Response on Red Tag

"That's just the way it is."

I guess that says everything we need to know about GM's attitude in general. Don't bother trying anything different, things are going so great with the status quo.

There's nothing wrong with the GM cars; there's something wrong with the media and customer perception!

Frankly, I think this whole sales thing is, uhh, male bovine excrement.

People here and elsewhere have said it hear 1000 times: If you want to sell cars, make them cars people would want.

If they don't want the cars themselves, at least make them want them for their reliability. So many people want an "appliance" car: put in gas and go. So GIVE them that.

A 10 year powertrain warantee (this would have cost GM a whopping $0 on my 95 saturn, the only significant repair I had was replacing both seatbelts a year ago). Free 3-5 years maintinence (that's really only a $500 cost, at least if you ask Crystler).

And why not take advantage of all the cars you would dump on the rental fleet and instead have service loaners for everybody?

BMW has had great success with the "Free maintinence and service loaners" approach.

And GM, with both so many dealers, and so many cars they can't otherwise sell, a program with a "5 year bumper/bumper, 10 year powertrain, 3-5 year maintinence included WITH loaner cars" would be less expensive than your "Massive discounts on G6 coupes!" and be vastly more attractive to customers.

Introduce the "Just Drive" car. And forget about all the rest of this red tag crud.

Programs are one thing. $3000 off of a Buick LaCrosse, however, makes you wonder about the truth behind "value pricing". I would have to really want a specific GM car beyond reason to risk buying it anywhere near MSRP, if the new LaCrosse is "value priced" and only months later has a $3000 dollar discount. Something is wrong with that. It just ensures that I will wait for the next "deal".

I think Weaver has some good points. Warranties make people comfortable. No worries - just drive. I bet your sales would drop by 75% if your warranties were any lower. So you should seriously consider how much you'd gain by offering a bit longer warranty.

Now that said, Red Tag is okay by me - Toyota has Toyotathon, right? Year end close out is part of the business, and with GM you can see the closeout price on the website (gmbuypower.com)! Pretty cool. Too bad noone knows about that website :-( BUT - you can see the prices also on the brand sites, so maybe that's ok.

Personally though - the red tags aren't always very impressive. Sometimes they barely get you to invoice WITH the rebate! Now, on a popular fast-selling car, that's fine. But look at the GTO. It's hardly selling in my area (~100mi radius from Raleigh-Durham), and the "red tag price" is just a teeny bit below invoice. That's not good enough - it should be invoice + $500 cushion (max) - some whopping rebate. So, although I'd like a GTO, I for one am going to wait for a deal that's at least close to last year's deal - $5500 rebate when financing with GMAC + $5000 bonus cash from GM Card. It's not unreasonable - SUV's sell for $10k+ off of $35k MSRP's all the time (dodge/chrysler had several of those sales in my Sunday paper this week). Hopefully GM won't screw over the dealers and leave them with the 50 GTO's that are near my house (according to gmbuypower).

"We know the Employee Discount for Everyone program brought in lots of customers who otherwise might have waited."

Translation: "We cannibalized future sales to move iron."

As I said before:
1) Build great cars and trucks
2) Pice them aggressively.
3) Back them with an industry-leading warranty.

And I hate to disagree, GALA, but perception IS reality in business. Even if GM is building class-leading vehicles (They aren't), it will take a few years for the public's perception to catch up.

I sat in a Torrent last weekend, and while it is roomy, the quality of the switchgear, especially HVAC controls, is pathetic. The only engine is a 3.4L OHV V-6. Overhead Cams? Nah.

I'll go ahead and rain on everyone's parade and predict that Solstice sales will tank after the first year, when buyers find out it has 1 Cubic Foot of cargo space with the top down. Toyota MR Spider, anyone?

The market NEVER LIES. GM vehicle have abysmal sevice records and resale values.

GM sales were down 23% in October.

Look, the people who post on this site a auto fanatics. We want GM to succeed. But it can't unless it stops drinking the PR Kool-Aid and addresses the long term systemic issues that are killing it.

Stop with the Red Tag sales, cash back, etc. CUT PRICES to real world transaction prices and you just might not need to spend all that cash on promotions and could put it into building better vehicles.

Have to say I love the commercial were you are using the Red Tag to poke fun at Lexus's yearly Christmas commercials!

I read the book, 'Against All Odds:The Story of Toyota' and there was a good paragraph or two about Toyota's very successful "Toyota-thon" sale which they introduced several years ago. Toyota's sale, as are most year-end sales, are aimed at clearing out last years models to make way for the newer models. So the 'Red Tag' sale makes sense there. I just think the name 'Red Tag' is kinda generic. Why not come up with a cathy name and market it that way? "Toyota-thon" is catchy name and I am sure many Toyota consumers wait for the Toyota-thon. Why not a similar plan for the GM year-end sale?

I agree with you Mark, sales are part of any product plan. It's the best you have to work with when you can't cut back inventory to meet up with demand. I think consumers appreciate the price you see is the price you pay element. And GM cars and trucks are getting better at a rapid pace. The last round of new vehicles has been class competitive, with the newest round (t900's solstice, etc) I believe they are class leading, so we are showing improvements. I just wish GM didn't have all of these structural problems that prevents them from adjusting to demand as quickly as some of their competitors.
P.S. I'd love to see GM Card earnings on saabs!

Zarba, one comment - I'm not saying the 3400 V6 is a very good engine (it has had its fair share of problems) but OHV technology is not the issue. The Corvette Z06? 505 HP and still 16/26 mpg. Same with the 3500 V6, which produces more power than Toyota's DOHC 3.0L and gets much better mileage.
If these engines prove to be durable, they are the best in their fields.
The Equinox and Torrent would be much better if they're suspension wasn't flaccid and the 3500 / 3900 engines were offered.

The comparison to toyotathon is also booogus...

This isn't just "Clear out the 05s" (that's what the employee discount bit was supposed to do), this is deep discounting the O6s as well.

A G6 coupe GTP is nearly $3k discounted off list. ON A BRAND NEW MODEL! $2k off Torrents. Again, a BRAND NEW MODEL!

Discount on an 05 G6 sedan is $4k. AND ON THE 06!

Same level of discounting on the 05 and 06 Cobalts...

$3500 off an 06 canyon!

Saying this is a "clear out the old" sale ploy is being rather fast and loose with the truth: this is "EDFE" revisited: Attempt to cannabalize future sales by deep discounting, part 2.

If the promotion was on 2005 models, I could understand the "Toyota-thon" comparison. When the commercial touts 2005 and 2006 models, it no longer suggests we are trying to get rid of our 05's because the 06's are here, it is touting we are trying to move anything because we can't sell any of them for what we are asking.

In "Toyota-thon" commercials I don't recall hearing "come and actually pay a fair price!" The idea is you always get value for your dollar through them, but we need to clear out any remaining 05's because the 06's are here so get a little more value. (Which honestly pry isnt that much difference in value because they are nautrally depreciating as last year's models anyways.) Not becuase no one is buying them and we need to slap 1,000s of dollars on the hood to move them.

I can't stress how poor "save $X,XXX or $XX,XXX dollars." negatively affects the percieved value of the vehicle or any felling of prestige that may be gotten by owning one. I know it makes me never want to trust any price from GM, be it MSRP, Total Value, or even the now too ferequent "we'll lose money for you to take one!"

Cars are about a mixture of passion and security. Give us neither and maybe we'll bite once or twice on a "can't believe it deal" that are becoming all too common and all to believeable (expected)

"Why did you buy that GM? You've been drooling over it?"
-ummm...no
"You will never have to worry about big repair bills or selling it down the road?"
-ummm...no
"Get a great deal?"
-Well....I thought so when I bought my 06'. But I saw yesterday that they are now even cheaper than when I bought mine for and it ain't even 06 yet..
"So would you buy another or recommend one...?
-ummmmmmm..........

First of all, I just want to say "Thank You" for the response. It is nice to know that the comments actually get noticed.

Couple of things to keep in mind.... First, like others have said, most of the people leaving comments really do want GM to succeeed, so don't become overly defensive when someone provides criticisim. We are on the same team. Second, I honestly don't feel as though you are paying attention to your customers. I have nothing against the red tag event, I realize the need to move inventory. However, I've looked at the red tag prices for new 06 models. If such deep discounts can be offered for this event, why not drop the "Total Value" price even further? When you buy a Honda or Toyota, you don't have to worry about others paying 3-5 thousand less than you. The price on those vehicles just doesn't swing like that. What you have done by offering a "Total Value" price and then knocking thousands off, is shown that the total value was still not the "accurate" value.

The enthusiasts on this site may be a bit hard on GM at times, but its for a good reason. I seriously suggest you listen to some of the more reasonable suggestions. Who do you think gives advice to their family and friends when it is time for them to buy a new car? I've personally recommended Hondas to many people over the years, and they've taken my advice. I would love to be able to recommend a GM vehicle the next time I'm asked.

As a side note....nice work on the plant closings. Its a tough deal, but it had to be done. Remember not to waste money building cars no one wants (cough SSR cough) and you'll do much better.

Heard about the 30K people out of a job for Thanksgiving. Hope you enjoy that turkey and cranberry sauce.

I am driving my 3rd Montana and should be trading it in for a 2006 but the NEW 2006 is uglier than my 2003 plus it still doesn't offer a power lift gate. Nothing worse that watching the "desperate housewives in my Kroger parking lot clicking open thier lift gates and I have to struggle to push mine up.

