pontiac needs a front fascia.
First off Mr. Lutz, I am very pleased with the direction that GM is heading. Personally i kinda get a kick out of reading all of these negative comments. I assume that your position is a very stressful one and it must be great to get blamed for everything. I’m on your side here Mr Lutz, there is a fine line between constructive criticism and just plain ignorance. I’ve noticed that a lot of people just never seem to be happy…personally, i’m happy I don’t drive a Kia. As the proud current owner of 3 different GM cars I can say that I am happy with the vehicles I drive just because they were exactly what I was looking for and GM delivered that to me. One of those vehicles is an 86 Fiero GT, I’m sure everyone has noticed the growing number of posts here by fiero owners. This is because of a post at a very popular forum that I am proud to be a member of. However, I will say that I am a bit surprised (most polite word i could think of) at some of the comments made by my fellow fiero owners. the fiero is a great car and IMO is a blast to drive but I think that we need to realize that the Solstice IS the new fiero (or at least the closest thing). I love my car just as much as the rest of you but you have to realize that car makers evolve…and i think that a lot of people have complained that GM hasn’t done this in the past. Like I stated before, just be happy that we are not all driving Kia’s…no offense to Kia owners, just my personal opinion.
oh yah bob, about that constructive criticism…drop a big block in the solstice
im a young driver (21 years old) who has been a pontiac fan for years and i come from a pontiac/gm family and plan to be loyal as long as i can. as others have stated… pontiac has lost its “excitement”. i remember when firebirds were vicous and mean looking now we have happy fluffy looking grand prix’s and GTO’s and they are all starting to look like the same car… GTO= fwd version of the grand prix. it used to be that pontiac would take a chance with a car like the original GTO or a Firebird but now its just dead and lifeless compared to its once glory. At the moment im restoring and modifying a pontiac fiero gt its going to be cheaper and nicer than any gto out on the market and have much better performace… i know alot of people didnt like the fiero but its one of the last great pontiac cars right next to the last generation of firebirds. just my thoughts of a (hopeful) future customer.
I think that GM’s main issue over the past 2 decades has been not understanding why sales are plummeting. It’s been an endless cycle. American cars should be American cars, not Japanese, German or European clones. That is the reason you have Opel, Subaru and Saab. GM cars should look American, not be a blend-in bore like the Malibu, or the GTO. Give the cars the good old muscular look and stance, Get rid of that nasty extended bow tie (especially on the trucks, put some real fender bulges at the corners, widen the stance at the wheels so they fill out the fender, shrink the lights (it’s the sheet metal that’s eye catching, not the oversized eysore lights. Give the cars some clean flowing appealing lines. Along with the aesthetics, make us confident that they’ll go 200,000 miles like a Toyota or Honda or BMW. I don’t want to worry about my electrical system or head casket at 100,000 miles and don’t have to on a Toyota, but yet I try to remain loyal to this company, even though it costs twice as much, because you have to get a new less appealing car twice as often.
Bob,
Could you provide us with your personal assessment of the 1954 Olds F-88 that was auctioned this weekend at Barrett-Jackson?
Thanks
Mr. Lutz,
I have always hoped that at GM you would be able to do something about the dull and often tastless styling of almost every GM car. Your comment refering to the cars like the Ponitac Aztek as “angry kitchen appliances” is still my favorite. But what is going on with you guys? The Chevy MAXX looks like an ‘85 Toyota Corolla, the new Buick LaCrosse looks eerily like the now discontinued Ford Taurus. The Chevy SSR is ugly and HHR is not something I would want to be seen driving. The G6 conv looks like a Toyota Solstace conv. Where’s something exciting like the new Ford Mustang or GT? The Chrysler 300C? I’m rooting for the american auto industry, but you guys don’t seem to understand that people want cars that when they drive down the road, they feel “cool”. The Prius is kind of funky, but driving it feels cool. Scion is selling basically a box, but it is cool. What is it about your corporate culture that kills anything that might be cool? The new GTO may “feel” like a great car, but it has to look like a great car. My fear is you’re going in the direction of the last Firebirds, where you took a pretty good looking shape and kept tacking on rediculous plastic scoops and spoilers and crap until it looked like something from a bad video game. It is still beyond me why a company with GM’s resources can’t make cars as stylish and cool as the many of the foreign cars. I mean let’s get real. Hyundai is making better cars thatn GM right now and they look good too.
When is GM going to live up to the styling and excitement of the great cars of the 60s and 70s?
I’m tired of waiting.
Mr.Lutz
I like the GTO ,the interior is very nice and the styling isn’t to bad just needs a little flashing (chrome wheels, tasteful striping). The car goes like hell too which is great. What I don’t like is the Grand Prix that is one ugly car the previous generation was much better looking (eye of the beholder ,I know) but c’mon its really ugly, look at it. I can’t believe you like that and no two door – it was always a two door car. I know you will do something about it I have faith in you on this.
Dear Bob,
Thanks for working so hard to get the lead out at GM. I know that you can’t be the only one there leading this charge, but I’m sure it’s a lot of work.
As far as design with the Pontiacs go, I applaud the recent efforts of the team to make Pontiac more competitive and respectable.
However, when it comes to some models, I’m curious as to how well the Pontiac image will come through to the customer over, say, the Chevrolet image. What I’m refering to is the treatment of the Pontiac Torrent and Montana SV6.
The Torrent is using a Chinese-built 3.4 V6 which dates back in architecture at least 15 years and makes less power than the 5 season-old Ford-built V6 Escape, for a vehicle that’s bigger and heavier. Why wasn’t the much more modern, smoother, more powerful and efficient 3.5L 200hp V6 used as standard equipment on the Torrent (and even Equinox)? Why isn’t there a more powerful engine option for the Torrent than 185? And why isn’t there more interior/exterior differentiation between the Equinox and Torrent? It would be great to see the 2.4 Ecotec four available on the base Equinox, with the 3.5 standard soon. And with the Torrent, a standard 200hp V6 with a more powerful option would be great to give it the distinction it needs as a Pontiac.
The next bit of curiosity I have is with the Montana SV6. I know that this is merely a stopgap update until the new Lambda architecture arrives late in the decade, and it looks to be an excellent and worthwhile update of a now 9-season-old van. But if total performance is really what the Pontiac division is after, why is the Montana’s only engine 200hp when almost everybody else in the segment has 30-50 more? If the 3.6 VVT V6 can fit in its platform mate, the Rendezvous, couldn’t it fit in the Montana (and especially the Terraza) as an option?
I am sure that the decisions that were made about the preceding to models weren’t all yours to make, but I’m still curious about the mentality behind them.
I applaud the work you’ve done with the Solstice and GTO. And I am glad that the GTO is a quality all-around vehicle. I’m also sure that it was brought to this country on a now 13 season-old platform as a stopgap measure until a more wholistically-designed Zeta-based GTO arrives. It’s a good job in its own right. I’d like to see a convertible version, though, along with more visual excitement.
