Informal Survey Time
Saab 9-3 Sport Combi
By Jack Keebler
GM Director–Advanced Concepts Group
One of the things that GM would like to better understand is the level of enthusiasm for rear-wheel drive versus front-wheel drive, particularly for young buyers of compact and sub-compact cars. Our belief is that front-wheel drive cars can be very rewarding to drive if properly set up. We also like the interior packaging space advantages, low mass and poor-weather traction of front-drive vehicles.
At Saab, there is a long and storied tradition of fast, reliable rally cars. These cars fed significant power through the front wheels and yet remained stable and entertaining to drive, which proved particularly important in long-distance races.
At auto shows we’re starting to see many small rear-drive concepts.
What do you think, should we work toward fun-to-drive front-drive or is rear-drive with all-wheel drive a better solution?
Nothing sells American cars better than RWD and/or a V8. It helps set them apart from a large market of Asian cars, it’s what gives them character and you have to play to your strengths. I still think that some FWD vehicles are necessary for small cars and certain non-enthusiast models like some Buicks, but there ought to be a lot more RWD to go around.
As far as Saab is concerned, they should never produce a RWD only vehicle, it’s just sacrilege. AWD would be the way to go in my book (FWD-based AWD is fine for smaller vehicles, RWD-based AWD would be great for the 9-5, crossovers, and SUVs).
A hot little Kappa-based RWD coupe or sedan with seating for four would be a great addition to the Chevy and Pontiac line ups. A modern ‘57 Chevy maybe? Cars like that get serious street cred, and GM needs all it can get these days. Build ‘em light enough and the turbo Ecotec will be all the engine you’ll ever need. The aftermarked support base for that motor would just about double overnight with this kind of a vehicle.
You are correct that GM has built some of the best sorted out FWD vehicles, especially when it comes to high levels of power output (well controlled torque steer). It should be clear after years of success in this field, that the public simply won’t be converted on this issue, and the consensus is pretty clear on what they feel a true American vehicle should be. I just don’t see the value in fighting that perception.
Long-story-short, RWD for everything except the following:
-GMDAT small cars from Korea. At that price point, RWD adds too much cost and is less of a priority over the added interior space of FWD.
-Saabs should be AWD.
-Saturns. Gotta leave some cars to battle the imports! Focus your FWD expertise here.
-Some Chevys. It’s hard for me to think of Chevy without a FWD compact like the Cobalt, but if you can leave that to Saturn, that would work. FWD crossovers and minivans are okay too, as long as AWD is an option.
-Some Buicks. RWD performance isn’t a priority for this market. The lower range Buicks can shave some off the bottom line with FWD (probably shared with several crossovers to keep costs down). But make no mistake, Buick *NEEDS* RWD on at least the top half of their cars, otherwise no one will respect them and they’ll go the way of Oldsmobile.
-AWD options on many RWD Cadillacs, Pontiacs, Buicks, and even some Chevys. Of course, SUVs and trucks should have the normal RWD with 4WD or AWD option.
BTW, I’m 26 if you want to know exactly what age group to file this under. Thanks for listening.
Your likely to get some very skewed answers on this blog, as it is mostly automotive enthusiasts. Some with more taste than others.
FWD will and should always remain at the forefront of most passenger cars. It works beautifully for family cars, and people haulers. However, as soon as a car is intended to be the slightest bit exciting, a RWD with AWD mode should be availabe. The passionate cars need the RWD to satisfy the enthusiasts, while integrating AWD will ensure the vehicle is operable by all. I want nothing more than a G6 Coupe with 250+ horsepower and AWD. I think with RWD alone you alienate those comfortable with FWD, and with FWD alone you leave the sporting type at the side of the road. I love a good “sporty” car, but the thought of driving RWD on glare ice or in heavy snow conditions does not appeal to me.
A RWD with AWD option is definately the way to go.
RWD NOOOOOO!!
FWD and AWD/4WD yes!
if youre conscidering RWD you are killing SAAB!!
what SAAB needs is Fwd and 4wd with turbocharged v6 Biopower, output 380bhp!!
I currently drive a 2005 SAAB 9-3 linear. The packaging is very good, although the suspension is a little soft for my tastes. However, I much prefer the driving and handling dynamics of a rear wheel drive car. I am willing to sacrifice some interior packaging for better driving dynamics. What can I say I’m an enthusiast, and proud of it.
I vote FWD with AWD as an option. Course, I’m a Saab nut from way back in the 60’s. But Saab won some Showroom Stock A and B national championships with FWD in the 70’s, beating some Porsches and Datsun 280ZX’s in the process. So, yes, a properly setup FWD car can be a blast to drive–especially when travelling on unknown backroads.
I’d say go for the RWD. I personally prefer rear wheel drive. And at the moment, there are next to no small, sporty entry level, RWD cars. Offering such a product would definately peek my interest.
However, the bigger reason to go RWD, IMHO, is because a small, high performance FWD car is almost like the calling card of a Japanese company. If GM is to compete against the Japanese, they can either offer a similar product and make it better, or offer something they don’t. At the moment, there are no small, sporty Japanese RWD compact. Many Americans love drag racing as well and RWD offers advantage there too. I think it makes sense to go RWD.
J
Rear wheel drive, please!
Personally I have never been a big fan of front drive. The greater feeling of control I have in rear or AWD vehicles is one of the reasons look for these vehicles when I car shop.
Now, for the compact sub-compact market..hmmm.. if you can keep the price down shoot for the rear/AWD vehicles. But if it is going to significantly impact price then shoot for the front drive, that is after all the market.
DKK
I think Rear Wheel Drive with an AWD option makes more sense, especially for selling cars in warm weather climes.
GM does worst in California for instance. You could reverse that with an affordable RWD sedan, personally I would call it the Chevelle, with an AWD option which would be popular in the East.
Not every car needs to be RWD. For instance the Malibu could be FWD while the Impala should definitely be RWD with a AWD option. I am still shocked that you put out a Impala SS with FWD. It should have at least been AWD. Not having a AWD option on the Impala is just stupid.
If its a choice between FWD with AWD as an option, or RWD with AWD as an option then most defintely move to RWD.
I hate FWD cars, but on the East Coast an affordable AWD option on a RWD platform would negate any negatives.
Look at it this way-GM’s greatest success came when your cars were RWD. As soon as they switches to FWD sales tanked. Not your father’s Oldsmobile-remember that one?
OH…………and increase your warranties.
Front-drive is only fun to drive if you’ve got a little econobox that weighs so little it’s still fun to fling around, and even then, it would still be more fun with rear or all wheel drive.
If you’re going to spend more than $20k on a car you’re intending to have fun with, that car had better be RWD.
Why? RWD cars don’t have torque steer, and you can’t do donuts in a FWD car. (Not, obviously, that your average Saab owner is going to spend a lot of time doing donuts, but throttle steering is an important part of the performance car experience.)
Saab does indeed have a tradition of making spirited vehicles, but it’s not the front-drive aspect of the car that excites the average Saab owner, but rather the aircraft inspired designs, the quirky features, the high horsepower small displacement turbocharged engines, and the fact that the cool designs and turbocharged engines also come with a lot of safety features.
If Saab is going to compete with the rest of the import market, some compct/sub-compact RWD vehicles would be a great way to go.
A highly turboed Saab sub-compact competition drift car would be pretty sweet, especially if you made it available to the public.
(Speaking of which, any plans to sell a retail version of the GTO drift car?)
we need to convince people to buy american and save there jobs or everything will be imported
I appreciate the opportunity to share my thoughts.
If HP is > 500, then RWD.
If HP
Rear wheel drive. But then again, I’m more of a muscle car guy, not a compact car driver.
Get that Camaro out already!
i beleave that rear-wheel drive vehicles are better. I personally enjoy the way they handle over front-wheel drives and AWDs.
RWD all the way. design a light AWD for the FWD people!
If its back seats are meant to be used, and it’s not a large car, keep it FWD.
Part of the reason so many people like Acuras is that they have a lot more space than equivalent BMWs. Perfect for anyone who doesn’t flog their car.
Just work on steering feel, please. It’s been GM’s weak point in both FWD and RWD models, and don’t think that feel should be limited to cars like the Solstice.
RWD cars seem to track better on the freeway and the lack of torque steer and increased traction are additional benefits that can be felt during normal driving.
I would prefer to see front wheel drive in compact and sub-compact cars.
I think there’s a market for both. Economy cars such as the Cobalt should remain front-drive mainly for the reasons you mentioned above and because the typical buyer of such a car probably doesn’t care about the potential performance benefits.
Small cars with rear-wheel-drive can be enormously fun. BMWs have always had rear- (and recently all-wheel-drive). And look at the success of the Miata with car enthusiasts and weekend racers.
Many car companies have a variety of models to suit various needs. Lexus, for example, has the rear-wheel-drive IS-series for the performance-oriented driver and the front-wheel-drive ES-series for the more luxury-oriented driver.
GM has even embraced these ideals to some degree. Look at the Solstice and new Cadillac models. High-performance front-wheel-drive models can be entertaining, but they are all plagued by understeer at the limit and many have excessive torque steer.
Also, it’s nice not to have to replace CV axles every 150k miles.
You pose a good point about front-drivers. My family has two front-drive GM sedans and a 4WD Explorer. For our snow-belt Michigan roads, the FWD cars are as good as the 4×4 SUV 99.99% of the time. Rear-drive with traction control is nearly as good.
We would readily replace one FWD car with a rear-drive sedan or coupe, given it had a reasonable price tag (about half that of a Cadillac STS). Additionally, RWD-based AWD like BMW’s xDrive would offer an irresistable opportunity for people in northern states.
A company as big as GM must have rear-drive sedans/sports coupes priced for the masses. The Chevy Camaro Concept has awesome looks and the requisite RWD, now it needs to walk the walk with a fun-to-drive powertrain/suspension setup. Accomplish this, and you’re looking at a hit that’ll sell far more than the 150,000 units the business case requires to build it. Other rear-drive cars can help amortize the cost.
Most younger buyers don’t take FWD vehicles seriously as performance cars. BMW has had it right all along, Lexus got it with the IS. Audi, Saab, Volvo are still trying to catch up. AWD does not equal RWD.
Back before front-wheel drive became popular, Saabs were known as cars that got around good in the snow, and were seen a lot in snow country, ski areas, etc. Nowadays, pretty much everyone has front-wheel drive cars, so Saabs aren’t special that way any more. You see a lot more SUVs or Subaru 4wd autos at ski areas today. I think Saab should be looking seriously at 4wd, at least as an option, for its models.
Use fun-to-drive FWD for Saab and Saturn, with an AWD option for high performance models. Use RWD (AWD unnecessary) for all Chevrolets, Pontiacs, and Buicks over 16 feet long.
The best platform developement would be Front wheel drive. With a Rear Biased All wheel drive option. That platform would offer much higher volume potential.
Rear wheel drive platforms have lower appeal in volume segments.
FWD or AWD, never RWD.
I think that there are certain advantages to using both front-drive and rear-drive. There should be a good mix of products from GM that satisfy both. Front-drive is great for family sedans, rear-drive for performance-oriented cars. I think GM should definitely go for Zeta Lite, and it WILL sell.
IMO rear wheel drive is going to be a big selling point for newer small cars that are going to be sold towards the younger crowd who like to “tune” their cars. I myself am part of that crowd and can honestly say that a nice stripped lightweight rear wheel drive platform with lots of room for improvement from the aftermarket would sell like hotcakes.
Hi, I still consider myself as a young buyer at 29 but I’m not considering buying a small or midsize car. I only like large cars. FWD is a good thing mainly for smaller cars as it leaves more interior space and it gives lighter cars better traction.
Bigger ones should always be rear wheel drive. I’m still waiting for GM to make a rear wheel full size Buick that will replace my old ones.
I currently have 4 Buicks and the “newest” is a FWD 1991 Park Avenue Ultra. It’s still in good shape but I don’t like how it feels on the road. I never liked any FWD car anyway. I never liked 1977 and newer GM cars as they lack the hardtop roofs of the 1976 and older designs and they often have engines from other divisions.
4 door hardtop is my favourite body style and GM has not made one since 1976…
Please, make RWD full size Buicks with real frames, towing capacity, outstanding performance, great handling (fun to drive at any speed, in any conditions) and better style than the ugly 1977-1996 models…
I’d care more about that than “Quiet Tuning!”
See my 3 older Buicks on my CarDomain page to see the kind of cars that I like. I don’t like them because they are old but because that’s how modern cars should be made!
Regards
Phil Racicot
I see front wheel drive like a small, fun,4cyl 200hp car like a RSX. It’s fast but not that fast. Rear wheel drive drive is more like a muscular car with either a big 6 or a 8cyl dev. 250 or more.RWD looks and feel really fast. AWD is more a rally car look just like a Subaru STI. The best car for me would be a 4 cyl, AWD,coupe with 225hp atmospheric with a nice driving experience.I think people dont mind the cost if the car has what it needs.
Economy cars should be FWD
Performance cars should be RWD
For RWD cars that are not as pure performance and are intended to offer more utility, or for FWD that edge into that rally realm, offer AWD as an option.
Examples:
Camaro – RWD
Solstice – RWD
GTO – RWD
GP – RWD/AWD
G6 – FWD/AWD
Cobalt – FWD
Impala – FWD/AWD
Monte Carlo – RWD
…or something like that.
Odd you would ask, I was talking cars with the buds last week and I’m the one in the group that feels the next Camaro needs an all wheel drive option with the high feature V6. Of course the number one consideration is that the Camaro is built. And with no “b” pillar. And with V8 options (note the plural)
Most of all the engineers at GM need to recognize the teachings of Colin Champan rather than the arguement of drive wheels. Get the fricking wasted weight out of the product. No matter what anybody says the term “road hugging weight” is a load of baloney for saying the guys desgning the product were lazy or cheap. (lazy 9 out 0f 10) You can’t turn or launch weight but you can go faster without it.
I have driven a good number of front and rear wheel drive cars and I can comfortably say that I will never buy a front wheel drive car as long as I live. It does not matter how “rewarding” a front wheel drive car is to drive sedately, when pushed to its limits they just dont perform the same as a car with a proper, rear drive, setup. The new Camaro concept is a step in the right direction.
Rear wheel.. the only way to go. I drive an e36 BMW M3 (from a Pontiac Sunfire), and let me tell you *nothing* can beat 50/50 weight balance, lack of understeer, and the feedback/control you get from RWD. I’ll stay exclusively with RWD (or AWD) from now on.
Just look at the perennial winner for best car in class – BMW 3 series has been there since pretty much its inception. Balance is key – what good is horsepower if you have torque steer to contend with?
Surely future pedestrian safety requirements will eliminate many of the packaging advantages seen with, particular smaller, fwd vehicles. In contrast a large core of buyers are well aware of the performance advantages of rwd in terms of balance and power delivery, even in smaller vehicles with relatively modest power. Stability control and optional awd can easily overcome traction problems on most surfaces. In polls on broad GM enthusiast sites (chearsandgears.com and gminsidenews.com), there has been strong support for a compact rwd Pontiac to replace the Sunfire, while a rwd G6 replacement is favored over a fwd model by as more than 2:1. Witness the continued support for the last rwd compacts, especially the E80 series Sprinter/Corolla coupes and Nissan Silvia, the more recent accolades and cult following generated by the Subaru Impreza, Mazda RX-8 and BMW 1-Series (despite their packaging disadvantages). BMW’s reputation n the US was founded upon such a small compact. For GM, the Solstice concept generated a tidal-wave of requests for a small 4/5-seat Pontiac sedan/coupe, purely because it was rwd, and it is an idea which has just not gone away. Many people still call for a rwd Pontiac compact and lament the G4/Pursuit offered in Mexico and Canada. However well it sells it does nothing to support the brand’s continued existence. Here is a chance for GM to give Pontiac a unique niche in the market.
On the other hand the transverse engine fwd/awd format will continue to be the mainstream choice, and for Saab is so deeply ingrained in the brand character that rwd models are anethema to the purists.
Rear drive is great for the performance cars such as the Corvette and Camaro. I believe the Monte Carlo and Impala could benefit from a rear drive platform as well. Large cars have the room to benefit from the better balance and handling a well engineered rear drive platform can provide. Small cars, however, would be better off with front wheel drive, which allows a more passenger room on a small platform, and better bad weather traction in a light car. We all want to see the Camaro return, but definitely not the Chevette !
Slightly off topic, I want to tell you how much I enjoy my new G6 GTP Coupe! This car rocks! The quality is excellent, and I find I take the long way home to drive it more. One of the guys I work with has a Solara, and is the typical ToyoSnob, “better quality, OHC better, blah, blah”. I let him drive my GTP Coupe, and he was in shock. I told him to floor it up a steep hill, and his response was “Holy Crap this thing has guts!” Everyone who’s been in my car loves it. If you can just get the import buyers to take a test drive, things would turn around for GM. Keep up the good work !
Rear Wheel Drive! I think Chryslers success speaks volumes not only that but if chevy is going to build cars and then slap an SS badge on them espeacially when you guys are using nameplates that have a real and visceral fan base (ie the imapala the malibu and the up and coming camero ) these nameplates shouldnt be used lightly the Impala hasnt been cool since 96 front drive v6 and it looks like a rental well at least you brought back the malibu oh wait thats a rental to.
FWD with occasional AWD models. See Ford 500.
Critical here in Minnesota!
FWD, RWD, or AWD can be designed and tuned for maximum performance. FWD benefits from packaging efficiency. RWD gives great performance, but you gotta know that if you try to sell cars that are only available with RWD, then understand that they will be rotting on your dealer lots from November through March at dealers in cold weather states. Any car you plan to offer with RWD, you had better offer AWD as an option, because it would be idiotic and foolish to shut out half your markets.
Simply put–front wheel drive still has its purpose on lower end cars like, for instance, Cobalts and Malibus, but when you build a relatively large luxury sedan, or a car like the new Camaro, it HAS to be rear wheel drive to even be considered legitimate.
You can put all the latest electro gizmos on the dash, the most beautiful materials, etc., but if I’m buying something the size and price of a Lucerne/DTS, it either has to be rear drive or it’s not even a consideration. Case in point, had Chrysler brought out the LX cars with the same look and price, but in front drive form, they wouldn’t have been nearly the success they are today. Well, that, and do you EVER see a front drive Mercedes or BMW? Didn’t think so…
To bring up another mentioned brand, Saab doesn’t exactly fit the rear drive image, but a new fwd platform with AWD capabilities certainly would.
I have mixed feelings about RWD. My first car in 1989 was a RWD ‘79 Olds Cutlass, and I loved driving it. After sending it to the junkyard with a slipping transmission in late 1994, I bought a FWD ‘89 Buick Regal. It was nice to drive for a few weeks since it was much nicer than the Cutlass, but it quickly became just boring transportation. After lots of little things started to go wrong with it, I traded it in for a new 2001 Buick Regal. This was about the same as the ‘89, nice upgrade for a while, then dull.
In late 2004, I traded the Regal in for a new RWD 2005 Cadillac CTS with the sport suspension package. It was wonderful to return to a RWD car, and I still enjoy and look forward to driving it every day, even after owning it for more than a year. I’m not sure I could go back to FWD and torque steer again. Fish-tailing a RWD car is almost like having your own personal amusement park ride.