Fact!!!!!
General Motors are building quality cars and trucks.And a BUICK DEALER IS ONE GREAT PLACE TO GO FIND OUT!!!.Great loyalty is what you will find!!The customers in the shop are there for maintenence items not for WARRANTY WORK on costly poorly built vehicles!!!The quality story will soon be known and the dependabilty of the new GM products will start to take back the business it has given up due to past quality issues.There has been a little delay between the loss of the skylark,century ,regal,roadmaster,lesabre ,and park ave.T he story is in the process of being told.The new LUCERNE has already and will continue to shake up the MARKET.It will bring us conquest sales and also HALO the LACROSSE for more future conquest.The quality speaks for itsself the past is the past and those dedicated to the success of their company and livlihood will reap the rewards of a brighter future at GM by buying and selling their GREAT NEW PRODUCTS THAT RECENTLY HAVE BEEN AND ARE BEING RELEASED TODAY!!!!!

Mark,
While the responses are quite varied here, there is a general theme. No one doubts you want to get people in to see GM's products but the reality is there appears to be no proof in the sales results that your competitor's customers are visiting your showrooms. That's because your competitors are posting record results while yours are tanking without heavy discounts. That means there is a high probability you are simply taking much needed profits off of the table by pulling sales ahead from GM loyalists. Now, that said, you've got to do what you've got to do to move product because it's apparent you need cash more than profit to continue operations. So, it appears you are willing to sell vehicles at near zero or possibly below profit to simply get them moving. While in a perfect world people would want your product without incentives, we know that isn't the case and won't be for most products into the foreseeable future. ie, Your product mix and product portfolio aren't what customers want for the most part. Ok, so you need incentives to move products that would otherwise likely not move and you've got to keep the factories running because of high fixed costs. Great. So, isn't there a better way? Is cheapening all of GM's NA brands the only way to do it? How about something creative? Something beyond the obvious GM marketing which implies to many that your products are "less than" so you have to give them away. Toyota and Honda haven't been offering above normal discounts during your employee incentive programs. Iaccoca had the "If you can find a better car, buy it". Isn't there something your team can drum up to drive interest other than "cheap" and delivering the message that your cars are priced beyond value and to wait for the sale because you are otherwise getting ripped off? Which, btw, you are via two methods. One is the artificially inflated purchase price and the other is the pathetic resale value or residual value caused by GM's incessant discounting.

OK, you answered our qualms about red tag so how come not a peep about our idea for a longer warranty?
Come on, whats the deal? Most people would go to your showrooms immediately if they didnt have to worry about repairs after 3 years.
In addition to closing plants, how about cutting back from 12 mediocre 6 cylinder engines and use the 3.6 V6 in everything that currently takes a V6?
Put the best pushrods in your trucks, get rid of the idiotic 5 cylinder.
Why is the Lucerne using an ancient 6 cylinder when you have the 3.6?
Come on, what is the deal with you guys!?

Quote:
"I think it's important to give you some insight as to why we're doing a certain marketing program"

If a marketing campagin were to be successful, wouldn't supplementary memos regarding its message and purpose be irrevelant?

You guys need to step this area up a notch. Or five.

"Even if GM is building class-leading vehicles (They aren't)"

Right there is perception.

I wonder how many of you bloggers own a GM vehicle, RIGHT NOW!?

I do, and have owned new GM vehicles for 21 years.

Mark,

Go drive the new Ford Fusion, or a spend a week with the Ford Focus...build me one of them. I am an import buyer but would be glad to switch.

Don't settle for mediocrity because it is not fair to your customers, shareholders, employees, or country. Go the extra mile, hire people who want to re-create a great car company, not just hide out until retirement. Be bold and insist on excellence in everything you do.

As a software billionaire once said to me, be willing to "change or die."

OK, enough already! from the folks out there bashing GM, and the execs. who put their self out there to be "smacked around". Go back and take a look at the product GM had 10 years ago, even 5 years ago and compare it to what is being offered now by the GM brands, Wow! what a difference there is.

Quality,Style,and Price has
improved a lot. So,,,if they want to give us little "marketing push" every now and then, what's wrong with that. Let's face it, having direct email access to the execs. at GM is really a pretty cool thing. Remember its the folks like us, who take the time, and interest to read this Blog, are the very ones who can get the word out about GM products and maybe,influence
future products. Sooo if your
going whine,and complain be
constructive about it, constructive feed back will go a lot further, and will get
more "ears" than non-constructive feed back.
Thanks, Mr. LaNeve for "blogging" with us, and tell the product guys
to keep up the good work, it shows!

The choice seems easy. Either get those hot selling
Saablike gas and diesel euroturbos(already at 25-45 mpg with no real performance loss)plus a hybrid option in a bunchmore models over here or continue with the never-ending "toe-tag" sales.

I would like to ask why does the US do all these rebates where you don't get as much in Canada. Perhaps by not doing all these rebates, perhaps you'll make a profit instead of losing a profit. I'm a true GM fan, but I know stupidity when I see it. Perhaps if the US watched how GM Canada performs its operations, you'll see why GM does so much better in Canada. GM's new products are excellent, however I think it would be smarter to do more promoting and not over producing so you'll have to lower the price because of a lower demand over supply.

As a European living in North America, my only comments would be to dump Daewoo and hire new car designers - I think the new GM models are just plain butt ugly and incredibly boring. Yes Toyota and Hyundai sell boring looking cars too, but theirs at least have some style and don't look like cheap Korean knock offs.

Also, improve quality, sign an agreement with Honda to use their drivetrains/engines, get rid of the old push rod technology, use 5/6 speed auto transmissions. And finally, get rid of Pontiac and reduce the number of brands and models. Sell SAAB back to Sweden (hey, maybe Ford want them). Consider getting rid of Saturn as the quality is poor and they have zero style.

While I certainly understand the desire to move the metal and have a year-end clearance, the red-tag sale is yet another "band-aid" for GM's long-term problems.

If GM would have made the tough choices to reduce excess production capacity years ago, you wouldn't have to have these silly-a** sales events every few months.

No, instead GM launched a pricing jihad, meant to show GM's power in the market. All it has done is to reduce market share by 5 pts in the last five years and further reduce GM's perception in the marketplace.

Jeez, LaNeve, you sport a lot of attitude for someone who's results are mediocre.

Forget about pensions, health care, supplier relations, and all the other stuff. You're struggling with the basics. Do you really think it sends a positive signal to announce "value pricing" and follow it with "red tag" super duper discounts? Ask your engineers to do a root cause analysis on THAT one.

I want GM to be hugely successful. Problem is, I don't want a GM car. You know, I walked past a G6 and a LaCrosse. Nice lookin' cars, but I'm not going to test drive either one. I can't see the point. Your pricing schemes have ruined any faith in resale values. You haven't built (and aren't building) an image I want to buy into. And you haven't built a reputation for product characteristics such as quality, safety, or performance. Sure, your cars are good, but that's not enough.

Mr. LaNeve,

If GM spent half as much on ways to get new models to market faster as it does to promote the latest deal, it would be much better off.

Why the GLACIAL pace on new models like the Camaro? If Toyota can get new cars to market in less than 2 years in Japan's highly competitive market, WHY can't GM do the same in the U.S. when it's survival is at stake?

Let us not complain! The car company is giving us discount. Take advantage of it! Who cares what the promotion is called.

A wise businessman told me, "Look once you sign the paper and you drive the car off the lot its value drops by $5,000 no matter what you're driving." Look a car is not real-estate, its not an investment get over it. What, do you want to make a profit?

GM sales worldwide are up 3% exploding in China where they are now #1, they have one of the fastest growing car companies in Daewoo and Chevy is about to take the sales crown from Ford, this in a bad year.

It's just its home market that is giving it headaches and I can see why. You can test drive a Solstice all you want measure out the trunk do whatever you want just know that that Solstice is spoken for as are the next 30,000. And they brought it without a test drive so get in line.

Sales are a necessary evil. Colleges raise the price to $30,000 per semester but who pays the whole thing? Well they know some rich foreign student will so why not and for prestige.

Don't worry GM by next year all these bloggers will be asking you for advice.

Take my advice and they will be standing in line for Buicks.

If your real motivation is, as you say, to drive showroom traffic, then why are you using something as tacky as a "Red Tag" sale. This sort of gimmick does nothing to enhance the perceived quality of GM products; in fact it devalues them to the point where it seems like our products are sold like furniture. Customers won't come into the showroom unless there's a "huge sale." Why not some other promotion like celebrity appearances, free oil changes or the "hot button" thing you ran last year? If your new products are as good as you say (and I believe they are), then they should sell on their own merits once customers experience them, without a "Red Tag."

Couple simple things GM needs to do.

1. Be as reliable as Toyota / Honda

2. Have as much RESALE as the above.

All I hear is we need new designs, looks, car names bla bla bla. Well, CIVIC just took the 2006 car of the year. How long has that car name been arround.

I have had many brands of cars, and when it comes to reliability, my Accord and 4runner take the cake as far as reliability and resale.

I see GM blaming cost of labour here as part of the problem. Well here in Canada, Toyota and Honda pay the same pay as GM, how come they can make it?

Go into a Toyota dealer, check out the attitude of the worker. You will find some of the answers there.

It is a hard situation. GM seems to be doing a lot of things correct right now; true they should have done it 3 years ago, but none the less they are doing a lot right in the last 6 months.