I’d also like to see a cleaner Grand Prix, a new Kappa-based compact sports coupe/sedan priced under the Vibe and called Tempest, and a better, more cost competitive Bonneville.
Again, thanks Bob, if you’ve read this. You’re doing well so far. I have many questions about Buick, my favorite brand, and the decisions that have been made about it, too. But I’ll wait until you discuss it.
-Rhett
Mr. Lutz,
First, Thank you for giving us the chance to make ourselves heard.
Second, Build the Ram Air 6. It’s freakin’ beautiful! I think it is the car that the GTO fans have been waiting for.
Some observations? Sure. Why not…
The Holden Monaro, in US trim, would have been much more believeable as a Chevelle. The Chevy fans would have eaten it up. It just *looks* like a Chevy. And it has a “Chevy” engine.
Unlike most of the previous comments, I actually like the G6, although I haven’t driven one yet. It looks like a 9/10ths scale version of the 97 Grand Prix, which I think is much more attractive than the current version.
The Solstice is cool, but it really needs to be produced as a coupe as well. You’re limiting your market, otherwise. Some folks who drive/park in the city will refuse to buy a ragtop just for security reasons. Aside from that, the Solstice coupe concept really reminds me of the old Corvette-based Cheetah race car. Not a bad thing at all.
Speaking of the Solstice… It’s a cool car. I might actually consider buying one if it’s made available as a coupe. But… Ya’ wanna know what would make me camp out in front of the local Pontiac dealer? How about a new mid-engined two seater! (Yes. Another Fiero fan.) I understand the risks of releasing another car with the Fiero name. I recognize that it’s probably not going to happen, but the concept was sound, as the many faithful Fiero owners (I also own two 88s) will attest. Just give it the chance it deserves, and don’t let the bean-counters get to it first. And please make it available with an honest-to-God twin cam V6. The Fiero guys have been building such cars for years. (I would also encourage you to check out http://www.fiero.nl and see what folks have been up to.) Think how good it could be with GMs engineering expertise backing it up.
Above all, Thanks for being a car guy. GM sorely needed you.
The GTO has got to look as good as it runs! I know a guy that would have bought one if, in his words, it didn’t look like your average rental car. He is now looking at a new Mustang.
Pontiac needs a full-size rear-wheel-drive car with a V8 engine, Call it Catalina.
If Pontiac is supposed to be the performance division, then abandon front-wheel-drive ASAP. As a performance car platform, front-wheel-drive sucks. Oldsmoble learned this the hard way when they tried to compete with the European and Japanese performance cars with the front-drive Aurora. It was like bringing a knife to a gunfight. That’s what killed Oldsmobile. They didn’t have the hardware to do the job and in that situation, no amount of creative marketing can save you.
In the past, I have owned 1960s GTOs, Firebirds and ’60s and ’70s Catalinas. I haven’t bought a Pontiac since they went to front-drive. I have driven front-drive rental cars and hated every one of them. Leave front-wheel-drive to the econoboxes and people that don’t know how to drive anything else.
Bob,
I like the direction GM appears to be heading, although I wish it was heading there at a faster pace! The Kappa platform with the Sky and Solstice look great! I particularly like the Solstice and have followed it since the 2002 NAIAS concept.
Offering up other sporty models such as the Cadillac V series, Cobalt SS, and others also is a great move. It helps to make GM more than an appliance store!
What I would really like to see is more styling differentiation for Pontiac and more manual transmission cars. The Hardtop convertable G6 is great, but why is the coupe the only G6 getting the 6-speed manual with the 3.9L engine? It should at least be available in the convertible, too, if not all 3 G6 cars!
Also, where is GM’s all-wheel-drive car? Solstices and GTOs are great fun, until winter strikes. Again using the G6 as an example, I would love to see an AWD version, especially with the manual trans and 3.9L motor, something very sporty and functional for 4 seasons, such as an Audi A4, or Subaru Legacy GT turbo.
Keep the good stuff coming!!
I have been a Pontiac fan since my Dad brought home a ‘59 Bonneville. I have had, over the years, 4 GTOs, 3 Firebirds, 3 GPs and a ‘65 2+2. They had great looks and performance and each one was affordable!
Pontiac needs help to get back its ‘performance’ and ‘excitement’ image. The GTO could have been GREAT but it wasn’t. A good car to be sure, but not GREAT. Most agree the looks are at best so-so (’04 version), the performace was OK but not WOW (too heavy — the A4 had problems getting out of the 14s in the 1/4 mile) and the price was way too much. They didn’t really start moving until the rebates kicked in and the discounts brought it down to the 25-27K range…
Why does the ‘performance’ division get the same drivetrain as most of the other divisions? Eample: the G6 will have the same as the Malibu. It will cost more and the performance will be almost the same. In some cases, the Malibu will perform better because they tend to weigh less. Other than looks and a higher price, not much sets the G6 apart from the Malibu. The GP will wind up with almost the same guts as the new Impala and MC. All will have the 303 hp V8 (in SS and GXP form). If the past holds true, the GXP will cost more and will probably be out-performed by the MC. Not good for the performance division.
Pontiac needs to have the HP edge to set it apart and bring back its image, not just a different look on the same stuff. They need to keep the price DOWN as it is getting beyond the point most people are willing to pay for a Pontiac. Returning Pontiac to its past glory can be done but it needs to have the backing of the GM brass.
That Pontiac GTO Ram Air 6 is one awesome looking car. Why don’t we in the UK have meaty muscle cars like this?
Good on you, Mr. Lutz, for taking the Monaro to the U.S. It’s a great car with classic and subtle styling that is an icon in Australia. It’s just a pity that those scoops were added to the bonnet – a bit too much XA-XC Ford there. It’s a real pity that others seem to think it needs to be “riced up” or a replica of the original GTO for it to be considered.
To those who are knocking the GTO – until you have owned and/or driven one, how can you give a qualified opinion? Saying it doesn’t have enough plastic hanging off it just doesn’t cut it.
Mr. Lutz, when are we going to see the LS2 in Commodores, and are you going to build the Torana with LS2 and TTV6 options? Please?
It’s a Holden, without all the Holden excitement.
Drop Pontiac altogether and give the Holden guys/gals what resources Pontiac had.
I’m also enjoying the changes Buick and Saturn are making, glad to see GM finally caught on.
Mr Lutz — I’m a huge fan, but the new GTO is a godawful abomination — I know you guys can do better than that!
Very cool site, Mr. Lutz.
Thanks for even considering reading some of our thoughts from time to time.
Myself, I consider a very devoted GM owner: ‘95 Impala, ‘96 Impala, ‘96 Blazer, ‘97 C1500, ‘02 Camaro, ‘04 Monte Carlo Supercharged, all currently parked in my driveway or garage.
I kinda think Chevy is wrecking the style of the M/C for ‘05, though, what with eliminating the body moldings and really confusing model names, i.e. LS, LT. But that missing molding makes it appear kinda cheezy to my eyes. They probably could advertise it better, as well. I still meet people that are surprised Chevy still makes a coupe and this was the case with my ‘01 Monte, as well.
