Informal Survey Time
Saab 9-3 Sport Combi
By Jack Keebler
GM Director–Advanced Concepts Group
One of the things that GM would like to better understand is the level of enthusiasm for rear-wheel drive versus front-wheel drive, particularly for young buyers of compact and sub-compact cars. Our belief is that front-wheel drive cars can be very rewarding to drive if properly set up. We also like the interior packaging space advantages, low mass and poor-weather traction of front-drive vehicles.
At Saab, there is a long and storied tradition of fast, reliable rally cars. These cars fed significant power through the front wheels and yet remained stable and entertaining to drive, which proved particularly important in long-distance races.
At auto shows we’re starting to see many small rear-drive concepts.
What do you think, should we work toward fun-to-drive front-drive or is rear-drive with all-wheel drive a better solution?
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Nothing sells American cars better than RWD and/or a V8. It helps set them apart from a large market of Asian cars, it’s what gives them character and you have to play to your strengths. I still think that some FWD vehicles are necessary for small cars and certain non-enthusiast models like some Buicks, but there ought to be a lot more RWD to go around.
As far as Saab is concerned, they should never produce a RWD only vehicle, it’s just sacrilege. AWD would be the way to go in my book (FWD-based AWD is fine for smaller vehicles, RWD-based AWD would be great for the 9-5, crossovers, and SUVs).
A hot little Kappa-based RWD coupe or sedan with seating for four would be a great addition to the Chevy and Pontiac line ups. A modern ‘57 Chevy maybe? Cars like that get serious street cred, and GM needs all it can get these days. Build ‘em light enough and the turbo Ecotec will be all the engine you’ll ever need. The aftermarked support base for that motor would just about double overnight with this kind of a vehicle.
You are correct that GM has built some of the best sorted out FWD vehicles, especially when it comes to high levels of power output (well controlled torque steer). It should be clear after years of success in this field, that the public simply won’t be converted on this issue, and the consensus is pretty clear on what they feel a true American vehicle should be. I just don’t see the value in fighting that perception.
Long-story-short, RWD for everything except the following:
-GMDAT small cars from Korea. At that price point, RWD adds too much cost and is less of a priority over the added interior space of FWD.
-Saabs should be AWD.
-Saturns. Gotta leave some cars to battle the imports! Focus your FWD expertise here.
-Some Chevys. It’s hard for me to think of Chevy without a FWD compact like the Cobalt, but if you can leave that to Saturn, that would work. FWD crossovers and minivans are okay too, as long as AWD is an option.
-Some Buicks. RWD performance isn’t a priority for this market. The lower range Buicks can shave some off the bottom line with FWD (probably shared with several crossovers to keep costs down). But make no mistake, Buick *NEEDS* RWD on at least the top half of their cars, otherwise no one will respect them and they’ll go the way of Oldsmobile.
-AWD options on many RWD Cadillacs, Pontiacs, Buicks, and even some Chevys. Of course, SUVs and trucks should have the normal RWD with 4WD or AWD option.
BTW, I’m 26 if you want to know exactly what age group to file this under. Thanks for listening.
Your likely to get some very skewed answers on this blog, as it is mostly automotive enthusiasts. Some with more taste than others.
FWD will and should always remain at the forefront of most passenger cars. It works beautifully for family cars, and people haulers. However, as soon as a car is intended to be the slightest bit exciting, a RWD with AWD mode should be availabe. The passionate cars need the RWD to satisfy the enthusiasts, while integrating AWD will ensure the vehicle is operable by all. I want nothing more than a G6 Coupe with 250+ horsepower and AWD. I think with RWD alone you alienate those comfortable with FWD, and with FWD alone you leave the sporting type at the side of the road. I love a good “sporty” car, but the thought of driving RWD on glare ice or in heavy snow conditions does not appeal to me.
A RWD with AWD option is definately the way to go.
RWD NOOOOOO!!
FWD and AWD/4WD yes!
if youre conscidering RWD you are killing SAAB!!
what SAAB needs is Fwd and 4wd with turbocharged v6 Biopower, output 380bhp!!
I currently drive a 2005 SAAB 9-3 linear. The packaging is very good, although the suspension is a little soft for my tastes. However, I much prefer the driving and handling dynamics of a rear wheel drive car. I am willing to sacrifice some interior packaging for better driving dynamics. What can I say I’m an enthusiast, and proud of it.
I vote FWD with AWD as an option. Course, I’m a Saab nut from way back in the 60’s. But Saab won some Showroom Stock A and B national championships with FWD in the 70’s, beating some Porsches and Datsun 280ZX’s in the process. So, yes, a properly setup FWD car can be a blast to drive–especially when travelling on unknown backroads.
I’d say go for the RWD. I personally prefer rear wheel drive. And at the moment, there are next to no small, sporty entry level, RWD cars. Offering such a product would definately peek my interest.
However, the bigger reason to go RWD, IMHO, is because a small, high performance FWD car is almost like the calling card of a Japanese company. If GM is to compete against the Japanese, they can either offer a similar product and make it better, or offer something they don’t. At the moment, there are no small, sporty Japanese RWD compact. Many Americans love drag racing as well and RWD offers advantage there too. I think it makes sense to go RWD.
J
Rear wheel drive, please!
Personally I have never been a big fan of front drive. The greater feeling of control I have in rear or AWD vehicles is one of the reasons look for these vehicles when I car shop.
Now, for the compact sub-compact market..hmmm.. if you can keep the price down shoot for the rear/AWD vehicles. But if it is going to significantly impact price then shoot for the front drive, that is after all the market.
DKK
I think Rear Wheel Drive with an AWD option makes more sense, especially for selling cars in warm weather climes.
GM does worst in California for instance. You could reverse that with an affordable RWD sedan, personally I would call it the Chevelle, with an AWD option which would be popular in the East.
Not every car needs to be RWD. For instance the Malibu could be FWD while the Impala should definitely be RWD with a AWD option. I am still shocked that you put out a Impala SS with FWD. It should have at least been AWD. Not having a AWD option on the Impala is just stupid.
If its a choice between FWD with AWD as an option, or RWD with AWD as an option then most defintely move to RWD.
I hate FWD cars, but on the East Coast an affordable AWD option on a RWD platform would negate any negatives.
Look at it this way-GM’s greatest success came when your cars were RWD. As soon as they switches to FWD sales tanked. Not your father’s Oldsmobile-remember that one?
OH…………and increase your warranties.
Front-drive is only fun to drive if you’ve got a little econobox that weighs so little it’s still fun to fling around, and even then, it would still be more fun with rear or all wheel drive.
If you’re going to spend more than $20k on a car you’re intending to have fun with, that car had better be RWD.
Why? RWD cars don’t have torque steer, and you can’t do donuts in a FWD car. (Not, obviously, that your average Saab owner is going to spend a lot of time doing donuts, but throttle steering is an important part of the performance car experience.)
Saab does indeed have a tradition of making spirited vehicles, but it’s not the front-drive aspect of the car that excites the average Saab owner, but rather the aircraft inspired designs, the quirky features, the high horsepower small displacement turbocharged engines, and the fact that the cool designs and turbocharged engines also come with a lot of safety features.
If Saab is going to compete with the rest of the import market, some compct/sub-compact RWD vehicles would be a great way to go.
A highly turboed Saab sub-compact competition drift car would be pretty sweet, especially if you made it available to the public.
(Speaking of which, any plans to sell a retail version of the GTO drift car?)
we need to convince people to buy american and save there jobs or everything will be imported
I appreciate the opportunity to share my thoughts.
If HP is > 500, then RWD.
If HP
Rear wheel drive. But then again, I’m more of a muscle car guy, not a compact car driver.
Get that Camaro out already!
i beleave that rear-wheel drive vehicles are better. I personally enjoy the way they handle over front-wheel drives and AWDs.