The Sale's they have do move "the metal" no question, and I think they do get people buying who would or could not do so otherwise for a year or two in the future .. So 1) GM Cannot afford to wait at this point, 2) It gets their product into the hands of people who, horrors, did buy because of the "sale" and low price (they need the mix of emotion and pricing; as pricing alone will make Toyota people just think "cheap" and not "value"). So I have talked to several people who have GM cars now, and yes the price got them, but they all said they were very surprised by the quality and value after driving the vehicles.

So we have a couple things. First, GM needs to get people driving and buying their cars, perhaps at all cost. Second, they are scared to drop the price "officially" because import buyers are not mainly moved by pricing but more by (partial) irrational emotion (brand loyalty .. put a Toyota label on a stick and they will love it). In fact pricing makes them think something is lacking as they have been told over and over that Toyota quality costs more (in reality Toyota has much lower costs to build a vehicle; they just have more margin).

Finally, GMs options get really hard when the clock is ticking on them getting their business turned around. They cannot wait for "time" to lead to people's perceptions changing. They have to get cars into people's hands so that -- yes, the quality is not up to Lexus quality, but gosh darnit, it is about 95% there and the buyer can put the extra $15,000 (plus tax) saved into a RSP, or have $15,000 (plus tax) less debt amortized over many years.

So not a good thing the high MSRP .. it drove me away from GM; I went with Chrysler only because they showed the discounted price online for years (finance price versus cash price). I ended up with a 2005 ONLY because the employee pricing made a new car purchase make sense a year or two earlier then I planned -- also my neice needed a car.

I just hope GM can get their whole pension situation settled, so they can compete on a level playing field with the "import brands".

The Torrent is a great example of GM futlility....let's make a suv that vaguely resembles a BMW X5 but let's equip it with a p.o.s. aging V6, lackluster interior and boring, smallish (non dub) wheels...

I root so hard for GM to break out of it's long funk, yet I just don't see any signs that the right people and attitudes are in place.

A few years ago I never would have considered a GM, too many quality issues. Then I had a Buick Century as a rental for a few weeks, and was impressed with how well it did what it was made for. And 34 mpg highway in a big car was really impressive! My dad liked it, so he went out and bought one.

Next summer I'll be buying a new car, and I like the Pontiac Vibe / Toyota Matrix twins. I actually like the Vibe a bit better, so am trying to overcome my anti-GM feelings. It helps that Dad has had good service from his car. And the Employee pricing deal last summer meant the price of my "build your own" on the web site went from MSRP of $21000 to under $16000. I would never even consider this car for $21K, but for under $16K I would have bought one that day (but I'm living over seas and won't be back in the US until next summer). Now the same car is MSRP at $18700, but red-tagged at $17800. And while I appreciate the lower MSRP, the red-tag is only $900 off, and I know GM will go lower, because 3 months ago they did!

So, what does this car cost? $20K? $16K? $18K? Will it be $14K next month? My point is, I don't trust ANY number on this car anymore, and this makes me doubt my trust in the car itself and in the company. What is GM trying to hide by playing all these games? I have enough reservations about buying a GM already, but this kind of musical-chairs pricing makes it even harder to feel like I can trust the company.

I've got better things to do than look for the red-tag, blue-light, good-neighbor discount with extra rebate if you know the password kind of sales gimmicks. If you want to sell me a car, be straight with the car. Be straight with the price.

I think I'll go buy a Scion. At least they're honest about their prices. And I'll take honest over red-tags or blue-lights, thank you.

You know considering how much GM has been touting its improvements. I don't see what's taking you so long to offer a better warranty.

There is this company out there called Hyundai. I remember not too long ago how people wouldn't buy a Hyundai no matter how cheap they were because they were bad quality. Hyundai's seems to be doing a lot better now a days and a big reason for their now decent market acceptance is they put out what at first everyone said was an insane 10 year warranty. Seems to have worked out fine for them. They seem to have even built a better Accord then Honda now (the Sonata). Talk about value.

If GM is building such great cars back it up with a warranty that says you believe it too.

And I do think GM is building some pretty good cars. I think the public is hearing GM talk the talk, but they're waiting for you to walk the walk.

I find it interesting that GM is closing the Saturn Plant in Tennessee. For the longest time, Saturn has said it's not part of GM. I guess they will really not longer be 'part' of GM now.

It is NEVER a good idea to bring out a new model year vehicle and put a rebate on it. NEVER. "Here's the price we should get for it, but we don't think we can get that, so here's some money back." That insults your own product. Come on, it isn't rocket science. Lower the MSRP before you bring out the vehicle. Instead of all the advertising dollars you waste with the "Our cars are crap, buy one and we'll give you a load of cash!" campaigns you roll out every other month, you could try advertising that makes your products look good. GM cars ARE better than the competitors, in many ways. But the customer doesn't hear that from you. He hears, "If you buy one of these awful vehicles, we'll bribe you!" Dressing it up in a new slogan every month (Red Tag this time), doesn't fool your customers, it insults them. That's no way to sell a product.

I know. The customers won't buy the cars without the rebates, they'll wait for the next inevitable round of rebates (your own fault there). But if you want the downward spiral to stop, you're gonna have to just suffer through a couple of low sales months. Until the customer can believe that you actually mean it this time.

Hyundai is working harder than you to increase market share and build great cars.

I feel so sorry for you, GM.

"When all is said and done, our latest promotion is about getting people in GM showrooms to see, touch and test drive really great products."

Absolutely true. I had not purchased a GM vehicle for over 20 years. This year I was in the market for a new truck. I read all the "reviews." GM was a contender--but barely--until I actually drove the various makes.

Hands down, the GMC Canyon provided the best driving experience. I purchased one and have been thrilled with it. Built like a tank, the best fit and finish of any vehicle I have ever owned, great performance and one all-around tough truck.

I would never have discovered this had I not actually gone to a GMC dealer and driven the Canyon.

One more thing: I will never buy another vehicle that does not have On-Star. It is unbelievable.

Bruce Sherman
Oakland, Oregon

Some of the problem lies with the GM dealers. I just have trouble trusting them. I went and looked at a C6 about a year and a half ago. The price was MSRP + 10k "market adjustment"....I laughed at the salesguy. I then went and bought a BMW M3. I recently went to look at the Pontiac Solstice....price MSRP + 5k "market adjustment". Just a few days ago, I went to a Saturn Dealer to ask about the Sky, the price was MSRP...that's it. So I put down my deposite that day as a pre-order.

GM should adopt Saturn's price strategy, a set price. Maybe offer a gimmick in the form of financing, but the blatant attempts by "stealerships" to gouge prices on models just gives me a bad taste and a bad view of GM as a whole.

Oh, and the discussion about adding to the warranty...definately! Heck isn't that what Chrysler is offering in their current promotion?

Jim said:
"I think I'll go buy a Scion. At least they're honest about their prices. And I'll take honest over red-tags or blue-lights, thank you."

Did you know Jim, that when you go to trade in your Scion that all those "customizations" (i.e. pretty much every option) won't be included in the trade-in price? I have a friend who bought a tC only about 6-9 months ago, and he went to look at Carmax at an RX-8. The trade-in offer was like half of what he paid because of all the options. Bet Toyota/Scion doesn't tell you that when they talk you into spending $22k on your tC instead of $15k.

Wow, sorry to hear about the huge changes you guys are making and the lost jobs. I understand and I have said many times that you will have to do what you are now doing to move forward. The product is good, people need to see that. Good luck!

Considering the strong possibility of an impending strike at Delphi which will effectively shut most GM plants for the duration of that strike, perhaps a Red Tag sale at this time is a bad idea.

Do you really want to clear out inventories at dealerships at sale prices when you face the possibility of a shortage of critical vehicles if a Delphi stike occurs?

Why not let the inventories sit on the ground that you can sell at the actual value added price, as well as providing your dealers something to sell in the event of a Delphi strike instead of moving them now and leaving the dealers with the possibility that they won't have anything to sell at all in the next couple of months?

I understand that at some plants you are actually increasing production, including adding shifts to cover this possibility, so why go to that extra expense while at the same time reducing your profitability on the vehicles you already have in inventory?

Greg

The fact that you won't answer the questions of longer warranties and no-haggle pricing makes me think you have something to hide... Or are 3 year warranties "just the way it is"? The industry is passing you by, and we're all sitting here scratching our heads wondering why you don't do anything about it.

I can just picture it... 10 years ago, your predecessors sitting around the lavish conference room, saying things like:
"No one will ever offer more than a 3 year warranty, that's just the way it is."
"Artifically inflated MSRPs are just the way things are done, and we're not going to change it."
"Customers don't care about quality, they just want cheap!"

Meanwhile, your Asian counterparts are questioning how they can make the overall ownership experience better, rather than be happy with business as usual.

The last three months I was shopping for a new car- a Cobalt (which would be faster than my Focus ZX3, the 2.2 Ecotect is much stronger than the 2.0 in the Focus); or a Malibu 4 cylinder, the 18K price tage looked like a good starting point and this car would be larger and quieter for me; or an Impala, the car I really wanted, but it starts at nearly $22k.

Unfortunately none of the GM rebates then, or right now, are very significant - only $1,000. I played the game - a GM Card with a $1,000 built up on it - but still the Malibu was a little too pricey (plus scarce).

Then the Red Tag sale came out. Great, I thought. But the dealer showed me the numbers, and they were worse than buying over the internet at "invoice." And the rebates were still light - only $1,000, not $2k or $2.5k or $3k.

In comparison, in Northern California Toyota dealers are constantly advertising $17-18k (or even lower) "ad specials" on Camry LE's, and Honda Accords are also very competitive. AND, based on my past experience, they over-allow on trades instead of moaning about my trade being "back of book" like at every Chevy dealer I visited.