Anyways, I am really fond of the ‘05 GTO. Frankly, the hood never really bothered me but I couldn’t stand the true dual exaust dumping from the left corner. The ‘05 looks great from the rear and the hood openings look really well thought out.
Otherwise, I never had any issues with the ‘04. I think the ’04’s biggest problem was the darn dealers started trying to gouge buyers and, being the car guy you are you know we sit around on Friday and Saturday nites and discuss this stuff. Well as soon as word of overcharging got out, I think we enthusiasts walked out. And of course like old hens, we started looking for reasons to pick on a fine product.
Oh well, it’s a darn shame a good product and GM had to suffer because of its dealer body.
Anyways, I’m going to try to trade my Monte on an ‘05 GTO. If the dealers play by the rules, it’ll be my first Pontiac since 1965.
Thanks for the opportunity to write and I’m so glad an enthusiast [you] are at the helm.
Rob Johler
Bob, sometimes I find it hard to believe that the same person who totally transformed Cadillac is the person that’s been ruining Pontiac. If Pontiac wants to be the performance division (as they have always been), it’s time for some cars that perform, and leave the rest to their other brands.
Let me start by saying the GTO and the Solstice are the only two vehicles in Pontiac’s lineup that truly live up to the Pontiac name. I LOVE the Solstice…don’t listen to the dash-strokers or the people picking on the styling. It’s a good car, and you’ll always find people to pick on the small stuff.
The GTO is great, too, but it needs a little styling (I don’t mean big flashy Trans Am side vents and Ram Air and big spoilers and swoopy body lines, I just mean something a little less plain). The concept posted above is a great start, maybe tone it down a bit for production, though. And it needs to go on a diet. Please, for the 2007 GTO, find some places for it to lose weight. There’s no reason that it needs to be 325 lbs. more than a Mustang.
A performance division has absolutely zero need for a minivan. I don’t care how “tough” it is, it’s not a Pontiac, and it’s not performance. If you want a “tough minivan,” give it to GMC. Same idea with the Torrent. … I have nothing against the Torrent/Equinox on a personal level, it’s a good vehicle, but it’s not a performance vehicle. It doesn’t perform off-road, it doesn’t perform on-road. If Pontiac wants an SUV, either give it a big engine or give it a TRUE 4×4 system.
The Grand Prix and Bonneville both need total overhauls. If they’re performance vehicles, give them RWD (or even AWD with a RWD torque bias like the Subaru WRX). The Bonneville needs to be big, luxurious, powerful, even a little Cadillac-like. Both of those vehicles could make a perfect 3-series and Chrysler 300 fighter, take their heritage as large performance vehicles and expand on it.
The G6 is WAY better than the Grand Am, but again, one problem…IT NEEDS PERFORMANCE! Where is performance if it maxes at 200 horsepower and still comes with only an auto? Give it a GTP trim level with a 3800 V6 and a MANUAL transmission. Price it under $26K and they’d be flying out of the showrooms.
The Vibe is NOT a performance vehicle. Heck, it’s not even American. It’s laughably slow (I’ve been in one), it’s got poor styling…it’s just not a Pontiac. Again, it’s not a bad vehicle, my friend’s mom loves hers because it’s got room for her stuff and it gets 30 mpg, but it’s not a Pontiac. Maybe it’s a Toyota, or a Chevy, or a Saturn, but it’s not “driving excitement.”
Now, you might ask…what does Pontiac need? Simple: Manual transmissions. Available on every vehicle (except the minivan, but I argue that it should be dropped anyway). Why do you think the imports are selling so well? Simple, you can get everything from a base model Honda Civic to a decked out Volkswagen Passat to a BMW 3-series with a stick shift. I realize that more and more people are going to autos, but there’s still a big market for people who want a good old manual transmission, and no matter how big the sunroof is on the G6, those people will not buy a Pontiac if they can only get a slushbox. Give them that, if Pontiac is to be the performance division.
The second obvious answer is an F-body, or at least something like it. If you do ever bring back the Camaro, bringing back the Firebird is essential. The GTO is nice, but not everyone can spend $32K on one. Something smaller, lighter, sleeker, and less feature-laden (give it a live axle if you must), styled more aggressively, and packing a big engine? That’s Pontiac performance. That’s what the Firebird was all about…and now it’s gone.
Pontiac also needs a tuner vehicle. I’m a muscle-car guy so I’ll never really get it, but it’s a huge market that Pontiac has completely missed the boat on (Sunfire doesn’t count). The Cobalt SS is a great place to start. Add unique Pontiac styling and Pontiac-only performance and style options.
Bob, I don’t expect you to listen to everything, or even anything that I have to say, but Pontiac is too good of a name to ruin like this. It’s time for Pontiac to be more American, more performance-oriented, more true to its roots, but still making vehicles that can compete in the modern market. It’s sad when a bunch of Germans at DaimlerChrysler can make vehicles more American and performance-oriented than Pontiac.
Oh yeah, and that “visceral thrill” that you get when you put your foot into the GTO? That’s what every Pontiac is supposed to have. It’s called “driving excitement”; too bad Pontiac forgot about that and decided to make minivans instead.
The problem with the new GTO is that it looks like my freind’s sister’s whimpy Grand Am. I mean, come on, give it some uniquness like you did with the Solstice. Make it stand out. Give it more of a mean athletic stance that demands respect and attention that will scare the guy in the Prius in the lane next to you. Give it engine and exhaust sound that does the same. And fix that uncompetitive price — drop it to at least $28K.
Bob,
As the recent buyer of a 2004 Cosmos Purple GTO, all I can say is thanks! I’m glad the ‘04 didn’t sell too well and I got the car for under $24K which is a steal for this machine. It does remind me of my old ‘72 Buick GS 455 but is quicker, quieter, faster, handles and ride much better and gets decent gas milage to boot.
Now that I have my Q ship, looks like the Ram Air 6 will liven up sales of this well built Aussie. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to get the ISO Rivolto, Jensen FF, Sunbeam Tiger, etc., etc., kind of vechicle I’ve always lusted after.
P.S., bring on the Holden cars like the Crewman UTE Cross 8.
Bob,
The above comments are totally on target. Time to get Pontiac Division back to its performance roots. GM has to quit giving dealers in every brand everything for everyone (minivans, SUVs, hybrids). If that’s the goal, dump the brands and call all GM products “GM.” Seems to work for Toyota.
Pontiac has NO business selling most of the junk they sell today as “Pontiacs.” The new Pontiac minivan is a perfect example. Pontiac has become some weird blend of Chevy and Olds/Buick. There is no excitement at Pontiac. There is just daily drivers and minivans. The GTO is a good start but for goodness sakes…if Pontiac is the performance dog in the pack, make it so. Currently, Pontiac driving excitement is a joke. Its sheer marketing BS perveyed by marketeers spouting off phrases like “wide track” and that kind of nonsense.