RWD all the way. design a light AWD for the FWD people!
If its back seats are meant to be used, and it’s not a large car, keep it FWD.
Part of the reason so many people like Acuras is that they have a lot more space than equivalent BMWs. Perfect for anyone who doesn’t flog their car.
Just work on steering feel, please. It’s been GM’s weak point in both FWD and RWD models, and don’t think that feel should be limited to cars like the Solstice.
RWD cars seem to track better on the freeway and the lack of torque steer and increased traction are additional benefits that can be felt during normal driving.
I would prefer to see front wheel drive in compact and sub-compact cars.
I think there’s a market for both. Economy cars such as the Cobalt should remain front-drive mainly for the reasons you mentioned above and because the typical buyer of such a car probably doesn’t care about the potential performance benefits.
Small cars with rear-wheel-drive can be enormously fun. BMWs have always had rear- (and recently all-wheel-drive). And look at the success of the Miata with car enthusiasts and weekend racers.
Many car companies have a variety of models to suit various needs. Lexus, for example, has the rear-wheel-drive IS-series for the performance-oriented driver and the front-wheel-drive ES-series for the more luxury-oriented driver.
GM has even embraced these ideals to some degree. Look at the Solstice and new Cadillac models. High-performance front-wheel-drive models can be entertaining, but they are all plagued by understeer at the limit and many have excessive torque steer.
Also, it’s nice not to have to replace CV axles every 150k miles.
You pose a good point about front-drivers. My family has two front-drive GM sedans and a 4WD Explorer. For our snow-belt Michigan roads, the FWD cars are as good as the 4×4 SUV 99.99% of the time. Rear-drive with traction control is nearly as good.
We would readily replace one FWD car with a rear-drive sedan or coupe, given it had a reasonable price tag (about half that of a Cadillac STS). Additionally, RWD-based AWD like BMW’s xDrive would offer an irresistable opportunity for people in northern states.
A company as big as GM must have rear-drive sedans/sports coupes priced for the masses. The Chevy Camaro Concept has awesome looks and the requisite RWD, now it needs to walk the walk with a fun-to-drive powertrain/suspension setup. Accomplish this, and you’re looking at a hit that’ll sell far more than the 150,000 units the business case requires to build it. Other rear-drive cars can help amortize the cost.
Most younger buyers don’t take FWD vehicles seriously as performance cars. BMW has had it right all along, Lexus got it with the IS. Audi, Saab, Volvo are still trying to catch up. AWD does not equal RWD.
Back before front-wheel drive became popular, Saabs were known as cars that got around good in the snow, and were seen a lot in snow country, ski areas, etc. Nowadays, pretty much everyone has front-wheel drive cars, so Saabs aren’t special that way any more. You see a lot more SUVs or Subaru 4wd autos at ski areas today. I think Saab should be looking seriously at 4wd, at least as an option, for its models.
Use fun-to-drive FWD for Saab and Saturn, with an AWD option for high performance models. Use RWD (AWD unnecessary) for all Chevrolets, Pontiacs, and Buicks over 16 feet long.
The best platform developement would be Front wheel drive. With a Rear Biased All wheel drive option. That platform would offer much higher volume potential.
Rear wheel drive platforms have lower appeal in volume segments.
FWD or AWD, never RWD.
I think that there are certain advantages to using both front-drive and rear-drive. There should be a good mix of products from GM that satisfy both. Front-drive is great for family sedans, rear-drive for performance-oriented cars. I think GM should definitely go for Zeta Lite, and it WILL sell.
IMO rear wheel drive is going to be a big selling point for newer small cars that are going to be sold towards the younger crowd who like to “tune” their cars. I myself am part of that crowd and can honestly say that a nice stripped lightweight rear wheel drive platform with lots of room for improvement from the aftermarket would sell like hotcakes.
Hi, I still consider myself as a young buyer at 29 but I’m not considering buying a small or midsize car. I only like large cars. FWD is a good thing mainly for smaller cars as it leaves more interior space and it gives lighter cars better traction.
Bigger ones should always be rear wheel drive. I’m still waiting for GM to make a rear wheel full size Buick that will replace my old ones.
I currently have 4 Buicks and the “newest” is a FWD 1991 Park Avenue Ultra. It’s still in good shape but I don’t like how it feels on the road. I never liked any FWD car anyway. I never liked 1977 and newer GM cars as they lack the hardtop roofs of the 1976 and older designs and they often have engines from other divisions.
4 door hardtop is my favourite body style and GM has not made one since 1976…
Please, make RWD full size Buicks with real frames, towing capacity, outstanding performance, great handling (fun to drive at any speed, in any conditions) and better style than the ugly 1977-1996 models…
I’d care more about that than “Quiet Tuning!”
See my 3 older Buicks on my CarDomain page to see the kind of cars that I like. I don’t like them because they are old but because that’s how modern cars should be made!
Regards
Phil Racicot
I see front wheel drive like a small, fun,4cyl 200hp car like a RSX. It’s fast but not that fast. Rear wheel drive drive is more like a muscular car with either a big 6 or a 8cyl dev. 250 or more.RWD looks and feel really fast. AWD is more a rally car look just like a Subaru STI. The best car for me would be a 4 cyl, AWD,coupe with 225hp atmospheric with a nice driving experience.I think people dont mind the cost if the car has what it needs.
Economy cars should be FWD
Performance cars should be RWD
For RWD cars that are not as pure performance and are intended to offer more utility, or for FWD that edge into that rally realm, offer AWD as an option.
Examples:
Camaro – RWD
Solstice – RWD
GTO – RWD
GP – RWD/AWD
G6 – FWD/AWD
Cobalt – FWD
Impala – FWD/AWD
Monte Carlo – RWD
…or something like that.
Odd you would ask, I was talking cars with the buds last week and I’m the one in the group that feels the next Camaro needs an all wheel drive option with the high feature V6. Of course the number one consideration is that the Camaro is built. And with no “b” pillar. And with V8 options (note the plural)
Most of all the engineers at GM need to recognize the teachings of Colin Champan rather than the arguement of drive wheels. Get the fricking wasted weight out of the product. No matter what anybody says the term “road hugging weight” is a load of baloney for saying the guys desgning the product were lazy or cheap. (lazy 9 out 0f 10) You can’t turn or launch weight but you can go faster without it.
I have driven a good number of front and rear wheel drive cars and I can comfortably say that I will never buy a front wheel drive car as long as I live. It does not matter how “rewarding” a front wheel drive car is to drive sedately, when pushed to its limits they just dont perform the same as a car with a proper, rear drive, setup. The new Camaro concept is a step in the right direction.
Rear wheel.. the only way to go. I drive an e36 BMW M3 (from a Pontiac Sunfire), and let me tell you *nothing* can beat 50/50 weight balance, lack of understeer, and the feedback/control you get from RWD. I’ll stay exclusively with RWD (or AWD) from now on.
Just look at the perennial winner for best car in class – BMW 3 series has been there since pretty much its inception. Balance is key – what good is horsepower if you have torque steer to contend with?
Surely future pedestrian safety requirements will eliminate many of the packaging advantages seen with, particular smaller, fwd vehicles. In contrast a large core of buyers are well aware of the performance advantages of rwd in terms of balance and power delivery, even in smaller vehicles with relatively modest power. Stability control and optional awd can easily overcome traction problems on most surfaces. In polls on broad GM enthusiast sites (chearsandgears.com and gminsidenews.com), there has been strong support for a compact rwd Pontiac to replace the Sunfire, while a rwd G6 replacement is favored over a fwd model by as more than 2:1. Witness the continued support for the last rwd compacts, especially the E80 series Sprinter/Corolla coupes and Nissan Silvia, the more recent accolades and cult following generated by the Subaru Impreza, Mazda RX-8 and BMW 1-Series (despite their packaging disadvantages). BMW’s reputation n the US was founded upon such a small compact. For GM, the Solstice concept generated a tidal-wave of requests for a small 4/5-seat Pontiac sedan/coupe, purely because it was rwd, and it is an idea which has just not gone away. Many people still call for a rwd Pontiac compact and lament the G4/Pursuit offered in Mexico and Canada. However well it sells it does nothing to support the brand’s continued existence. Here is a chance for GM to give Pontiac a unique niche in the market.