Overall, GM is just not being as competitive as I would like. I am willing to pay a little extra for repairs, and take a hit on depreciation, but only if the cars are cheaper than Japanese cars. In reality, the Japanese cars can be cheaper than American cars.

I don't think the product is the problem for GM, right now, or their technology, a lot of it is great, it is that (1) they have a lot of older dealers that aren't pulling their weight - old lots, not much product and (2) GM is being beat on the marketing game by the Japanese!

True, GM hit home runs with 0% financing, big rebates, and Employee Pricing, but they CAN'T wait out two months of disastrous sales (like they just did) before coming out with another event - that's a sure recipe for disaster.

I have to laught when people say "stop discounting the cars!". EVERYTHING is on sale in America now, sales start on Thanksgiving, not after Christmas, we are the Walmart nation, and GM needs to get back to that and give the imports a run for the money.

It's all about the details, and NEVER giving up.

So the Lansing Craft Centre (small plant that builds the SSR) is on the chopping block, even though it was recently refurbished throughout. Turns out the sales just aren't there for that vehicle. Whodathunkit!

At the same time Camaro afficionados are practically begging GM to offer a new Camaro.

If GM doesn't have the cash or resources to design and develop the car, why not let outside investors take on the Camaro project under a new partnership? Many parts would likely come from the GM parts bin which would help the struggling Delphi Corp.

The arrangement would be cash-flow nuetral to GM, and perhaps save a lot of money that would otherwise be spent decomisioning the Lansing Plant.

The muscle car enthusiasts would be estatic, GM could cash in on the Camaro brand equity, The plant in Lansing would stay open, and the media buzz would be overwhelming.

These are desperate times at GM. Try something bold.

James, I see your points re: the 3500/3900 V-6.

However, while these pushrod designs have decent fuel economy, it comes at the expense of horsepower and refinement.

Mark:

A number of commentors (including myself) keep returning to warranties. GM should consider the follwing announcement:

"GM beleives in it's products and wants buyers to come back. So here's our deal:

1) MSRP's have been lowered to reflect red tag/toe tag, employee prices, and they will STAY there.

2) We believe in our cars enough that we will offer a 10 year warranty. That's so you can have confidence in GM products. We will stand by our customers.

Thank you for supporting GM."

I think all of these comments can be pretty much summed up as follows:

If General Motors itself doesn't believe in the quality and value of its products, it's going to be impossible to get potential customers to do so.

How to fix this?

It all comes down to simple honesty.

Extend the warranties. A PR campaign saying your cars are reliable is meaningless without an extended warranty to back it up. As Ronald Reagan once said, "Trust, but verify." If the Koreans can offer 10yr 100k mile warranties here in America, there's no reason an AMERICAN manufacturer like GM can't do so as well. Almost every regular reader and poster on this board would like to buy a GM car. That said, many of us have owned, currently own, or know someone who owns, a 4 or 5 year old GM car that spends an inordinate amount of time in the shop. Hearing a close friend complain about spending hundreds or thousands of dollars in repairs for a car that should still have a long life ahead of it does more to dissuade potential buyers than any PR campaign could do to attract them.

SO COME ON GM, EXTEND THE WARRANTIES!

If you really make well made cars, then an extended warranty shouldn't cost very much. If, on the other hand, the extended warranty program is expensive, it will be pretty obvious pretty quickly that GM wasn't exactly being truthful about making reliable cars.

People WANT to own GM cars, they just don't want to feel like suckers for doing so. Extending the warranty for several extra years would do a lot to take the "sucker factor" out of the equation.

Similarly, get your pricing straight. Giving us employee pricing / value pricing was a good start, but following this up with "red tag" specials totally destroyed any sense of trust we might have had in GM.

Come on GM, again with the HONESTY! Seriously, it's not like GM dealers are known as bastions of veracity, but it sure would help if GM HQ could get its story straight.

GM is obviously a company managed by beancounters, since no company run by car enthusiasts would make so many clone minivans and overweight front drivers and so few cars with stick shift and rwd and 4 wheel independent suspension.

That being the case, it shouldn't be hard for you all to figure out a rock-bottom price for each car. Not a fake "value" price that will then be lowered 90 days later, but the be-all, end-all, ROCK BOTTOM NO HAGGLE NO FUTURE LOWER PRICE BEST POSSIBLE DEAL PRICE for each of your cars. Once you've got that figured out, then make the dealers sell it for that price.

HONESTY, it's like PR, only better.

If you say you build reliable cars, then back it up with a longer warranty.

If you say you're offering the best price for a car, make sure you're not going to give a better price a few months later.

Honesty - it's a good start.

(A new Camaro with a stick shift, V8, and 4 wheel independent suspension, for less than $25k wouldn't hurt either.)

Let me see if I have this correct: 1)GM has recorded a FOUR BILLION DOLLAR LOSS for year to date; 2)30,000 GM employees are about to lose their jobs, and 9 GM plants are being shuttered; 3) Toyota, Honda, Nissan, et.al. are eating GM's lunch, dinner, and dessert; and 4) GM stock prices and credit ratings are getting a hammering unlike few have ever seen before.

Okay...

And the only thing GM can think of to do is offer ANOTHER Red Tag/Employee Discount/Rebate/Fire Sale to move the iron. BRILLIANT! Don't worry about changing the inept, myopic management. Think nothing about designing and building quality cars and trucks that are the envy of the world. Foresight? Vision? Ambition? Let someone else deal with that. Just continue to do what you've always done, and pretty soon GM will reap the benefits of such avant-garde thinking: each GM division will become a subsidiary of the New Big Three -- Toyota, Honda, and Nissan. Good Show, gentlemen! Good show! Way to destroy a once-great company!

I'm being highly sarcastic, of course, but there is a large grain of truth to what I'm saying, if you guys are willing to acknolwedge it. GM is on the verge of expiring, and no one seems capable of doing what it takes to stop this madness. COME ON, PEOPLE! WAKE UP! What is it going to take? DON'T YOU GUYS GET IT YET?

WOW!

Someone at GM who actually takes their head out of the sand, and LISTENS!!!

I don't care if I don't agree with everything he says, but at least he responds to the GP.

Keep up the good work Mark! You are definitely one of the shining lights of the corporation.

GM is the #1 automobile manufacturer in the world. Here and now, we are the best-selling auto maker. We are losing ground, so let's build cars that the world wants and do it cost-effectively. Sales makes the world go around. Unite and don't be complacent or defeatus.

Blogers,
If GM comes out with a longer warranty the rest of the majors would follow within two days! So what have they gained Higher expence without a competitive advantage! Look and compare warranties. Other than the Koreans and the highlines, GM has a better warranty than Toyota,Nissan or Honda.

As a previous owner of GM products I can second the motion that all these fire sales are not bringing in new customers.
I bought both a pontiac and a gmc are a good price in 2000. Then GM started w/ its fire sales, and what my resale value plummeted. When I traded in my grand-am in 2003 it was worth $2500.- (over 10K less, or approx 75%)
Traded in the truck soon after that and now we own 2 toyotas. Love the reliability and resale value. Loked up the value of my truck recently and after 2 years it only lost about $3K of the price (like 20%).

The other big problem is dealers. Service simply sucks. I've taken my cars to 4 different dealers. Each time they'd have approx $500.- worth of repairs they'd recommend. Heck the most expensive regular service on my camry isn't even $300.- and that is only every 2 years!
Fix your dealer network and make them trustworthy!

Mark,
Just another opinion in agreement with a couple of things already mentioned. Firt, the ridiculous pricing schemes have to end. I purchased a 2004 Avalanche that stickered at $42,000, I ended up paying $32,500, and this was before the employee discounts. Also, I know there are people that did better. How can you expect a consumer to be enthused about purchasing a vehicle when there is such illogical fluctuation in the selling price on a MAJOR purchase. Heck, half the time when I buy a vehicle I'm just trying to not get ripped off. Sell the car for what it's worth, stabilize the resale, and I'll be there.
Second, I agree with the warranty thing. If your vehicles are so reliable and the quality is so great.....put your money where your mouth is. Give us 5 year/60,000 mile bumper to bumper and 10/100,000 powertrain. I just purchased a 2006 Hyundai Sonata. My first so called "foreign" vehicle ever, partly because of this. This helped me take the leap along with the test drive. My wife and I average a new car purchase about every 2 1/2 years, one of these is always a truck, and it annoys the crap out of me that I spend $30,000+ and 2 years later (I put a lot of miles on my trucks), you guys say fix it yourself. That is the main reason why I am now selling the avalanche. I've had to many issues and my warranty is already up. You can bet I won't be buying another avalanche or silverado.

When americans get smart they will start buying american cars and other producte and save there jobs. I always buy G M products

Total Value Promise = more BS form GM.

Mr LaNeve
Why can’t you understand that you can’t promise value and then drop the price. It’s basic stuff you can’t sell a value price G6 for $18,000 and then cut the price to $16,000 your screwing the people who bought the “value priced” G6.

When Red Tag ends sales are going to drop even more then they did after the Employee Discount because you’ve proved that anyone who buys a GM car when it’s not on sale is a moron.

You have to lower the price and keep it low it’s the only way your going to get consistent sales.

Unless GM recognizes its "vibe". It's easily demonstrated lack of a vision and/or intent of making cars that excite and cause admiration for their looks and technology it will keep shrinking as well as keeping me from buying one.

How will they gain me as a customer? For starters, just give me engines I can compare to the offerings from Toyota (i.e. direct injection 306 hp from a 3.5), Honda, Nissan, BMW.