But RWD is not perfect. The car spins a lot more on snow and ice than the FWD cars did. There are lots of things that help like traction control, stability control, the snow mode on the transmission and near 50-50 weight distribution, but I wouldn’t try driving it in deep snow or after an ice storm with the stock tires.
RWD cars also tend to be more expensive because of the increased engineering complexity of the drive shaft and differential when FWD cars only have C-V joints. And AWD is even more complex and expensive, and has more problems like lower gas mileage, reduced performance and likely higher maintenance and lower long-term durability and reliability.
I would love to have more RWD choices from GM, but I imagine I am not in the majority of typical car owners in the US. Particularly in northern states where there is more snowfall, and older people who remember the days before FWD, I think lots of people would remember the nightmare of putting snow tires on their car, and still spinning and getting stuck, and they would stay away from RWD. The almost mandatory increase in the price of a RWD car compared to the FWD competition might also keep people away. I think there would be a huge marketing hurdle to overcome before RWD becomes mainstream.
We should also discuss the ethics of car sales here. How many people who have bought a RWD car like a Cadillac or the new Chrysler cars weren’t aware and weren’t informed by the sales person that the car was RWD, and didn’t discover this until they tried to drive it in the snow and ice? I would bet a fairly significant number.
So, should GM make more RWD or AWD cars? I would say yes, but only on select models. Pontiac should be mostly RWD, except for entry-level models like the G6 or a G4. Buick should have a RWD/AWD flagship sedan to replace the Park Avenue. Cadillac should be entirely RWD with AWD available on some models. Chevy should only have a few RWD cars like Corvette, Camaro, and maybe Impala with AWD available. Saturn should have the Sky roadster and maybe a flagship with RWD/AWD.
Many car companies have stayed mostly or entirely FWD for so many years now that bringing back RWD to the masses isn’t a decision to be made quickly or lightly. The people in control of financing new car designs at GM have to be convinced of the need for the added price and complexity and the drawbacks of RWD and AWD. You have to make sure not to listen too much to the small but vocal minority (you know who you are) who are constantly demanding a V-8 powered coupe with 400-500+ horsepower that costs under $25,000. That price is not attainable, only a tiny number of buyers who are auto enthusiasts desire that much power, insurance costs will be enormous, and there is such a small demand for coupes anymore, I don’t know how any car company can justify or make any money on such a vehicle. But GM can make money on RWD/AWD cars if the models are carefully chosen and properly marketed to the people who have never owned one.
I am about to lease my fourth Saab (900 SE Turbo, 9-5 Aero, 9-5 Aero, 9-3 SC Aero). I live outside of Philadelphia. There are enough hills and enough snow here to make rear-wheel drive a bad idea. (I’ve watched too many people slide around and into one another.)
I would not purchase a rear-wheel drive car (even from Saab) even though I expect that good-wether driving would be more fun w/RWD. All wheel drive is fine, but adds weight (which can hurt performance and mileage) and expense.
You need front-wheel and all-wheel drive products. Maybe a hybrid with the gas engine driving the front wheels and electric motors driving the rear would get you more of the off-the-line acceleration that folks want without inducing too much torque steer.
Personal I like either front-wheel drive or all-wheel drive vehicles, living in Massachusetts, thats whats needed in 5-6 months of winter driving.
I’m about to turn 30 and I personally prefer RWD. That said, I live in Toronto and my last car (Saab 9-3) beat out the Cadillac CTS for two reasons: first, it was smaller and I like smaller cars; second, it was FWD and my wife hates RWD in the winter (we are a one car family).
So, I guess that wasn’t the answer you were looking for. I would like to see the FWD cars (some of which are inevitable) to be as fun as possible, so those of us who are stuck with them can enjoy them. At the same time, if the decision were mine alone I would take a RWD car over a FWD car everytime (and, to be honest, I probably would have got the CTS if it had only 1 of the two problems mentioned above).
>Our belief is that front-
>wheel drive cars can be
>very rewarding to drive if
>properly set up.
The key terminology being “if properly set up.” Which rarely happens, especially in a high-volume car by a mainstream manufacturer. Such a set up is reserved for high dollar cars.
And even so, I’ve still not seen a properly set-up FWD car that was more enjoyable to drive than a comparable RWD or AWD counterpart.
So I vote RWD or AWD.
I like FWD like most Saab
enthusiasts . However Saab
should start to entertain
AWD especially when you are approaching 250hp -300hp
The Saab will work so much
better through an AWD system.
anyway that is what I think
Saab -GM should go to from 2008 on. epsilon 2 Platform ?
It’s painfully obvious from the wording of your question that GM prefers the status quo, and doesn’t want to invest in the Kappa platform.
Rearwheel drive is better for the sole reason that the front tires don’t have to divide their grip between acceleration and turning. Rear wheel drive is waht real drivers want, and as Chrysler has shown the American manufactures, is the way to go.
Its vary simple, if a car is front wheel drive I will never buy it. My moms mini van and my grandmothers car are front wheel drive. I drive rear wheel drive cars with standard transmissions and thats it.
Of all my friends, I don’t know a single person who would prefer front-wheel drive. We are all enthusiasts and here is the general consensus about fast cheep cars. We all like the WRX and Evo (not really cheep), the Mazda 3 and 6 are cool, civic is cool, srt-4 is fast but has zero style, etc. But what we all really want, but won’t talk about ’cause we can’t afford it is a BMW 3 series. So, build a RWD G6 with 200 horses, and people will be lined up at the lots. The real coup-de-tat would be a G6 that comes in FWD, RWD, or AWD. Then you will rule the industry. Do it with the Cobalt too. Then build a RWD performance version of the G6 with some serious muscle that can beat an M3 on the track. I know you can do it, just look at the Corvette. I don’t expect to be able to afford it, but when someone buys a 325i they think of it as getting a tuned down M3, not 16 fewer horses than a GLI.
Jack,
My friends and I like the idea of rear wheel drive, but bad weather traction is still a concern. Never the less, I think it would be a good idea for GM to offer a rear drive vehicle as part of the Chevrolet or Pontiac line. However, this vehicle should have the option of an AWD system as well. That way buyers in the northern part of the country can choose AWD, while still providing buysers in the southern states the option of not incurring the additional costs and power loss associated with AWD. The main concern I have with front wheel drive vehicles is that some have so much power they can not turn effectively under hard acceleration (G6 GTP). If the G6 was AWD I would love it. The additional cost would not bother me. Good luck with your research. I hope this helps.
RWD
I guess I would be in the demographic GM is pointing to. And to put it bluntly, I don’t think I will ever buy another FWD car. If the car was compelling and had a good motor, I would prefer AWD. But the choices for AWD cars that are attractive from the design, power, and cost department are few and far between. That’s quite all right though, as RWD has worked for me in my past 5 cars and my next one, a Saturn Sky.
Conventional wisdom is that RWD should be reserved for large cars, since there is a big space efficiency penalty.
Putting it in small cars is brain-dead, despite the current “show car” fad. I gave that up with an ‘82 Corolla.
If GM makes FWD cars that handle like MINI’s, or Subaru style AWD cars that don’t swig gas (at least not brutally), customers will come…but I still like FWD for just the reasons you outline – space efficiency, intrinsically safer handling (had a BMW do a 360 on me, but never a FWD problem), MUCH GREATER fuel efficiency than AWD, better snow handling etc.
I wouldn’t chase the Chrysler 300/Magnum/Charger series, since DC could economically build on the Mercedes “old technology bits and pieces” instead of having to do the job from scratch. Besides, if RWD were intrinsically that popular, wouldn’t the Ford Crown Victoria be ultra-popular? Or the old RWD Impala?
Even the RWD Mustang was languishing until the recent restyle. (Come to think about it, maybe the Chrysler 300’s “style” has more to do with its success than the RWD/FWD issue.)
The SINGLE area where GM should have RWD is – well – the Camaro. Just so it matches the Mustang and provides an alternative to the DC RWD’ers. In that context, the “balanced handling” will appeal to “enthusiasts.” But be sure to include stability control, which Ford didn’t (hey, watch me slide into the snow bank!), and get the weight balance as close to 50-50 as possible (something Chrysler and Dodge was able to do) or all the real-world RWD negatives will be there in spades.
BTW, I drove a friend’s New Beatle with the latest anti-slip and stability control technology, and it did super in the snow. How ’bout more limited slip differentials in FWD cars, instead of AWD, which is massive overkill?
I refuse to buy FWD at this point, I only consider a model if it is RWD or AWD. I don’t like torque steer or wheel hop(as the tires wear) that FWD is prone to. Also you can make a much better steering system if you have RWD. Finally, weight distribution is helped by RWD as well. All these add up to a more engaging and fun to drive car, and that is what I like to buy.
RWD is more fun, no doubt. Does GM want a piece of the drifting culture?
You speak of “significant power” through the front wheels of the SAAB. 184kW is pedestrian.
Why aren’t you putting forward an example of your Australian arm who have their entry level family car with 175kW? Okay, it’s a little less than the Saab, but it handles it easily because it’s RWD. The platform is also sold with engines right up to 297kW.
Front wheel drive has its place – small to medium cars with sensible amounts of power which have to compete in a very competitive market segment.
That said, give me my V8 RWD anyday. (and AWD if you have to)
Although I almost never push my car to its limits, I would always choose rwd over fwd. The way a car “feels” while taking a turn is one of the main reasons why I like rwd better – in my experience, the difference can be felt even while driving in a mildly aggressive manner (in a way that won’t get you in trouble if seen by mr police officer). Also, I think the snow traction advantage of fwd is not as great as people think, especially if you get a second pair of tires dedicated for winter on your rwd car.
There is not even one ounce of doubt: Rear wheel drive cars are more rewarding to drive, more desirable to own, and – beacuse of the mechanical layout – RWD cars have a better stance on the road: Short front overhang, cab-rearward designs that communicate elegance and strength. There is no doubt at all.
I think there’s definitely a market for compact, rear wheel drive vehicles.
I do, however, think it’s a niche market, as RWD in a compact car will have a number of drawbacks. Longitudinal engine mounting means longer hoods which limits what can be achieved in truly compact dimensions. Transmission tunnels mean center rear seats are basically a waste (it’s debatable how useful they are anyway, but people like to have the option). Rear differentials can intrude upon rear cargo space. Modest decreases in fuel economy due to more spinning parts in the drive train. Today’s traction/stability control systems and good suspension and tires greatly help the grip and driving safety issues that used to be associated with rear wheel drive (though such things need to be easily disabled for enthusiast approval).
Realistically, I’d say that putting good, lively steering into a compact is more important, or perhaps just an easier way to gain more support from enthusiasts. Mazda3s, Mini Coopers, and older Honda Civics are an example of this.
But, if good steering could do everything enthusiasts wanted in small cars, we wouldn’t need the Pontiac Solstice and Mazda MX5. Those vehicles have the advantage of not worrying about practicality very much.
The fusion of the compact sports car and practical compact was fairly well illustrated in Mazda’s Kabura concept, though it was slightly lost in the noise of the muscle cars at the Detroit show. I could definitely see a vehicle of similar character being offered through Pontiac especially. The Kappa platform already used at Pontiac is obviously a great place to start with such a vehicle, since it’s the right size, it’s cost effective, and according to early media praise, quite rewarding to drive. A lengthened wheelbase to make more room for passengers, two doors, a legitimately useful 2+2 layout, flexible cargo area accessed from a hatch, combined with some of the styling and handling success of the solstice, I think would be quite desirable. I think interior space of a Scion TC is a good goal to shoot for in a vehicle like this.
Where a compact, RWD vehicle fits into the rest of the GM world, to me, is a little less clear. Chevy already has a range of quality cars in the compact segment. Adding all wheel drive to the Cobaly/HHR line seems more logical, though theoretically a transfer case like an AWD one could be simplified into a rear wheel drive transfer case for a transverse engine car, and that could avoid some of the packaging and engineering problems of adapting a mainstream vehicle line to RWD to gain more enthusiast approval.
The direction Saturn is going seems to be one that could accept rear or all wheel drive compacts too, since the Ion is expected to be replaced, and Saturn’s image reworked somewhat. Whether it would be better to start with Kappa platform (Sky) or Delta platform (Astra) is a larger question.
Either way, in many consumer’s eyes, GM isn’t a strong player in the compact segment, and I could easily envision some “sexier” vehicles drawing people into the showrooms, just as dodge/chrysler have used their LX platform vehicles as a catalyst for greater success. It’s a situation that shows the power that styling and rear wheel drive have to give a mainstream vehicle line tremendous momentum.
I can’t stand driving front drive cars. I don’t lke the torque steer issue and the “pulling” feeling you get. This greatly limits my choices for a car, and I am getting a little tired of driving trucks.
Rear wheel drive will always rule “fun-to-drive”. A setup with reasonable weight distribution and a limited slip negates much of the FWD advantage. AWD, adds weight, cost and complexity.
To begin, I’m a young male (21) just out of college and in the market for a new car. I live in the North East where weather conditions can be a serious consideration when choosing a vehicle.
I’m a domestic car enthusiast, and if I could design the ideal compact car configuration for my tastes it would be a full-time AWD hatch or quad-coupe with a turbo 4. Since I can’t afford more than one vehicle, this vehicle satisfies my needs for 1 performance 2 economy 3 utility 4 all season capability. This would be the ideal replacement for my 2 door jimmy 4×4, and a car many different people with varying needs could find enjoyable and useful. I would be willing to put snow tires on a RWD performance car to drive it year-round, but 90% of buyers aren’t devoted enough to go to the trouble of buying and storing an extra set of wheels and tires.
You can play in the enthusiast compact segment with FWD successfully, but you need an area of differentiation. THere is no shame in having the base car FWD, but a performance version should ideally be full-time AWD. Part-time AWD systems work fine for car-based utility vehicles, but no one considers it a performance credential, look how many Volvo S60R’s you see on the road…
The best way to sell cars to young enthusiasts is to offer the most high-tech/futuristic features at the lowest possible price. AWD and turbo-charging are considered by many to be advanced technology. That is why mitsubishi used to be revered by the youth with beauties like the 3000GT and Eclipse when they were turbo charged and AWD. The problem was that these cars were too expensive when new, but had absolute cult status on the used car market. Another new car I’d look at very carefully is the new Civic. While it seems that young people liking a civic is cliche, the newest generation offers two things that I really like. The high-winding racecar-like engine in the Si, and the LED speedo and the split instument panel. It looks futuristic and advanced to my young eye (the rest of the civic and civics past don’t appeal to me in the least). One thing to be careful of, don’t go over the top. The Nissan Urge is perhaps the least desirable concept I’ve ever seen RWD or not. It isn’t futuristic, but in the style of a bad japanese cartoon.
I wish I had the opportunity to better answer your questions if I haven’t completely. I am an avid domestic car enthusiast and would be proud to help GM’s market research if I would be of any use in a focus group or something of the like. ccortazzo@gmail.com
Interesting question… You could spit the difference with AWD like Audi and the A3 S-line. Wait, you had that with the 9-2. The tough part about small rwd is the balance with the car weighing very little and all the weight up front and the rears pushing. I live in Canada and this setup would not work well up here year round. California should be another story. I say make a Solstice Coupe or Hatch with AWD and I would be sold.
Im 16, have a passion for all things automotive and believe that rwd is the only way to go. you would have to pay me to buy a fwd car. end of story (ps my 3 friends sitting here reading this feel the same way).
You know it is obvious one of the reasons GM is doing a little poorly is because performance versions of economy cars like the GXP and SS lines are not either RWD or AWD. It’s a known fact RWD is just too fun. Being a 2004 GTO owner I can say that for sure. Les the smaller SS, GXP, and Red Line ranges be AWD. Like an AWD Cobalt SS, G6, and ION.
I believe RWD is far more appropriate for larger cars, were the packaging advantages of FWD are not so important… The BMW 1 series hatch shows how RWD greatly comprimises the space efficiency of the basic hatchback design. As for the Saab brand, I believe just as RWD is BMW’s thing, FWD seems a Saab thing. Why not make Saab the best handling FWD cars in the world? Remember, the very cool Sabb Sonett of thge ’70s was FWD…
huh… usually, id say rear drive all the way, but its winter so i can see how rear with AWD could really come in handy… i doubt a chevy cobalt ss or pontiac g6 gtp could compete with a mitsu lancer evo or a subie wrx sti, but itd still be cool and probably sell well here up north… although cars like the GTO and that camaro concept should stay pure RWD. but most of your sedans would prolly be more appealing with RWD… and maybe total redesigns (just messing with you!!! not ALL of them need ground-up redesigns :p)… yeah but if you look at how the chrysler LX cars are selling, you gotta start moving back to RWD… a lot of your FWD cars make no sense with V8s… the monte carlo especially needs RWD 1. because the nascar version has it and 2. because a v8 sport coupe should be.
i guess what im trying to say is…
MORE REAR-DRIVE/V8 CARS!!!
it works for chrysler, itll work for you. and you’ll catch ford off guard… theyre going all fwd and putting every new car on a mazda chassis…
The only thing making the Cobalt a good car is front wheel drive, if it had rear wheel drive it’d be a GREAT car.
Sports car enthusiasts don’t care about bad weather traction, interior design or anything else as long as the seat is comfortable enought to drive in for 8 hours.
Rear wheel drive inspires, front wheel drive leaves much to desire. (You can quote that, name’s Ryan).
Depends what you mean by handling. I like my 9-3 and my wife’s 9-2. The 9-2 handles very differently to the 9-3 due to its four wheel drive. A rear wheel drive car is more fun, but that’s because you can easily lose control with it more than a front wheel or 4WD car. The trick is to get people in to test drive the cars. What would really work with the Saab’s is a slightly better grade of materials for the dashboard (they are quite plasticky), and the option of 4WD for the 9-5.
Americans buy cars on looks, and we’re being served a whole plate of ugly. We have scads of FWD cars with cavernous interiors, but they are generally stubby, pug-faced things with tall slab sides and no overhangs. When you turn the engine sideways and go “cab forward” until it hurts, you lose the traditional RWD proportions that appear balanced and natural to the eye. Whether they know it or not, buyers have a sense of how a car should fill space.
Also, FWD is mechanically inferior. Poor balance, driveline lash, binding, and torque steer are all very real to anyone with the half-presence to know what is going on. FWD is one advertising campaign away from being established cheap and cut-rate in the eyes of the public. Pile on the technology buzzwords, and RWD is back. Fancy traction control defeats what everyone heard from their uncle’s friend about his 1978 BMW being bad in the snow. The anti-FWD counterrevolution is already underway, regardless.
From the enthusiast’s point of view, the RWD landscape is barren. Nothing along the lines of a classic BMW 2002 is available to the American masses, and the rear-drive sedans out there are all tagged as “premium” with massive stickers. The 3-series, IS-series, and G35 are nice cars if you’re in the bourgeois earning bracket. Even the entry-level BMW 1-series can get spendy in a hurry, and we can’t even touch one. We despirately need dynamically good, affordable RWD cars with clean, unpretentious packaging and weekend warrior performance for realistic prices.
Plain RWD Commodores and Falcons are everywhere in Australia. Why is it that a country with a fraction of the population has regular cars that are far better?
My next car purchase will be a Kappa coupe (if produced) or what becomes of the Mazda Kabura concept. Car nuts are still stinging from Nissan selling a watered-down 240SX and then cancelling it in 1998. It was the last car of its ilk, and we want more. Build me a Solstice GT turbo hardtop for reasonable money, and you’re mine. Build Saabs that drive like a BMW, and you’ll take the respect, too. RWD is mandatory, no matter what.