On the other hand the transverse engine fwd/awd format will continue to be the mainstream choice, and for Saab is so deeply ingrained in the brand character that rwd models are anethema to the purists.
Rear drive is great for the performance cars such as the Corvette and Camaro. I believe the Monte Carlo and Impala could benefit from a rear drive platform as well. Large cars have the room to benefit from the better balance and handling a well engineered rear drive platform can provide. Small cars, however, would be better off with front wheel drive, which allows a more passenger room on a small platform, and better bad weather traction in a light car. We all want to see the Camaro return, but definitely not the Chevette !
Slightly off topic, I want to tell you how much I enjoy my new G6 GTP Coupe! This car rocks! The quality is excellent, and I find I take the long way home to drive it more. One of the guys I work with has a Solara, and is the typical ToyoSnob, “better quality, OHC better, blah, blah”. I let him drive my GTP Coupe, and he was in shock. I told him to floor it up a steep hill, and his response was “Holy Crap this thing has guts!” Everyone who’s been in my car loves it. If you can just get the import buyers to take a test drive, things would turn around for GM. Keep up the good work !
Rear Wheel Drive! I think Chryslers success speaks volumes not only that but if chevy is going to build cars and then slap an SS badge on them espeacially when you guys are using nameplates that have a real and visceral fan base (ie the imapala the malibu and the up and coming camero ) these nameplates shouldnt be used lightly the Impala hasnt been cool since 96 front drive v6 and it looks like a rental well at least you brought back the malibu oh wait thats a rental to.
FWD with occasional AWD models. See Ford 500.
Critical here in Minnesota!
FWD, RWD, or AWD can be designed and tuned for maximum performance. FWD benefits from packaging efficiency. RWD gives great performance, but you gotta know that if you try to sell cars that are only available with RWD, then understand that they will be rotting on your dealer lots from November through March at dealers in cold weather states. Any car you plan to offer with RWD, you had better offer AWD as an option, because it would be idiotic and foolish to shut out half your markets.
Simply put–front wheel drive still has its purpose on lower end cars like, for instance, Cobalts and Malibus, but when you build a relatively large luxury sedan, or a car like the new Camaro, it HAS to be rear wheel drive to even be considered legitimate.
You can put all the latest electro gizmos on the dash, the most beautiful materials, etc., but if I’m buying something the size and price of a Lucerne/DTS, it either has to be rear drive or it’s not even a consideration. Case in point, had Chrysler brought out the LX cars with the same look and price, but in front drive form, they wouldn’t have been nearly the success they are today. Well, that, and do you EVER see a front drive Mercedes or BMW? Didn’t think so…
To bring up another mentioned brand, Saab doesn’t exactly fit the rear drive image, but a new fwd platform with AWD capabilities certainly would.
I have mixed feelings about RWD. My first car in 1989 was a RWD ‘79 Olds Cutlass, and I loved driving it. After sending it to the junkyard with a slipping transmission in late 1994, I bought a FWD ‘89 Buick Regal. It was nice to drive for a few weeks since it was much nicer than the Cutlass, but it quickly became just boring transportation. After lots of little things started to go wrong with it, I traded it in for a new 2001 Buick Regal. This was about the same as the ‘89, nice upgrade for a while, then dull.
In late 2004, I traded the Regal in for a new RWD 2005 Cadillac CTS with the sport suspension package. It was wonderful to return to a RWD car, and I still enjoy and look forward to driving it every day, even after owning it for more than a year. I’m not sure I could go back to FWD and torque steer again. Fish-tailing a RWD car is almost like having your own personal amusement park ride.
But RWD is not perfect. The car spins a lot more on snow and ice than the FWD cars did. There are lots of things that help like traction control, stability control, the snow mode on the transmission and near 50-50 weight distribution, but I wouldn’t try driving it in deep snow or after an ice storm with the stock tires.
RWD cars also tend to be more expensive because of the increased engineering complexity of the drive shaft and differential when FWD cars only have C-V joints. And AWD is even more complex and expensive, and has more problems like lower gas mileage, reduced performance and likely higher maintenance and lower long-term durability and reliability.
I would love to have more RWD choices from GM, but I imagine I am not in the majority of typical car owners in the US. Particularly in northern states where there is more snowfall, and older people who remember the days before FWD, I think lots of people would remember the nightmare of putting snow tires on their car, and still spinning and getting stuck, and they would stay away from RWD. The almost mandatory increase in the price of a RWD car compared to the FWD competition might also keep people away. I think there would be a huge marketing hurdle to overcome before RWD becomes mainstream.
We should also discuss the ethics of car sales here. How many people who have bought a RWD car like a Cadillac or the new Chrysler cars weren’t aware and weren’t informed by the sales person that the car was RWD, and didn’t discover this until they tried to drive it in the snow and ice? I would bet a fairly significant number.
So, should GM make more RWD or AWD cars? I would say yes, but only on select models. Pontiac should be mostly RWD, except for entry-level models like the G6 or a G4. Buick should have a RWD/AWD flagship sedan to replace the Park Avenue. Cadillac should be entirely RWD with AWD available on some models. Chevy should only have a few RWD cars like Corvette, Camaro, and maybe Impala with AWD available. Saturn should have the Sky roadster and maybe a flagship with RWD/AWD.
Many car companies have stayed mostly or entirely FWD for so many years now that bringing back RWD to the masses isn’t a decision to be made quickly or lightly. The people in control of financing new car designs at GM have to be convinced of the need for the added price and complexity and the drawbacks of RWD and AWD. You have to make sure not to listen too much to the small but vocal minority (you know who you are) who are constantly demanding a V-8 powered coupe with 400-500+ horsepower that costs under $25,000. That price is not attainable, only a tiny number of buyers who are auto enthusiasts desire that much power, insurance costs will be enormous, and there is such a small demand for coupes anymore, I don’t know how any car company can justify or make any money on such a vehicle. But GM can make money on RWD/AWD cars if the models are carefully chosen and properly marketed to the people who have never owned one.
I am about to lease my fourth Saab (900 SE Turbo, 9-5 Aero, 9-5 Aero, 9-3 SC Aero). I live outside of Philadelphia. There are enough hills and enough snow here to make rear-wheel drive a bad idea. (I’ve watched too many people slide around and into one another.)
I would not purchase a rear-wheel drive car (even from Saab) even though I expect that good-wether driving would be more fun w/RWD. All wheel drive is fine, but adds weight (which can hurt performance and mileage) and expense.
You need front-wheel and all-wheel drive products. Maybe a hybrid with the gas engine driving the front wheels and electric motors driving the rear would get you more of the off-the-line acceleration that folks want without inducing too much torque steer.
Personal I like either front-wheel drive or all-wheel drive vehicles, living in Massachusetts, thats whats needed in 5-6 months of winter driving.
I’m about to turn 30 and I personally prefer RWD. That said, I live in Toronto and my last car (Saab 9-3) beat out the Cadillac CTS for two reasons: first, it was smaller and I like smaller cars; second, it was FWD and my wife hates RWD in the winter (we are a one car family).
So, I guess that wasn’t the answer you were looking for. I would like to see the FWD cars (some of which are inevitable) to be as fun as possible, so those of us who are stuck with them can enjoy them. At the same time, if the decision were mine alone I would take a RWD car over a FWD car everytime (and, to be honest, I probably would have got the CTS if it had only 1 of the two problems mentioned above).
