Transportation From a Different View

It's sad that anyone has to go through times that are trying like the ones you are dealing with right now. It's a rough time for families in so many way, transportation needs included. A friend of the family was put into a similar situation recently and now uses a 2004 Pontiac Montana to help him get around. The best of luck to you Joe.

It's good to see someone at GM addressing a very important need - one that will grow as the "baby boomers" head into retirement.

My parents live in a major retirement home, and one challange is to help them, walkers/wheelchairs and all, get from the health center to their cottages. Most vehicles make ingress/egress very difficult, let alone loading/unloading implements.

Some things that seem to help are:
1. Trunks without gooseneck hinges (the latter crush or bind on walkers or other bulky items).
2. Doors which can open at large angles, especially the rear doors.
3. Lack of overhangs on interior trim to prevent feet/etc from catching as passengers get in/out.
4. Interior Grab handles near the doors.
5. Large, easy to reach buttons on seat/shoulder belts.

I hope GM marketers keep in mind this part of our population. And thanks, Joe, for bringing this topic to attention.

I've seen a situation before where they took a venture van and made the hatch back open from the side so a wheel chair wouldnt hit the top
of thehatch back when open in the up position. Also they had a ramp for the chair on the back and passenger side that will fold out on acuters form the keyless entry remote. Also locks so the chair doesnt slide around.

And for the problem of baby boomers that can't use there legs well they have paddle accleration and brakes.

I hope our imputs help!

This post i Think will help publize this mobilty issue and help familys alike.

Best of luck to you Joe and Familys alike.

Craig

I've actually looked over gmability.com in the past as well as some of the materials that GM produces relating to vehicle modifications that can be done by aftermarket upfitters to GM vehicles.

To be honest, I've found the whole thing very confusing to try to wade through. What I think would be helpful would be for GM to work with some of the major aftermarket upfitters who modify GM vehicles and produce a clear concise, but detailed all-in-one guide to exactly what type of modifications can be made to vehicles; which vehicles they can be made to; and which company makes them.

To make it even easier, a grid chart could also be made (which would work quite well on the website) that has the vehicles that can be modified at the top with a list of the modifications that can be made on the left, and then a check mark in columns below the individual vehicles which indicate which modification can be made to which vehicle.

Thanks for bringing this topic up. It's one that has been of interest for some time and I hope you get lots of feedback and good suggestions that will allow GM to better address the subject with it's customers and how to make GM vehicles more accessable to those with special needs.

For about five years,G.M. has had a handicapped accesory seat you could add to the venture. Go ask any dealer and they will look at you like you had six heads. They have no idea that something like that is around. This was a great feature that G.M. never pursued.

I was curious what it is like for drivers with disabilites getting gas in a self service world once you have recieved your GM car? Our company works on trying to solve that... let me know if you want more information...

thanks.

So are you all going to make the HHR fully wheelchair accessible?

While I applaud GM's efforts in making more mobility accessible vehicles, it's a shame that the only GM options for persons with motorized wheelchairs are the same vehicles described by the NY Times as "a clear case of underachievement."

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/17/automobiles/17AUTO.html?pagewanted=all

Just because people have limitations doesn't mean they don't want cool cars too!

I can't wait until GM starts building more fun, reliable and affordable cars that EVERYONE looks forward to driving.

Mobility issues aren't just limited to physical challenges due to accident or disease. They become an issue just from getting older.
One idea that's not new but might be considered is a knealing front suspension. I remember when GM built the transit busses years ago where the front right suspension would lower once the bus came to a stop, to make it easier for passengers to get on and off. I've heard complaints from several seniors that they love some of our SUV's but won't buy them because they are too difficult to get into and out of. Seats are too high off the ground; even when the running board options are included. Adjustable brake and accelerator pedals ought to be an option or standard on more of our products.
"Way to go" Joe and John. Somehow I always knew you would turn your personal tragedy into an opportunity for our GM Family to participtate and contribute with ideas and hopefully, some action!

Bring a smaller than cobalt car to the US with the 1.8L 140hp ecotec. Something like the Ford Fiesta. This is going to be the hottest new segment.

Why isn't there a Pontiac version of the Opel Astra? VXR/GXP versions would sell well here.