I really like the idea of RWD or AWD cars. I know in my mind, whenever I hear that I immediately think performance. I’ve always been told that RWD cars are horrible in the winter, but I still want one. AWD seems really sporty too, but with alot more practicality. This is probably a good thing, it’s just really hard to find on an affordable AWD car is my POV. When I think AWD I normally think subaru or something, whose cars are alot more expensive than their non AWD counterparts from other car manufacturers.
As we’ve seen in the past with variable displacement, fuel injection, I believe that someday a manufacturer will invent a technology that will maximize the capabilities of front wheel drive layouts, one that will enable front-biased cars to acheive near 50/50 weight distribution, allow for high-horsepower engines, and give enthusiasts the fun-to-drive character that RWD enthusiasts currently enjoy.
Obviuosly the auto industry as a whole has not hit that mark yet. The pieces are there: sophisticated transmissions with electronically delivered torque, advanced AWD systems and limited slip front differentials. None of these, however, have been able to sway hardcore RWD enthusiasts from jumping to “the dark side”.
The problem is what to do with all that weight on top of the rear wheels. Short of developing an entirely new engine/transaxle layout that can be moved behind the wheels yet maintain the packaging advantages of FWD, that weight isn’t going anywhere anytime soon.
I’m not going to argue for or againt FWD or RWD, as I believe that both have their places in the auto industry. I will say that whatever drivetrain config that GM decides to go with, let it lead the industry in innovation.
RWD all the way.
Saab, I can understand, I mean, that’s their thing. I dont think people are asking for Rear Wheel Drive Saab’s though, so that wont work for justifying FWD. With the overwhelming success of DC’s LH platform, I think the choice is obvious. Problem is, I cant think of any RWD compacts or sub-compacts offered in America, sans the two seat Mx-5 and Solstice/Sky.
Maybe it’s time for GM to make the bandwagon, rather than joining it. The market is there.
Do I sense a bit of front wheel drive bias in the lead-in to this “poll?”
It’s all pro FWD and not one mention of the merits of RWD, or am I being too sensitive?
Anyway count one vote for RWD on certain platforms like Corvette, the new Retro muscle cars that are in prototype form at the moment and the Monte Carlo so they match what is on the NASCAR tracks.
BTW, nice selection of “Blogs we Like.” (Disclosure: I contribute to Fast Machines.)
I have been a Saab fan for a long time, but you almost lost me to Audi or Infiniti on my last purchase. I purchased a 9-2X over the summer because I really wanted the AWD. But, the car was simply too small to be an effective family car.
This winter I traded it in for a 9-5. I love the car, it is the second one I have owned in the last 5 years — which is why I went back to it. But, I seriously considered an Audi A6 because of the AWD.
In the end I stuck with the 9-5, because it is so much fun to drive. But, in three or four years when I am ready to trade in my 9-5, I would love to have the option for AWD, or a the option to purchase an AWD cross-over vehicle (I need something with better fuel economy than an SUV).
I am a fan of AWD (all wheel drive). You get plenty of traction in all types of weather and its great for handling during a race. Something along the lines of a Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4 AWD or Second Generation Eclipse GSX AWD would be a huge hit for people my age 18-26, as long as it was easy to tune, like the old Mitsubishi’s, Nissan’s, and Honda’s. the main problems that limit tuning are cheap (not well made) parts and ECU’s that don’t allow more flexablity. AWD is what we want over any kinda of drive train. You come out with an good looking, tunable AWD car and I will buy it. AND PLEASE DONT MAKE IT LOOK LIKE AN AVEO!!!
Personally, when it comes to compact cars, FWD seems to be more popular is fine. When I think of RWD, I think more of sports cars or at least “sporty” cars. Of course, there are sporty compacts that have FWD, like the VW GTI…
Of Course, Saab could use something to set it apart from the rest of GM. No offense, but the brand can get a little…shall we say…”bland”…at certain times, and I think a RWD compact car would be different from what everyone else had and it would fun to drive if you guys pulled it off right…
Plus it would be a good selling point for Saab…
Good question. I recently owned an Acura RSX Type-S, which was a blast to drive. However, despite the best efforts of Honda’s engineers, it did suffer from the torque steer inherent to front drive layouts. Also, due to the front drive layout the car lacked balance with over 60% of the weight in the front, which caused terminal understeer. I replaced the car with an Acura TL which suffers the same issues. I also shopped the Lexus IS 250 which is rear wheel drive and the base model costs less than the TL. I enjoyed the rear wheel drive handling dynamics, but I found it impossible to get a good driving position, as I am 6 foot 2 and found the IS 250 a bit cramped. Although I prefer the handling characteristics of rear wheel drive, the better overall value and superior driving position of the TL made the decision easy.
For Saab?
FWD and AWD…no brainer.
I will only buy rear-wheel drive. Other than a front-wheel drive ‘95 Beretta that I drive to and from work, I have only owned Camaro’s, and needless to say, I’m very excited about the new Camaro that will be replacing my Beretta in a few years. I also have a ‘99 Camaro SS convertible that is kept in the garage.
Some people don’t care if a car is FWD or RWD, and don’t know the difference, but I think the market is shifting back to RWD for a reason. You can still have ample space inside a vehicle and perform just fine in bad weather with RWD if it is set up correctly. I really love the new Impala SS but I would never want a V8 FWD car because you can’t use that much power if it’s all going through the front wheels. It baffles me that you would put a V8 in a car, and then handicap it with “Torque Management” software that dumbs it down as it shifts so the transmission doesn’t explode. Doesn’t that defeat the purpose?
FYI, I’m 24 so I guess I would fall under the younger crowd. I am not interested in sport compacts or small cars, but RWD is a requirement for whatever car I buy new.
Wow, this is not even a question. If you are performance oriented, then RWD is the ONLY way to go. I own a FWD car and at 372whp, traction is a luxury I no longer have. I also drive a, just as powerful, RWD car and it is much better for traction, period. Yes FWD can be fast, but a fast FWD car will be an even faster RWD car. Traction is the name of the game and it is insanely hard to keep a high-powered FWD car’s wheels from doing nothing but spinning. Spinning the wheels is only cool the first couple times then it becomes annoying very fast and you only wish you had traction.
While I am quite happy with the current fwd configuration, if SAAB wishes to compete with BMW and Lexus I’m believe RWD will be required.
Having said that, GM needs to pick a strategy and stick with it. We’ve had the promise of the Alfa-SAAB 9-5 with was cancelled. We’ve had the 1/2 baked 9-2, the on again off again 9-4. Now we’re left without anything new until years from now. Please pick a plan and stick with it.
I would say to stand apart for the crowd, you go the RWD route. Technology can overcome some of the RWD drawbacks in poor weather climates with perception a being a greater hurdle.
To save Pontiac, I say a line of small, rear drivers is the answer. No one can claim it’s a rebadged Chevy or something else. It would also be unique in the market place and in my opinion would do very well with the youth and tuner/drifting crowd. Pontiac would be the equivalent of what it was to the youth market in the 1960’s, but in a completely different vein. Think a performance oriented Scion brand.
Camaro is long over due and would capitalize on the market for outfitting classic musclecasr with modern running gear, expect it would be from the factory.
Both Toyota and Nissan are sitting on two cult classics, the Corolla SR5 and 240SX that GM can come in and beat to market while cementing themselves as a youth brand.
Fun-to-drive rear-drive with all-wheel drive for the win.
Something rear engine would be nice too.
I think if it is under 200hp a fwd car is a good idea. Much beyond that and a rwd car is more fun.
You are in a tough spot with Saab. It’s always been FWD and I don’t think GM is committed to making it competitive with BMW and Audi. So keep it FWD and try to be competitive with the Lexus ES series.
There is no doubt that the premium market prefers RWD because it is more fun to drive but there is a niche for premium FWD that the ES serves.
You are sort of admitting that GM’s FWD cars have not been “set up correctly.” You should be worrying more about your bread-and-butter sedans. You should be cutting three quarters of your brands, consolidating your product line, and making something that’s at least marginally competitive with the Accord and Camry. Saab is a distraction.
I think on a fun or sporty car driving dynamics should outwiegh fiscal and production concerns. So I’d lean toward rear-drive on anything but a boring family sedan or econobox should be RWD. Take a cue from BMW. Nobody wants to spend BMW money on a car that drives like a front-drive Pontiac.
GM Has fun to drive FWD Cars already like the Grand Prix GXP. Also the Cobalt. The Pontiac Vibe has great handling and awesome winter traction but is lacking in the power output area.
If you ask me GM needs a RWD to AWD car. A good car to make AWD would be the Cobalt but the frame structure might not be capable. A small sporty RWD car is needed to compeat with the Mazada RX8 and Mustang. If it comes with AWD it will sell better because it will handle better and appeal to a daily driver to us in the Areas where we get snow.
pleeeeeeease no more front wheel drive on vehicles especially not on the NEW CAMARO!!!!!!! Im 24 years of age and waiting for the new camaro to come out so please dont dissapoint a loyal bowtie customer is willing to buy a american vehicle and no foreign tin can!!!
Hi, first of all, I commend you for taking this approach and reaching out to consumers, who ultimately matter most. I think this is an extremely important question, and one that could ultimately lead GM to new directions and unique directives for certain brands. Ultimately the question should be, how many people are willing to drive a RWD car for the sake of the neutrality, balance, and overall sportiness. No matter what you argue, FWD simply cannot replicate the athletic feel and perfect balance that a well-proportioned RWD car can; and the FWD cars you make, aside from the Astra, are not compelling arguments in your favor either. RWD in today’s world is a premium feature. Luxury makes and expensive cars have it, but aside from the 350Z, Mustang and a couple other lower priced cars, there are no sporty cars in the 15k-30k region offered. GM has oft-been critized of being late to the party and not understanding where the customer is going and where they would like to be. In the last few years we have witnessed an explosion of all RWD/AWD cars that has amounted to significant market share gains at many automakers. Infiniti, Chrysler, Ford, BMW, MB, Lexus have all seen revolutions in recent times led by RWD cars. Can people in the middle of the country utilize RWD and not suffer because of it? Yes, this is proven. Countless hundreds of thousands of people drive BMWs every year in the Snow Belt. This is not the question GM should be asking. The question GM needs to ask themselves is, what are our brand’s positioning and where do they need to go in order to survive. I am talking Buick, I am speaking of Pontiac. Thier death is almost imminent; a drastic upheaval of how cars are designed at those particular brands NEEDS to take place if I am to be thinking of Pontiac and Buick in the present-sense in 2015. This kind of upheaval does not mean abandoning the current market, but offering things even the current market for those makes could relish, and expanding beyond that base and winning back consumers from the imports. A RWD G6, G4, and G8 would be perfect for Pontiac. With the right ocntent, styling, packaging, and pricing of around 15-45k for the entire range, Pontiac would see an intense revival. As you’ve already surmised, I am a RWD proponent. I am not oppposed to AWD vehicles built off of RWD platforms. RWD with the kind of technology cars are packing today is more than enough for many. I can understand there are some who live in particularly hilly areas of the Snow Belt who might feel they really do need it, but I wager them to drive a new car with modern technology that is RWD and a set of snow tires and experience the reality of it. If they still need AWD, find by me, my plan calls to offer it. The new Camaro platform is something that should leveraged across Pontiac and Buick for smaller sedans, a revival of the Skylark and a new G6. The G6 would be the ultimate sport sedan priced at around where it is now. Make it with a retro Firebird face, a lot like newer Alfa’s, don’t forget aggressive and sexy body, and it’ll sell. Buick’s version would be a competitor to the S40, A4, 9-3, TSX. Cars Buick SHOULD be competing against. Come on GM, what is it going to take for you to learn that all a brand needs is new, groundbreaking product for a revival. We’ve got the quality and reliability, go for it! You did it at Cadillac with massive success despite questionable quality [interior quality and design does not match the competition, no excuses, performance doesn't always match rivals]; and this is only one brand story of the past five years that have seen automakers fighting for whatever piece of the pie they can. To conclude this, I will be in the market in a year for a sporty convertible right about the size of the current 3-series. I know you won’t be able to offer that car within a year, but I expect my tastes won’t change, and I have always wanted the sporties, most tossable car I could find. Build it for me and I will help revive Pontiac.
I would suggest you look at something like Nissan’s FM platform as an example. They are able to make an assortment of well handling vehicles from this platform. Front wheel drive has an advantage in packaging but has perceived limits in handling and performance with car guys. What GM needs is flexibility to change quickly when the marketplace changes. For example, gas prices are high and Toyota has a full hybrid and GM brings out new large SUVs and has only partial hybrids. I really want to see GM succeed but it will take a new vision and a willingness to change some corporate values. Instead of asking about FWD vs RWD how about AWD? A FM type platform can accomplish that in a spectacular way.
I think RWD is far superior in most regards. While it is true that FWD is move drivable in inclimate weather, Any other time RWD has the advantage. Here are a few RWD advantages (IMO): Better weight transfer on accelleration. Able to handle more power. Able to do “fishtails”
. Better balance. Longitudinal motor. No Torque steer. Oversteer vs. understeer. Think about it, the best cars in the world are typically RWD, there is a reason. Why were the Buick GN and Impala SS (early 90’s)so d**n popular while thier more powerful and refined FWD offspring are either too boring to be cool or too full of shortcomings to be taken seriously. I have posted elsewhere that a great car for GM would be a large, 5 passenger convertible RWD V8. Thats the formula. A completely unfilled niche. Good modern styling with a few retro cues.
In many ways, this is another case of “GM can do no right”.
The fact is for years front-wheel drive has worked fine and been refined and made better…anyone remember several years ago how the ‘geniuses’ at Audi came out with that complex front suspension system that could handle higher levels of power and not torque steer?
Now, however, the tide of public opinon has been swayed, and I believe largely by the press, that modern, highpower smaller cars can *never* handle the turning, braking and acceleration all through the front wheels.
True? Not exactly, but to come out with a small, sporty, front-wheel drive car is to swim against the tide (acura, anyone?)
It can be done, Acura comes out with the TL and it’s still front wheel drive and even THEY are criticized… but the new TSX is highly praised. Front-wheel drive.
Let’s face it, GM is absolutely not going to get any slack. _I_ personally would prefer a RWD over FWD in a small sporty sedan, but GM is between the proverbial rock and hard place.
If you buck the current trends and stay (lets say with Saab) with FWD, you’ll be criticized for not advancing. If you switch the 93 to a RWD platform, the Saab purists will criticize you for ‘further’ ruining the brand.
Hope it helps!
The key in my opinion is to offer options. It would seem that the Cobalt and Ion should remain FWD for all the reasons you mentioned. However, a well executed G4 RWD sedan and coupe would fit with Pontiac’s image.
Currently, Pontiacs vehicles do not top the class in fun to drive, even against brands that don’t proclaim it – such as Nissan, let alone Mazda. In GT form Pontiacs need to outhandle Mazdas. Currently, GT means power pedals and huge sunroofs. Make it mean class leading handling.
Take a look at the Lexus IS exterior, and imagine a sharply defined twin port grill. Standard 2.4L, GT optional 2.0 turbo, GXP 2.8 HF turbo.
Don’t go for “value” – for once break open a new segment. Shoot for 95% of the 325i at 70% of the cost. Let Chevy sell the value. Make an exciting car, and people will pay for it. Just make sure it has an AWD option and a backseat that can accomodate adults.
Definitely rear-wheel drive. There is simply nothing else that can match it for ability. Its hard to give a front-wheel drive car a performance image when all serious sports and race cars are rear wheel drive. Devices like traction control can give rear wheel drive cars improved capability in bad weather. Rear wheel drive has not been any deterrent to customers in recent years; Consider popular cars like the Ford Mustang and Chrysler 300C — successful models employing rear wheel drive.
I know that if I were making a buying choice between two cars of equal specifications, one front wheel drive and one real wheel, I would definitely choose the rear wheel drive car any day.
Front wheel drive may be fine and dandy for cars like Saabs, Cobalts and Monte Carlos (ugh) but let’s face it, how many times has Chevrolet considered making the Corvette front wheel drive? How’s that GTO front wheel drive prototype coming along?
What GM needs (desperately) is a small, affordable car with decent power, a slick 6 speed manual, a well tuned suspension and rear wheel drive to set the pace in that market segment, instead of just trying to keep up with the likes of the Acura RSX and Civic Si. If the current Cobalt SS were rear wheel drive, the waiting list would be huge.
I have owned a couple of “performance” cars that are front wheel drive (my 258hp 6 speed Acura TL included) and when the lease is up on my car I am returning to rear wheel drive for good. There is no substitute for a well balanced rear wheel drive chassis. Will GM fill that section of the market or will I have to go with a used BMW?
Rear-wheel drive with a v8 that is pretty much the only reason to shop domestic at this point and its what GM should go for. I have a 2004 cavalier and its a handy cheap car but it’s one not as fun as a rear wheel drive car and two drives much worse than any front wheel drive car I’ve ever driven. So instead of chasing other manufacturers down the front-wheel drive road where very few of your buyers even want to go GM may as well play to its strengths and heritage and go rear-wheel drive with an optional v8 in everything you build.
REAR DRIVE!!
I am a 23-year-old automotive enthusiast and member of the Philly region SCCA. I currently own an extensively modified Honda Civic that I autocross in the street modified class, and I love sport compacts. From the standpoint of pure driving dynamics, as far as any car with sporting intentions is concerned, I greatly prefer rear wheel drive; however, I also have no problem with changing to a set of snow tires for the winter.
The car I currently aspire to (and have long wished for) is your new Chevrolet Camaro, assuming you build it. I plan to buy one whenever it is finally produced. I also love your Solstice, but I’d wait for the rumored hard-top turbo version.
Properly tuned, a front wheel drive car can drive beautifully, and often times, at least as good as its rear drive counterparts. For a sporty car, though, I will only consider front drive if it is small (no bigger than your Cobalt), light (preferably below 2800 pounds) and equipped with a limited slip differential. I would also never pay any more than $25k for a front drive sports car.
My biggest problem with a front drive sports car is its inability to properly handle much more than 250hp and still handle well. The limits for rear drive are much higher across the board.
Incidentally, I’m not a big fan of all wheel drive; especially not as an alternative to rear wheel drive. The drive systems are heavy (lightness is very important to me), fuel economy suffers, and they also cover up much of the feedback the car’s chassis would otherwise be transmitting.
No problems with FWD. Would not have it any other way.
I’m from Edmonton Alberta and I have to say, I really like FWD, I’ve had to drive short wheel base RWD vehicles in the winter up here before and it’s not only not fun, it’s unsafe.
I would not likely buy a RWD car again, I could lean to AWD but only if it had a FWD bias of more than 50% when required.
I am a student at the University of Michigan-Ann Arbor and will be purchasing a sport-compact in two years. I’m a 19yr old male who considers himself a car enthusiast. Personally, for compact cars, I prefer fwd WITH THE OPTION OF ALL WHEEL DRIVE!!! For space, winter weather in the midwest, and the fact that the Camaro will be coming out, this is my desire. To be honest, as long as an AWD option occurs, I’m fine either way. But KEEP THE PRICE DOWN, if its cheaper to do fwd (source:delta) with awd option, do it. If its cheaper for rwd with an option for awd (source:kappa 2+2) then do it. Lastly, I really love that Cobalt SS-S/C you are producing, its an amazing car (I’ve ridden/driven it) and the supercharger is fantastic. Keep us updated.- Brian
I definately want to see more RWD drive vehicles. The performance just doesn’t seem to “be there” in FWD and cars have steadily gotten more boring since FWD became popular. I’d also like something that can perform well for UNDER $30K. With today’s technology in stability and traction aids RWD should also be able to perform well in the winter. Look at Europe and all the RWD Mercedes, BMW’s and Porsches running around in the snow.