>Our belief is that front-
>wheel drive cars can be
>very rewarding to drive if
>properly set up.
The key terminology being “if properly set up.” Which rarely happens, especially in a high-volume car by a mainstream manufacturer. Such a set up is reserved for high dollar cars.
And even so, I’ve still not seen a properly set-up FWD car that was more enjoyable to drive than a comparable RWD or AWD counterpart.
So I vote RWD or AWD.
I like FWD like most Saab
enthusiasts . However Saab
should start to entertain
AWD especially when you are approaching 250hp -300hp
The Saab will work so much
better through an AWD system.
anyway that is what I think
Saab -GM should go to from 2008 on. epsilon 2 Platform ?
It’s painfully obvious from the wording of your question that GM prefers the status quo, and doesn’t want to invest in the Kappa platform.
Rearwheel drive is better for the sole reason that the front tires don’t have to divide their grip between acceleration and turning. Rear wheel drive is waht real drivers want, and as Chrysler has shown the American manufactures, is the way to go.
Its vary simple, if a car is front wheel drive I will never buy it. My moms mini van and my grandmothers car are front wheel drive. I drive rear wheel drive cars with standard transmissions and thats it.
Of all my friends, I don’t know a single person who would prefer front-wheel drive. We are all enthusiasts and here is the general consensus about fast cheep cars. We all like the WRX and Evo (not really cheep), the Mazda 3 and 6 are cool, civic is cool, srt-4 is fast but has zero style, etc. But what we all really want, but won’t talk about ’cause we can’t afford it is a BMW 3 series. So, build a RWD G6 with 200 horses, and people will be lined up at the lots. The real coup-de-tat would be a G6 that comes in FWD, RWD, or AWD. Then you will rule the industry. Do it with the Cobalt too. Then build a RWD performance version of the G6 with some serious muscle that can beat an M3 on the track. I know you can do it, just look at the Corvette. I don’t expect to be able to afford it, but when someone buys a 325i they think of it as getting a tuned down M3, not 16 fewer horses than a GLI.
Jack,
My friends and I like the idea of rear wheel drive, but bad weather traction is still a concern. Never the less, I think it would be a good idea for GM to offer a rear drive vehicle as part of the Chevrolet or Pontiac line. However, this vehicle should have the option of an AWD system as well. That way buyers in the northern part of the country can choose AWD, while still providing buysers in the southern states the option of not incurring the additional costs and power loss associated with AWD. The main concern I have with front wheel drive vehicles is that some have so much power they can not turn effectively under hard acceleration (G6 GTP). If the G6 was AWD I would love it. The additional cost would not bother me. Good luck with your research. I hope this helps.
RWD
I guess I would be in the demographic GM is pointing to. And to put it bluntly, I don’t think I will ever buy another FWD car. If the car was compelling and had a good motor, I would prefer AWD. But the choices for AWD cars that are attractive from the design, power, and cost department are few and far between. That’s quite all right though, as RWD has worked for me in my past 5 cars and my next one, a Saturn Sky.
Conventional wisdom is that RWD should be reserved for large cars, since there is a big space efficiency penalty.
Putting it in small cars is brain-dead, despite the current “show car” fad. I gave that up with an ‘82 Corolla.
If GM makes FWD cars that handle like MINI’s, or Subaru style AWD cars that don’t swig gas (at least not brutally), customers will come…but I still like FWD for just the reasons you outline – space efficiency, intrinsically safer handling (had a BMW do a 360 on me, but never a FWD problem), MUCH GREATER fuel efficiency than AWD, better snow handling etc.
I wouldn’t chase the Chrysler 300/Magnum/Charger series, since DC could economically build on the Mercedes “old technology bits and pieces” instead of having to do the job from scratch. Besides, if RWD were intrinsically that popular, wouldn’t the Ford Crown Victoria be ultra-popular? Or the old RWD Impala?
Even the RWD Mustang was languishing until the recent restyle. (Come to think about it, maybe the Chrysler 300’s “style” has more to do with its success than the RWD/FWD issue.)
The SINGLE area where GM should have RWD is – well – the Camaro. Just so it matches the Mustang and provides an alternative to the DC RWD’ers. In that context, the “balanced handling” will appeal to “enthusiasts.” But be sure to include stability control, which Ford didn’t (hey, watch me slide into the snow bank!), and get the weight balance as close to 50-50 as possible (something Chrysler and Dodge was able to do) or all the real-world RWD negatives will be there in spades.
BTW, I drove a friend’s New Beatle with the latest anti-slip and stability control technology, and it did super in the snow. How ’bout more limited slip differentials in FWD cars, instead of AWD, which is massive overkill?
I refuse to buy FWD at this point, I only consider a model if it is RWD or AWD. I don’t like torque steer or wheel hop(as the tires wear) that FWD is prone to. Also you can make a much better steering system if you have RWD. Finally, weight distribution is helped by RWD as well. All these add up to a more engaging and fun to drive car, and that is what I like to buy.
RWD is more fun, no doubt. Does GM want a piece of the drifting culture?
You speak of “significant power” through the front wheels of the SAAB. 184kW is pedestrian.
Why aren’t you putting forward an example of your Australian arm who have their entry level family car with 175kW? Okay, it’s a little less than the Saab, but it handles it easily because it’s RWD. The platform is also sold with engines right up to 297kW.
Front wheel drive has its place – small to medium cars with sensible amounts of power which have to compete in a very competitive market segment.
That said, give me my V8 RWD anyday. (and AWD if you have to)
Although I almost never push my car to its limits, I would always choose rwd over fwd. The way a car “feels” while taking a turn is one of the main reasons why I like rwd better – in my experience, the difference can be felt even while driving in a mildly aggressive manner (in a way that won’t get you in trouble if seen by mr police officer). Also, I think the snow traction advantage of fwd is not as great as people think, especially if you get a second pair of tires dedicated for winter on your rwd car.
There is not even one ounce of doubt: Rear wheel drive cars are more rewarding to drive, more desirable to own, and – beacuse of the mechanical layout – RWD cars have a better stance on the road: Short front overhang, cab-rearward designs that communicate elegance and strength. There is no doubt at all.
I think there’s definitely a market for compact, rear wheel drive vehicles.
I do, however, think it’s a niche market, as RWD in a compact car will have a number of drawbacks. Longitudinal engine mounting means longer hoods which limits what can be achieved in truly compact dimensions. Transmission tunnels mean center rear seats are basically a waste (it’s debatable how useful they are anyway, but people like to have the option). Rear differentials can intrude upon rear cargo space. Modest decreases in fuel economy due to more spinning parts in the drive train. Today’s traction/stability control systems and good suspension and tires greatly help the grip and driving safety issues that used to be associated with rear wheel drive (though such things need to be easily disabled for enthusiast approval).
Realistically, I’d say that putting good, lively steering into a compact is more important, or perhaps just an easier way to gain more support from enthusiasts. Mazda3s, Mini Coopers, and older Honda Civics are an example of this.
But, if good steering could do everything enthusiasts wanted in small cars, we wouldn’t need the Pontiac Solstice and Mazda MX5. Those vehicles have the advantage of not worrying about practicality very much.
The fusion of the compact sports car and practical compact was fairly well illustrated in Mazda’s Kabura concept, though it was slightly lost in the noise of the muscle cars at the Detroit show. I could definitely see a vehicle of similar character being offered through Pontiac especially. The Kappa platform already used at Pontiac is obviously a great place to start with such a vehicle, since it’s the right size, it’s cost effective, and according to early media praise, quite rewarding to drive. A lengthened wheelbase to make more room for passengers, two doors, a legitimately useful 2+2 layout, flexible cargo area accessed from a hatch, combined with some of the styling and handling success of the solstice, I think would be quite desirable. I think interior space of a Scion TC is a good goal to shoot for in a vehicle like this.