Create cars that are aesthetically pleasing or that have, at the very least, the standard that no GM car will get a boring yawn when looked at. The Solstice should be the Pontiac Standard.

Just let me feel I am not buying an "old" car when I am supposedly buying a new one.

If that occurs the absence of a Red Tag Sale won't make a bit of difference.

Sincerely,

Luis

So I'm in the market for a midsize sedan, and the one holding my inside track right now is the new Hyundai Sonata, which I've already driven and seems to be everything I've heard about and then some. The Pontiac G-6 was an early favorite, but after driving one it seemed rather narrow inside, the interior was a sea of varying shades of grey and the pushrod 3.5 sure didn't move the car like 200 horsepower should've.

For some reason though, I keep looking at the Chevy Equinox as the only SUV alternative to the midsize sedan I'm in the market for; the Ford Escape is too small and the Explorer too big & expensive. I checked the web sites (including Chevy's own) for info, and here are my impressions (though I haven't driven one yet):

-- It's nice that Chevy has finally gotten off its kick about how you don't seem to deserve body-colored bumpers unless you spring for the higher-priced version; nice way to insult a prospect who was only interested in the base model.

-- This is a fairly large small car; yet the General gives you an old pushrod 3.4 with 185 hp when most of the other small SUVs for the same money give you at least 200. Hey General, if you insist on using a pushrod engine whose tooling was paid off at least 20 years ago, how about at least using the Buick 3800 with its 215-220 hp? How much more would that have really cost you -- $25 per car? $50?

-- Likewise with the brakes. Most of the other SUVs (and the Hyundai Sonata I mentioned earlier) include 4-wheel discs as standard; again the General cheaped out and used drum brakes in the rear. Five years ago I wouldn't have minded, but these days it makes me wonder what other corners were cut to save a couple bucks.

-- Finally, I love a car that plays MP3s right from the factory; I have close to 1700 songs on my home computer and would love to not have to take my new car to BestBuy to have an aftermarket MP3 stereo put in like I did with my Honda. The Sonata has one STANDARD, even in the base model. (The Sonata would've been my lead candidate anyway, but that was a very nice touch which counts for extra points with me).

The Equinox? The General says I can't have an MP3 stereo if I choose the base model, even as an OPTION. I need to cough up the extra dough for the high-line version and even THEN, I 'll still have to pay extra to get it as an option.

Lastly, even if I somehow get past all those things and decide that the Equinox is the one for me, I then have to wonder what is the General's real best price? I thought they were gonna price their cars more reasonably when they got off of the Employee-discount-for-all gimmick; now we have a Red-tag deal going on and there's STILL some wiggle room as to what the real price is. What happened to Value-pricing? What happened to listing the cars closer to the real-world prices?

One thing about buying a Honda, Toyota or a Hyundai; you may not get as much knocked off of their list prices but you at least know that you paid pretty close to what everyone else paid. It would really chap my hide if I was stupid enough to pay close to sticker for a GM car and then three months later find I could've gotten the same car for three grand less if I had waited.

Although I haven't owned a GM car in close to 30 years, I don't have anything against them and would still give them an honest chance if they offered a real alternative to the other cars I was looking at. The problem is, I'm not willing to pay more or to accept an inferior product just to save an overpaid, underworked spoiled union worker's job in Detroit. The Hyundai Sonata is built in Georgia, so I'm still buying American as far as I'm concerned. I'm just not willing to be a chump to do it.

Mr. LaNeve: It’s good to see some real passion from another GM executive; I knew that Bob Lutz could not be the only one at GM. This has to be a record response on this Blog - 52 Comments in the first day, there are some interesting comments and it is very obvious that some of the respondents have not been near a GM dealer in over 10 years. As you quite rightly point out the newly introduced and future GM product is very promising and does address many issues that have been mentioned. The CTS and STS have excellent power and road manners and the Equinox, Torrent and VUE are solid, economical SUVs and even though the Silverado/Sierra is the oldest design on the market it is still competitive – the Sierra Denali maybe the best on the market.
The Sierra Denali is a good example of GM product few consumers are aware of, most people know of the Yukon Denali but few are aware of the Sierra model, they are missing out on a great product.

Unfortunately many consumers say they are giving GM products a fair chance when looking for a new vehicle but few do it. It is amazing how many consumers do not believe that GM has quality as good as anyone in the industry – even Consumer Reports is giving GM credit for good quality products. If you could get the truth out of Honda or Toyota owners you would find that although both make good products, they are nowhere near as trouble free as consumers think – friends that work at dealer service departments for these and other foreign makes and tell me the real stories (Toyota sludge engines to name one of hundreds).

I have purchased four GM products since 1998, still have two of them and sold the others to friends – they still have them and say they are the best vehicles they have owned. I did not have a single problem with either vehicle and in both cases replaced them with higher contented models. I am seriously considering buying my 5th GM vehicle but haven’t decided which vehicle to replace.

A review of your “Value Pricing” shows that you are very close on most models (HHR, Malibu, Impala, Cobalt, Monte Carlo and Gran Prix) and could still do some tweaking to others (G6, LaCrosse and Colorado), but even the misses are not as bad as they use to be, and are mostly content/option mix more than anything. I am confident that you will work diligently on all of your products and have a quick, effective solution. As for having a Red Tag sale at the end of the year – has GM (or any retailer) ever NOT had a year end sale?

I think you are on the right track and within the next 18 months should have the pricing/content problems in hand and the new products will be on the market. I know you are doing a good job and will be putting my money into a new GM product.
Thanks for your time and there are many of us out here that are in your corner and understand that problems this big are not fixed overnight.

Bring the Captiva to the US in its current form, and upgrade the Equinox to Captiva standards and make some money without fire sales

I think where they need the Red Tag sale should be in upper executive management quadrant. NOT YOU, MARK!!!

I love my Chevy truck. I get my Chevy truck serviced through the dealership. I keep my Chevy truck in excellent condition. I don't need the flood of letters from the dealership telling me about wonderful trade-in values when the aren't.

Dear GM,
Please stop with the fire sale programs. I work at Ford and every time that you give your products away, we have to follow somewhat. All it does is reduce the preceived value of our products and train our customers to wait for the next big deal. Our sales cycles keep booming and busting.

I would love GM to bring out the 10 year powertrain warranty and lay off the rebates some. If you have to reduce your total value price some, to make customer really believe you then you need to. Ford would have to match it. If Hyundai can, why not the biggest company in the world! Ford would have to follow. Like most companies, the more we measure something, the better it improves. If GM had to pay for a trans failure at 99,999 miles, it would get improved. Right now, you really don't know. Some of that is probably reflected in your resale value too.
Chrysler tried it with the 7 year, but didn't even match Hyundai's program. Make sure the customers understand upfront that if they don't do some type of reasonable maintainence (8-9K Oil Change) engine warranty is voided.

I worked at GM Powertrain Milford and know how good your team really is. Good luck. Once you come out with boldly styled products, then things will get better (ever?). The new SUV's have good interiors, but the exterior is still a little bland. Promote the Soltice designer, that is awesome and just they type of style GM needs badly.

I had owned two previous Chevy cars in addition to my current 1993 Chevy truck with 161K miles (the others had between 160k and 200k miles when sold RUNNING) and have been extrememly happy with GM products and intend to purchase only GM products forever.

I do not understand peoples' insistence on OHC engines. If the OHV engine runs reliably and efficiently, what the h**l does it matter of it's of old 'pushrod' design? Don't worry about those customers GM because they will never be happy ('my GM seats sucked compared to Honda even though they did have a OHC engine'). The Ecotec, 3100, 3800, and especially truck engines are class leading. I own a Ford car with OHC. Not impressed.

I would like to see some changes in GM cars.
-iPod connectors in all cars. How about an Aux-in line as well?
-Less option packages and more a-la-carte deals. I'd like to get a new Silverado with cloth, vinyl floor, automatic ac, pw/pl, and auto-trac 4x4. It's impossible to get auto-trac 4x4 without carpet floor that would be ruined in short order.
-Dealers who are honest. I hate even looking at cars because of the non-stop games. They just look to rip-off people especially on trade ins. If I ever buy a new car again it will be from an internet dealer who will bring the car to my house, pick up my cash payment, and leave. I don't care if it costs me $500 more- it's worth it.

Get rid of all the dealers. Sell cars direct or on the internet. Set up central shops for warranty work.

I was looking as some GM vehicles, and comparing them to Toyota's. I don't think that I will buy from GM. The cost of GM's vehicles are inflated by jobs banks that pay people who will never work again because GM sends them a welfare check with full benefits. I don't see why this should be added to the price of a vehicle I pay for. Ending the jobs banks is another way for GM to get competitive. I would love to know how much extra the jobs banks add to GM's vehicles. I don't feel like paying for people who are sitting around all day and getting paid to do nothing. Toyota has some great vehicles, and I won't be paying for GM's ridiculous overhead, and its ridiculous agreements with the UAW. All of these things turn customers off.

In reply to Margaret Sullivan

Margaret if you purchase a UAW produced vehicle you are also contributing to an organization that is Socialist and borderline Communist.Go to UAW affilliated sites such as
www.futureoftheunion.com and look at the links to the Socialist labor party,World socialist website.etc.etc.So buy a GM product and support this.I will not buy until the UAW is brought under control

OK, enough already! from the folks out there bashing GM, and the execs. who put their self out there to be "smacked around". Go back and take a look at the product GM had 10 years ago, even 5 years ago and compare it to what is being offered now by the GM brands, Wow! what a difference there is.