I believe GM should be able to provide the “perfect car” to anyone who wants a car. That being said, I fail to wonder why in the world is this question being asked in the first place???
As an owner of a Saab, I fully understand the concept and experience of a “perfectly balanced FWD performance car.” I guess you can say Saab are “properly set up.” ANd always have been
There should be a set level of FWD competency in every single car GM makes. Cars like Cobalt or G6, while nice, aren’t always the most fun to “throw around.” Cars like the Mini Cooper and the Civic are.
It won’t matter if the next-gen “small car” is FWD, RWD or AWD. What matters to the younger generation is 1) style, 2) affordability, 3) fun to drive. If you don’t have that, then who cares?
Do what is smart… build a stylish and fun car that is both affordable and performs well. RWD/FWD/AWD doesn’t matter.
Front wheel drive is fine for most applications (especially in the snow belt). However, when it comes to performance, full size luxury, and ‘working’ vehicles (e.g. police cars) rear drive is the only way to go. Durability and lower cost and complexity are bonuses.
Sorry if this is a bit long winded. It’s been a hot topic amongst my friends.
It maybe more practical and even more competitive to be front wheel drive in loose traction situations, but in rear drive it’s way more fun. It’s like playing Asteriods for real. Controlling all those vectors is a real blast.
I’m personally not convinced that front drive is more competitive, all though some of the younger guys try to convince me of it. Ultimately they look at it from a price point. There is nothing rear drive that they can afford to drive. So they convince themselve that front drive is better. Why do you think the small truck market is popular? It’s certainly not because we need trucks, it’s just the only cheap rear-drive platform out there.
We REALLY NEED a bare bones, no frills, cheap, easy to mod rear drive platform. Maybe it wouldn’t be the top seller, maybe it’s not the most practical but MAN what it would do for the brand. It’s the tuners that are recommending cars and fixing them. If the tuner can drive a car from the brand they like, that’s the brand they will recommend for everything else. And all the tuners I know don’t have a ton of cash, unlike the Fast and the Furious misconception. Which is why the old beat-up Civics are being used for tuners. In my area the older 90s Cavaliears are becoming popular. And the mods they do are generally very cheap …. rims, K&N filters, muffler tips (uggg). But despite the fact that these mods hardly do anything, they are still really popular and guys like that are the guys doing the recommending.
I’ve just turned 30 and have a family and have to put family first. For this reason I can’t drop even $20,000 CDN on a toy. I have to think practical. But boy would I LOVE to have a toy to tinker with. I’ve been a car enthusiast forever and I do all the maintenance and repairs on pretty much everybodies’ cars that I know. They look to me for what they should be buying.
I think the Solitice is a cool concept, but the Chevy version is going to be out of my reach. And the Solitice is getting artificially inflated in price and very hard to get a hold of. We have the Optra around here, so I’ve given that some serious thought since it can be had for $15,000 or even less. That is bare bones. ABS is an option, the stereo is single DIN, air conditioning is an option. What’s there is for one purpose, driving.
All you need to produce is one inexpensive rear-drive model and you will have every tuners attention! The rest can all be front drives. For practicality the front drives are superior. More space and better everyday handling characteristics. So for every practical choice the Impalas, Malibus, Grand Prix and Grand Ams of the world are perfect just the way they are. We just need an inexpensive read-drive Camaro that us tuners can tinker with and you will make a lot of VERY happy people. Now, mind you, don’t go cheap on what you do put into it. Make sure you have a solid body and suspension so that any mods isn’t going to tear the car apart. My wife loves the Mustang and I’m almost convinced on it because it’s almost within my price range but if you build a Camaro with damm good style and a solid chasis underneath the rest of the bits just need to get the job done and allow us to do the tweaking and tuning after that.
My opinion is that you guys invented the aftermarket world, but you have completely alienated it. Your cars are complete off the show room floor leaving us no room to make mods and we end up paying for it too. Mods let us pay for the cool bits of hardware as we can afford it. A big purchase price leaves us with a big bill to justify and no fun left when we do manage to buy it.
George
Front wheel drive is definitely preferable. Just be sure to combine it with great handling. Think Civic or 3-Series as your handling target, Passat as your interior target, Civic as your drive layout target, and Civic or 3-Series as your styling target. PLEASE, don’t emmulate the 300C. And no pseudo-1970’s cars, please. Those were bad enough in the 1970’s. I have no desire to buy one. Fresh new designs, not recycled old designs, please.
I have to say that I always associated rear-wheel drive with performance but I recently bought a used ‘02 9-3 and it’s a blast to drive. With the right tires it’s even great in the snow.
The only problem is I don’t like the torque-steer when I step on it.
This is a daily driver; If I was going to buy a performance minded vehicle that was a second vehicle for sunny days, it would have to be rear wheel drive.
And age, I’m 24.
A rear drive Camaro,with a DEI engine,that would blow the doors off a roush or shelby mustang,would be a real show stopper,
RWD please.
the most enjoyable cars I ever drove- Mercury Villager, Miata, and 328i…2 out of 3 and RWD wins in my book. For steering feel- the RWD was clearly better in all cases. That is important to me as a young guy who likes to scare his girlfriends in the passenger seat. If y’all could also put in a bench seat in the next RWD car…that would help me immensely.
RWD (or AWD for certain models) for all V8s! FWD should only for small cars with small engines. Look at what Chrysler is doing! Oh yeah build the Camaro NOW!!!
I have a G6 GTP Sedan (manual). The engine is great, but the FWD totally saps all the fun out of driving it. Between torque steer and a low traction limit on acceleration, I’m almost exasperated. My previous car was a Chrysler 300C (bought it at 22 years old). I much prefer RWD, and snow traction was never a major issue.
For Saab, I think AWD would stay closer to the brand’s identity than RWD.
But for small sporty cars for other GM brands, RWD is definitely a wise move. It’s what I’m buying next. I hope GM has it, or it’s back to Chrysler.
Thank you for the question.
The simple answer is Saab needs to be Saab and stick with its roots. Front drive is good for Sweden, snow and Saab. Does that mean you can’t have rear drive? Of course not but your image is not to be confused with Pontiac or what it should be.
Saab is quite simply an addiction. These are some of the most beautiful cars in the world the trick is to get new people into your dealerships with something fresh.
Here is the problem. GM put all of its eggs in the front wheel drive basket. Japanese luxury brands did the opposite. This perception as always was to the imports favor. The actual problem is GM left another gaping hole in its line up which the imports kindly filled.
Here is where Saab and GM is still losing and I will use an analogy.
GM and Saab always wear too much of yesterdays make-up. Honda and Toyota have perfected the art of finesse-the annual dress. As we speak the Sienna and Pilot have received subtle changes to their front facias that give these products just enouph new make up to make them look revived and restored, refreshed and renewed. Not a billion dollar makeover but enouph that many will see these vehicles in a new light.
Saab can’t wait and sometimes does not need a billion dollar makeover, just new makeup and a new dress every once in a while.
GM does not need to tear apart Saab or the La Crosse nor does it have to wait five years to make them look new. Just learn to finesse and Saab, you need to do it too. Your thinking too hard it’s this simple
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Yesterday’s dress will no longer impress.
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The Colbolt supposed to replace the Cavalier and the 400,000 Sunfires and Aleros on the road. Now that we are down from three to one will they should finesse it every year. It’s carrying the weight of three modles. Okay we know the car is a hot shot it does not need a $1 billion makeover, but it can not wait three years and get old either.
GM, Saab you need to do more finessing, every two years at least, on your high volume cars especially. Now that many of your products are the best in their class, just change the grill and head lights on the G6 next year for example to keep it fresh.
Then three years from now when the rear drive Solstice 4 door comes out it will be ready to blast off when it’s ready to replace the million G6’s on the road. GM you got to finesse, you need the new dress.
Don’t forget to finesse.
We’re specifically discussing SAAB here, right? SAAB has never sold a model meant to be a street racer. Off road racing, yes (for which AWD would be optimal). Two of SAAB’s core values are fuel economy and environmentalism. The added weight of an AWD setup reduces fuel economy but is preferable to FWD in some applications.
I would suggest FWD with an AWD option in all models. In performance-oriented models (such as a successor to the Viggen or a high-powered BioPower model) with high hp/torque output I would exclusively go with AWD to transfer that power to the pavement. Torque steer tends to be a problem in these FWD applications.
If front wheel drive is tradition at Saab, keep it. I like the idea of a RWD car from Saab, but would never be able to afford one anytime soon. As for other makes by GM, RWD all the way, but you gotta keep FWD too on some models.
Awsome job on the Camaro, hope it gets out faster than I can hope for!!!!
Well, I don’t suppose I’m typical, but I’m not buying anymore front wheel drive vehicles.
I’ve replaced one too many CV joints, and FWD cars are actually not all that good in snow if you’re going uphill and lose traction.
I have a used diesel RWD car now, and that’s what I’ll be looking for next time I buy a new car.
To compete you need a mix. Just look at the following of BMW, Mercedes, etc.
For DOMESTIC use it is darn hard to beat the FWD. It used to not be as reliable and very expensive to repair, but they seem to have this largely solved now — granted I also favour either strong factory warranties, and/or well price add on warranties like Toyota has.
RWD is better for trucks and larger vehicles (or race cars).
I’m a 19 year old male, I live in NY, and I have never driven a RWD car, but I assume that I would prefer it over FWD. All the video games I played growing up were in RWD race cars, so I’d love to have a car similar to the virtual ones I have raced and crashed. I agree with many others on here that the “performance” cars should be RWD while the others should be FWD. The lack of RWD in models such as the Grand Prix and the Monte Carlo just make those cars somewhat “fake” in my opinion. The Grand Prix looks like a performance car with RWD, but it doesn’t. The Monte Carlo is linked to NASCAR, but it doesn’t have RWD either. The race cars I’ve always seen growing up were RWD, so I would like to see true, practical, affordable, RWD performance cars in the GM lineup.
I am a young car buyer. GM needs RWD to stay alive. I will not buy a FWD car. I don’t care about a tunnel dividing the rear legroom. Can you imagine a FWD porsche? I am the market for the new Colbalt SS, but I don’t care about it. Why? FWD. RWD makes all the difference in the world. Think about any GM car that there has gained a really passionate following. Is it FWD or RWD? If GM wants to make a sports car to compete for todays young car market, it needs to be RWD, well balanced, lightweight, and have an avaliable turbo engine. Not some screw-type blower either. Turbo engines aren’t just more efficient, they push the aftermarket and build the reputation of the car. Look at the success of cars powered by the SR20DET or the RB26DETT, the 3SGTE, the 4G63, the F20C (F22C), all legendary engines. I want GM to make a car with an engine like that. Also, think about the layouts of the cars those engines rest in. AWD, RWD. The cobalt SS can’t really be taken seriously when compared to those vehicles. How about Mid Engine? Who offers that (besides certain germans for $50K)? My generation knows about cars. They know about them in a different way though. We know less about CID and more about CM^3. We less about boring and stroking and more about Volumetric Efficiency. Take heed. We’re a bigger market than you think. GM needs to contend. A new Camaro is a great thing for older guys who have a lot of money to spend and want a big heavy car with a big engine, but I don’t. All of the foreign automakers (perhaps honda aside, but they obviously get the light and efficient thing) and even chrysler and ford are getting that RWD is back. At the end of the day, FWD sucks. If you want people to buy cars, make them fun. RWD is fun.
At Saab, there is a long and storied tradition of fast, reliable rally cars. These cars fed significant power through the front wheels and yet remained stable and entertaining to drive, which proved particularly important in long-distance races.
so how about making that new Z06 FWD?
I know I go rallying all the time… especially in my saab…
I don’t understand why GM thinks RWD is important in high dollar cars (car?) but not in tuneable sport compacts. Like those people don’t know the difference…
RWD and AWD. If GM does not utilise a large RWD platform soon, what will they have to compete with the Chrysler LX cars? An FWD Impala SS? I think not.
RWD seems more popular for large/midsize cars, though it is cool in the Sky and Solstice. A compact RWD sedan/coupe would fit in as a Pontiac ONLY car. I’m a Chevy fan but I’d like Pontiac to be more unique. Keep the G6 as a FWD volume seller though otherwise the dealers would kill you.
Pontiac- Small/Mid/Large RWD
(some FWD aka G6,Torrent)
Chevy- Small/Midsize FWD (Aveo,Cobalt,Malibu)
Midsize/Large RWD
(Camaro,Monte,Impala)
Otherwise just work on Mid to Large RWD cars and improving the FWD compact cars you already have.
Especially the Ion, I mean Saturn was founded with a compact FWD car and all their new products are either RWD (Sky) or Midsize (Aura,Outlook). Though don’t just remake an Opel Astra as a Saturn. Let Saturn develop a class leading FWD compact car that is unique, yet not weird (Ion). That is their most important model. Not only does it bring in first-time buyers, it also brings in the people who bought the first Saturns.
Informally speaking, Yes, GM would do good to have RWD compact car that doesn’t break the bank at the car lot or when the insurance bill comes in. 200-250hp out of a DOHC V6 (ShortStar?) would be a good start…turbos would be a nice upgrade option. Let Saab do what they want, but Pontiac should have done this with the G6.
What everyone here seems to be forgetting (or not knowing in the first place) is that safety is the number one important thing for a Saab! Saab should be FWD or AWD. The day Saab makes a rear wheel drive car is the day I no longer want a new Saab.
First off, I’m a 17 year old male who is fanatical about Pontiac and have been for most of my life. I currently own a 95 Grand Am GT with the Quad4 and a 5spd. It has experienced critical engine complications and didn’t think it was worth fixing. It hasn’t been that great of a car. Therefore, I am currently in the market for another vehicle. As I scanned my choices, only one car stood out, the Nissan 240SX for its RWD layout. As much as I wanted another Pontiac, I couldn’t justify choosing FWD over RWD. I live in PA, by the way, and usually experience snow from late November to early March. Had Pontiac come out with a compact coupe with RWD during the ’90s, I could easily say that I’d own another Pontiac.
Obviously, I am for RWD. While I respect FWD and have had some fun in my Grand Am, the benefits of RWD are far greater than those of FWD, especially for supposedly sporty vehicle.
My wish is for Pontiac to one day consist of nothing but RWD vehicles. Styling would be sexy, sleek, and thoroughly modern designs that are not afraid to be aggressive and soulful (unlike the G6 which is quite bland). My proposal:
-Grand Am would be the compact coupe, sedan, 5dr hatch, and conv at about 2900lbs. The SE would receive a 2.4L Ecotec with D.I. and a 5spd manual/auto. The GT would receive a High Output verson of the 2.4L Ecotec with D.I. and a 6spd manual/5spd auto.The GXP would receive a detuned version of the Solstice GXP’s turbocharged Ecotec with D.I. and 6spd manual/auto. The coupe and conv would seat 4 while the sedan and hatch would seat 5. AWD would be optional on all trims. Pricing would ideally start around $16k.
-Grand Prix would be the midsize coupe, conv and sedan at about 3200lbs. The SE would recieve a H.O. 2.4L Ecotoc with D.I. and 5spd manual/auto. The GT would receive a 2.8L V6 with D.I. and 6spd manual/auto. The GXP would receive a turbocharged 2.8L V6 with D.I. and a 6spd manual/auto. The coupe and conv would seat 4, the sedan would seat 5. AWD would be optional on all trims. Pricing would ideally start around $20K.
-LeMans would be the fullsize sedan and wagon at about 3600lbs . SE would receive a 3.6L V6 with D.I. and 6spd manual/auto. GT would receive a Northstar 4.4L V8 and 6spd manual/atuo. GXP would receive a turbocharged Northstar 4.4L and 6spd manual/auto. It would seat 5 and AWD would be an option for each trim. Pricing would ideally start around $26k.
-GTO would be based off the Grand Prix with a coupe and conv. Base engine would be an LS2 V8 and a 6spd manual/auto. Optional engine would a High Output version of the LS2 V8 and a 6spd manual. It would seat 4 and pricing would start at around $28k.
-Torrent crossover would be based off the the Grand Prix’s midsize platform. SE would receive the 3.6L V6 and a 6spd manual/auto. GT would receive the 4.4L Northstar V8 and a 6spd manual/auto. It would seat 5 and have standard AWD. Pricing would start around $25k.
That’s my dream, however unlikely it may be. I feel going that route would find success for Pontiac and surely make enthusiasts happy. If atleast a RWD compact makes it to market someday, you have a buyer right here.
The GM Holden Torana Concept Car shown at the Australian Auto show in 2004 is a perfect example of what’s missing and needed in the GM line-up world wide.
This kind of car would be aimed at the large world-wide market that now belongs to the BMW 3-series & Lexus IS.
RWD with today’s traction control technology is a much better & more rewarding setup than FWD. It also affords sportier proportions and street cred.
AWD needs to be applied VERY carefully. In most segments AWD will NOT sell. AWD adds weight, cost and reduces fuel economy. It is also an ‘invisible’ feature the customer cant touch or fully appreciate. They simply wont pay any extra for it!
I would vote for RWD in small/med aspirational sports luxury segments. FWD for economy/comfort segments.
As for Saab – i don’t know what to think. There is no direction for this brand. Where does it sit relative to the other GM brands?
If it is to stack up against the best of the European brands, then clearly Saabs should ride on RWD platforms.
Saab needs a hot aspirational concept car (like the camaro for chevy) to clearly define their direction.
An interesting question, and one that can be debated endlessly, as I can see being done so here. But it seems to me that the phrasing of the question does very little to hide the author’s own bias. What about a similar paragraph or two devoted to singing RWD and AWD’s praises?
To that end, I do agree that FWD is a better option for compact and sub-compact cars, with exceptions of course.
I don’t see the market supporting an AWD Camaro, so I would suggest positioning the next generation GTO as a world class AWD 400HP sophisticated monster available for about $40K to $45K. There is a big gap between the Corvette and the $30K sports cars that needs to be filled with some American attitude. Don’t follow the trends. Create them.
SAAB is traditionally a Front-engined, front wheel drive car. Two or four doors and a hatchback, a slightly underpower engine under the hood coupled to a tall-geared transmission. (Unless it’s a turbo, then the gears a matched perfectly) The interior is roomy, with nice tall-back chairs covered in buttery soft leather. The Dash is fully-instrumented and curvey. And there are tiny wipers for the headlights.
I don’t know why GM has been makign SAABs as they are now, but they medicore. A fully restored 900 is far preferable to anythign you can find on the showroom floor today.
I have often read this blog, but never bothered to comment. This particular entry intrigues me however.
RWD is popular among younger car buyers because it has a longer, more relevant history in motorsports than FWD and younger crowds like sporty cars. This has become INFINITELY more relevant because DRIFTING is now immensely popular among the younger demographics, and DRIFTING requires RWD. The connection is pretty obvious.
Similarly obvious though, is that not all younger buyers like drifting, and those who do don’t necessarily want to do it themselves. Therefore a mass shift of focus to RWD for entry level cars is unwarranted.