Where a compact, RWD vehicle fits into the rest of the GM world, to me, is a little less clear. Chevy already has a range of quality cars in the compact segment. Adding all wheel drive to the Cobaly/HHR line seems more logical, though theoretically a transfer case like an AWD one could be simplified into a rear wheel drive transfer case for a transverse engine car, and that could avoid some of the packaging and engineering problems of adapting a mainstream vehicle line to RWD to gain more enthusiast approval.
The direction Saturn is going seems to be one that could accept rear or all wheel drive compacts too, since the Ion is expected to be replaced, and Saturn’s image reworked somewhat. Whether it would be better to start with Kappa platform (Sky) or Delta platform (Astra) is a larger question.
Either way, in many consumer’s eyes, GM isn’t a strong player in the compact segment, and I could easily envision some “sexier” vehicles drawing people into the showrooms, just as dodge/chrysler have used their LX platform vehicles as a catalyst for greater success. It’s a situation that shows the power that styling and rear wheel drive have to give a mainstream vehicle line tremendous momentum.
I can’t stand driving front drive cars. I don’t lke the torque steer issue and the “pulling” feeling you get. This greatly limits my choices for a car, and I am getting a little tired of driving trucks.
Rear wheel drive will always rule “fun-to-drive”. A setup with reasonable weight distribution and a limited slip negates much of the FWD advantage. AWD, adds weight, cost and complexity.
To begin, I’m a young male (21) just out of college and in the market for a new car. I live in the North East where weather conditions can be a serious consideration when choosing a vehicle.
I’m a domestic car enthusiast, and if I could design the ideal compact car configuration for my tastes it would be a full-time AWD hatch or quad-coupe with a turbo 4. Since I can’t afford more than one vehicle, this vehicle satisfies my needs for 1 performance 2 economy 3 utility 4 all season capability. This would be the ideal replacement for my 2 door jimmy 4×4, and a car many different people with varying needs could find enjoyable and useful. I would be willing to put snow tires on a RWD performance car to drive it year-round, but 90% of buyers aren’t devoted enough to go to the trouble of buying and storing an extra set of wheels and tires.
You can play in the enthusiast compact segment with FWD successfully, but you need an area of differentiation. THere is no shame in having the base car FWD, but a performance version should ideally be full-time AWD. Part-time AWD systems work fine for car-based utility vehicles, but no one considers it a performance credential, look how many Volvo S60R’s you see on the road…
The best way to sell cars to young enthusiasts is to offer the most high-tech/futuristic features at the lowest possible price. AWD and turbo-charging are considered by many to be advanced technology. That is why mitsubishi used to be revered by the youth with beauties like the 3000GT and Eclipse when they were turbo charged and AWD. The problem was that these cars were too expensive when new, but had absolute cult status on the used car market. Another new car I’d look at very carefully is the new Civic. While it seems that young people liking a civic is cliche, the newest generation offers two things that I really like. The high-winding racecar-like engine in the Si, and the LED speedo and the split instument panel. It looks futuristic and advanced to my young eye (the rest of the civic and civics past don’t appeal to me in the least). One thing to be careful of, don’t go over the top. The Nissan Urge is perhaps the least desirable concept I’ve ever seen RWD or not. It isn’t futuristic, but in the style of a bad japanese cartoon.
I wish I had the opportunity to better answer your questions if I haven’t completely. I am an avid domestic car enthusiast and would be proud to help GM’s market research if I would be of any use in a focus group or something of the like. ccortazzo@gmail.com
Interesting question… You could spit the difference with AWD like Audi and the A3 S-line. Wait, you had that with the 9-2. The tough part about small rwd is the balance with the car weighing very little and all the weight up front and the rears pushing. I live in Canada and this setup would not work well up here year round. California should be another story. I say make a Solstice Coupe or Hatch with AWD and I would be sold.
Im 16, have a passion for all things automotive and believe that rwd is the only way to go. you would have to pay me to buy a fwd car. end of story (ps my 3 friends sitting here reading this feel the same way).
You know it is obvious one of the reasons GM is doing a little poorly is because performance versions of economy cars like the GXP and SS lines are not either RWD or AWD. It’s a known fact RWD is just too fun. Being a 2004 GTO owner I can say that for sure. Les the smaller SS, GXP, and Red Line ranges be AWD. Like an AWD Cobalt SS, G6, and ION.
I believe RWD is far more appropriate for larger cars, were the packaging advantages of FWD are not so important… The BMW 1 series hatch shows how RWD greatly comprimises the space efficiency of the basic hatchback design. As for the Saab brand, I believe just as RWD is BMW’s thing, FWD seems a Saab thing. Why not make Saab the best handling FWD cars in the world? Remember, the very cool Sabb Sonett of thge ’70s was FWD…
huh… usually, id say rear drive all the way, but its winter so i can see how rear with AWD could really come in handy… i doubt a chevy cobalt ss or pontiac g6 gtp could compete with a mitsu lancer evo or a subie wrx sti, but itd still be cool and probably sell well here up north… although cars like the GTO and that camaro concept should stay pure RWD. but most of your sedans would prolly be more appealing with RWD… and maybe total redesigns (just messing with you!!! not ALL of them need ground-up redesigns :p)… yeah but if you look at how the chrysler LX cars are selling, you gotta start moving back to RWD… a lot of your FWD cars make no sense with V8s… the monte carlo especially needs RWD 1. because the nascar version has it and 2. because a v8 sport coupe should be.
i guess what im trying to say is…
MORE REAR-DRIVE/V8 CARS!!!
it works for chrysler, itll work for you. and you’ll catch ford off guard… theyre going all fwd and putting every new car on a mazda chassis…
The only thing making the Cobalt a good car is front wheel drive, if it had rear wheel drive it’d be a GREAT car.
Sports car enthusiasts don’t care about bad weather traction, interior design or anything else as long as the seat is comfortable enought to drive in for 8 hours.
Rear wheel drive inspires, front wheel drive leaves much to desire. (You can quote that, name’s Ryan).
Depends what you mean by handling. I like my 9-3 and my wife’s 9-2. The 9-2 handles very differently to the 9-3 due to its four wheel drive. A rear wheel drive car is more fun, but that’s because you can easily lose control with it more than a front wheel or 4WD car. The trick is to get people in to test drive the cars. What would really work with the Saab’s is a slightly better grade of materials for the dashboard (they are quite plasticky), and the option of 4WD for the 9-5.
Americans buy cars on looks, and we’re being served a whole plate of ugly. We have scads of FWD cars with cavernous interiors, but they are generally stubby, pug-faced things with tall slab sides and no overhangs. When you turn the engine sideways and go “cab forward” until it hurts, you lose the traditional RWD proportions that appear balanced and natural to the eye. Whether they know it or not, buyers have a sense of how a car should fill space.
Also, FWD is mechanically inferior. Poor balance, driveline lash, binding, and torque steer are all very real to anyone with the half-presence to know what is going on. FWD is one advertising campaign away from being established cheap and cut-rate in the eyes of the public. Pile on the technology buzzwords, and RWD is back. Fancy traction control defeats what everyone heard from their uncle’s friend about his 1978 BMW being bad in the snow. The anti-FWD counterrevolution is already underway, regardless.
From the enthusiast’s point of view, the RWD landscape is barren. Nothing along the lines of a classic BMW 2002 is available to the American masses, and the rear-drive sedans out there are all tagged as “premium” with massive stickers. The 3-series, IS-series, and G35 are nice cars if you’re in the bourgeois earning bracket. Even the entry-level BMW 1-series can get spendy in a hurry, and we can’t even touch one. We despirately need dynamically good, affordable RWD cars with clean, unpretentious packaging and weekend warrior performance for realistic prices.