When I read this I was shocked. Look, the management is the ones driving the ship and who is paying the price for them driving into the ice berg? 30k employess. Now I dont want to bash but I think there should be a 100 to 500 extra bodies thrown under the bus. Those are the upper management at GM. The workers are pretty darn smart and build what they are told to build. Sad thing is what they have been told to build makes no sense.
With gas over $2 for ever and the need for the country to get off forgien energy in a messed up world GM offers FAT 20 MPG cars. Well DUH..
What did they expeect would happen. Instead of moving forward into the new alternative energy era and being brave like Toyota they are LEFT IN THE DUST smoking fat cigars and playing fiddles while GM burns to the ground. You better let the tech guys run the show for a while like the did in the 70's when you became to big and slow for your own good and almost lost the company then.
What a BIG mess.
hybrid is not important right?
Getting over 30MPG isnt important right? Keep saying that while your metal rusts in your lots and dealers will go broke holding onto it.
I seem to see a lot of dealer posts here. You guys are drinking special Jamestown Koolaid too?

Bob

Interesting perspective and push on "why". Just because an incentive has helped in the past may not mean it works in the future, especially given the state of affairs. Look at the airlines - their in a world of hurt and yet one blows discount fares and the rest have to follow. One gets a cold and the rest must get it - it weakens the entire domestic industry.

For Red Tag - as noted in http://blogs.edmunds.com/.ee8d499 Luceren and Solstice aren't included so it's a luring advance.

Is it just me, or did Chevy truck sales begin to decline right after you stopped the 'Like a Rock' commercials?

I suggest you bring it back.

My family had always bought GM vehicles, but they do not any longer. My parents loved Oldsmobile, which many auto experts thought should have been saved, and the Oldmobiles that my parents had performed superbly, and their vehicles got a lot of city driving, which we all know is very hard on cars, and they never had any major repairs at all. Now that Oldsmobile is gone, both my parents went out and bought Toyotas, so they will not be coming back to GM. Also, I have been looking at Toyota and GM. I do like some GM vehicles, but since Dephi is in bankruptcy and the workers may strike, this is a mess for GM. How can I feel confident that GM can deliver when it can't even guarantee that its parts will be delivered on time? Also, if Delphi strikes, GM will burn through a great deal of its cash, and I don't feel confident spending a lot of money on a vehicle from a company that may go into bankruptcy. I don't care what Wagoner says. There are many people, including myself, who have grave concerns about buying from GM because of its extremely poor financial situation. While I like some GM vehicles very much, I also see quite a few Toyota vehicles that I live very much too, and Toyota is a very healthy company. My parents, former GM customers, are now satisfied Toyota customers. I haven't made my decision yet, but Toyota is looking like the place where I will be buying my next car.

I forgot to add to my post, that GM forgot about the customer, the people who used to buy your vehicles and generate your profits. Now you give them away, and this time it's called a "red tag sale." It shows you are just trying to push inventory out the door. Forget the customer, and you can forget the profits. You will have a long road back to bring back angry former GM customers, assuming GM survives at all.

"but there I go selling again"

Bob, Why not sell an EXPERIENCE rather than just another hunk of metal?

I may never buy another GM car because once the metal's out the door, that's it. The GM support after the sale, either in useful addons (not stupidly useless bling bling), or in service department training and expertise, remains _sadly_ lacking and has gone stale for myself and folks I know.

Surprise us, Bob. Do something truely innovative with the total car ownership experience rather than just shove product out the door! Give us a REAL reason to come back!

Wes was asking about what the big deal was with pushrod vs. OHC engines; well, I'll take a stab at explaining it. Using an out-of-date engine is symptomatic of the pinch-penniness of GM, just as it is by the continued use of disc/drum brakes and four-speed automatics when most of the competition has moved on to four-wheel discs and five-speed automatics. This is a sign that the corporation has abandoned any pretense of building truly competitive vehicles except in the most superficial areas; aiming instead for “just good enough” in every category that matters.

I dare say if GM had had this mentality back in the late 40's, Pontiac and Oldsmobile would've never gotten OHV V8's; sticking instead with their existing flathead engines until people simply wouldn't consider them anymore. And it's happening now! Why would I pay the money for a Pontiac G6 when the same amount or even a little less would buy, let's say, a Hyundai Sonata? (I know, you're thinking Hyundai is a bottom-feeder brand, but let's look at the Sonata for a minute as I'm considering one myself).

The G6 has a 3.5L pushrod (there's that word again) V-6 engine with 200 hp. The V-6 Sonata has a 3.3 DOHC with 230 hp. Transmissions? G6 – 4-speed auto. Sonata – 5-speed auto. Brakes? G6 – Disc/Drum. Sonata – Disc/Disc. The Sonata is much roomier, and has more hip & shoulder room. Warranty? G6 – 3 yr/36,000 mi. Sonata – 10 yr/100,000 mi. on powertrain.

So at least on paper the Hyundai is more than competitive with the Pontiac, and it's built in Alabama by U.S. workers. Hyundai has been moving fast up the dependability charts as well; according to Consumer Reports it's right behind Toyota & Honda now.

So don't you think if GM intends for us to take their cars seriously, it had better start offering a more modern, up-to-date product instead of the same old wine in new bottles?

How about a promotion where people could donate their GM Card points so GM modified vehicles for the handicapped could be donated to soldiers who were wounded in Iraq.

I'd be the 1st to donate my $2,200 points for such a good cause.

-Tim

This would be my strategy if I am locked into my present dealer system.

1) Go "no haggle" across the board. Get the sticker prices down for comparison shopping. Emphasis to be placed that the price is always the best price and it will not change in the future. What you see is what you pay.
2) Provide 100% free service for 3 years or 50,000 miles. The only exception would be tires. And clearly state that. Care free driving.
3) Use gimmicks but don't mess with the fixed low price. What about car payments every two weeks? It may make it seem like less when in fact it isn't.
4) Kiosk machines at popular venues/locations with free internet access. Sales without bodies.
5)All advertisements should cover product, value, quality, & be fun. Just like a politician, drum it in their head to change perceptions. Every commercial, however it may be, should end with reminding them about items 1 & 2. (Same voice to end all commercials) Quality would then be assumed.

"its clear that GM is back in the car business"

Just one question, if this is the case then when should we expect the new Pontiac Fiero GT and Buick Grand National? I can guarantee that you wouldnt need a red tag to move models like these. The typical previous Pontiac buyer wants a mid engine 2 seater, not a Miata clone. The truth is GM has lost touch with some of its previous car buyers. With the right marketing strategy, things can be turned around. E-mail me to discuss it further.

I got into new car sales 4 months ago. And have retired as of yesterday. Car sales are very tuff business. The only one wandering on to the car lots are people who want to get out of their big truck. And are so upside down. We can't help them. I worked at one of the top 10 Ford dealerships in CA. Which also sold imports. I worked on the import side. Hyundia,isuzu,VW.
Sales across the board on the imports dropped from 25 cars a weekend to 4. No one is buying cars! The market is full! What does this have to do with GM. GM is owner of the ophan. Isuzu. GM builds Isuzu's at the same plant as the Colarodo.An the Trail Blazer. Or the Enovy. But in Isuzu's speak it is called the Asender. A big five or seven passenger vechicial. It comes with better warranty then a Chevy. A 7/year or 75,000 mile warranty. And is cheaper than the Chevy version. People will still buy the Chevy version. Even though is the same company. Stupid! And let me vent on VW. Were in the world did VW think it was BMW? Or Royal Royce? VW does own Royal Royade (example) Phateon.Touage. A $60,000 VW? Who in the world spends That kind of money and brags to his friends he bought a $60,000 VW? Not many. They sit on lot and gather dust. When you explain a $600.00 car payment a month. They kind of leave. A car for the people when away. A lot of people come on to the lot looking a VW. And walk away because of stupid over engineering. The owners manual is the size of "Gone with the wind." The automotive industry is out of touch with the ecomical needs of it buyers. We now need A to B cars. I hope they wake up! We don't need every car commercial of a truck or suv flying throught the air. And landing to save the world. We just need them to get us home safely. And who the h**l drives that way? Except when you rent a car?

1. Summer 'Employee Price For Everyone.'
2. Fall "Value Promise" to avoid rebates.
3. Overtime at plants to build up inventory for Delphi strike.
4. Big rebates come back.
5. Red Tag Sale to reduce inventory.
6. Delphi strike still coming.

What part of this makes sense?? What part isn't 'GM As Usual?' Are you guys just going through the motions till you all retire with your fat bank accounts? I can just hear all you "execs" now: "There was nothing we could do, with the UAW like that..."

GM is going to cut 30,000 jobs. Why? the retirement benefits? The fickle customer? It is products that do not sell well. For example, GM constantly confuses the customer by not producing a new LeSabre but replacing it with something that senior adults do not identify. I know the younger customer needs to be reached but money is money. A 70 year old senior adult's money is the same as a Generation X's money. Note: My Generation X son would not be caught dead in a Buick showroom but my dad would. I remember when GM had 60% market share. If GM had just 30% market share without fire sales, the retirment benefits and profits would not be a problem. To restate a former winning campaign slogan. "It is the product, stupid." As product is in place, develop a marketing plan so that a potential customer like me, who was ready to buy a new Corvette, does not go to a competitor and buy his product as I did. You had the product but your dealers blew it.

"Why the GLACIAL pace on new models like the Camaro?"