Also consider then, that the remainder of the younger market is most likely to be made up of enthusiasts.
However, appealing to these enthusiasts with a small sporty RWD car that they can actually afford helps GM in many ways, short term and long term.
It sells small, sporty RWD cars to car enthusiasts, if the product is quality, then it improves GMs reputation with enthusiasts.
When the non-car enthusiasts ask their enthusiast friends about buying a new car, these enthusiasts then hold GM in a higher view and therefore are more likely to recommend a GM purchase, RWD or otherwise. This in turn helps to convince the general public that GM no longer makes the poor quality cars that are so often seasoned with rebates and incentives.
Word of Mouth advertisement is a powerful thing.
To that end:
The following features are appealling to the next generation of car buyers.
DOHC
VVT
Coupes
Forced induction
RWD
Manual Transmission
AFFORDABLE
GM’s current line up of small, affordable RWD coupes with available forced induction is seriously lacking.
For that matter, there are few, if any car makers that offer a compact, affordable RWD car, aside from roadsters which are impractical more often than not. This is a neglected segment that GM needs to claim control of first.
If you want to sell/appeal to younger crowds, do this:
Make a sporty, compact, RWD coupe.
Think Nissan 240sx meets BMW 3 series.
To save developement costs with less brand overlap, make a RWD sedan versoin of this car for a different brand.
The coupe needs to seat 4, but not necessarily comfortably.
NO V8. People who really want a v8 in this car will install it themselves, saving GM the developement costs for an option that carries too many gas guzzling characteristics to be a popular selection for the target market.
NO OHV. Young people view this as ancient technology.
6 cylinders at the maximum, but a I4 with a optional turbo/supercharger would be ideal. RWD ECOTEC is a good start and is already engineered for the Solstice/Sky. Even among Die-Hard import fans, the ECOTEC carries respect and credibility, just not so much with the cars they tend to propel. A car such as I am describing create a few converts.
NO PLASTIC ENGINE COVER. These are a waste of money.
A 6 speed manual would help, but a 5 speed will suffice
An optional paddle shift automatic might make a few sales
IRS is not necessary…
Solstice/Sky underpinnings would be a good start.
A simple interior is a must (very symetrical design for easy Left hand drive/Right hand drive swap.DON’T go too cheap on the materials,
Keep in mind that many young people will want to add their own audio equipment (subwoofers, etc…) so leave room for these items, but don’t waste money too on the stock sound system.
Saturn style rear hinged doors would be ideal, but keep a traditional 2 door on hand just in case (see “Saturn Ion/Chevy Cobalt”)
Offer an array of spoilers and hood styles (ram air, cowl, etc), Optional Striping packages wouldn’t hurt either.
Base model MUST cost less than $19,000.
Fully loaded model must NOT cost more than $27,000
When it comes time for the next generation of this platform, make it slightly larger all around. mid/late 90’s Chevy Malibu size would be a good guideline. Offer any form of 6 cyl. engine with forced induction. label it the Buick GNX. Do NOT use RETRO styling cues for this Buick. This will vastly improve Buicks image with younger crowds, hence keeping Buick profitable when it’s existing fanbase dies out.
If you found this comment to be helpful, and if you want to keep your cars interesting (and selling) for future generations, I would be happy to work for you and to help make sure your product stays competitive.
Seriously. Send me information.
GM already makes a ga-zillion RWD vehicles every year. They’re called TRUCKS! ‘Nuff said.
I’m going to go against the flow here. I say front drive is still best for most drivers, in most situations, in most of the country. Street dragging stoplight derby junkies will like rear-wheel drive for the traction advantage during the pronounced rearward weight transfer on takeoff. But MOST people don’t drive like that!
I think the FWD understeer versus RWD oversteer arguments are specious these days because today’s chassis engineers can build excellent handling with either. RWD BMW 3 series are outstanding, but so are FWD Audi A4s. And with the ever more common electronic stability control enabled, it is often very hard or impossible to tell WHICH end is pulling or pushing the car.
On smooth dry pavement, that is. But people forget that the whole country is not Florida, Texas and California, no matter how big they are or how many electoral votes they hold. A lot of this country is like Wisconsin, with frost heaved, potholed roads – most of them rural – and much of the year covered in snow and/or ice. It is POSSIBLE to control a rear-wheel-drive car on ice, but MOST drivers – even in Wisconsin – have received NO training in how to do so. They tend to do what comes intuitively, which is often precisely the OPPOSITE of what they should do, so they end up in the ditch. Indeed, the 4WD SUV drivers are often the worst!
Front wheel drive is much easier to drive on “iffy” surfaces. Misjudge one’s speed and the car will tend to understeer. If it is not too bad, correcting with more steering is the solution. If speed is definitely too hot, getting off the throttle – a natural and intuitive behavior – will tend to bring the rear end around.
Rear wheel drive, however, requires just the opposite behaviors in slippery conditions. Getting off the throttle will usually cause sudden oversteer, for which the modestly skilled average driver will over-correct, sending him or her a**-first into the ditch.
In a spin, throttle and steering can almost always pull a FWD car straight. RWD is trickier; throttle and steering will almost always make a spin WORSE!
As for all-wheel drive, its only advantage for most people is traction on slippery roads, especially in hilly country. But for most, the extra weight, complexity, fuel consumption and cost are not worth it.
To sum up, on good pavement, in good weather, a skilled driver can do better with rear wheel drive. But that is an ideal situation that in real life is uncommon. Most drivers are NOT that skilled. And most roads in the U.S. are dilapidated and getting worse. And there are too many places in the U.S. where the weather really sucks a substantial portion of the year.
In real-world, mostly crappy conditions FWD is best all around for its predictability and stability, coupled with relatively low weight, complexity and cost. AWD is for people in more extreme conditions (like really bad weather, road or rally racing) who are willing to pay the cost. Performance isn’t ALL about straight-line pavement-ripping acceleration. For driving really fast on the “twisty bits,” I find FWD throttle steering to be easier and more predictable than with rear wheel drive.
Logically, I only see two real advantages to rear wheel drive – hard, straight-line acceleration; i.e. drag or street racing. Or parking lot power oversteer “doughnut” tourneys. All these are behaviors that are sophomoric at best (unbefitting anyone past the mental age of 15), and at worst can get one in jail or in the coroner’s office. Beyond this, it’s just a terrible waste of perfectly good rubber, and at $150-$200 per tire, I can’t afford it! There is no real logic behind those who beckon for rear wheel drive. Old muscle car devotees and other traditionalists want rear wheel drive because… well… just BECAUSE!! God intended that cars be made that way!
And don’t mention torque steer! A well-engineered modern FWD car shows virtually no trace of it. My own Jetta, with 220 horsepower through the front wheels torque steers NOT ONE IOTA! Remarkably, the new Impala front driver with the small-block V-8 doesn’t torque steer either!
Make rear wheel drive for people who insist on having it, but it is not the best thing for the majority. Most people just want safe, predictable handling on the roads THEY drive, regardless of which end is driving the car.
[As I write this, it is snowing - a good 5 inches so far. On my way home, I motored by, cautiously but confidently, in my "weenie" FWD Jetta VR6 while my idiot neighbor down the street was futilely struggling for a running start to get his monstrous, butt-ugly Chrysler 300 Hemi up the slight incline without spinning the car around and bashing the parked cars on either side. Welcome to MY world! Rear wheel drive, my a**!]
I live in Finland so RWD is out of the question because of the long winter. Of course RWD can be hazardous in summer wet too, ESP or not.
Personally I feel that RWD should be only used in supercars.
Problem of AWD is, that it can go 4-wheel slide, without warning if you go too fast and then you are in trouble.
With FWD is quite rare that both ends of the car would loose contact at the same time, it’s always rear or front and situation is fixable.
Other problems of AWD are extra cost and weight, that are correlated. And not forgetting extra fuel consumption.
Where is the balance between exotic materials and price?
Saab should get AWD option for its top models and I say option because quite many Saabist have no problem what so ever with torque steering.
From that we get into biggest design/engineering problem of Saab. USA vs Europe, they want totally different cars!
Your question:
“should we work toward fun-to-drive front-drive or is rear-drive with all-wheel drive a better solution?”
Is very very tricky one, because only you know real difference of them with what ever car you are engineering.
What would be the laptime difference of them? What would be the weight of AWD?
Me as a future customer has to know these specs.
But with small cars, RWD is idiotic from my point of view.
If you have to ask if rear or front is better, and if you don’t know what customers want … no wonder GM is loosing their shirts.
Rear wheel drive and 50/50 weight balance is the reason I’ve had 2 BMWs now. And I grew up in a GM household. However you make nothing for me. The closest you’ve come is the Pontiac Solistic … however you gave it no power.
Oh and you turned the GTO into a giant Grand Am. Please do everyone a favor and make the new Camaro … make it just like the concept … and put a great engine in it. When I mean great … I mean NO pushrods. Lets get a modern engine under the hood.
And while your at it improve your interiors … I am still disapointed by your latest work in the Corvette and Solstice.
Make the car RWD. Higher some people that can design a decent looking car. Get the engineers to produce an interior that doesn’t feel like cheap garbage and then I might look at a GM vehicle.
The drive configuration that you choose is model dependent.
FWD for the forthcoming (?)
Camaro – ¬° No way, José !
RWD for the econobox crowd -
¬° Ditto !
It all comes down to your starting to practice the currently successful manufacturing/marketing dogma that has made your Far Eastern competition what it is today, ‘ What do they want and why do they want it.’
Continue to ignore that at your own peril.
Allen McDonald, El Galloviejo ®
Tejano, Tico, Chircano Adoptado
I think it depends on the application. In a small, low-budget car, I would give the nod to fwd, as it provides more interior-space.
When it comes to performance-cars, though, rwd or awd are my favorites. I also really can’t understand the bad-weather advantages that are so often cited for fwd cars. I think it’s right the contrary. Whenever it rains, my front-tires spin like h**l once I hit my accelertor pedal a little too strongly. I know, in extreme situations like snow and ice, fwd cars are said to be easier to drive, but in these cases, traction control tame a rwd car to acceptable levels without any significant loss in driving pleasure under better conditions.
On the other hand, erasing the shortcomings of fwd like torque-steer always means watering down the information that’s sent through the steering wheel.
So for me, rwd is the clear winner in any performance application.
MUTE POINT!! IT DOESN’T MATTER AT ALL!!.
Because whichever it is, GM will make the car with your characteristic, irritating, numb/vaugue steering, floppy suspension with the struts lasting 40k miles, and the overall sloppy-nervous road feel.
And guess what?! You don’t need to loop the Nurburgring track in Germany 999 times to figure it out! I can tell if the car “has it” on a five minute trip to Wal-Mart.
This has been a criticism of GM for decades in nearly every enthusiast magazine test report. You don’t get my cash because of it.
But of course, ‘Your are GM; you know better, don’t you?’ You will you say: “If it doesn’t increase our JD Power score, we won’t do it!” Or you will say: “If we can’t get X-more units sold, we won’t do it!” Or you will say: “If we can’t make it globally-common, we won’t do it!” Or you will say it costs $1.25 too much per car.
Well, you guys simply don’t get it, period.
Why not use FWD and limit turbo pressure in gear 1-3?
Saab is not about 0-60 it is about high torque at low revs – at least here in Europe
And now imagine Saab with a V8 3,5l
As a Saab-driver who started his Saab career in 1973 and has driven up to now 7 Saab and now ordered the 8th (9-3 SS), my opinion is:
Front-wheel drive as the special feature of this brand and based on its history.
AWD (9-3 or a smaler model)only in such cases where the marketing-group can firmly foresee a safe winning situation.
saabaudi(Germany)
The important thing is to remember that Saab is a Scandinavian car – and should be able to sell well not only in the US. If you loose the hardcore Saab-community, you loose some very important ambassadors for the marque. A rwd-Saab will never be accepted as a real Saab by these. At the same time a lot of people are interested in rwd – to please everyone, the obvious choice is to go with fwd, with awd as an option. To add awd to the current 9-3 would be very clever. I have talked to a lot of people who are saying things like “yeah, it’s a really nice car, but I want awd…”. 29 year old airline-pilot, living in Norway.
FWD for family cars.
AWD for luxury cars, WRX type cars and car based suvs.
RWD for coupes.
FWD vs RWD?
I’m a severe car enthusiest but also a pragmatist. As a pragmitist, I want a for FWD for the all the obvious reasons. I will always have a FWD car.
But as an enthusiest, I want a lightweight, high power, RWD car for all the obvious reasons. I will always have a RWD car. But please, leave live axles for tractors, trucks, and antiques.
The lack of RWD (or a RWD biased AWD system) is the ONLY thing keeping me from seriously considering SAAB in any of my automotive purchases.
Well Jack, it appears you want me to say RWD. Personally, I own an Acura RL and wouldn’t buy a rear wheel drive car if my life depended on it. Performance? Yea, if I am going to a drag strip. I owned an SHO when they first came out and the torque steer was surely noticable but that was when I wanted to go zero to sixty in …… against the law.
GM should take lessons from its competitors. AWD for luxury and those who demand performance and FWD for all other. The cost and downside in poor climate conditions are just too negative. That is, unless it’s a Vette or Camaro. The purists would say RWD. I would actually argue AWD.
Only a quick one, apparently you favor FWD. It is fairly apparent. Everything depends on what you want to do with it. the Toronado (Olds) was a large V8 FWD and extremely nice. In a day when RWD was about the only option. i have driven mostly FWD for many years, but the RWD van that I drive stinks in the snow and marginal traction. If set up correctly, either system will work. But then I am a performance BIKE nut and cars are pretty much a utilitarian tool for me. I like hammers for example, but I don’t go crazy over the technical aspects of them! I just buy them, use them and let them rust in their box until I need them again.
i don’t think I have EVER washed my GMC 1 ton! why? it is a cargo hauler, not a fashion statement!
mark
I agree with the fact that some front-wheel drive cars can be fun to drive, although I’ve only driven two: the Hyundai Tiburon and Mini Cooper S. You know why? There’s not (really) enough power to overwhelm the front wheels. In an SRT-4, ION Redline, Cobalt SS, Eclipse GT, et al, there’s just faaaar too much power.
Even Honda is starting to put too much power in the new Civics.
I’m 22, and the allure of RWD is just too much. I’ve driven the Solstice, and the combination of a good RWD chassis and Ecotec power should have made it perfect…but it’s not. It just feels unsorted. And the new Miata feels too pointy – especially in the wet.
What young enthusiasts have been craving is a Scion tC, Tiburon, or E30 BMW-sized car that has RWD and is fun to drive.
Not a boy-racer car; something that can be driven to work everyday, and with a tire-swap can be ready for lapping at the local track.
That’s the formula GM should be following. Don’t make it like a Solstice, and something like that Nomad concept is probably too small.
Just tell your designers and engineers to do a BMW from 16 years ago, and it should work out fine. Do a 140hp base model and 170hp SS model. Make it lean, clean-looking, and simple to drive. And offer a track-ready wheel-and-tire package that can be installed and uninstalled inexpensively by your dealers.
And please, call it the Le Mans. Or Grand Prix. It’d help you win the WTCC, too…
Just like ///mach3 said, balance is key. And for $*@#! sake, allow the OnStar to be disabled when people get to the track.
So here are my credentials as a GM owner. In my garage right now are the following GM vehicles:
Along with this current list we’ve also owned a 1992 Chevy S-10 pickup (bought new), a 1996 Buick Skylark (bought new), and a 2000 Monte Carlo SS (bought used in 2003).
Of all the cars I’ve owned only the Olds. Alero seemed to fit the front wheel drive platform. And even that, I think, would be a better rear wheel drive car. I loved the Monte Carlo’s exterior design, I really thought it was great but, it was a real dog when it came to the drivetrain. The same could be said for the Buick Skylark. For very small/sub compact cars, front wheel drive feels like a good platform (Cobalt, Malibu, Aveo, G6). For everything else I think rear wheel drive is just a better platform for ride and comfort. In my opinion the Impala, Monte Carlo, Lucerne, and Grand Prix should all be rear wheel drive platforms.
Tony
FWD is the way to go with Saab. The brand is already getting devalued by badge engineering, so tossing-in a Chevy Caprice platform could kill it.
The problem with the perception of FWD in North America is that we never get the truly good FWD cars over here (other than Saab and some Honda’s). GM’s other FWD cars drive like rental cars, which most of them end-up being anyways.
No wonder “young buyers” who read a GM blog prefer RWD, they’ve only driven the very worst that FWD can offer. An afternoon in a Peugeot on a twisty road would have them singing a different tune.
GM should try to finally get FWD done right. If that means letting the Saab engineers call the shots, more power to them.
While my preference is for RWD and/or AWD, I would make one request: if you go with RWD, please provide a limited-slip differential as an option (or standard!!). The performance-oriented crowd prefers this, but LSD makes the cars more palatable to those of us that live in snowy areas.
How many FWD vehicles do BMW & MB make?
If Saab wants the 9-3 to seriously compete against the 3 & C they’ve got to start with the basics. RWD is part of the basics.
I sold my FWD 900 Turbo and am on my second 3er as Saab has had little to compete with BMW. Saab isn’t competing in the manner that they should be. RWD with optional AWD is the way BMW & MB are doing it. Follow the leaders.
After test driving the Ion Redline (the Cobalt SS was not out yet) and a Dodge Neon SRT-4, I bought a Mustang GT. That should answer your question. GM lost my business. Your loss, not mine.
I’d fully agree that front-wheel drive cars can be rewarding when properly set up, and that there are attendant advantages of front-wheel drive. Like all solutions, there are advantages and disadvantages; the rear-wheel drive platform is regaining popularity as the younger audience appreciates that marques like BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Ferrari et.al., never went to a front-wheel drive platform, and didn’t compromise in key areas of performance. Domestic front-wheel drive offerings–not just GM’s– generally suffer from terminal understeer, making the key “fun to drive” feature one that’s only available if you’re willing (and able) to properly modify the car.
Notably, though Saab had a long, storied tradition of fast, reliable rally cars, there hasn’t been a world champion Saab in well over 30 years; the inherent advantage of all-wheel drive has been exploited to a high level of competence in that arena by other manufacturers. Saab has been notable by its absence. Truthfully, it’s hard to figure what the Saab brand strategy is. The traditional Saab buyer–who had one of the only front-wheel drive cars around in the 60’s -is now faced with a 9-2 that’s really a Subaru, and a 9-7 that’s really a Tahoe. Neither has enough time in the lineup to have established residual values that will inspire. That leaves a 9-3 and a 9-5 that are hard to distinguish from each other, much less provide a benchmark that the 3/5-series, C/E-class, or A4/A6 buyer would be willing to look at.
I think we also need to distinguish whether you are referring to RWD vs FWD in general, or for Saab. In general, I would say that development of a RWD/AWD platform should take priority, though even if you start now you’ll still be years behind the competition. From a Saab perspective, the likelihood of generating enough sales from Trollhattan to operate profitably is slim indeed–shop it to a European buyer.
That’s only one opinion, but it’s an honest one. These are times when sugar-coating it just won’t help.
I said my bit on drivetrains and I’ve mostly given up hope of ever seeing a dynamically attractive vehicle from GM, but good god do yourselves a favor and improve your interiors. They are the cheapest looking, least intriguing and most embarassingly dated interiors in the business. There is no word short of “terrible” that can be used to accurately describe the interior ambiance of virtually all GM products.