Plain RWD Commodores and Falcons are everywhere in Australia. Why is it that a country with a fraction of the population has regular cars that are far better?
My next car purchase will be a Kappa coupe (if produced) or what becomes of the Mazda Kabura concept. Car nuts are still stinging from Nissan selling a watered-down 240SX and then cancelling it in 1998. It was the last car of its ilk, and we want more. Build me a Solstice GT turbo hardtop for reasonable money, and you’re mine. Build Saabs that drive like a BMW, and you’ll take the respect, too. RWD is mandatory, no matter what.
I really like the idea of RWD or AWD cars. I know in my mind, whenever I hear that I immediately think performance. I’ve always been told that RWD cars are horrible in the winter, but I still want one. AWD seems really sporty too, but with alot more practicality. This is probably a good thing, it’s just really hard to find on an affordable AWD car is my POV. When I think AWD I normally think subaru or something, whose cars are alot more expensive than their non AWD counterparts from other car manufacturers.
As we’ve seen in the past with variable displacement, fuel injection, I believe that someday a manufacturer will invent a technology that will maximize the capabilities of front wheel drive layouts, one that will enable front-biased cars to acheive near 50/50 weight distribution, allow for high-horsepower engines, and give enthusiasts the fun-to-drive character that RWD enthusiasts currently enjoy.
Obviuosly the auto industry as a whole has not hit that mark yet. The pieces are there: sophisticated transmissions with electronically delivered torque, advanced AWD systems and limited slip front differentials. None of these, however, have been able to sway hardcore RWD enthusiasts from jumping to “the dark side”.
The problem is what to do with all that weight on top of the rear wheels. Short of developing an entirely new engine/transaxle layout that can be moved behind the wheels yet maintain the packaging advantages of FWD, that weight isn’t going anywhere anytime soon.
I’m not going to argue for or againt FWD or RWD, as I believe that both have their places in the auto industry. I will say that whatever drivetrain config that GM decides to go with, let it lead the industry in innovation.
RWD all the way.
Saab, I can understand, I mean, that’s their thing. I dont think people are asking for Rear Wheel Drive Saab’s though, so that wont work for justifying FWD. With the overwhelming success of DC’s LH platform, I think the choice is obvious. Problem is, I cant think of any RWD compacts or sub-compacts offered in America, sans the two seat Mx-5 and Solstice/Sky.
Maybe it’s time for GM to make the bandwagon, rather than joining it. The market is there.
Do I sense a bit of front wheel drive bias in the lead-in to this “poll?”
It’s all pro FWD and not one mention of the merits of RWD, or am I being too sensitive?
Anyway count one vote for RWD on certain platforms like Corvette, the new Retro muscle cars that are in prototype form at the moment and the Monte Carlo so they match what is on the NASCAR tracks.
BTW, nice selection of “Blogs we Like.” (Disclosure: I contribute to Fast Machines.)
I have been a Saab fan for a long time, but you almost lost me to Audi or Infiniti on my last purchase. I purchased a 9-2X over the summer because I really wanted the AWD. But, the car was simply too small to be an effective family car.
This winter I traded it in for a 9-5. I love the car, it is the second one I have owned in the last 5 years — which is why I went back to it. But, I seriously considered an Audi A6 because of the AWD.
In the end I stuck with the 9-5, because it is so much fun to drive. But, in three or four years when I am ready to trade in my 9-5, I would love to have the option for AWD, or a the option to purchase an AWD cross-over vehicle (I need something with better fuel economy than an SUV).
I am a fan of AWD (all wheel drive). You get plenty of traction in all types of weather and its great for handling during a race. Something along the lines of a Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4 AWD or Second Generation Eclipse GSX AWD would be a huge hit for people my age 18-26, as long as it was easy to tune, like the old Mitsubishi’s, Nissan’s, and Honda’s. the main problems that limit tuning are cheap (not well made) parts and ECU’s that don’t allow more flexablity. AWD is what we want over any kinda of drive train. You come out with an good looking, tunable AWD car and I will buy it. AND PLEASE DONT MAKE IT LOOK LIKE AN AVEO!!!
Personally, when it comes to compact cars, FWD seems to be more popular is fine. When I think of RWD, I think more of sports cars or at least “sporty” cars. Of course, there are sporty compacts that have FWD, like the VW GTI…
Of Course, Saab could use something to set it apart from the rest of GM. No offense, but the brand can get a little…shall we say…”bland”…at certain times, and I think a RWD compact car would be different from what everyone else had and it would fun to drive if you guys pulled it off right…
Plus it would be a good selling point for Saab…
Good question. I recently owned an Acura RSX Type-S, which was a blast to drive. However, despite the best efforts of Honda’s engineers, it did suffer from the torque steer inherent to front drive layouts. Also, due to the front drive layout the car lacked balance with over 60% of the weight in the front, which caused terminal understeer. I replaced the car with an Acura TL which suffers the same issues. I also shopped the Lexus IS 250 which is rear wheel drive and the base model costs less than the TL. I enjoyed the rear wheel drive handling dynamics, but I found it impossible to get a good driving position, as I am 6 foot 2 and found the IS 250 a bit cramped. Although I prefer the handling characteristics of rear wheel drive, the better overall value and superior driving position of the TL made the decision easy.
For Saab?
FWD and AWD…no brainer.
I will only buy rear-wheel drive. Other than a front-wheel drive ‘95 Beretta that I drive to and from work, I have only owned Camaro’s, and needless to say, I’m very excited about the new Camaro that will be replacing my Beretta in a few years. I also have a ‘99 Camaro SS convertible that is kept in the garage.
Some people don’t care if a car is FWD or RWD, and don’t know the difference, but I think the market is shifting back to RWD for a reason. You can still have ample space inside a vehicle and perform just fine in bad weather with RWD if it is set up correctly. I really love the new Impala SS but I would never want a V8 FWD car because you can’t use that much power if it’s all going through the front wheels. It baffles me that you would put a V8 in a car, and then handicap it with “Torque Management” software that dumbs it down as it shifts so the transmission doesn’t explode. Doesn’t that defeat the purpose?
FYI, I’m 24 so I guess I would fall under the younger crowd. I am not interested in sport compacts or small cars, but RWD is a requirement for whatever car I buy new.
Wow, this is not even a question. If you are performance oriented, then RWD is the ONLY way to go. I own a FWD car and at 372whp, traction is a luxury I no longer have. I also drive a, just as powerful, RWD car and it is much better for traction, period. Yes FWD can be fast, but a fast FWD car will be an even faster RWD car. Traction is the name of the game and it is insanely hard to keep a high-powered FWD car’s wheels from doing nothing but spinning. Spinning the wheels is only cool the first couple times then it becomes annoying very fast and you only wish you had traction.
While I am quite happy with the current fwd configuration, if SAAB wishes to compete with BMW and Lexus I’m believe RWD will be required.
Having said that, GM needs to pick a strategy and stick with it. We’ve had the promise of the Alfa-SAAB 9-5 with was cancelled. We’ve had the 1/2 baked 9-2, the on again off again 9-4. Now we’re left without anything new until years from now. Please pick a plan and stick with it.
I would say to stand apart for the crowd, you go the RWD route. Technology can overcome some of the RWD drawbacks in poor weather climates with perception a being a greater hurdle.
To save Pontiac, I say a line of small, rear drivers is the answer. No one can claim it’s a rebadged Chevy or something else. It would also be unique in the market place and in my opinion would do very well with the youth and tuner/drifting crowd. Pontiac would be the equivalent of what it was to the youth market in the 1960’s, but in a completely different vein. Think a performance oriented Scion brand.