The pictures of the new Tahoe have leaked on the internet. Looks good...hope there is a 6 speed automatic and a nice interior. If not you can just forget it, and I'll go buy a Armada.

Where is the Chevy midsize car based SUV? Something like the Subaru Tribeca. Its too late because hyunday already has their new santa fe comming out.

You guys are so far behind the times its rediculous.

You can't even build a camaro or a corvette with a decent interior. Such a shame.

I was happy I discarded import consideration when I bought my 1999 SW2 new. The SW2 has provided me great reliability, economy, safety, durability (poly panels), and storage as well as good performance. For some reason, GM & Saturn have abandoned this vehicle which could have been refined to succeed over the 2005 line-up of the Mazda 3 Wagon, Hyundai Elantra 5-door, Toyota Matrix, and Suzuki Wagon. I don’t understand why GM & Saturn have eradicated this great small wagon making consumers like myself leave GM again for foreign nameplate vehicles to meet our needs.

Why is Lexus so much better

Well, with my disability GM is doing well, at least with the older cars. In 94 I was in a motor cycle accident and ripped 3 of the 5 nerves that run my right arm. My hand still works for the most part but my right arm is paralysed. This makes me a very left handed person. This requires me to carefuly pick my cars. I need the controls on my left and a column shift. So GM's multi function turn signal with the cruise, and wipers integrated into it is a must for me. I also like that the lights are on the left side. And up untill recently almost any GM car would suit me just fine. However GM has started to switch to Consul shift, and putting cruise functions in the steering wheel, the right side of the sterring wheel, and putting controls on a seperate stick on the right side of the steering wheel. If GM stops making cars that I can drive, then I'll just rebuild the old ones. But at least keep these as options as you have on the LaCrosse.
But thanks for making vehicles that I can drive without modifications, because I don't/can't drive Ford, DC, Toyota, Honda, etc..

RG2; Ken

You must really be thick if you think a personal story of tragedy and accomplishment is the best place to bash GM, and beg for upcoming models that are completely unrelated to this story.

Karl's right - a kneeling system like that in the old GMC RTS-II's could be a practical applicant, if designed properly. Nova Bus (the purchaser of RTS production after 1987) expanded the technology to kneel both to the passenger side and to the front - so this could prove to be even more useful in certain situations.

I wrote this about 6 months ago... perhaps it is relevant

Dear Mr. Lutz,

I am intrigued that there is a venue to comment upon the design of cars that has a possibility of actually impacting these designs.

I realize that I take a different and perhaps parochial view of car design, and that I represent a small minority of the car buyers of the world; be that as it may; here are my entirely unsolicited comments.

I use a wheelchair. I had polio and that means I have been disabled for a long, long time - before it was even trendy, hence every car I have ever had, or rented has had hand-controls. I now qualify myself as an expert after driving them for well over 40 years.

Now styles may vary but to get a folding chair into a car usually goes like this.

Open driver door, slide from chair to driver’s seat; slide from driver’s seat to passenger’s seat; fold driver’s seat forward; reach behind seat and grab on to the front of the chair and pull it into the space between the front and rear seats; release front set back and slide back into driver’s seat. Give a sigh.

This presumes a two door car. As you can easily appreciate you can not do this with a four door car. It also requires that the space behind the back of the drivers seat and the rear of the door opening is sufficient to allow you to get the chair in, and the space between the front and rear sears can accept a folded chair. As a collorary it usually requires an automatic transmission and power steering and brakes.

Now trying to find a car that meets all these requirements and also has a trunk into which the chair will fit – allowing the rest of the family to share my incredibly fabulous company has been a sore trial on my well developed and well exercised sense of humour.

I have two children under 12 and a wife – who indulges me. We currently have a surplus of cars. A 2005 Buick (my wife alone must skew the demographics on Buick owners), a 2001 Focus wagon, a 1993 Mustang and an 1981 WS6 Trans-Am.

I can drive all of the cars, but can only get my chair into the Mustang and the TA. They are great cars for my needs. 2 large doors, low to the ground – no and - let me repeat this, no centre counsel preventing me from moving – entirely gracefully – from the driver’s to the passenger’s seat.