Bob, we are counting on you to stop the madness!! Focus on each brand and don’t give Pontiac lame minivans and rebadged Toyotas. The public is smarter than this! Build a decent GTO. A Tempest. A real Grand Prix. A tuner-type G6. AND GIVE US MANUAL TRANNYS!!!!!!
Mr. Lutz, I just asked the guys over at the Smallblock Engine blog to get GM to put the LS7 (not detuned at all) in to the GTO by 2007. Please do so and if you do, I promise to buy a black/6-speed GTO with the LS7 in April/May of 2007. If I’m lying, send me an email in June of 2007 with your mailing address so I can pay you $200.00.
Hi Bob,
Thought I’d give an update to you. I did purchass an ‘05 GTO on Tuesday the 7th. I traded in the ‘04 Monte Carlo.
My thanks to Community Olds, Pontiac, GMC in Wilmington, Ill., for their assistance. A really fun experience to buy a car from a real small dealer franchised in 1953. The dealer principle, George Sr., is still on site at 81 years old. His son, George Jr., 46, is the sales manager/general manager and on site drag-racing nut running a ‘67 GTO w/S.D. 455 w/hilborne injection. George Sr.’s bride of 52 years is the receptionist/secretary/operator and chief cook and bottle washer. Brother of George Jr. is the service director/manager/writer and sometimes senior shop tech. An entire family of gearheads very proud to be involved w/the GM product and corporation. This dealer still has fun with their business and helped me have fun as a car buyer. We stood around and talked cars while the new cars features were being explained to me.
Wow, this is a real nice car. Kinda makes me think of my ‘02 Camaro Z but way more refined — longer wheelbase, I.R.S., WAY nicer interior materials and ergos. I am amazed at how much smoother and how strong the mid-range is compared to the LS-1 in my Camaro, as well. I’ve only got 150 miles on it but I can tell already I’ll really enjoy this car. In my earlier post, I commented on style and I have not changed my opinion. This car certainly bears no resemblance to any Cavalier.
Anyways, nice job Bob ,kudos to you and GM for finally giving us back a rear-drive performance car — with a usable back seat, no less. Nits,I think spoilers are becoming a bit old and after seeing this car with it removed in a photo, I believe it unnecessary unless there is some aerodynamic function. I also believe the fuel tank had to be relocated to meet U.S. rear-impact standards and the trunk space that remains is pretty grim. I assume I’m not the only owner that has commented on this. But, that’s all I can find to snivel about and it didn’t stop me from buying. So again, thanks for a real nice car and I look forward to the next cool R.W.D. V-8 from the General.
Rob Johler
Dear Mr Lutz, if ever the firebird returns i have some suggestions for the car, first off i own a 95 formula firebird, and i love it but the problem is GM never fills in the wheel wells on their cars, so here you have a beautiful car with nice rims and big wheel wells why?..look at Nissan’s cars. all their products have wheel wells filled in and it looks great. As well the reason the Mustang outsold the F bodies was because Women would not drive them, they’re just too low. Although i like this about them, i am a 19 year old male. THe Firebird also had an interior that screamed plastic, i am extremely pleased with the interior of the new g6 as well as other GM products. Last but not least I feel that if F-bodies are brought back, design the doors like the Mazda rx 8 this will appeal to many people. And Finally the solstice is a beautiful car and i know we will be purcahsing them as soon as they come out, all this talk about a hard roof DON’t do that. The idea of an affordable roadster will be a hit. Thank You
Bob: Respectfully, you have the best kept secret in America. American’s perceptions have not caught up with the reality of your cars quality. Public relations, advertising, special events and Web promotions need to get American consumers to test drive your cars. Trial will lead to purchase. We need strong American car manufactures to lead us into the next century.
Mr. Lutz,
I’ve read all the post here to date. I’m a former ‘68 GTO owner. I drove an ‘05 and absolutely love the interior looks and feel. The power is respectable as well. The exterior looks…well let’s just say I saw an article in 2004 picturing quite a few new cars and didn’t even know there was a GTO present until I read the article. That would have never happened in the ’60s or ’70s. You want to make a winner…BUILD THE RAM AIR 6. Keep the interior you have now, give us a 500 hp option and then be ready to keep up with the demand!
I believe you have the GTO appeal backwards. I have owned a ‘67 GTO conv. for approx. 15 years now. It was the Look of the car first then the power which backed up the the Look that made me purchase this car when I first began looking for a muscle car.
I have been in several car meets, discussed cars with Jim Wangers, been in GTO clubs and I believe this is the prevailing idea with the GTO owners. Remember GTO owners are known for tweaking their vehicles for more power, so it must have been the Look of their veh. which attracted them not the power. And you may recall that the originals were affordable to teenagers.
Throw the 255 horse 3.6L from the CTS into the Solstice… (drool)
And give us some wider meats on the rear of the next GTO. In a few years when I can actually afford one it would be nice to have the traction to embarrass M3 owners at will.
Throw in the towel on the Aztedc. Be done with it.
Echoing sentiments above, I also believe that in order to market to driving enthusiasts, Pontiac — and GM in general — needs many more manual transmissions. The G6’s competitors, for instance, have manual transmission options…
Along that same line of thought, I’ve heard rumors of adapting the FGP F40 6 speed from the Saab 9-3 to the G6, and with the goal of improving the execution of that car. I offer a technical suggestion: Aside from the obvious change of bellhousing pattern, the 1st and 2nd gears MUST be changed in order for that transmission to be enjoyable to use with a high torque V6.
As implemented in the Saab, the transmission has a VERY short 1st gear and a LARGE RPM drop between 1st and 2nd gears. In fact, the 1-2 RPM drop on this transmission–marketed as a close ratio six speed–is LARGER than the 1-2 RPM drop of the wide ratio HM282 five speed of yesteryear. If used with an engine with strong torque delivery, this transmission would make unintended wheel spin common place, would make getting the car off the line smartly without wheelspin difficult, and would make the car virtually incapable of that most American of informal motorsports–the burnout contest! Worst of all, the large RPM drop between 1st and 2nd gears will put a very big damper on enjoying the experience of driving a well sorted manual transmission car.
As an owner of a Cadillac Northstar-powered Fiero with HM282 manual transmission, I am very familiar with the effects of a large amount of torque with a short 1st gear and wide 1-2 split. The only reason this arrangement is even marginally acceptable in the Fiero is that its mid-rear chassis layout gives it copious amounts of traction which the G6, being front wheel drive, will not have. The result is that the G6’s driving enjoyment at the everyday speeds at which it will most often be driven will be, in my opinion, severely compromised.
Please address this issue before the G6 GTP comes to market or you may find the car berated for niggling flaws in what I hope will be an otherwise worthy execution.
I remain cautiously optimistic regarding your ability to bring desireable cars out of GM… The more well executed cars you sneak past the bean counters, the more my faith is restored.
I enjoyed reading your book.