Camaro is long over due and would capitalize on the market for outfitting classic musclecasr with modern running gear, expect it would be from the factory.
Both Toyota and Nissan are sitting on two cult classics, the Corolla SR5 and 240SX that GM can come in and beat to market while cementing themselves as a youth brand.
Fun-to-drive rear-drive with all-wheel drive for the win.
Something rear engine would be nice too.
I think if it is under 200hp a fwd car is a good idea. Much beyond that and a rwd car is more fun.
You are in a tough spot with Saab. It’s always been FWD and I don’t think GM is committed to making it competitive with BMW and Audi. So keep it FWD and try to be competitive with the Lexus ES series.
There is no doubt that the premium market prefers RWD because it is more fun to drive but there is a niche for premium FWD that the ES serves.
You are sort of admitting that GM’s FWD cars have not been “set up correctly.” You should be worrying more about your bread-and-butter sedans. You should be cutting three quarters of your brands, consolidating your product line, and making something that’s at least marginally competitive with the Accord and Camry. Saab is a distraction.
I think on a fun or sporty car driving dynamics should outwiegh fiscal and production concerns. So I’d lean toward rear-drive on anything but a boring family sedan or econobox should be RWD. Take a cue from BMW. Nobody wants to spend BMW money on a car that drives like a front-drive Pontiac.
GM Has fun to drive FWD Cars already like the Grand Prix GXP. Also the Cobalt. The Pontiac Vibe has great handling and awesome winter traction but is lacking in the power output area.
If you ask me GM needs a RWD to AWD car. A good car to make AWD would be the Cobalt but the frame structure might not be capable. A small sporty RWD car is needed to compeat with the Mazada RX8 and Mustang. If it comes with AWD it will sell better because it will handle better and appeal to a daily driver to us in the Areas where we get snow.
pleeeeeeease no more front wheel drive on vehicles especially not on the NEW CAMARO!!!!!!! Im 24 years of age and waiting for the new camaro to come out so please dont dissapoint a loyal bowtie customer is willing to buy a american vehicle and no foreign tin can!!!
Hi, first of all, I commend you for taking this approach and reaching out to consumers, who ultimately matter most. I think this is an extremely important question, and one that could ultimately lead GM to new directions and unique directives for certain brands. Ultimately the question should be, how many people are willing to drive a RWD car for the sake of the neutrality, balance, and overall sportiness. No matter what you argue, FWD simply cannot replicate the athletic feel and perfect balance that a well-proportioned RWD car can; and the FWD cars you make, aside from the Astra, are not compelling arguments in your favor either. RWD in today’s world is a premium feature. Luxury makes and expensive cars have it, but aside from the 350Z, Mustang and a couple other lower priced cars, there are no sporty cars in the 15k-30k region offered. GM has oft-been critized of being late to the party and not understanding where the customer is going and where they would like to be. In the last few years we have witnessed an explosion of all RWD/AWD cars that has amounted to significant market share gains at many automakers. Infiniti, Chrysler, Ford, BMW, MB, Lexus have all seen revolutions in recent times led by RWD cars. Can people in the middle of the country utilize RWD and not suffer because of it? Yes, this is proven. Countless hundreds of thousands of people drive BMWs every year in the Snow Belt. This is not the question GM should be asking. The question GM needs to ask themselves is, what are our brand’s positioning and where do they need to go in order to survive. I am talking Buick, I am speaking of Pontiac. Thier death is almost imminent; a drastic upheaval of how cars are designed at those particular brands NEEDS to take place if I am to be thinking of Pontiac and Buick in the present-sense in 2015. This kind of upheaval does not mean abandoning the current market, but offering things even the current market for those makes could relish, and expanding beyond that base and winning back consumers from the imports. A RWD G6, G4, and G8 would be perfect for Pontiac. With the right ocntent, styling, packaging, and pricing of around 15-45k for the entire range, Pontiac would see an intense revival. As you’ve already surmised, I am a RWD proponent. I am not oppposed to AWD vehicles built off of RWD platforms. RWD with the kind of technology cars are packing today is more than enough for many. I can understand there are some who live in particularly hilly areas of the Snow Belt who might feel they really do need it, but I wager them to drive a new car with modern technology that is RWD and a set of snow tires and experience the reality of it. If they still need AWD, find by me, my plan calls to offer it. The new Camaro platform is something that should leveraged across Pontiac and Buick for smaller sedans, a revival of the Skylark and a new G6. The G6 would be the ultimate sport sedan priced at around where it is now. Make it with a retro Firebird face, a lot like newer Alfa’s, don’t forget aggressive and sexy body, and it’ll sell. Buick’s version would be a competitor to the S40, A4, 9-3, TSX. Cars Buick SHOULD be competing against. Come on GM, what is it going to take for you to learn that all a brand needs is new, groundbreaking product for a revival. We’ve got the quality and reliability, go for it! You did it at Cadillac with massive success despite questionable quality [interior quality and design does not match the competition, no excuses, performance doesn't always match rivals]; and this is only one brand story of the past five years that have seen automakers fighting for whatever piece of the pie they can. To conclude this, I will be in the market in a year for a sporty convertible right about the size of the current 3-series. I know you won’t be able to offer that car within a year, but I expect my tastes won’t change, and I have always wanted the sporties, most tossable car I could find. Build it for me and I will help revive Pontiac.
I would suggest you look at something like Nissan’s FM platform as an example. They are able to make an assortment of well handling vehicles from this platform. Front wheel drive has an advantage in packaging but has perceived limits in handling and performance with car guys. What GM needs is flexibility to change quickly when the marketplace changes. For example, gas prices are high and Toyota has a full hybrid and GM brings out new large SUVs and has only partial hybrids. I really want to see GM succeed but it will take a new vision and a willingness to change some corporate values. Instead of asking about FWD vs RWD how about AWD? A FM type platform can accomplish that in a spectacular way.
I think RWD is far superior in most regards. While it is true that FWD is move drivable in inclimate weather, Any other time RWD has the advantage. Here are a few RWD advantages (IMO): Better weight transfer on accelleration. Able to handle more power. Able to do “fishtails”
. Better balance. Longitudinal motor. No Torque steer. Oversteer vs. understeer. Think about it, the best cars in the world are typically RWD, there is a reason. Why were the Buick GN and Impala SS (early 90’s)so d**n popular while thier more powerful and refined FWD offspring are either too boring to be cool or too full of shortcomings to be taken seriously. I have posted elsewhere that a great car for GM would be a large, 5 passenger convertible RWD V8. Thats the formula. A completely unfilled niche. Good modern styling with a few retro cues.
In many ways, this is another case of “GM can do no right”.
The fact is for years front-wheel drive has worked fine and been refined and made better…anyone remember several years ago how the ‘geniuses’ at Audi came out with that complex front suspension system that could handle higher levels of power and not torque steer?
Now, however, the tide of public opinon has been swayed, and I believe largely by the press, that modern, highpower smaller cars can *never* handle the turning, braking and acceleration all through the front wheels.
True? Not exactly, but to come out with a small, sporty, front-wheel drive car is to swim against the tide (acura, anyone?)
It can be done, Acura comes out with the TL and it’s still front wheel drive and even THEY are criticized… but the new TSX is highly praised. Front-wheel drive.
Let’s face it, GM is absolutely not going to get any slack. _I_ personally would prefer a RWD over FWD in a small sporty sedan, but GM is between the proverbial rock and hard place.
If you buck the current trends and stay (lets say with Saab) with FWD, you’ll be criticized for not advancing. If you switch the 93 to a RWD platform, the Saab purists will criticize you for ‘further’ ruining the brand.
Hope it helps!
The key in my opinion is to offer options. It would seem that the Cobalt and Ion should remain FWD for all the reasons you mentioned. However, a well executed G4 RWD sedan and coupe would fit with Pontiac’s image.