To anyone that doesn't realize this.
The Camaro died in 2002. Selling the dirt the factory was on, was more profitable than building and selling the F-Body. The Union (one of the many reasons for GM's demise) deal was, that if they start making another vehicle named the Camaro/Firebird within six years from closing the plant and laying off employees, it must be built at the same plant, with a rehiring of the layed-off employees. This just isn't possible. So, when the firechicken returns, it will be a minimum of 2008.

The f-body, while a mullet clad owner may disagree, was a horribly out-dated waste of fiberglass. Besides, I personally could wait a lifetime to work on one again.

Happy Thanksgiving to all of GM!!!

To the most underestimated, underappreciated and undervalued company of all time.

Now I want you to think about this. People will be lining up tomorrow outside stores to get the hottest sales and products of the year. Top among these is the Xbox 360. An industry that was left for dead in America with imports like the Playstation and Sega in a company Microsoft that just last week analysts were saying was in a midlife crisis. ( I wish I was in a midlife crisis with $100 billion.)

Now consider Pontiac. This is a brand that about half the people are leaving for dead. Then a hot product like the Solstice comes out and people are standing in line. What does this line look like?

-The line is 30,000 people long.

-Some are being told that they will be in this line for up to a year.

-Most, if any of these people have not even got a chance to test drive this car.

I know signing a paper and leaving a deposit is not as exciting as people waiting in line with coats and gloves and setting up tents but this is what is happening so...

CONGRATULATIONS!!!

Now I am going to see my brother-in-law for Thanksgiving, he owns a successful business and he owns a fleet of Chevy and GMC vans. He will ask me again "I need a full bed pick-up when is Hummer coming out with one?" "I don't know for sure," I tell him, "but if that Hummer H3T was out I would be going to the delership with you."

It reminds me of my co-worker who I call Scion's #1 fan even going to a Scion event. He brought in a picture of a Saturn Sky and was showing everyone what he calls his "next car." If we have seen it once we have seen it 1000 times. Every great company with integrity makes a comeback from Microsoft to Harley-Davidson for Kodak to Boing.

Now does this sound like a brand or a company that is dying? These sceptics are the same type of people who were singing the requiem of American industry 10 years ago before it changed the world again with the Silicon Valley.

They just don't understand GM has 9 lives in America and I say keep it that way.

Mark,

Ok. The red tag sale is a good tool for year end sales. However, GM could improve its sales events by emphasizing more than just price. Maybe what you're hearing from us is frustration from GM enthusiats because of a perception that GM doesn't stick up for itself and promote the great products, and just falls back on price ads. GM's Arsenal of engineers and executives just let a few biased loud media and stuffy politicians run rough shod over American business.

Mark, your foreign competition gets away with all kinds of statements on radio ads. I've heard foreign competition car ads on the radio that have phony claims like their products "last forever," and often repeated slogans like "when you think quality think" . . . .

Don't assume that people (or the media)
know about GM's great products. Tell them. GM owners are the ones who are saying GM products are the best in the world. Why not tell them that.

GM hasn't mentioned often enough to the public about the great fuel economy offered by the Impala, (31 mpg) Malibu and G6 (34 mpg).
GM just assumes people know it. Many of the younger set still haven't seen their first G6 yet. GM also assumes people know the new Impala SS offers 300 hp. Many people don't know it.

Image building ads are sorely needed for new products. If you are going to run a price ad it should mention quality. The ads should be more audible, more pleasant, and more focused. The price based ads from GM should lure customers to explore GM quality and discover GM value.
eg.

The RED TAG EVENT IS REAL!!!

- Awarding winning vehicles from GM now at special year end prices.

- GM red tag sale, making quality affordable for the American family. Our gift to you.

- Have you been putting of buying a car because you wanted one with higher quality, but thought you couldn't afford it? Come to the GM red tag sale and experience the savings.

When offering a special price, provide the customer with a reason for the price such as 'year end sale'. Also tell the customer what you are offering at the special price like 'award winning vehicles'.

The essence of value is getting more of what you like for less from someone you trust.

Also, year end sales events are an excellent opportunity to ask for more customer traffic in GM show rooms by offering them a "chance to win" a new 2006 and see the new models.

GM's car sales are up, so some things are going well.

GM execs should not take flap from politicians in Washington either, be more forceful. Politicians in Washington are ones who put America in this mess. And don't listen to what Wall Street says about GM brands. If an off the wall foreign brands can come from no where are get free hype and free adverstising from the biased media, GM ought to demanding the same attention from the media. Tell them that your customers want equal coverage for new GM products and plans. Why is it that GM enthusiasts can read the good news from GM's website, but someone in the media is too biased to type www.GM.com and get informed.

Mark,
After reading your response to the red tag sale, what ever your smoking please get
off of it, i have never
read such blithering propaganda.
i have worked in a GM dealership for over 30 years and i can honestly say your
car lines are pathetic. GET US SOME REAL QUALITY
REAL GOTTA HAVE CARS.

Everyone knows about the bad press GM has gotten recently, and yes the situation at the corporations is not good at all. I know that yall are looking for some quick fixes to stay ahead in market share and make money. I have a few quick solutions to offer that won't cost much and will help out your situation. One major loss for your company is found in the Chevy Colorado, why is there no six cylinder offered in this truck? It is rediculous to market a mid size truck with small engines that can't tow or perform. If you offered six cylinder, and eventually eight cylinder colorados your sales will go up. The Hummer H3 should also have and available six cylinder, once again many Americans don't like buying trucks with under six cylinders, if we did then the Asians would have controlled the truck market a long time ago. Lets all admit, the General's product line up in cars is weak. Boring and repetive products make up the car line up. The only different vehicles yall offer are the Pontiac Solstice and Chevy HHR. And both of those are unpractical cars for most Americans. I understand the need for quick fixes like the new 2004 Malibu and 2006 Monte Carlo and Impala, but yall really need to develop one good car. A rear wheel drive platform will be key to any American company's future, one that can produce high performance, practical, and high valued sedans, coupes, and crossovers. A new high performance, American built Camaro deffinantly wouldn't hurt the corporation nor its image. Hate to say it, but yall came out with a new truck line up at the wrong time, that is the truth. They look to be great trucks, best-in-class, congratulations on that, and run with it. But waste no time trying to revive the rest of your products, product is king in this business, my best wishes for GM's future.

I commend you for talking about a range of topics. Clearly GM needs to rethink a whole bunch of areas. I am in the tech business - execs in our industry which creates blogging tools should emulate you.

I do think your yo yo pricing has hurt you. Wal-Mart's EDLP, Southwest Air's disciplined pricing (they are not always the lowest but coast to coast their highest one way is $ 299 - not greedy like other airlines) has shown you can consistently make money and keep customers loyal.

I wonder, why so many foreign autos are sold with the seven year warranty if their product is so rock solid.

It's because something major could go wrong, and go wrong, and go wrong. It's just insurance on that haloed Japanese auto.

Your should have put the red tag on the 2005 only and put
a longer warrenty the the 2006 to back up your claims of better quality and improve
resale

The Red Tag event is short term medicine for what is a chronic condition. The waiting list for corrective surgery is at least two years long, the length of time it takes, at a minimum, to develop and launch a new platform.

If we look at the current lineup, the plans for future platforms, the cure may really be three to four years away.

In the more near term, the Solstice has the auspicious chance of being one of the few new breeds from GM that could actually bring people into the showroom. I don't think that there is all that much wrong with the basic GM vehicle, but there is a perception in the public that there is. The perception is the problem, which most car sales folks will agree with. With the Solstice launch, there is a window of opportunity to help change that perception.

The score of new SUV's probably won't do anything to change perception, since the old SUV's sold well and most folks know to consider GM if you're looking for a mid/large SUV anyway. There's no perception problem with SUV's (ok, ignoring fuel consumption, controversial safety, etc, but that's a common concern).

The problem is with the car buying public. The new Cavalier...errr....sorry, the Cobalt, doesn't depart far enough to get the juices going. The SS version should have come out first so it didn't get relegated as the souped up version of GM's cheap car. The standard Cobalt should have been the affordable version of the cool new muscle car.

So, when you bring out the Solstice, make sure the highest performance version is available at the start. Ok? It'll help bunches.

IMHO

GM needs look no further than Cadillac and Opel for inspiration.
Those brands were dead and now are talk of industry. Why?
Product, product products.

Not fire sales

[Paraphrased]
"What's good for America is good for General Motors and what's good for General Motors is good for America."

Hello Mark,
You have a tough job. Your job is to sell what is presented to you and I am sure they tell you the price point.
However, I think you need to work with Bob on future sales strategies regarding product.
Examples:
1) If you had some yearly grille. lights, & sheet metal changes it would add excitement. We need to get away from the thinking "that will effect the resale value of last years model" and "excess part stocking packages". It can be done "on the cheap" with proper planning.
2) The gentleman above mentioned that if the Colorado had a 6 cylinder it would sell better. Naw...it won't sell better because it's ugly for it's price point. Beauty is skin deep on a vehicle. Be shallow!
3) Tell Bob, only us bloggers and car guys dig into details of the platform, drive-train etc. So, make sure the sports segment is done right. But for the rest of the product line, give you good looking sheet metal & interiors. Joe public doesn't understand an OHC from a pushrod. A CVT transmission from a conventional automatic.
4) Figure out a way to dress up each model to get various price points. Need a super low base price for advertising and for the wannabe crowd. Then dramatically dress it up for higher price points. I am talking cosmetics, not just the bells & whistles.