I shall not lie. You can not get the chair into the trunk of the TA without disassembling it, leaving not much room than for a negligee or two. In my defense I bought it before I was married and was responsible. I can not give it up – as my seven year old daughter says… “.. it likes corners..”.

The Focus is nearly great. The interior room is ample, almost as much as the Sable wagon it replaced – and handles much better. The wagon means my son can get the chair into the cargo area with little trouble as it has flush entrance. The centre arm rest swings up so my wife and I can share the driving with out me having to get out into the chair just to get into the passenger’s seat. We rented a current Monte Carlo in Florida that required me to do that, and the last generation of Thunderbird was no better – same with Grand Ams etc. It drives me crazy.

We have just got the Buick and I am reserving my comments until I am more familiar with it.

I shall not even hint at the tribulations I go through at car dealers… “ I need a two door automatic… “ “Oh we have a nice 5 speed Jetta right over here…” I have more than once strained an arm restraining my wife… She is Irish you see - lost her sense of the absurd in the famine. Now speaking of stereotypes - all the dealers immediately try to convince me to by a van… I point out that Vans, and SUVs are all way too high off the ground to allow me to get from the chair into the driver's seat. They never believe this and I must go to the vehicle, open the door and show them the distance. A waste of time, especially mine.

Look at the selection of cars or wagons out there… no two door wagons – I can understand that; but the selection of coupes with no centre console, that can contain a wheel chair between the seats, have a usable trunk, an automatic transmission, and have any pretensions to style or panache is pretty low.

We looked at the Saturn coupe – the extra two doors intrigued me; it would make getting the chair in nearly easy - but the fact that the Redline version is not available with an automatic and you could not get 4 wheel disk brakes on the regular version annoyed me, and the interior was a bit bizarre even for me. The previous version of the Saturn had the console running into the back seat area, so you could not jam a chair in with out major automotive surgery.

Even if the new GTO was less expensive, it would be a dubious choice as the chances of moving between seats, with the emergency brake positioned as it is – is not with out grave personal risk, and more mundanely the console intrudes into the rear storage area…. The current Grand Am coupe and the Cobalt suffer from the same problem. Oh well.

All the companies make a big deal about their programs for the “disabled driver” which are mainly to subsidize modifications to a vehicle; this is all well and good but it would be nice if the initial design of both the interior and exterior took some of the generic needs of the disabled driver into consideration. I doubt that this would compromise the integrity of the process anymore than taking into consideration the specific needs of women has. In truth I suspect if you could delete some “standard features” you would have a reasonable starting point for a far more accessible design.

When we do a big development projects I often get two different project managers involved in the initial needs definition stage, as experience has thought me that presumptions colour all design development exercises, and that the more varied input always leads to a more refined and insightful product. I know that the budget discrepancies between my projects and yours are many orders of magnitude but I think – perhaps naively - that the paradigm is congruent.

Now to reassure you the auto industry is not alone in its narrow view… the wheelchair industry, if you can believe it, is worse.

So much for my ranting. I appreciate the effort you are making to improve GM – and remember at least ½ of our cars were made by you. So good luck.

Craig Taylor
Ottawa, Ontario
Canada.

Thank you, Craig Taylor, for taking the time to post your comprehensive thoughts to this blog. I am sure that there are many people looking who will benefit from your insights, and they provide good design input to GM as well. It is this kind of information sharing that will benefit all, even if the individual situations vary. I would like to hear of some similar experiences and advise from “long time” quadriplegics. Thanks to all for your thoughts, Joe Katona

Reading Craig Taylor's post brought two ideas to mind that may be useful.

How about a 4-door sedan which can be easily modified so that the rear doors open to the rear (i.e., suicide doors) to make loading a wheel chair easier?

Another possible innovation, which may be much easier to implement, would be a 60/40 bench seat in which the passenter side seat back could fold down and then the front of the seat release so it can flip back to make loading a wheel chair into the front of the vehicle easier.

Greg

"Shore up your works, with faith and love guild,

For these are the only eternal substances, from which mankind is allowed to build." -Hayes

of "The Love Scrolls" series.

I am glad I can root for a company that has a heart. When I say it, I mean it.

Read the book.

It's not always about money. Keep talking to the Union they will come around, they are good people. They make the best cars in the world.

Tell them it's just different this time.