I will keep the comment very short and to the point: RWD > FWD, for performance applications.
I cannot speak for anyone else, but my wife and I would never buy a FWD car if we were looking for performance. Last time we were looking for performance, we got a Trans Am. And still have it.
I want maximum interior space. No hump cramping my legs.
You know what they say, “once you go front, you never go back.”
I really cannot add much more than what has been written. It just amazes me how people would prefer FWD. Maybe it is a generation thing. I grew up with RWD and therefore enjoy driving RWD. FWD came about during the 70’s energy crisis. They are cheaper to make and lighter. With computer control and such there really is not much difference any more. The only argument for RWD now is towing. I do not believe you can make FWD work for heavy towing.
Without a doubt RWD and AWD. Torque steer has always been a limiting factor with FWD Saabs.
RWD is the only way to go period. I’m 39 and I live in Maine (lots of snow). I have never owned a FWD car and I will never buy a FWD car. I have driven rental cars that are FWD and I do not like them. It is easier to drive in the snow when you can steer the car with the throttle versus a car that plows with too much understeer.
Dear Sirs:
My family has been selling Chevrolet’s since 1931. I’m 32 and my first several cars were B and G bodies. I loved those cars, but when I got my first H body at the age of 21 that was the end of wanting RWD for my every day car.
The Impala is our best selling car and if we could have just 1 GM vehicle to sell it would be the FWD Impala, period. The first question out of most customers mouths is “this is FWD right?” We say yes and they say good, because I’m NEVER going to have another RWD again. Even with traction control RWD isn’t as good in the snow as a regular FWD. When you start adding traction control and AWD you are increasing 1. the manufacturing cost and 2. the long term maintaince cost.
The net result of a RWD Impala would be FEWER retail sales. Add AWD to it and the car becomes too expensive as would many of the smaller cars. There is a place for RWD and AWD, but the core has to be FWD due to cost and interior room. Bold design is why the 300 does so well, I would bet they would sell just as many if they had made it FWD.
Keep your core cars (esp. the Impala) FWD and build the Camaro and Chevrolet SS concepts RWD and you’ll most likely have a net increase of 200,000-250,000 units.
Mike Murphy
It seems some people think RWD is inherently bad in the winter. I think the issue is that most younger drivers learned to drive on FWD cars. I did not, and a RWD car with proper snow tires can be effective in winter. Yes AWD is better in snow, but for me I will always prefer RWD and my next car will be RWD. I hope GM will have a car for me, i.e. under 30k and fun to drive. If not I’ll look elsewere.
The new CAMARO – just build it – RWD -
Now for us PONTIAC FIREBIRD / TRANS-AM fans – change the front and rear ends,paint them red and make them all T-TOPS !!!!!!!
The space efficiency argument for FWD pretty much went out the window once Detroit finally discovered IRS.
Though it is amazing how space efficent the Cobalt’s and 9-3’s FWD architectures are.
I don’t even know why this is an issue. FWD works fine for people movers, but not for performance. Look at all of GM’s ‘halo’ cars – C6, Solstice, GTO…all RWD. If GM put a little C6 or Solstice in every performance car it made, now that would be something. This is from a pure marketing perspective, not even considering the performance advantages.
GM definitely needs more RWD cars. I’m 63 and I drive a BMW 3 series. I bought it because it simply drives better than other cars of its size (at least in 2000 when I bought it). Now with several competitors (Infiniti G35, Lexus IS, Cadillac CTS) present I’m not sure I would buy one again. It’s not a status thing, for now I hear that Hyundai will be coming out with a RWD sports sedan. I would strongly consider one; I know the price will be right. My only problem with the CTS is the price. If Buick or Pontiac put out their version of a RWD sports sedan I would strongly consider one of those also. It seems strange that most Pontiac models are positioned to the sports sedan part of the market, and should all be RWD in my opinion. Look at the success of the Chrysler 300.
With modern traction control systems, rear wheel drive is the only way to go. I’m 31 and most of the cars I would consider buying (actually, almost all of the cars I’d consider buying), are rear wheel drive. My wife’s IS300 Sport Cross – incredible car. The 3-Series BMW, the Ford Mustang and Chrysler 300C, and of course the CTS Caddy.
Let’s face it, front wheel drive is cheaper to manufacture, and that’s why GM converted everything over in the 80s- trying to follow the Japanese. It was a gimmick to make more profit, period. While I do believe fwd has it’s place on compact cars and perhaps family sedans like the Malibu, rear wheel drive is the only way to get incredible performance and handling. You don’t see BMW and Mercedes going this way, do you? And they’re the “benchmark” that most companies like Lexus and Infiniti are targeting. Even you guys converted back to rwd with the new Cadillac line-up. Car people know it, and GM knows it – performance and fun to drive factor – go with rear drive. And as far as packaging is concerned, check out the BMW 5 and 7 Series if you don’t think you can have legroom in a rear drive car, those cars are both VERY roomy. Oh, and they handle awesome, drive awesome and look awesome (you don’t need long overhangs in the front, you can tuck the wheels out). So my vote – the new Camaro and the new “performance” sedans from Pontiac and Buick better be rwd like the Mustang and 300C, or you better just not come out with anything at all. If the new Lucerne was a scaled back Cadillac STS for the same price that you charge for it currently, I’d probably see them out on the roads. I know it. My first thoughts when I went to the Buick dealer last month to check one out: “not bad, but I’d rather spend my money on a rear driver from Chrysler”. Seriously, I think tons of 300C owners feel the same way.
I am far less concerned with which wheels do the driving than with how my car handles. I am an enthusiast and I own a RWD sports car, but I would consider a well-sorted FWD car as well (the acura TSX comes immediately to mind). While RWD has gotten most of the attention recently, I think you will see a pendulum effect in a couple of years as buyers in colder climates realize how good they had it with predictable FWD handling.
rear wheel drive for everything or all wheel drive
I can not believe how GM have treated the brand of SAAB. Mistake after mistake has been made and the current models are hopelessly outdated compared to its competitors. If GM shall be able to bring SAAB back up to its old grace the need to continue with FWD and absolutely not use RWD (it shouldn’t even be considered imo). Use FWD on most of the models and AWD on the Aero models. And please! Let there be a Saab Sonett! And one last thing, if you consider putting a V8 in the next 9-5…let it be a biturbo so that the heritage of turbos will be kept
And by the way….I’m a SWEDISH…
I’m in my fifties, live in the mountains of western NC and drive in my job to the tune of about 30K a year. My ancient Dodge Diplomat with the police pkg suspension and Sure-Grip rear will go anywhere in the snow better than ANY front wheel drive. And with better control cause you can steer with the rear wheels [spinning them to change direction- something even AWD can't do]. Here in the mountains going up a hill in a FWD you lose the ability to steer when the front wheels start to slip. I can go in any snow up to the point where it gets deep enough to drag the bottom of the car.
The car is more fun to drive in any weather cause of the balance of RWD. Even oldsters prefer the advantages of RWD. I bought a Mustang primarily cause it was the only small RWD I could find and afford.
It’s a big lie perpetrated on the American public, even by enthusiast magazines, to pretend that FWD can be more fun to drive than the mediocre RWD’s. The more power a FWD car has, the worse it handles at the limit.
American car companies must get back to making something that owners can take pride in owning. Dumping the Camaro a few years ago [and before that the RWD Impala] cost more in image loss than dollars at the time. But it cost GM real dollars over the years in loss of pride of ownership. I think of GM as the “rental” car corporation. Remember the 1957 Eldorado Brougham? You lost money on that one too, even at $13K, but look what it did for Cadillac’s image. You’ll never get back to where you were unless you lose the “appliance” attitude toward cars. Alfred Sloan had it right in the twenties. You are not making toasters, you are making personal statements for real people. Unless you can put pride of ownership back into your products- you’re history. A few more RWD cars would be a start.
Mike
RWD. although fwd is better in cold, it does nothing for the rest of us.
I think FWD has its place… But it wouldnt be in a performance Era.
Sure FWD can be good, but RWD can be better. As we saw at the Ride and Drive at the Hollywood Casino yesterday, the new Tahoes E80 (Eaton Automatic locking rear differential) option allows the 2wd rwd Tahoe better traction then the Toyota Sequoia 4×4. This must say something?
Currently I own 2 Pontiac RWD V8 Firebirds. and I think brands that are supposed to be designed to be exciting, should intigrate RWD into all of their platforms. Personally I’ve heard rumors that Pontiac will be receiving a Pursuit in the USA, a car basically based on the delta platform. A badge engeenered cobalt if you will. In my prefference I think Pontiac ought to have only RWD and AWD vehicles. if the pursuit was truly coming, it would be nice to see if offer something the Cobalt didnt, and in an Exciting package. Saturn already has the delta, Pontiac doesnt need a “me too” entry, unless its truly exciting(and its hard to get a fwd car exciting in my book of rules).
now if this topic is about saab, i am sorry to misdirect my focus. Saab, I have little understanding of its roots. As does probably most Americans. So if born from jets is where it comes. Should we see some aerodynamic leading models coming out? Because lets face it… if you are going to force a car company to go with a moto or directional advertisement, you ought to stick to it. I commend you on your saab line up, I had a customer turn down a TrailBlazer SS for a Saab 9-7X… I thought it would be difficult to turn down the SS package but… Saab could use a nice optional AWD package with a line up of RWD vehicles. People who are going for premium vehicles dont want fwd anyway. What GM needs to design is a rwd chassis that can out perfrom a fwd in bad weather conditions and you’ll take the market by storm.
The clients I deal with at the dealership (Chevrolet) have one major complaint about the Impala… FWD is never something the consumer wants to hear…
I’m not sure what my next vehicle will be, but you can bet it’ll be rwd, hopefully GM will offer something new for me to choose from, or I’ll just have to hog up some used ones… (Impala SS 1994-96) maybe a new Firebird.
But I understand California Votes need to be tallied differently then the East Coast owners… hopefully you could offer a vehicle that was exciting and could still drive in the east coast, but dont neglect the largest market in the USA… Cali
As a 24-year-old male, not to mention former Cobalt & Cavalier owner, I vote FWD. I like the extra peace of mind FWD gives me on snow and ice, and performance isn’t my main concern.
RWD, please… especially if you exploit it’s benefits in the area of steering feel.
There are plenty of low-cost manufacturers from Korea and (soon) China who can build small, cheap, front-drive cars. Since GM is not in a position to compete with these vehicles on COST, GM is going to have to beat them on CONTENT.
Rear Wheel Drive is the “killer app” for GM. When combined with compelling, innovative, sexy designs (including good proportions, ie. long dash-to-axle, big wheels, etc) RWD/AWD has the ability to differentiate GM from the crowd.
Bear in mind that the Audi A4, A6, and A8 (and the VW Phaeton and previous-gen Passat), although offered as fwd in base models (in their home market at least) all use a longitudinal engine and transmission setup, just like a standard rwd car. The balance and handling characteristics are therefore atypical for a fwd car, which normally has a transverse engine and transmission sitting ahead of the drive wheels (also common in small mid-engine rwd cars). Audi’s setup offers better balance, but at the same packaging penalties as a rwd car (awd versions lose cargo space as well). The longitudinal engine does have advantages for future pedestrian-safety rules, since the engine can sit further back in the chassis away from the point of impact without requiring the enormous front overhang seen in the latest fwd Peugeots.
RWD is the way to go, even in smaller cars. It is much more fun, if you were to make a cobalt coupe RWD and keep the low price, it would be awesome, sales would increase for sure, because the people who dont care, will still buy it anyway, and the people who do care, will actually give the car a look, no other affordable compact car these days is RWD its dissapointing, theres nothing fun about peeling out in a FWD car. It sucks. as for weather concerns, the traction control, and technology we have today definatly would eliminate the difference between rwd and fwd weather performance. all in all, MAKE RWD CARS GM!! save yourself! ps. I own a civic, and a rwd compact car, from GM would actually make me consider the General.
Isn’t it obvious GM is trying to say, “Look, FWD is ok TOO!”
Why is everyone even responding if GM doesn’t care? Everyone says RWD, we want RWD. GM says no. Lutz says, essentially, that while we’re waiting for the new camaro, that we should be ‘happy with what we have’ (in one of his recent blog posts). In other words – you’ll get nothing you want, and like it!
RWD with traction and stability control almost entirely negates the value of FWD in the snow. It doesn’t negate the packaging advantages – but if you’re going for performance, style, sex appeal, you know, the stuff that causes people to CARE about cars as more than transportation (hint:gives them brand loyalty, something GM needs) then you need RWD cars.
Saab… I don’t see the draw in Saab at all. I’m only 20 – maybe when I get older (re: closer to death) I’ll see the point in buying a FWD saab. I think Saab could really be made a trick brand though. Kill just about all of the current styling, get some ACTUAL jet/look fast things going on, and don’t put it on Soccer Mom’s FWD ‘I’m afraid of the snow and I cry in my sleep’ platform, have remote start as an option, push button start standard, an optional keypad that you need to punch in a code to turn on the car – you know, TRICK stuff, along with bitchin turbocharged engines that you design from the factory to need only a few tweaks to get much more power out of – but by doing so you void the warranty. For instance, give an engine option with a turbo with an external wastegate, and make boost adjustable from inside the car (boost controller, stock!). Also, a secondary fuel tank running race gas, and an option to REALLY crank up the boost, would be… psychotic, but I’d buy one.
So I’m 20 – my first car was a 2001 volkswagen passat with the bigger engine, the v6. I got it about 4 ft in the air when I crashed it. It was fun in the corners, because I didn’t have to press it – just ask it nicely, then pull the e-brake handle, then apply the gas, once it was pointing in the right direction. So it was fun.
My current car is a ‘97 BMW 540i. I’ll never drive a FWD car again by choice, unless its to rail on some beater that some friend has acquired and wishes to blow up. I became so fascinated by the driving experience, that I bought a 240sx (which I barely fit in, being a 6′4″ American).
Never, ever again will I drive a FWD vehicle by choice.
I can get my BMW to slide so nice. So nice. And the traction control will go away – unlike my older brother’s new Charger, which I would never buy because you can’t make the electronic nannies stay where they should be – back in a computer, on a desk, not cutting out your throttle when you get sideways.
I’m a firm believer that if you screw up, you crash, its your fault, you pay. I like safety – but not when it intrudes on my ability to hurt myself. It should be my common sense that does that.
Saab should rock. As it stands – its so uninspiring. And the fiasco with the subaru WRX with a new look and calling it the 9-2? GM is so devoid of excitement, they need to hire it out to the japanese. Good job, GM. Way to be on life support and loving it.
Oh well. I like wasting these words, because as an American, I like to bi**h and hope that my voice is heard. I know its futile – but so did Odin. ‘Nuff said.
rear wheel drive, baby!!!!!!
I really enjoy driving my ‘03 9′3 Saab which is a Turbo FWD car. But what I am puzzled is that why when car magazines compare this car with other RWD cars in the same class like BMW, Infiniti, and M&B, Saab gets a relatively low ranking. Since the results are pretty consistent across several such tests, it is making me feel that perhaps I am missing something.
So, in deciding on a car architecture, you should also consider perception in the marketplace (particularly, in the high-end market). Being a large car company, I believe you should offer both platforms to remain competitive. In other words, don’t try to always make decisions based on engineering factors (like the way you ruled out hybrid’s in the beginning – - which I actually agree with your original position).
I understand that FWD is cheaper, more efficient, and better for winter driving. Nonetheless, I’d still prefer to have a RWD vehicle for performance reasons. It’s tough to get a good launch with FWD. I drive a ‘98 Grand Prix; even with only 200 hp it will smoke the tires if I mash the throttle to the floor. I’m not real concerned about winter driving. I live in St. Louis, MO. Even these middle latitudes it doesn’t snow often enough to warrant FWD or AWD. I’m shopping for a sporty midsize coupe (like a G6) and I’m 23 years old. Although I have a preference for RWD, I may buy another FWD vehicle because they are less expensive and I don’t want to spend more than $25k.
Well, I’m not really a young buyer, 40, and not really a consumer of sub-compact and compact cars. I now tend to prefer the mid-size and larger sedans with RWD. But I have owned compact cars in the past. When I buy a compact, I am usually doing so for the greater mpg. FWD tends to make more sense for sub-compact and compact cars.
But those consumers in their 20’s now purchasing the Tc’s of the world, may like an affordable under $25 grand RWD compact.
It’s a tough call. Could they be offered with options for both RWD and RWD?
I’m 24, californian, single, loves cars and corners. Own a 95 Miata (lightweight, rwd) and a 90 Eagle Talon TSi AWD (awd, a blast to drive)
With Saab, I think the FWD/AWD line-up fits what Saab is. But I also would never buy a Saab, the only Saab drawing my attention is the 9-2(?) which is a WRX in Saab clothing.
For the enthusiast a RWD/AWD platform is best. RWD gives more control options and AWD, minus the weight dissadvantage, gives the most traction and ease of driving. I only plan to buy RWD/AWD vehicles.
What I look for in a car. Lightweight, handling, straightline speed, good drivetrain, and something that would be easy to work on. My Talon is a PIA to work on, mainly because of its FWD/AWD platform. But my Miata is as simple as ever to do anything to. Pulling out the Miatas engine/transmission was about as hard as pulling out just the transmission on my Talon.
But I got off point. If Saab had a light, rwd/awd, platform with a focus on how the car was build to help handling, and was just fun to drive I’d be interested in it. I like the new Camaro, but I fear it will be a heavy ass pig with a big v8 to compensate.
Same thing with the Solstice, it is an awesome looking car with everything right, but it is just way too heavy! The miata, current ‘top’ of the fun/cheap convertable market (i think) is a good 400 pounds lighter with a similar output. That’s like dragging a fat man threw the curves.
I do also like the Cobalt SS, but the Neon SRT-4 is everything the Cobalt is not… except, it is still a Neon.
Thanks for hearing my input, even though it was not well put together.
-John
I would love to see you guys start to make some compact rear wheel drive cars again. I’m 44, and started driving in the ’70’s before front drive became all the rage.
While FWD has it’s place among small cars……what I can’t stand about FWD is the goofy proportions it gives to bigger cars.
The front wheels can be so close to the front of the door, so much so that the wheelwell intrudes into the drivers footwell. At 6′ 3″, this is no fun. And that long front overhang is simply ridiculous!
I know that some of the engineering concerns are interior space. but if you’re going after the youth (and the wannabe youth) market, understand that these are folks that probably have no family to worry about carting around, but want a nice comfortable 2+2 for themselves and their buddies.
So who really cares if it’s got an interior hump??
AWD shouldn’t be considered for a car of this type due to 1) Weight, 2) Cost.
It’s interesting that folks did just fine in the snow here in the states before FWD became so pervasive. I fault the woefully inadequate Driver Education in this country for folks not having the right training for snow/ice.
Also, it’s interesting to note that BMW, and Mercedes never latched on to the FWD mantra………..both which are produced in Germany where it snows a LOT!
I’d like to see you guys do something along the lines of the Torana concept a couple years ago and perhaps give that to Pontiac. Something on a stretched Kappa frame would be sweet!
The powertrain of such a car would be a nice turbo’d (or supercharged) 4 cyl, or ideally an inline 6.
Yeah I know……….V6’s are more popular these days, but frankly I can’t stand the sound of a V6 at full throttle…………..it just doesn’t sound as smooth as an inline 6 but of course this is subjective.