I see I am not alone in my concerns for GM. I like many others want V-8, rear-wheel drive vehicles that are made in America. I also want a more dependable, reliable vehicle that holds its value like the imports (Honda & Toyota).

Given the claims by GM to be building better vehicles, why not lengthen your warranties to support that concept. If you are building them better, then your cost to cover the lengthening of time & mileage would not have any significant cost.

These Red Tag events are a bit of an insult. Any good shopper could negotiate these prices on their own. I concur with a previous post that I would rather have the rebates and extra incentives on my GM card than the current Red tag offer. With GM closing so many AMERICAN plants, PRICE will have to determine from which auto manufacturer I will buy. If you are not going to be loyal to American workers, then why should I be loyal to you.

Incentives alone are not going to rescue your market share drop. More attractive and reliable vehicles are needed to improve your line-ups. RETRO styling is making Ford and Dodge sales improve, yet GM has not followed suit efficiently. The HHR is just a PT Cruiser and the SSR is way overpriced for the lackluster performance it offers. The SSR and GTO should have a price tag around the same as a Mustang GT, not $20K and $5k more respectively. If Ford can do it and make money, so can GM. Bring the Camaro and Trans Am back at about the same price as the Mustang and you will like your sales in that genre.

The loss of the Caprice Classic and the Full Size Impala SS has not gone unmourned either. Dodge now has set themselves on the right path with the Charger. Why not bring back a slightly smaller Full Size Caprice & Impala. With the 6.0 and DOD it would make a formidable competitor, provided you design it with excitement and creativity. I would personally recommend having Chip Foose design it and your retro vehicles. Especially since he is doing a RETRO run of five hundred 1969 Camaros that have almost completely sold out before he even begins production.

I will say this in closing. If you can't design your vehicles with more flash and flare, then get a whole new design team. If you can't build them with more reliability and durability, then hire the designers & engineers for Toyota and Honda. It's not that hard to go get a Honda Accord, take it apart, and figure out how they did a better job than can on your own vehicles.

PS: If GM continues to offer such horrible residual values on its own vehicles when leasing or doing a smartbuy, how can they expect customers to have faith in GM vehicles at all?

Red Tag is a regular yearly idea but , how do you plan to make enough money from that and with 30,000 less employee's to fund the required retirement resposibilty ????? you cant ....

so i know about 60,000 Delphi and G.M. employee's that arnt going to buy plus or minus another hmmm..
60,000 x 7(spin off jobs)employees you lost

GOOD JOB !

When on Edmunds Car Site, the "Editor's Ratings" of Japanese cars is not much higher (maybe even lower) than the American (GM) counterpart. And both Japanese and American are rated much higher by the consumer. Edmunds is considered premiere when comparing automobiles.

I thought this was of worth taking note.

Mr. LaNeve, I appreciate the Red Tag Sale. I'm considering purchasing a new 06 Avalanche because of it. However, because of the large discount in the sale, I have to wonder why the cost of the 06 Avalanche is so high to begin with? And what will it's value be when it comes time to trade it in due to this seemingly artificially high MSRP?

As far as "Total Value Promise", the solution is contained in these 3 simple words:

1. - "Warranty"
2. - "Warranty"
3. - "Warranty"

GM used to offer longer 5x60 warranties years back. And this was on vehicles with less quality than today's GM vehicles. Right? So what happened?

I'm a loyal Chevy owner over the years, but your 3x36 warranties on $40K+ vehicles is frustrating as hell. GM needs to understand this is as big of a concern to it's customers as the "throw a dart at the dartboard" pricing schemes.

I'm becoming more and more disappointed with GM that the warranties just plain suck and the prices seem to be overly inflated and the dealerships take that attitude to the extreme. It's almost like the dealers think they are doing me a favor by selling me a new vehicle. Why is it so hard for GM to understand where the problems lie and what they can do to change their image and bring in (and keep) customers?

Quite simply, lower your prices to the level they obviously should be and offer a warranty that at least attempts to convince me that GM believes it is making a quality vehicle.

Just for the record, I differ with Greg on some points. It seems like some people just accept the illusion propagated by a well funded entrenched narrow band of loud media bias. So how does the sales pitch of a foreign company become the editorial bias for what is news?

First, GM already builds better cars than the foreign competition, any foreign competition. Tell that to your Senators and the other talking heads.

Second, GM offers a better warranty than Toyota, Honda, Nissan, or any other foreign competition. GM actually honors its warranty. Furthermore, 100K warranties are available on any car. Many GM customers would rather have great GM features and SUPERIOR products instead of giving the money to some warranty fund. Whether a single brand markets throw away cars with 100K warranties that don't transfer means little to those who are informed. The proof to the public is that GM certified used cars outsell all other brands and the people trust GM certified used cars with only the remainder of the warranty. Why? GM owners know that GM makes the best car in the world. After returning from the Auto Show, the headlines should be saying that Buick tops Lexus.

Third, GM already sells the best rear wheel drive sedans and sports cars the world has to offer. Lets hope for even more. GM also sells the best front drive sedans and many people like them especially in winter climates. GM's car sales have gone up this past year. That bothers some people.

Residual value is another illusion propagated by the narrow band of loud biased media and their foreign lobby everytime GM has a big succesful sales event. They just nash their teeth because GM saved economy with leadership from the keep Keep America Rolling campaign. The whiners don't like zero percent, but the middle class does. Try the math again, residual value calculated from actual purchase price rather than MSRP for GM is far better than any foreign competitor. The disingenous critics know this. The critics also leave out of their math an extra savings GM customers get when they have a GM card.

So as the foreign competition price gouges and takes the profit out of America where is the same narrow loud chorus of biased media? What about the residual ripoff from the foreign corporation that doesn't pay for the health care of its workers in Japan?

America's corporate equities are vastly undervalued because they are carrying Uncle Sam's social responsibility on their backs. GM outcompetes foreign corporations and their governemnts on three continents. That bothers the critics and the foreign competition. That deserves some recognition by the loud narrow biased media, the Senators, and the talking heads.

The top brass at GM needs to spend some time in the showrooms. Not anounced, not staged, but go and see the reality of what people are thinking. Ask the management at the dealerships what customers are looking for and what they as dealers expect. In addition to GM abandoning customer's desires and wants for a long time, GM has walked all over dealers for a long time. It's time to get back to the basics and sell some cars (that people want to buy).

Just seeing the commercial the other day, I thought to myself, "these GM execs must have had too much to drink!". GM has to truly get away from the pricing strategy/branding. To me, it feels like I'm watching a 2nd rate company's commerical about a end of year furniture sale where you just go because of the discounts: "Dining sets for $200... Tables from $100... Come now, and get $200 off!... Get em before they're gone, located on Main St!". Its not even about cars and quality, just a dollar figure. Plus, I thought I was watching a Toyota commercial. When finding out it was GM, I'm thinking "They can't even get that right having to copy what's soon to be the #1 Automaker!!

Watching the foreign automaker's stragey/commercials, to me, its all about innovation, advancement and improvement. Interestingly, what has been overlooked is that its the same models from the past that they're building and improving on (ie Corollas, Altimas, Accords. Whereas GM just thought introducing many new models all at once will instantly produce excitement, recognition and loyalty. To me, it just confused the consumer as to what GM and the many different models really stands for. Instead of taking the names that people recognized before and significantly improving on it (which I think would have caused excitement),
they just dropped the success and progress achieved from its prior models which they could have truly taken it to the next level. Mix that in with some new models, that would have caused excitement.

Another example of trying to take the short cut. It sure worked... a shortcut to the ground.

Mr. LaNeve: There have been numerous “Automotive Experts” that continually bash GM about their pushrod engines I would like to point out that the GM 3.1, 3.3, 3.4, 3.5, 3.8 and 4.3L V-6 engines provide very good throttle response and deliver excellent gas mileage in normal driving. I have driven vehicles with these engines and found more than adequate power to accelerate and the ability to cruise with highway traffic with plenty of power to climb hills. Maybe the “Experts” should spend some time in these vehicles and drive them on public roads in normal driving situations. I have driven overhead cam V-6’s and unless you push them a little they don’t perform that well – they have to overcome more rotating mass and friction and since most cars cruise the highway at less than 2500 RPM where is the need for high RPM power?

Horsepower is a function of torque multiplied by RPM. When an engine develops maximum torque and for how long it holds peak is the true measure of engine power – OHV or OHC. Most OHV (pushrod) engines develop maximum torque and peak horsepower at lower RPM with the most overlap in the under 3000 RPM range which gives them good part throttle power at lower RPM. OHC engines rely upon variable valve timing and/or variable intake flow to boost low end response this adds weight, friction, complexity and cost. While it is true the new GM 3.5 and 3.9L V-6 use variable valve timing it is done with very few parts with little added weight, friction or cost. OHV engines are also easier to modify for Displacement on Demand.

The real measure engine power is in the torque curve and the area under it, an engine with a steep rising curve that has a long flat top to it will be an engine with great flexibility and provide strong power in a variety of driving conditions including; hauling loads, climbing hills, 0-60 acceleration, part throttle acceleration and highway passing in overdrive. These are all traits of the 3800 cast iron, 2 valve, pushrod V6 from GM. While rated at 200 HP with 240 Ft/Lbs. of torque it provides (or has provided) ample power for 5 and 6 passenger Gran Prix, LaCrosse, Impala, Regal, Monte Carlo, LeSabre, and Lucerne models all while delivering 30-33 MPG at highway speeds that are with traffic flow. It has also provided power for the Camaro (0-60 in 7 sec.) and in super-charged and tur