It's about America, their survival and the survival of GM and Ford. The last two. They are the only ones in pain right now while the rest of the world and even America prospers.

May God Save the Neapolitan!

I am having a difficult time finding a car that allows me to transfer into the drivers side of the car and place my wheelchair behind the drivers door. I am currently driving a 1997 Buick Skylark. This car is great but I would like to buy a new car. It seems like all the 2-door cars currently available on the market have the gear shift and consol in the middle of the car (between the drivers seat and passenger seat). This style of car makes it impossible for someone who uses a wheelchair to transfer into a car and put their wheelchair in behind the drives seat independently. I need to find a car that allows me to do the following steps when I transfer into the car:
1. Transfer into drivers seat
2. Put the legs of my wheelchair behind the drivers seat.
3. Use the electric seat to move my seat back as far as it will go.
4. Transfer to the paassenger seat and fold the drivers seat forward and pull the chair behind the drivers side of the car.
5. Move the electric drivers seat back to normal position and drive.

I do not understand why car manufactureres do not build cars for people in wheelchairs. Not everyone in a wheelchair wants to drive a van. I feel that I am being discriminated. Is there anything that you can do to help GM build cars for people like me. I woul dbe happy to send you a videotape of how I transfer into my car so you can see excatly the situation and needs for a car I have.

Thanks

Deborah Hornback

I have a friend in a wheelchair who builds cars. I cringe inside when I see what he has to do to enter/exit a vehicle. We've often talked of a four-door with "suicide" rear doors. Something like a 1951 Mercury four door, but without a "B" pillar. It would require a reinforced structure, but would afford him unrestricted access to the back seat.

Graeme Sackrison
Lacey, WA

A disabled friend of mine is looking for a 2-door, column shift car. No center console would be nice. Doors that open wide whould be wonderful. She has a stiff leg and hip and can't handle the climb into vans, trucks, SUVs, etc. (She's also small and doesn't want a huge car.) This search is A LOT harder that it should be!

Joe I know your going through some tough times with your son but hings will definatel get better and better in the future and you will be amazed at the spirit that will come from your son. Best luck to the both of you in the future.

I think this is a good topic for discussion that might add insight to an overlooked area. The vast majority of spinal cord injuries happen to males under the age of 25 (myself included) who have a lot of years ahead of them for car purchases. I am a Para and only require a medium to large two door car with hand controls and it's tough enough to find that.

Everyone is different I suppose but I transfer from my chair to the drivers seat and then take the wheels off my chair and put them behind me on the back seat. I then swing my legs in and recline the seat while reaching out and grabbing my now folded chair. I then just lift the chair across my chest and put it in the backseat behind the passenger seat allowing room for a passenger. The Grand Prix has a passenger seat that easily folds and slides way up out of the way. Unfortunately the GP is no longer available as a two door.

I would like to see simple things like a stronger handle to recline the drivers seat because clearly these handles are not designed to be used as much as some of us use them and they cannot be replaced without buying an entire seat (GP). Every time I leave the house I will use that handle 4 times and that's with only one destination. Tougher interior materials because dragging a chair in and out will take a toll no matter how careful you are. A basic handle to grab to shut the trunk since when the trunk is fully upright it’s pretty high. A reversing camera would be a nice option because when one hand is on the steering wheel and the other is on the hand control it is very difficult to rotate your shoulders enough to see behind you without letting off one of the controls. Please do not put power reclining seats in all cars because my wife drives a GTO and if I had to drive that every day I know the seat motors wouldn’t last, not to mention they are much slower than a manual system. A suicide door on the passenger side of an HHR (no B-Pillar) would be a handy daily driver and would allow room for kids or another couple to ride along when going out.

Who's the current head of Cadillac division, and a mailing address?

My winter car - a 1992 mustang has gone to it's just reward.

To replace it I bought a 2002 Saturn coupe. The two doors on the driver's side are great, but we had to take a power hacksaw to the centre counsel and the hand brake. I am having a local plastic fabricator make me cover to disguise the results.

I hate having to do this when a little tought and a "delete option" would have made life so much easier. Oh well!

I totally agree with what you're saying. I wish more people felt this way and took the time to express themselves. Keep up the great work.
Josh Rivers

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