Pricing should start at just under 20 grand for the 4cyl…….nicely optioned, for around 26K.
I know you guys CAN pull this off……the real question is, WILL you?
There is only one market I can think of now that no one offers a single car in. Compact RWD 2+2 coupe. They were everywhere in the 80s and early 90s, then they quit selling. The demand is back we are sick of settling for FWD stuff. FWD can be done and done exciting, but the Cobalt SS is the only time GM has ever done it. You claim to have years of FWD expertise, but to enthusiasts you just started.
I am 24 and my requirements for purchasing a car/truck are: RWD, V6 or V8, and Manual Transmission. I currently drive a 2004 Dodge Dakota 3.7L.
Unfortunately GM can only offer this in a few selections: Vette, Solstice, GTO, CTS, and some of their trucks. Also they seem to tie the manuals with the weaker engines.
Maybe GM is struggling because they are trying to be something they are not (Small cars with FWD).
My vote:
Compact and Midsize – FWD
Performance Cars – RWD/AWD
Luxury Cars – FWD or RWD/AWD
Thanks for asking.
BTW, Increase the standard warranty to at least 6/60,000 on everything. If GM reliability and durability are as high as claimed, it should not break the bank and will impress a lot of buyers. How come the Koreans can do it?
“Audi, Saab, Volvo are still trying to catch up. AWD does not equal RWD.”
That’s why Audi dominated rally racing in the 80s and forced a wholesale switch to AWD from all the major competing brands?
Ignorant!
If you are talking Saab, I would suggest taking the Audi route: AWD with FWD bias. Basically, I say that because Saab is traditionally FWD.
However, I have only driven one FWD car in my life that I enjoyed, and that is the Mini Cooper. If you can create a car as fun as the Mini, FWD is fine.
Otherwise, RWD or AWD is the way to go. As far as snow goes, a RWD car with proper winter tires will do better in the snow than your average FWD car with all season tires. It is all about the tires.
I agree that for packaging reasons, FWD has advantages. But I would much prefer you reach back into the past to your Corvair and produce a RWD/rear-engined car. That is the best of all worlds: fun to drive, great packaging, and unstoppable in the snow. And with today’s engineering, the oversteer can be controlled.
And, yes, I own a Corvair, along with a couple of Porsches which also have the engine where they are supposed to go: behind me.
All anybody needs (except for racing or heavy snow climates) is FWD with stability control. I like watching RWD cars struggle in the snow as I drive by in my Saab. My 9-3 SportCombi rides and handles great, has room for people and stuff, doesn’t carry the extra weight and inefficiency of the larger driveline components that RWD tends to carry. And I don’t need the wastefulness of AWD components either. 4WD or AWD just gets you into trouble faster. Stability control and ABS keep you out of trouble. By the way, I’m 34 year old and will only buy FWD vehicles (unless I buy a fun convertible or sports car).
If you want to compete with other European imports and grow your market segment you need to have RWD. Think BMW, Mercedes. These buyers are enthusiasts! Otherwise you will always sell only to the SAAB faithful and a few wonderers that will keep total SAAB sales below the 40k units per year.
While Saab has a history of FWD, you have changed the direction of the marque. If you intend to do things that the true believers call blasphemy, such as abandoning the hatchback, then you might as well abandon FWD. It seems you’d like Saab to compete with BMW. Saabs just can’t do that with FWD.
On the other hand, I think there is a viable niche for an upmarket, quirky vehicle that has pinnache, style, and performance. If you do go with FWD, don’t be afraid to make Saab into something strange, as it’s always been.
But for me, I will never buy another car that doesn’t have a true manual transmission and RWD. There is a place for FWD, like gas-sippers, minivans, and family appliances, but I won’t buy those. Give me a small, RWD hatch and I’d be in heaven. Or a RWD sport coupe (small). Or a RWD sedan. I don’t care.
I will say that if the 9-3 were RWD, I’d consider one. Nice looking car, but a little too expensive for something that’s a Malibu.
FWD is fine for compact/sub-compact cars. Smaller cars benefit from the add’l space that FWD packages allows. Anything above compact size though should be offered in RWD if there is an engine offered that has more than 225lb/ft of torque. General Motors DESPERATELY needs an affordable performance oriented mid-sized sedan to replace the FWD Impala/Grand Prix.
CADILLAC: RWD ONLY! Oh, and can the alphabet soup please. Bring back the Eldorado, Seville and Deville monikers.
CHEVROLET:
FWD is fine for Aveo, Cobalt, and Malibu
RWD is REQUIRED for Impala, Monte Carlo, Camaro, Corvette, Nomad (hint) and El Camino (hint).
PONTIAC:
Why duplicate the Chevy line-up? Rebadge Opels for American consumption instead.
OPEL: FWD of course!
BUICK:
Needs major upgrading, overhaul and RWD to compete with BMW!!! Ergo, introduce a compact “Apollo”, and a midsize “Athena” as well as a fullsize “Roadmaster”. Buick-Pontiac-GMC should be a separate division of GM. And HUMMER should supply their SUVs.
SATURN:
Entry level and “green” machines showcasing GM’s new technologies.
SAAB:
Must remain FWD with AWD option. Significant power boosting options required with turbo V6’s and V8’s.
HOLDEN: Opel and Buick copies for South Pacific markets.
DAEWOO: More Opel rebadges for Asian market.
Here is Top Gear’s viewpoint on the question:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7779894845558014372
A company as big as GM should be offering both and using the difference to distinguish one brand from another. Nissan has figuered out how to build one platform that is sold as FWD (Altima) and RWD (G35). Why not use the difference to give your different brands some real identity.
I own an ‘03 Saab 9-3 that is of course fwd. I also own an ‘06 BMW 325i which is rwd.
I like both in their own way, but there is absolutely no comparison in terms of steering feel and precision, as well as driving satisfaction, between the two. Guess which one is better?
fwd is nice for an appliance car. The reason GM likes them is they’re cheaper. The mistake is thinking that “we’re cheaper” sells more cars than “we’re better”.
Time for an attitude change at GM
Its time to take advantage of your relationship with Suzuki. You blew it with Subaru. Suzuki has the least expensive AWD cars around. They only charge $1,000 more for AWD. GM needs to utilize Suzuki’s experience with AWD. Also, it couldn’t hurt to utilize Suzuki’s 150HP 4 Cylinder engine that powers the Aerio.
How about matching Suzuki’s warranty also while we’re at it!?
Aveo-FWD
Cobalt/HHR/Vibe/Ion-FWD
Malibu/G6/Aura-FWD
Impala/Monte Carlo/LaCrosse-RWD with AWD Option.
DTS/Lucerne-FWD with AWD option.
Caddy BRX-FWD with AWD Option.
All other Caddys-RWD with AWD Option.
Camaro/Firebird-obviously RWD.
Chevelle/Tempest-RWD with AWD Option.
Equinox/Torrent/Outlook-FWD with AWD option.
Only use SS moniker with RWD or AWD Vehicles.
GM Wants to Know: Front or Rear Wheel Drive?
But asking the front tires to brake, steer and convey power to the road is simply too much to ask. That is why understeer is such an inherent characteristic of high performance driving in a front-wheel-drive vehicle.
Gimme Gimme:
A VEE-EIGHT.
PUSHRODS.
REAR. WHEEL. DRIVE.
*Grunt*
Arr Arr Arr!!
OMG FWD SUX
(I drive a FWD F.O.R.D Taurus. understeers like a son of a B****, no fun to drive. at all. bleah.)
Jack, et al.,
Thanks for asking for input from GM enthusiasts.
The Scion coupe and the Civic are front wheel drive. Look at the competiton sales. GM adversaries like those at at Motor Trend gave the Civic car of the year. Maybe GM should give the media a hypocrite of the year award.
GM should not have allowed the Scion coupe to go unanswered for this long. If ugly cars like the Civic can sell, and functional cars like the Scion can sell to those who are not car guys, there must be something you are missing. GM already builds the best products, yes, that is true, and it has been true for a long time. So what is the answer. Panic is not the answer.
Here is an answer, from a GM enthusiast:
Innovative styling can create the quality perception. Styling is the whole component, not just the look of the car, but the image it projects in the market place. The proof of this is that many ugly cars like the front wheel drive Honda Civic actually sell and the buyers don’t even shop around.
The younger male buyers you are trying to reach want image and male sex appeal, pure and simple. The Scion, though functional, is marketed like blue jeans to upper middle class young males who couldn’t tell you the first thing about why the car is a good car except that it was on some list in the magazine which they find out later anyway.
Start thinking fashion, lifestyle, sex appeal, surf boards, skate boards, ipods, cell phones, and computer games, if you want to sell cars and make money in the immediate future. With all the success of the Matrix and Cadillac you would think GM would have caught on to the success of Cadillac. Make a movie like too Fast to Furious, only make it pro-GM.
Whether you do it with RWD, FWD, AWD, just do it. I agree the comment posted that GM sells V-8’s well. Why not make the small V-8 again, test it with the y-gen.
If I’m hearing you right, the Saab styling and look, is probably right for this crowd, but GM needs to implement a marketing image strategy to reach these customers with a competitive model and price. Develop parterships with the fashion and lifestyle, and movie promoters, and develop more of an entertainment focus for GM to hit back. GM’s newest ads are much better. The younger buyers like high mpg, quality, available performance, and they also like image.
Stars like Colin Farrel, Keanu Reeves, and Angelina Jolie, even Eminem, will go much farther as promoters of GM with the y-gen/ millenials,the younger buyers than someone in a business suit. GM has done a good job of hitting the NBA NFL sports crowd and the tough guy muscle car crowd, this isn’t where GM is having the problem. The problem is the upper middle class younger buyer who is not much of a car person. GM is not reaching them at all. Their driveways are in desperate need of a GM product. Their college kids are missing the wonderful world of General Motors and they don’t even know it. My college students, my high school students, fashion industry buying experience, and more tell me GM needs to be more street saavy an more lifestyle and entertainment focused. GM owners are your best ambassadors, we’ve been fighting in the trenches for you in the ground war, but GM needs to start the air campaign and the strategic war to win.
Levi almost went out of the market place because of trendy fashion images from the competition. Levi was the IBM of fashion. Popular in the past, but then came the tattered and torn blue jeans out of no where and took their base away.
GM should not have furlowed the Camaro for this long. The Camaro has a lot of credibility with the younger buyers. GM has the right perception there. The bottom line is Oldsmobile would be a best seller if GM had developed more street saavy marketing. Bluntly, GM needs to hit the Abercrombie and Hollister crowd with the G6. GM should have register to win boxes inside these stores.
Flying to Detroit is a wonderful experience, but why not have two Detroit shows, one in summertime if you get my drift. The autoshow is spectatular. Make the choreography of the NAIAS in Detroit more entertainment oriented. Have a movie star pop out of your new models on stage make it like an MTV award, make headlines for a change instead taking the brunt of them. Stop letting the media and your foreign competition get the better of the war of words and slogans.
GM has so many great attributes. ONSTAR, for one, why hasn’t GM developed an entertainment marketing strategy for ONSTAR? ONSTAR
is capabable of much more than safety. GMAC insurance is capable of much more. Just look at all the younger buyers who need insurance and can’t get it because of age discrimination in the ratings.
Do things more quickly, GM needs a Saab like entry level model for Cadillac for the younger buyer right now, priced about 25K. Target the Scion and the Civic head on.
Put some new Pontiac and Cadillac dealerships near upper middle class neighborhoods and high schools. Put some G6’s in drivers ed. Be seen as environmentally friendly, and keep saying GM has more models over 30 mpg. Say trouble free more often
to those who want a care free lifestyle.
There is something to be said for the RWD customer. I have a Camaro, so I understand that. But don’t let GM’s adversarial critics mislead you. I also enjoy GM’s front drive cars, so do many GM enthusiasts, and so do your competitors like the Scion coupe.
GM’s front drive sedans are the best in class vehicles. But you don’t get this from the media, it comes from the customers saying it.
GM needs to counter the bias in the media, it has to be done. Channels like the editors of local 6 WKMG news, CBS affiliate in Orlando regularly run pro-Japanese car tid bits on the morning news or even negative news on American makes, so often its almost like they are advertising for the Japanese. Motor Trend and Car and Driver make what sound like smart aleck remarks about GM. The faceless editors of MSN autos have made aweful uncalled for remarks about GM. These kinds of things are anti-American, and GM just takes it on the cheek. Washington politicians go unanswered by GM execs and its supporters when they make baseless remarks. GM enthusiasts know GM the American auto companies are the most upstanding companies world, with the highest ethics and the biggest hearts.
Here are a few words of wisdom for GM execs:
1. Wall Street does their banking in Japan.
2. GM sells makes more money in America when the US has a popular President in office, and when the US savings rate is up, have you noticed? Tell the media that one.
3, What’s good for GM is good for America and vice versa. Still true.
4. GM needs to be more involved in US again, as much or more than GM seems to be overseas.
5. Consider making a computer game called ONSTAR.
6. Your almost home.
7. We appreciate GM.
GM, please don’t mess up the new Camaro and bring it out as a coupe version of your (old) FWD Impala/Grand Prix platform! Do this right – like you did with the Solstice/Sky and the CTS/STS – bring back the Camaro and perhaps a Buick sedan/coupe properly – as rear drive with modern traction control systems and optional AWD. (Think Infiniti G35). Oh yes, and don’t forget a Pontiac GTO version of the new rear drive architecture too. I know your company too well.
Take the following possible scenario going on (hopefully it isn’t, but worst case, this could be it) :
Engineering and Design: lets do the Camaro Concept as is, it’s awesome. It will handle and perform well and be an incredible product that our customers are totally going to dig!
Accounting and various other middle managers: Well, it looks like it may cost more. Lets just use the same platform we use currently for the Impala – hey, people will buy it if we say it’s good.
So, if the above mentioned scenario pans out, you’ll have tons of disappointed rear drive car fans that will go spend their money at Lexus, BMW and perhaps Ford (Mustang) and Chrysler (300C / Magnum). Or, you can rebound your image, produce cars that you *KNOW* would be a lot more rewarding to own and drive and actually save face in the automotive enthusiest world. I’ll be looking to trade in my tired 1998 GMC Jimmy with a nice rear drive coupe in about 2 years or so. I’d like to seriously consider that new Camaro – but only with the same drivetrain and underpinnings as the one displayed in Detroit. Not a warmed over front drive car. No way. You can fool some people into thinking a car may be an actual “performance” car (Grand Prix GXP, Impala SS), but I seriously doubt that BMW wouldn’t have been as successful as they are had it not been for the rear drive layouts of their cars.
I have noticed a lot of Acura references on here. I can’t explain it other than perhaps those cars, in and of themselves, could be put in a vacuum and it wouldn’t matter what kind of drivetrain they had, they’re just built really well. I don’t think GM could pull off the Acura TL like Honda could. Perhaps the Saturn Aura will prove me wrong on that (I hope it does).
FWD has it’s place, but not in a true *performance* vehicle.
I just hope you guys aren’t thinking about converting everything back to FWD ala the 1980s again (like Caddy) – it would seriously be the kiss of death for GM.
Just watched a guy spend a million plus on a Chevelle.
There’s a lot of love out there for GM cars when they are done right. Not going to say people won’t or can’t love a FWD car but my goodness, do what the people want. They want a Camaro and just can’t see them going bonkers over a FWD nameplate job. Everything has it’s place but it’s not everywhere.
BTW, go walk around any GM workplace, count the amount of “new” Camaro posters guys have hung up. We want to do it. So what if we go broke “if” it fails. At least we went down putting up a good fight.
Living in Australia, I was after a lowcost sporty RWD car. The cheapest car that offered what I wanted was a Ford BA XR8. This was way bigger than I really wanted, as well as using more fuel. I would have liked a car similar to the BMW 1 or 3 series but these actually cost more over here (I spent AU$34000 approx US$22000 for the 5 month old XR8 with 350HP engine).
I would like at least 4 seats, dont mind whether 2 or 4 door and would like above 200HP and not weighing more than 1500Kg.
I do see the advantages of FWD and feel there is till a market for these as low cost ,reliable, safe and boring means of transport. They offer better traction in muddy or icy conditions (but only on the flat).
In Australia we need more variety of cars available. GM and Ford offer almost identical cars across the range, but totally miss the small RWD sector , favoured by many people. As a result most young people buy imported second hand Nissan Sylvias and Skylines.
Saabs’ new cars shouldn’t be either FWD or RWD. Other GM divisions do these very well and it’s a waste for Saab to rehash these. Rebuild the Camaro, Swedish Style? — give me a break, PLEASE!
Do something DIFFERENT! Be distinctive! Nail that growing hot hatch market that Audi, Volvo, (soon) Chrysler and others gobbling every sale.
You have the foundation already – the Epsilons’ solid MAXX chassis, to be dropped by Chevy because they don’t have a clue as to how to build or sell a sport hatch (bling bling wheels, ridiculous spoiler and chrome ain’t it!).
Various mags like Car and Driver like the Maxx even in its lead shoes, and Saab could work wonders with it.
Upgrade the interior, smooth out the rear end, add some Swedish styling flair, a full-time AWD drive system, an aluminum block V6 with direct injection and turbo (or go for broke with small block Yahama or other V8!). Sell it for $32K and up and you’ll not only have a car that will blow other sport hatches off the road, but give Saab a true unique stance within GM products.
To prelude this I am a 22 year old male. I live in Columbus, OH and I know what snow is. I drive a supercharged RWD vehicle with no traction control year round.
To answer your question: It depends entirely on the model, target audience, and to a degree the history of the vehicle.
I was going to make this long and winded, but decided against it. So I’ll sum up:
Saab – FWD is a strong part of their heritage & image. AWD should be an option, but only on top models (Viggens).
Pontiac – RWD only. They’re a performance brand and need to start acting like one.
Chevy – Chevy is in the prime position to have FWD, RWD, & AWD models. Small models are FWD; large models are RWD/AWD.
Cadillac – RWD/AWD only on all models. Similar in concept to Audi, except the AWD systems will be RWD bias.
Buick – FWD. If for the only reason we don’t want them infringing on Cadillac.
Saturn – FWD. They are your import brand, let them compete head-to-head then. They can have a few RWD models though, but it’s not their forte.
The rest – your other brands should be self explanatory (Hummer/GMC/etc).
FWD & AWD is a much needed design feature where snow is encountered. I have delivered new cars for 32 years and the comparison is immeasurable. I lived in Texas back in the 70’s and can only say it really does not matter where the snow doesn’t fly. FWD and AWD should be combined with RWD for out west and people that want a fast car. I have driven all over the country and can only say I have seen the fast cars and they are stuck in traffic so it does not really matter.
Forget about RWD.
The other day I was crossing the mountain pass to Lake Tahoe and it had suddenly started to snow and gotten slipperily icy. The Mustang RWD in front of me had absolutely no traction! It made a 360 degree spin and almost flew off the road. With my FWD I swerved nicely around it without any traction problem. My conclusion: RWD is irresponsibly dangerous.
I prefer RWD. I agree with Greg. If no RWD, then definetly AWD, but I would stay away from FWD.
If you want to position the brand against Volvo.. then AWD is what you need to use in order to do so.
Turning Saab all RWD or mostly RWD would anger a lot of the loyalists and keep people in the colder climates from really investing in the brand.
It is to bad that this FWD RWD situation needs to be even a thought or pondered. Both platforms should have always been maintained at some level, while pursueing affordable, reliable AWD. Now we’re behind.