William H. Lucke IV
P.S. Since I’ve mentioned the Fiero, I might as well also suggest that since GM, with an abundance of advanced transverse driveline hardware, do with it what is only right an good–put it behind the driver! Perhaps the Kappa replacement in 5-6 years could be a flawlessly executed mid-engine platform… A Cadillac version could even have Northstar power…
Hi Mr. Lutz, GM has consistently lagged the industry in vehicle styling in recent years. One feature that is unique to many GM vehicles is the way in which the ‘A’ pillar ties into the front fenders. All competitors and a few GM vehicles sweep a curve through this joint to blend the windshield line and pillar into the rest of the vehicle. GM instead, typically finishes this area with a sharp corner that seriously detracts from the styling of the vehicle. Even the GTO Ram Air 6 shown in this Blog has a sharp corner at the ‘A’ pillar. Granted, ths feature alone does not determine the success of the vehicle’s styling, but I believe it does significantly contribute to the sleekness of the design and perceived execution of the vehicle. For example, the Equinox has received good reviews for styling and has a sweep in this area. On the other hand, the Malibu which uses a sharp break, has been criticized for its boring styling. I think this trend is consistent among other GM vehicles.
Redefining this part of the car could pay big dividends in the styling acceptance of GM vehicles.
Clearly this topic is one eliciting plenty of public opinion — something to consider. If anyone has actually read down this far through all of that public opinion, here’s what I’ve got to tell you:
GTO:
There are 3 steps to selling cars. Step 1 is exterior design — and the GTO just doesn’t have much to excite. This is the step that brings people into dealerships or even lets a car show up on the consumer’s radar screen. The stout-jellybean look isn’t bad, but it’s wrong for the GTO and is outdated anyway you slice it. If you can’t get people into dealerships with step 1, they will never know the success GM has had with step 2: interior experience (design/ergonomics/driving feel). This is what sells the car. And finally step 3: engineering, which leads to customer satisfaction of ownership. It also serves to snowball back into step one, because satisfied owners = free advertising and they will bring in more buyers. Long story short, the 2008 GTO had better nail step one.
Cadillac Eats Pontiac’s Lunch:
Let’s start at the beginning of this mess. Buick, Oldsmobile, Cadillac were all squatting on the same ground and Oldsmobile paid the ultimate price for it. The blame really lies with all three of these brands if you ask me. Yes, Oldsmobile did try to reform into an import fighter, but it was too late. You’d think the lesson of spreading out vehicle markets would have been learned but, well, here’s where things get interesting… Cadillac decided it wanted to be the best, with “The Standard of The World” moniker being nothing but a history lesson, and nothing was going to stand in its way, including other GM brands. Lincoln had a runaway success on its hands with the Navigator and Cadillac was caught with its pants down. Meanwhile, GMC *finally* had something to make its vehicles unique from Chevy trucks: exclusive luxury models like the Denali and Envoy. Cadillac said thank you, we’ll take that Denali, modify it by 2% and call it an Escalade. Cadillac ate GMC’s lunch and GMC has been scarcely more than a Chevy clone ever since. Next on the roster was to snatch Chevy’s flagship, the Vette, and build the XLR. Thankfully there are enough differences to avoid too much market overlap, but I can’t imagine Chevy is all that happy about it. Not to mention lifting the Z06 crown jewel, the LS6, and placing it in the CTS-V, that part comes later though. First Cadillac had decided it needed to be GM’s performance brand if it were going to compete, so Pontiac got pushed aside just like GMC before it.
At this point GM finally decides to invest in a modern, RWD platform–but only Cadillac can have it–as clearly it is the spoiled child in this story. Fast-forward to today, Chevy’s only RWD car is the Corvette which is above $40K. Pontiac has only the above RWD GTO, and waits on a niche market roadster as a savior vehicle. Cadillac still feels the need to hoard all the RWD chips with no less than 5 RWD models. Meanwhile Chrysler is selling RWD 300C’s, Magnums, and soon Chargers like hot cakes. How is the public supposed to take Pontiac seriously when it has nothing to offer against these competitors?
Saturn Eats Pontiac’s Lunch:
If it weren’t bad enough that the Cadillac golden child got Pontiac’s long sought after performance goods, Saturn inexplicably cut ahead in the lunch line when no one was looking. Poor Pontiac’s done its time waiting to be fed, and now they’re left to starve while Saturn jumps into Oldsmobile’s old slot. Saturn gets the edgy and aggressive (and more up-market) Sky while Pontiac goes soft with the Solstice. The G6 is more rakish than the Aura, but based on the show car, even if it’s interior is only half as nice, the Aura still makes the G6 look like a stripper base model–and the Aura is more aggressive too! Its 3.6L V6 with 250+ HP trumps even the top G6 GXP. If Saturn ousts Pontiac’s last semblance of identity there is only one thing left:
Pontiacs are for Girls:
Well, it seems this is the market they are headed for. The Solstice is about to be what the Miata was for Mazda when it was unveiled. Pontiacs aren’t the stuff of Smokey and the Bandit or Knight Rider, they’re given away on Oprah. The G6 is clean and free of cladding, but rather un-aggressive, apologetic, and bland. The big Bonneville is gone, but the spunky wagon-ish Vibe remains. Open top cars like the G6 hardtop convertible, and Solstice are fun in a kind of tropical way, a market that is more aimed at the female buyer (Miata, Beetle convertible, VW Cabrio, Sebring Convertible, Mercedes CLK convertible, etc.) Pontiac was supposed to be “The American BMW” according to Lutz when he began, but how is a 185 HP Torrent SUV (with an engine from China, no less) at all like an X5 or performance like in any way–or how is it American muscle for that matter? The Montana minivan doesn’t fit that either. Honda’s 250HP Odyssey is even too much for the 185HP (yes, same motor), minivan. Even when they try for performance, it seems half-hearted. The Bonneville GXP got the 275HP Northstar–why? Was 300 really too much to offer? It’s not like it’s that close to the 320 base Northstar V8 in Cadillacs–besides, those are RWD cars. The engine was already offered in 300HP FWD Cadillacs over 10 YEARS AGO!!!
Basically GM thinks so little of Pontiac that it is unworthy of ten-year-old technology that would cost nothing to implement (compared to the 275HP Northstar). Cadillac’s own 260HP, 3.6L V6 Northstar is only 15HP shy of the top Bonneville. Even the naturally aspirated V6s in the Avalon and Acura RL embarrass the GXP with 280HP and 300HP respectively. And the Grand Prix GXP? I won’t even compare that to a Cadillac. While it’s 290HP is greater than that of the larger Bonneville, it’s still less than the 303 HP put out by *the same engine* in the Impala SS and Monte Carlo SS. So apparently, by GM’s reckoning, Pontiac’s top of the line models should be detuned to make sure they are below Chevy. CHEVY!? Motors aren’t the only problem: the platform underpinning the G6/Saab 9-3/Malibu is not a driver’s car. The one engine that has some serious cajones is the GTO (never mind that the car’s from Australia). It is a good GT, but it fails to meet the handling levels set by the 1992-2002 F-bodies (Camaro/Trans Am)–which had LIVE AXLES! It rides infinitely better than them, but that just goes to show that performance seems to be the last thing Pontiac is about. It was the defining characteristic for so many years, as was styling. Now both seem to have taken a back seat, to family values.
Good Idea or Bad?
That said, selling a car to women is actually a very sound approach. You see, women are the deciding choice in over 50% of all car sales. I.E. they are the one’s buying more than half of all cars. With many, “That thing got a Hemi?” type ads directed at men, maybe someone should go for the women. Here’s the downside though, you can sell a woman a man’s car, but it’s much harder to sell a man a woman’s car. All bias and sexism aside, I’m talking marketing, image, and intended use here. Most women do not mind being seen in big trucks/SUVs, fast cars, etc. Fewer guys would like to be seen in Beetles, Miatas, or minivans however. So the soundness of this plan remains to be seen. To the nostalgic and performance car faithful, the old Pontiac will always be missed.
What Should They Do?
Okay, so anyone can criticize, but what do I actually think would be GOOD for Pontiac. First take a long, hard look at Infinity and study how they went from expensive Nissans to global players. First step is to challenge the 3 Series sedan. Do it with American flair of course, but do it right, or don’t do it at all. What about the CTS you ask? Well, it’s about the size (outside anyway) of the 5 Series and is not available in coupe form. Leave the really big, luxury cars to Cadillac. Besides, Cadillacs are loaded with techno features that make them heavy and expensive. That’s exactly where they belong. Make the Pontiac’s G35/M3 way nicer than a Chevy inside, but keep it light with thin sport seats, no wallet busting stuff that isn’t there for speed. So you say, GM can’t afford another RWD chassis. It can’t afford not to, if you ask me. Take the best engineers from Opel, Vauxhall, Saab, Holden, and Pontiac and develop a chassis that will work with RWD and AWD as well as with engines from 4 cylinders up to V8 and keep it around 3000lbs. With platform sharing and a dedicated usage in many countries, a business case could be made. When you think about it, all of these brands except Holden really need this vehicle to survive.
Second, stop making FWD cars. Just stop. The Grand Prix and Bonneville/G8/whatever should be RWD and/or AWD (if AWD, not FWD with rear assist when the fronts slip like in the Aztec/Montana/Torrent. I mean 100% RWD with front assist). Take a look at Chrysler’s RWD all-stars and don’t stop until you’ve got them beat on power, looks, everything. Don’t leave any question in people’s minds either, these cars have to be way above their Chevy brethren. Put the LS2 or it’s derivative in all of ‘em so that the world will love to tune ‘em. This will also differentiate between Pontiacs and the smoother Northstar Cadillacs. A little burble, a little cam: what’s a flaw in a Caddy is character in a Poncho or Chevy.
And third, if you produce vehicles like the Montana, the Torrent, the Vibe, do them in a cool way, like the Dodge Magnum. Sell the Montana as an upscale, AWD Minivan with unique sheet metal and chopped greenhouse compared to the Chevy/Saturn/Buick mates. Look at what the competition offers and don’t settle for less. A 185 HP outdated van that is based off of some narrow, European, way-back-when is not acceptable. The Torrent chassis is okay, just put a real engine in it. I’d just as soon forget about the Vibe. Leave the import 4-banger type cars to Saturn and Chevy. People expect a certain amount of American muscle with modern performance and styling from Pontiac, try not to disappoint. Do all this, and the world will be at your feet.
Mr. Lutz,
You are truly a master at this game, as I read the blogs , I see allot people giving good advice, but I bet you already know these things!! And some may not realize, when it comes down to it, its a numbers game and you need to make a profit.
I love the Pontiac Division and a proud owner of a Trans Am, one of the most passionate automobiles on the road. I am also in the process of purchasing the new gto which I think is an awesome car as well, an all around performance car.
I just wanted to thank you for the many great cars you released and with time I know GM will be on top of its game again. My only request reconsider the firebird, resurrect the F-Body’s and kick Fords butt!
Thats all I wanted to say!
Thanks for your time!
I’ve put over 2k miles on my new ‘05 GTO and it’s as big a thrill to slide behind the wheel as the 1968 GTO I bought upon graduation. —- Lutz in my vview has work some magic here.
When will the Solstice be in the dealer showrooms?
Mr. Lutz, I have some suggestions you may find useful as I read about some of the bland styling comments posted from others in this forum. I believe you might want to consider taking a few pages from Zora Duntov, especially on performance/sports cars in areas of character lines,side trim, and yes bring back the functional flared wheel wells as they protect against stone chips and give the styling additional accent. I noticed that a lot of foreign makes have since copied and modified the looks of the ‘71-’73 Camero grill and have since used it on most of their luxury models. I do also belive the reason why Pontiac has had revolving trouble is because I have come to the belief over the years that there must be some unspoken rule that says all Pontiacs must look alike in design or style. A question that I reflect on more regularly these days is that; “will customers have any remarkable memories of the products we are building today 3, 5, or 15+ years from now, like they did in the not so distant past?” I’m sure you are well aware of the importance of customer service and suggest if it has not already happened that you study and adolpt practices from Saturn SSM across GM.Wish you and your design team a sucessful mission…Sincerely, Sam M.
I have just discovered this blog and it is great! Bob, WHY oh WHY does Pontiac not give standard transmission options on all its cars as do Honda and Toyota, rather than only on the expensive high end models? I am specifically talking about the new G6. Shifting for yourself is part of performance, even with a four cylinder. I want to buy an american car, but until I can get a standard, I’m buying a Honda, or maybe a new Ford Fusion.
Bob,
First, the GTO should have been anything else other than the GTO. That said, it is a great car, but not a great “american” car. People know that it is really the Holden which hails from down under. Build something more true to the Great American roots that this moniker is embedded in and people will buy it.
That brings me to my second point, the Camaro NEEDS to be resurected. BUT, if you don’t go back to its retro roots (1967-1969) you will have another dud (cough GTO) on your hands, that no number of hood scoops will fix. I have to give Ford kudos for the Mustang, come on Bob, Chevy is better than this. I have never owned a Ford, but the new Mustang really peeked my interest.
Mr. Lutz,
In case you haven’t noticed the Mustang is out selling any GM car!!! Sure the GTO has power but it is not American made therfore it cannot replace “The Legend” that all of us Pontiac fans know and love. We are simply asking for a complete redesign and make it here!! I know you don’t believe in the “retro” look but I’ll say it again Ford cannot keep the Mustang’s on the lot. Am I the only one who see’s this? The GOAT needs some serious styling to go along with the muscle. Build it right and they will come in mass. Another point on the Mustang it sells for under 30K and it is almost as quick as the GTO. This is going to be the death of the GTO again. Why can’t you build a hot car that a majority of the buyers can afford? If you need any styling help I will be retiring from the USAF in about three years and I would love to show you what a GTO looks like. If you would like I can send you a picture of a 69 Goat and maybe that would jog your memory…
Hi Bob:
I have a 2003 Aztek. I ordered it from the dealer loaded, and have never owned a more functional auto. I have 60,000 miles on it and wanted to buy a new one under your employee promotion. Unfortuantely none of your dealers had anything but cloth upholstered stripped models without so much as a roof rack.