At the same time there is so many misconceptions being pushed as important facts by enthousiasts in the south or flat lands as to the lack of benefits of FWD. Also highly exaggerated myths about inferiority in handling. The difference is nothing that can be felt or of any concern at levels even 20-30 mph above posted speed limits.
Still both need to be made available by GM and the thought of only one or the other never entertained again.
I am a Saab(9-5 aero manual
owner. I love my car and have wanted one since 1998. But I had a Audi A4 quattro and I must admit, even now, I consider purchasing another Audi instead of Saab because of the AWD.
Saab represents the pinnacle of safety. How can Saab not offer AWD. Powerful FWD leads to torque steer. Powerful RWD leads to spinouts. Powerful AWD leads to moving forward.
Move Saab forward offer AWD.
I’m a geezer at 54, but I plan on buying a new Camaro (or dare I say it, Challenger, whichever hits first). Heck, I may buy both. I’m at the point where I may as well spend it!
I vote RWD by a wide margin. This nonsense GM is pushing about FWD can be just as much fun is a crock. No matter how good, a FWDer is, it could have been better with RWD.
I have spent my career as an engineer involved in product design, so we’ll do what I know how to do; lets look at the trade-offs.
Surprisingly, its really not a question of which wheels drive the car, its a question of the design impacts resulting from which wheels drive.
To explain:
In all except very few cases, FWD vehicles place the engine/trans in a transverse arrangement. This causes the bulk of the mass to be placed in front of the drive axle centerline. It can be done differently, but only in very rare cases has it been otherwise. This cantilevering of the engine in front of the wheels causes many negative things:
1. Horrible weight distribution and resultant handling degradation. In fact, the traction advantage of FWD is only present because of this adverse weight distribution. What aids you on the slick, hurts you on dry pavement. Which do you most commonly drive on? Additionally, the torque steer issue of FWD raises its ugly head when talking of handling. This can be eliminated, but rarely is.
2. The front wheels look like they are placed awkwardly rearward. Styling-wise, almost all FWD cars suffer from this. The proportions are ungainly. Some of GM’s FWDers look like the front end is going to break-off.
3. This wheel placement creates minimal front seat leg room. Here is a major point for me. When folks say that FWD enhances interior room, I wonder what they are talking about. A RWD driveshaft tunnel does encroach on middle seat passengers, but in todays autos, who sits in the middle???? Certainly not in today’s front seats which are all bucket. To say that saving a little bit of rear middle passenger legroom on FWD cars vs. the driver and passenger legroom reductions common in FWD is a good trade is nonsense. RWD cars typically have FAR more usable interior space, the key being usable. I’m 6′4″ and drive a BMW 3 series. I don’t even push the seat all the way back.
On the positive side for FWD, it is indeed, cheaper to produce. On that point, I understand GMs seeming love of FWD. Because of this, it certainly does have a legitimate place in downmarket offerings. It would seem though that on more expensive cars, GM could indulge us RWD lovers.
As far as AWD goes, as a veteran of Volvo V70 AWD ownership, I can attest, that I just didn’t get it. It added $5K to the prices, many feet to the 60 mph stopping distance, hundreds of pounds to the car, and reduced gas mileage 2 mpg. It did make the car into a mountain goat, but it also led me to thinking that, although I’ve been involved in several accidents over the years on ice and snow, they’ve always been about not being able to stop; never about not being able to go. AWD doesn’t improve stopping one bit, actually makes it worse. This safety implication is false with AWD. Granted that was a FWD based AWD, but the same issues exist with RWD based AWD. For those that think they need it, and want to live with the drawbacks, for heaven’s sake, offer it. I’ll pass on it though.
And that brings up the last point. I left GM (my first true love) for BMW simply because they made what I want, and GM didn’t any more. If GM gave me what I want to buy, I would, but they don’t. When you look at the offerings in the top end of the market (where the money/profit is) BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Jaguar, are all RWD! Why on earth did GM decide to abandon me and my $50,000 every couple of years? I hope they soon come to their senses. The Camaro shown in Detroit is the first glimmer of hope I’ve seen from GM in years. It is good enough to get me back. Make it, and I will return.
Doug
I’ve just read over all of the comments above. Quick summation:
If you want your cars to be desired, make them RWD. If you want to make a name for yourself, make them RWD. If you want people to talk about them, make them RWD. If you want to have resale value, make them RWD (look at the resale value of M3’s, Corvettes, even Mustangs compared to the Focus, Cavalier, ect). GM is floundering because the only cars I’d ever want all have the Corvette engine and high price tags.
Make FWD cars for people that can’t control their vehicles, like those who posted above. Make FWD cars for people who don’t care about driving, just getting there. Make FWD cars for people who don’t know what FWD means. They want them.
Reliablity, style and performance are not words used to describe GM. I admire how Cadilac has gone (when they have the Corvette engine). The Grand National, the Corvette. Not Pontiac. They have no credit to their name, it’s all been cashed in by too many heavy FWD econoboxes that have cladding and wings. I don’t know where Buick is going. Don’t care. If they made a Grand National, I’d pay attention (have you seen the fake GN concept based off the GTO? Beautiful.). Chevy has one good car, don’t care about the rest. And more. This is from the point of view of the enthusiast. If you want people who drive Aveos to buy more cars, find a Corolla or Civic. Try reliablity, low cost and good interiors. They don’t need anything else.
im 20 and love performance. RWD for me. I typically do not enjoy driving fwd cars.
I really think for cars that are intended to be fun RWD or AWD is the only way to go. They can handle more power better without sacrificing handling.
Oh, did i mention donuts?
rwd for big ones.
fwd for small ones, spend the money you WOULD have spent on the rwd conversion on lexus-imitation styling and body panel fits and interior styling and plastics. those cars are being beaten in the showroom dazzle, not the spec sheet.
Rear wheel drive is fine on the true domestic brands within GM, however Saab’s heritage is front wheel drive and turbocharging. If Saab retains nothing else, it should be those two qualities. If you look back at the Saab 9000, compact on the outside, yet classified as a large car, you see a great benefit of FWD – lots and lots of interior room. But a huge cabin isn’t why most people purchase or lease Saabs, instead it is the way they drive.
Even though some drivers do just fine in their RWD vehicles in the snow, the fact is that the majority of people aren’t on top of their game 100% of the time while they drive. If you lose control of a FWD car that inherently understeers, the result is further understeer, which you are prepared to deal with because it is more of the same. To fix it you simply back off the gas pedal and there you go you are back in control. If you lose control of a RWD vehicle, understeer becomes oversteer, the opposite sensation of what you were just experiencing. You fishtail and probably spin. Yes, some drivers are perfectly capable of toeing the line between under and oversteer, but the reality of it is most would not be able to fix the mess they got themselves into.
The classic 900, the 9000, the ‘99thru’02 9-3, the 9-5, and the 9-3 sport sedan are all incredibly fun to drive YEAR ROUND in virtually ANY CLIMATE.
Stick with FWD in Saabs.
i will never purchase a front drive car. Please bring back the camaro.
The best car in your SAAB line up …the 9-5 wagon needs AWD now !
SAAB should have done this 15 years ago.
For goodness sake even Volvo has had AWD wagons for as long as I can remember.
SO get this done or else sell the company and get out of the way so other folks who are car guys can run the brand.
Sadly, you sir, are a truck and SUV guy and you have not protected the legacy of the marque.
I’m sure Renault can’t do any worse.
Tom Gilmore
Born from sense.
RWD can be better than FWD if you put on the proper tires.
That being said, the key word in this poll is for enthusiasm, not really practicaliity.
I have two compact cars, one is a 1985 Toyota Corolla GTS, and a 2000 Mazda Miata. If somebody made a new sub $20000 performance oriented RWD compact coupe, I would definitely consider buying one, no matter what the brand was.
Look at the prices like the Corolla GTS, and Nissan 240Sxs are going for now since drifting became popular, there is a market!
A Kappa Platform coupe/hatch would be a good start.
I would have to say that while RWD is no doubt a fad of the times for some vehicles, would be a great competitive advantage in the small car arena. Moreover, RWD cars are easier to service and a lot more fun to drive. I think a real niche that no manufacturer has yet exploited is the manufacture of a vehicle that’s easy to service–one where the owner can do virtually all routine maintenance. This would be great fun for many of us auto enthusiasts who love servicing our own cars but don’t like skinned knuckles. Build a nice, affordable car that’s fun to drive, and market it as one that’s easily modified by a do-it-yourselfer.
I think that for the most part, the compact/subcompact car market should be FWD. Definitely space considerations on small cars make FWD more practical. Economy also comes into play for the compact category more than other sizes in my mind, which tends to mean FWD. Plus, no matter what the facts of the matter are, FWD has a perception of better handling in weather. Younger drivers are also less likely to have ever driven a RWD car in the first place (I’m 24 and the only RWD car I’ve driven is a rental, and I was too concerned about it having an automatic to realize it was RWD)
That said, if you can make a sporty little kappa 4-seater or two, I suggest you go for it (and I wouldn’t bother pretending it can seat 5). Keep it affordable and offer it as a Pontiac or possibly Chevy. Keep Saab FWD with the occasional AWD, Buick and Caddillac aren’t really for compact cars, and I’m not really sure what you guys are doing with Saturn anymore (but when I did have an idea, it definitely didn’t involve RWD).
First off… Am I asking for a lot? You bet.
But honestly the competition is far enough ahead that a half-hearted attempt as you already know isn’t going to cut the gravy. So please take the following as information to help, not criticize. I’m tired of watching GM wallow too, and if I avoid pointing out flaws I’m not doing GM any favors.
As many people have pointed out AWD would be a welcome package, IF it’s backed by enough horsepower to make it worthwhile, otherwise go with rear-wheel drive. By the sound of your message though, it sounds like you’re already leaning toward FWD and are just looking for agreement.
Since you didn’t mention any price points I’ll assume since we’re talking about Saab that you want to take it at least a little upmarket from say a decked out Supercharged Cobalt SS at $23,000.
If you’re serious about making a great car then make it better than the Mitsubishi Evo (RS starts at $29,000) or Subaru WRX ($24,995 or STI $32,995) especially if the price is comparable, otherwise why bother?
Make the car fun. Make the steering precise and not dead and heavy like most GM cars feel.
Make the shifter precise, smooth and quick, and lose the standard GM shifter that feels “catchy”… like stirring rocks in a bucket. Most GM cars have good brakes but they tend to grab… make them progressive and firm.
Also put some thought into ergonomics and tactile feedback. I’ve used this example before but it fits here again…
The Mitsubishi Evo steering wheel is a Momo, the seats are Recaro, the shifter is precise, etc. and all this adds up to submerging the driver in the experience. The optional Recaro seats in the Cobalt SS are a good start…
Make the gauges clear and easy-to-read white numerals on black faces with a sharp elegant orange needle so you can see at a quick glance what the car and engine are doing. And make sure to have accurate tach., oil, temp., volt, turbo/vacuum (if needed) and fuel gauges. Accuracy has been an issue for GM with fuel gauges in the past, I know, both of my Camaro’s have/were off by more than half a tank. Both read optimistically higher than what was actually available. I didn’t enjoy being stranded…
I previously had a 1967 RS/SS Camaro and soon after a 1968 4 speed Firebird 400 ram air IV and I loved them. But being muscle cars they didn’t handle or brake well at all, and I didn’t expect them to at the time.
The 1993 Camaro Z-28 that I now drive has definitely improved over the older cars in the braking department but the handling still isn’t as good as the 1986 CRX Si I used to own and absolutely loved. That car was 7 years older and still was a better car than the Z-28. What I’m saying is that if you’re trying to design a sport compact car make it handle, that’s what we’re used to and expect. How about .90 g’s or better lateral acceleration and just as well through the slalom. That isn’t Z06 territory or even close to it so there’s no competition there. And make performance parts available for those of us that want better performance like Dodge.
In short…
Make the brakes excellent, how about stopping from 60 in 120 feet or less.
Make it accelerate. A 6 second 0-60 time isn’t good enough anymore. The SRT-4 gets to 60 in 5.5 sec. The Eagle Talon Tsi ran 6.3 back in 1991. Both of these cars prices are/were also very reasonable.
Great cars are visually exciting, tactilely pleasing, ergonomically comfortable, intuitive, and sound great but aren’t annoyingly loud on long trips.
If you make it rear-wheel drive, make it great! The 240Z no longer exists here but the 350Z does and is (starts at $27,650) probably close to your target price. There really isn’t much competition from Toyota, Nissan, Honda, or Ford YET but there will be, and it sounds like things are stirring at Kia/Hyundai. If they keep going like they have it sounds like they’re going to nail this niche in the next few years whether you guys do or not with a rear-wheel drive version.
While I realize I’m cherry picking please take these ideas into mind.
If you want examples for great dash and gauge layout take a look at the WRX STI’s and improve upon that.
Make it shift as well as or better than an Evo or almost any Honda.
Make it brake better than an Evo.
Make it as fun to drive as an Evo or if you have to go front wheel drive to keep the price down, make it handle and perform better than the new Civic Si and keep the price below the Civic Si.
Make it more fun than a Mini.
Make the engine smooth and willing to rev. to at least 6,500-7,000 rpm’s.
And one of the most critical points is to make it lightweight. 2,900 pounds would be awesome, but definitely not over 3,200 pounds. And subtract 100 pounds from that if it’s not AWD.
I hope this helps, as I’d love to see GM come out with an exciting, fun-to-drive, gorgeous sport compact car that surprises everyone by what you offer for the money.
Warmly,
Thunder
Let’s get real. The only reason domestic mfg’s made the switch to FWD is money. RWD requires extra chassis stiffening and components (not to mention assembly labor). FWD requires only a reinforced box and a driveline that will fit into said box. Take a drivetrain and shove it in a hole.
The best configuration is, of course, mid engine/RWD. Unfortunately, that driveline configuration is rather impractical. Front engine/RWD is the best trade-off and I will only give up my E320 sedan and return to domestics when RWD again becomes a design starting point, not a niche marketing effort.
I prefer RWD for the handling advantages. I cannot stand driving a FWD car and feeling torque steer. Also, a FWD car loses steering control in bad weather. I feel safer being able to steer with the throttle, if necessary, in snow or ice.
GM should return to her strength, RWD, on most cars. Bottom line, they are nicer to drive. 25 years of trying to make a FWD car feel as good as a RWD car have failed… time to move on.
I predict you’ll never see a Citation, Cavalier, Celebrity, Lumina, or any other FWD car at a classic car show… because flat out… they are not loved nearly as much as their RWD counterparts.
I don’t think GM should just say all RWD or FWD, but I do think that an AWD option on most of their line up would be most benificial.
SAABs could stay FWD, with AWD option. I think the Impala, Monte Carlo, and Grand Prix should all be RWD with AWD options. Also, a small car like the Cobalt SS with rear wheel drive would be fun.
As someone said, if it’s just going to be something to tool around with, FWD is the best bet, but if it’s going to be for fun, then RWD or at least an AWD option should be available.
Oh, and PLEASE GIVE US THE HOLDEN COMMADORE!!! I APPRECIATE GIVING US THE MONARO/GTO, BUT I WOULD REALLY LIKE TO HAVE A COMMADORE, PLEASE!
Mr. Keebler,
FWD vs. RWD is a tactical question. I’m more interested in taking a step back and looking at the big picture: Product strategy. In other words, having GM taking sharper aim at specific market niches and executing. Part of the execution involves FWD vs. RWD, of course.
I’ve lived in the Northeast all my life (including 10 of my driving-age years in Buffalo) and I believe it’s an under-rated point among driving enthusiasts.
It seems like every other car in Buffalo is a Subaru AWD. Conversely when I visit Florida, there’s hardly a Subaru to be seen. Whether purposely done or not, Subaru is being more successful in certain geographic markets than others – people in snow love their Subarus, people in sunny AZ couldn’t care less.
The implication is that playing the geographic niche card should be a viable business/car development goal for GM. Instead of trying to be all things to all people (and end up being nothing to no one), Saturn/Buick should have certain products tailored to Sunny areas and others to Snowy areas. e.g. a small or medium RWD Saturn coupe with giant windows/ moon roof and sophisticated interior materials. Won’t sell a lick in the North, but execute well and you’ll sell scads in FL, AZ, CA, etc. Buick doesn’t have much of an identity right now, so why not aim it at the midwest and northeast? you’ve already started with that practical but silly “heated windshield fluid” campaign for the Lucerne and your buick SUV’s and x-overs… Why not solidify that with a line-up of exclusively FWD, AWD, and SUVs. Staid, but solid with durable weather-toughened materials inside and out. Buick – kinda nice, but really tough. Or more concisely: Buick – Pretty. Tough.
Leave the RWD to Pontiac, Saturn, Caddy.
Sorry to be vague and rambling. You guys are the car experts, not me. =)
Having owned both front and rear wheel drive compact and/or sub-compact cars (remember the Chevette?), I can say that I prefer RWD over FWD any day of the week. Not only do FWD have the horrible understeer, but when they have enough torque and power to actually be driveable they develop front end side slide in winter weather. With a rear wheel drive, I can control the “skid” with throttle and counter-steer. With front wheel drive, the only correction is kill the power. My Chevette with it’s underperforming 1.6l would out-drive any Cavalier/Sunbird/Sunfire/Cobalt ever built.
But then again, I’m not the demographic you’re looking for. I’m middle aged, bought only GM for 25 years, before buying a Civic Hybrid in ‘04.
Though it exhibits all of the undesirable features of FWD, it has excellent fuel economy, better than EPA on the highway, and the fit, finish, quiet, and comfort are far superior to any GM I’ve ever owned. Too bad GM was too lazy or cheap to capitalize on their ownership of ElectoMotive Division and market hybrids years ago, I might never have bought the superior quality of the Honda. I can say that I will be first in line if Honda ever builds a rear wheel drive compact, hybrid or not. And I no longer even look on the GM lots.
Ther will never be a FWD car that can hold a candle to RWD. FWD is inferior and by its very nature obsolete wiht todays snow tires and traction-control-systems.
I understand why cars like the Malibu and Aveo are FWD but if it were up to me the Cobalt, Monte Carlo and Impala, G6, Bonneville, DTS, Lucerne and perhaps even the Grand Prix would all be RWD with AWD avaible for one or wo of them so that those in severe clmates can still enjoy the fun of drivig a decent car instead of some FWD blandwagon.
I’m 26 years old and I’ve owned a lot of GM cars…. all of them used to varying degrees. I want to buy a new car from GM since I’m a GM fanm of the highest order but I will never buy a FWD car of any type of vehicle for that matter…
I dedsperately want GM to turn things around and start thriving in the marketplace. If the ‘06 Impala was RWD I might buy one… or if the G6 was RWD the Girlfriend might have considered it but asz it stands I remain a GM fan who can not find a decent GM car to buy wit RWD. A Camaro and 4-door sedan wiht RWD from GM would mean that I’d be buying TWO new cars in the next two years. As it stands the only cars that make me want to take on a new car payment are the Chrysler 300C & Dodge Charger R/T… I also like Fords BOF cars but the Crown Vic & Grand MArq. look ancinent. Those cars are about 6 years overdue for a facelift. I hope when they do get overhauled they remain RWD… perhaps I’ll buy one of those and put my Ford hate aside if GM still does surveys about RWD and keeps cranking out FWD cars for everyone who can’t afford a VEtte or Cadillac.