Boy did your marketing guys goof. This is a sport car, useful for those who ski, bike and kayak. You sit up in the air and don’t have to climb out when leaving the car. visibility is good except for the bar through the back window. Quality is questionable and the fact that I had to replace three front wheel hubs in 60,000 is pretty scary.
Now I understand you have discontinued the Aztek and I saw the Torrent in you magazine. I thought you might have a winner here and was amazed that you are making the mistake of not offering a navigation system. Same mistake you made in the Aztek. What do you think we do with an SUV. Those of us who anre not soccer moms use them in the woods and remote areas. Sat Nav is a must. I will look at the car when it comes out.
currently the best car for what I do with an SUV is the Infiniti FX. There are two things wrong with it. The price is too high, and it is Japanese made. Unfortunatley for you it is such a good car that they can sell them without discounting. There is a lesson to be learned here! Hope you are listening.
Pontiac seems well on the way to getting back on track. About the only things left are the removal of the Bonneville, which has gotten entirely to much like a Buick recently, Removal of the Minivan since no minivan, even the most deranged persons mind could be considered a performance vehicle, and the addition of a RWD Grand Prix based on the Holden Commodore architecture, as well as a new Kappa based Firebird for those of us who want a powerful well handling sporty coupe but can’t afford the GTO. If you could style it to remind people of the original late 60’s cars without going retro that would be awesome. To me the whole retro thing with the Mustang screams of a lack of imagination at Ford.
Also, on the marketing side Pontiac has made a huge error in naming it’s new “bread and butter” cars. Why in the world are two well known and well liked names such as Grand Am and Grand Prix being abandoned in favor of some rather boring alpha numeric designations? I think the G6 would have been much better recieved if it were a Grand Am, as people would at least feel that they have some idea of what the car is. It’s a well known nameplate and cars wearing that name seem to sell pretty well because of it. The same goes for the Grand Prix. So please stop with the alpha numerics. They didn’t work in the 80’s and they’re not going to work now.
this is coming from a person who bleeds gm. and have owned nothing but gm products, and currently owns 7 gm vehicles. whats wrong with the a pontiac dealership looking like it did five years ten years ago? my garage looks like a dealership from that period from my ws6 89 transam, to my lingenfelter 00 ws6 and my vert 02 ws6 lingenfelter transam, i love the looks of those cars. i will also take my sisters 97 gtp grand prix over the 05 anyday. currently there isnt a vehicle in the pontiac line that i would be interested in buying right now. seems the only to sell the new cars is to put hoodscoops on them. i currently participate in many track days with my 00 lpe. 400 hp at the rear wheels, bear racing brakes, and a complete eibach, kyb, and edelbrock suspension. this car will out perform many a porsche, vette, viper, bmw, and so on. wouldnt it be nice if pontiac could recreate this vehicle in a new transam, and market it as such. an all wheel drive transam, would be spectacular, which would also seperate it from the vette, i also believe that pontiac needs to get back into nascar, if nothing else just for the exposure, and also more into the scca. thats where most people are interested anyway. if your going to prove performance and excitement, your going to have to show it off. finally my newest vehicle a 04 canyon crew cab z71 was purchased because my 99 s-10 isnt being built anymore. considering i get 28 mpg in my 4cyl 5speed s-10, the canyon sits in the driveway with less then 10,000 miles on it. it was supposed to have the horsepower of a v6 and the mileage of a 4cyl. thats pretty much crap. 19 is the best i can get. yes i know its only a 4 speed auto, but maybe then it should have been a t5. i like the new solstice but will wait for either a turbo or supercharger before purchasing one to thrash at the local road course here in michigan.
Dear GM:
I’m a car guy, and a Pontiac Guy who has had Trans Ams for 13 years. All great, I’m sad to see them go. Looking forward to the Solstice, don’t think the GTO is really for me after I drove one… too cushy. Thinking about a C6 Corvette though, I really like them.
Let me share my thoughts on:
Pontiac:
As a brand Pontiac styling has become blandsville. All the cars look exactly the same. Line up a GTO, G6, and Grand Prix next to one another. All the same. Try to distinguish them on the road. Many times I have had to look long and hard to see if that GTO is really a GTO or a G6 or even a Cavalier. There’s brand identity then there’s cookie cutter. Stop forcing the designers to automatically plonk those dumb 2 kidney beans on the front of Pontiac. If they don’t work, don’t force em! The Firebird sometimes had the “Pontiac Look” to them, sometimes less so, or sometimes very worked over that really made them standout! The 4th Gens were totally their own car, and were still recognizable as Pontiacs. So don’t force them all to conform to a template.
GTO:
In addition, the GTO is the worst offender lately, because it COULD have been really hot looking! Why did anyone see the need to change it at all from its Holden Monaro GTS front end? Honestly, only those people REALLY into cars even knew about it at the beginning. And if you would have kept the hard edge/fang like look of the GTS Monaro, I GUARANTEE you would have had a real winner. The press might have pointed out that it was exactly the same as the Monaro, but every average person and GTO buyer would have thought it was WAY better than what finally happened to the design. Heck I almost thought of making a business just to transplant the GTS front end onto GTOs for the aftermarket.
Now I see in Autoweek a drawing of one that has the 64 sort of front end on it, dual horizontal headlights. Ugh, still not what the car needs. Please, it just looks contrived with no soul in it. For heaven’s sake please put the GTS front end on it. Or make it an optional front end, I bet it would sell like hotcakes!
Fuel economy:
Gas prices rising weekly are going to hurt America’s economy soon. You already know that SUVs are going to stop selling so well. Make more economical cars! Smaller displacement engines, lighter bodies and frames, more things like auto-engine-shutoff and cylinder deactivation. Oh and smaller cars too.
Mr. Lutz: I think you are out of touch what life is like for the non-wealthy. The last thing people want is a GTO that burns
$3.00 gas like crazy. You must think that the younger buyer has an unlimited amout of cash to pay higher and higher gas prices. NONE of your cars were designed for $3.00 a gallon gas as European cars ARE. In terms of design, the 2005, 2006 look like the same old
GM cars. Chystler new that if they were to change sales, they would have to make a break with past designs. You
have not learned that yet…thus the PONTIAC with styling cues from past Pontiacs. Unfortunatley, you have gone back to the safety
of the 1950’s by going back to all red lenses, eliminating the safer amber rear directionals. I own a 2000 Camaro 3.8…one of the best styled cars of GM and what did you do? You dropped it.
I think your judgement is no different than past GM executives. Its the same old thing…igoring the price of gas and rehashing old designs calling them new. Sorry, we’re smarter than that.
“General Motors to Extend Employee-Pricing Discount Until Sept. 30, Add Select 2006 Models
DETROIT (AP) — General Motors Corp. will extend its employee-pricing discount plan on select 2005 models until Sept. 30, a spokeswoman said Thursday.
The world’s biggest automaker also plans to apply the discount to select 2006 full-size trucks and sport utility vehicles, said spokeswoman Brenda Rios. The program lets customers buy vehicles at the employee rate.”
I wonder why GM would make ANY ‘06 vehicle to sell at the Employee Discount Price!
It suggests to me that GM is making a helluva profit on its vehicles even at that selling price.
The average that I have seen by watching the ads in the papers is that most of the cars are marked up by at least 10K. If you could reign in the greed of the dealers then maybe you could sell more cars. May sound silly but a 23-22K GTO sounds a heck of a lot better than a 32K one. Oh and I do believe that the dealers are still raking it in with this kind of a cut they are not hurting when they want to move product. Obviously they are not wnting to move Pontiac product thats for sure.
Pontiac has been at the bottom of the food chain for a long time because it has not been connecting with the buyers.
It has not been connecting with the buyers because they listen to the bean counters more than listening to the customers.
Let me rephrase that.
You are listening to your buyers, The dealers, not the people that purchase your product I understand you and the dealers are out to make a profit, but when you ignore the wishes of the car buying public you are ignoring your future.
Mustanf and ford have been connecting with the public for decades better than any offering except the earliest GTO’s because:
A: They are not out there gouging the public for every red cent.
B: They offer more choices for how you can set the car up to your own taste. You can order a fire breather or a demure little grandma’s car.
C: You as a copmpany and the dealers as middle men have completely converted to the true socialist style economy.
You have one choice only one choice so pick what ever we want to produce or for get it.
Sorry there are a lot of buyers who have said forget it and have gone else where to get better cars, better milage, better quality.
D: Your continual protection of chevy and the turning out of cookie cutter type cars except chevy and caddilac only proves that the performance company ie. Pontiac is a token company, soon to go the way of the,dodo bird and Oldsmobile.
Long live the king.
The GTO is a wonderful car except for two things, price is too high and the styling is very bland. Adjust these two items and you would have a car that sells, especially the styling, very disappointing. Please do not let this car disappear without a fight. thank you
Hey GM!! HINT! HINT! one word FOOSE. I say write him a blank check and watch your exciment division see sales out of this world. You know your buddies down the street in Dearborn just happened to try that with a guy named Shelby a few years back. Along with that eliminate the the giant commitees that make it seem like every car that rolls off the assembly line seem like every other car rolling off that line. Make it like it was in the golden years of pontiac, let people option the heck out their cars, if they want, make it so that every car that rolls off the line is someones. Make it so that people that want a high horsepower car and luxury can have it with OPTIONS and poor college students, like me attending Kettering University, can have a high horsepower car with out the extra shtuff like say power windows, power locks and for sake of argument power steering. Doesn’t that sound familiar from once upon a time? I know, I know, not “cost efficiant” on the line, well i say make it happen. Make it so its the cars more with more option cost more and the ones with less, cost less, makes sense. Make it, so that my age group 16-26 dont have to by old f-bodies just to get exciment and raw horse power cheap.
Another very important point DO NOT re-release old muscle cars. Its time to create a new age in Detroit (hint! FOOSE), there is no reason to try to compete with BMW or the sport compact group, make a new genere to compete with you DETROIT! Make them say “aw NO Detroit is killing us we better try to make cars to compete with them”. I’ll say it again FOOSE and only FOOSE no comittee or anything else.
Mr. Lutz,
Thanks for the focus on Pontiac. The new Pontiacs have great handling.
Styling is the issue, and follow through is the concern. The G6 and the Solstice have great styling, so that is a start.
The former Grand AM would have sold twice as many units if GM would have cleaned up the lines sooner. What is difficult to understand is why GM kept that tail light look from the former Grand AM on the new Grand Prix?
Please give the Grand Prix and the GTO a new look. It would be nice to see a new flagship sedan for Pontiac with a completely new look. Maybe a G8. The Bonneville and GXP were nice, but GM took too long to update the styling and the public stopped noticing by the time GM fixed the issue.
There are GM exclusives that would excite the public about Pontiacs. The 67 GTO look is a good example.
Pontiac’s competition like Nissan and Acura have lured buyers with styling illusion and image appeal.
The reaction of the younger set to the Solstice has the potential to set the pace for Pontiac’s resurgence. GM should be very serious about the Solstice release. One idea would be to set the new Solstice outiside movie theaters this Holiday season so it catches the eye of the younger set. Combine the Solstice with local nostalgia car shows. Make sure the Solstice is dislayed in key locations like malls. Put the Solstice in the cone test races. It starts people talking.
The ground war for image appeal is more important than you may think. But don’t forget the air war either. Don’t let the biased media get away with bad mouthing ANY of your new releases this time. Respond forcefully, and respectfully.
The same way the GTO was created in conjunction with Holden, (Monaro), are there any plans to bring the Holden Caprice into GM’s North-American offerings?
It would make a great model for Buick! (possibly Cadillac)
2006 Pontiac GTO review
It may not look like an old-school GTO, but this modern-day incarnation has more muscle than the original. Unfortunately, there’s more engine here than the suspension can keep up with. Pros One of the best V8s ever made under the…
Bob
I hope you have a chance to read this..
People are waiting for the return of the Fiero GT.
RVK
Hi, attached is a link to a picture of what the 2009 Trans Am should look like. If you want sales this is the way to go! I’d be 1st in line for one.
I agree with many posters here. The problem with getting GTO sales is not the performance of the car, but rather the appearance of it. People just aren’t going to be that excited about a car that looks exactly like every other pontiac on the road. If I as a buyer had to decide between an amazingly retro-styled Mustang GT for $25,000 or a blandly styled GTO for $35,000, my choice would be clear. Even the fact that the GTO makes 100 more hp would not be enough to sway me. Pontiac got the styling right with the Solstice, now if only it could do the same with the Goat. On a final note, if Pontiac is already importing cars from Holden, why not the Ute SS? It will definitely sell better than the SSR has been.
I was wondering if anybody knew if and what year in the mid 80’s pontiac grand prix’s came with 15 inch rims thank you,Shawn
its my future car
I had a lot of hope but Mr. Lutz you have no clue as to what people can afford and what looks good and what looks bland. I own a 2000 Camaro. My next car is a Honda Civic…sorry pal…you just don’t get it.
I currently own a 50 state smog legal 600+hp 2005 GTO and believe it to be the finest muscle car EVER built dollar for dollar…
I have a supercharger on the car and the seat of the pants thrill is on par, or above, most SUPERCAR specs. Yet the price is well in the range of an average Joe like me.
THANK YOU BOB LUTZ!
Here is a recent video of a pontiac car show in Ventura California where you can plainly see the “old school” GTO’s along side the NEW….It was a wonderful day. AND with the passing of the pontiac brand the fellowship felt between all present was significant.
We miss you already Pontiac….and your still here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ32gho0kx4