Currently, Pontiacs vehicles do not top the class in fun to drive, even against brands that don’t proclaim it – such as Nissan, let alone Mazda. In GT form Pontiacs need to outhandle Mazdas. Currently, GT means power pedals and huge sunroofs. Make it mean class leading handling.
Take a look at the Lexus IS exterior, and imagine a sharply defined twin port grill. Standard 2.4L, GT optional 2.0 turbo, GXP 2.8 HF turbo.
Don’t go for “value” – for once break open a new segment. Shoot for 95% of the 325i at 70% of the cost. Let Chevy sell the value. Make an exciting car, and people will pay for it. Just make sure it has an AWD option and a backseat that can accomodate adults.
Definitely rear-wheel drive. There is simply nothing else that can match it for ability. Its hard to give a front-wheel drive car a performance image when all serious sports and race cars are rear wheel drive. Devices like traction control can give rear wheel drive cars improved capability in bad weather. Rear wheel drive has not been any deterrent to customers in recent years; Consider popular cars like the Ford Mustang and Chrysler 300C — successful models employing rear wheel drive.
I know that if I were making a buying choice between two cars of equal specifications, one front wheel drive and one real wheel, I would definitely choose the rear wheel drive car any day.
Front wheel drive may be fine and dandy for cars like Saabs, Cobalts and Monte Carlos (ugh) but let’s face it, how many times has Chevrolet considered making the Corvette front wheel drive? How’s that GTO front wheel drive prototype coming along?
What GM needs (desperately) is a small, affordable car with decent power, a slick 6 speed manual, a well tuned suspension and rear wheel drive to set the pace in that market segment, instead of just trying to keep up with the likes of the Acura RSX and Civic Si. If the current Cobalt SS were rear wheel drive, the waiting list would be huge.
I have owned a couple of “performance” cars that are front wheel drive (my 258hp 6 speed Acura TL included) and when the lease is up on my car I am returning to rear wheel drive for good. There is no substitute for a well balanced rear wheel drive chassis. Will GM fill that section of the market or will I have to go with a used BMW?
Rear-wheel drive with a v8 that is pretty much the only reason to shop domestic at this point and its what GM should go for. I have a 2004 cavalier and its a handy cheap car but it’s one not as fun as a rear wheel drive car and two drives much worse than any front wheel drive car I’ve ever driven. So instead of chasing other manufacturers down the front-wheel drive road where very few of your buyers even want to go GM may as well play to its strengths and heritage and go rear-wheel drive with an optional v8 in everything you build.
REAR DRIVE!!
I am a 23-year-old automotive enthusiast and member of the Philly region SCCA. I currently own an extensively modified Honda Civic that I autocross in the street modified class, and I love sport compacts. From the standpoint of pure driving dynamics, as far as any car with sporting intentions is concerned, I greatly prefer rear wheel drive; however, I also have no problem with changing to a set of snow tires for the winter.
The car I currently aspire to (and have long wished for) is your new Chevrolet Camaro, assuming you build it. I plan to buy one whenever it is finally produced. I also love your Solstice, but I’d wait for the rumored hard-top turbo version.
Properly tuned, a front wheel drive car can drive beautifully, and often times, at least as good as its rear drive counterparts. For a sporty car, though, I will only consider front drive if it is small (no bigger than your Cobalt), light (preferably below 2800 pounds) and equipped with a limited slip differential. I would also never pay any more than $25k for a front drive sports car.
My biggest problem with a front drive sports car is its inability to properly handle much more than 250hp and still handle well. The limits for rear drive are much higher across the board.
Incidentally, I’m not a big fan of all wheel drive; especially not as an alternative to rear wheel drive. The drive systems are heavy (lightness is very important to me), fuel economy suffers, and they also cover up much of the feedback the car’s chassis would otherwise be transmitting.
No problems with FWD. Would not have it any other way.
I’m from Edmonton Alberta and I have to say, I really like FWD, I’ve had to drive short wheel base RWD vehicles in the winter up here before and it’s not only not fun, it’s unsafe.
I would not likely buy a RWD car again, I could lean to AWD but only if it had a FWD bias of more than 50% when required.
I am a student at the University of Michigan-Ann Arbor and will be purchasing a sport-compact in two years. I’m a 19yr old male who considers himself a car enthusiast. Personally, for compact cars, I prefer fwd WITH THE OPTION OF ALL WHEEL DRIVE!!! For space, winter weather in the midwest, and the fact that the Camaro will be coming out, this is my desire. To be honest, as long as an AWD option occurs, I’m fine either way. But KEEP THE PRICE DOWN, if its cheaper to do fwd (source:delta) with awd option, do it. If its cheaper for rwd with an option for awd (source:kappa 2+2) then do it. Lastly, I really love that Cobalt SS-S/C you are producing, its an amazing car (I’ve ridden/driven it) and the supercharger is fantastic. Keep us updated.- Brian
I definately want to see more RWD drive vehicles. The performance just doesn’t seem to “be there” in FWD and cars have steadily gotten more boring since FWD became popular. I’d also like something that can perform well for UNDER $30K. With today’s technology in stability and traction aids RWD should also be able to perform well in the winter. Look at Europe and all the RWD Mercedes, BMW’s and Porsches running around in the snow.
I believe GM should be able to provide the “perfect car” to anyone who wants a car. That being said, I fail to wonder why in the world is this question being asked in the first place???
As an owner of a Saab, I fully understand the concept and experience of a “perfectly balanced FWD performance car.” I guess you can say Saab are “properly set up.” ANd always have been
There should be a set level of FWD competency in every single car GM makes. Cars like Cobalt or G6, while nice, aren’t always the most fun to “throw around.” Cars like the Mini Cooper and the Civic are.
It won’t matter if the next-gen “small car” is FWD, RWD or AWD. What matters to the younger generation is 1) style, 2) affordability, 3) fun to drive. If you don’t have that, then who cares?
Do what is smart… build a stylish and fun car that is both affordable and performs well. RWD/FWD/AWD doesn’t matter.
Front wheel drive is fine for most applications (especially in the snow belt). However, when it comes to performance, full size luxury, and ‘working’ vehicles (e.g. police cars) rear drive is the only way to go. Durability and lower cost and complexity are bonuses.
Sorry if this is a bit long winded. It’s been a hot topic amongst my friends.
It maybe more practical and even more competitive to be front wheel drive in loose traction situations, but in rear drive it’s way more fun. It’s like playing Asteriods for real. Controlling all those vectors is a real blast.
I’m personally not convinced that front drive is more competitive, all though some of the younger guys try to convince me of it. Ultimately they look at it from a price point. There is nothing rear drive that they can afford to drive. So they convince themselve that front drive is better. Why do you think the small truck market is popular? It’s certainly not because we need trucks, it’s just the only cheap rear-drive platform out there.
We REALLY NEED a bare bones, no frills, cheap, easy to mod rear drive platform. Maybe it wouldn’t be the top seller, maybe it’s not the most practical but MAN what it would do for the brand. It’s the tuners that are recommending cars and fixing them. If the tuner can drive a car from the brand they like, that’s the brand they will recommend for everything else. And all the tuners I know don’t have a ton of cash, unlike the Fast and the Furious misconception. Which is why the old beat-up Civics are being used for tuners. In my area the older 90s Cavaliears are becoming popular. And the mods they do are generally very cheap …. rims, K&N filters, muffler tips (uggg). But despite the fact that these mods hardly do anything, they are still really popular and guys like that are the guys doing the recommending.
I’ve just turned 30 and have a family and have to put family first. For this reason I can’t drop even $20,000 CDN on a toy. I have to think practical. But boy would I LOVE to have a toy to tinker with. I’ve been a car enthusiast forever and I do all the maintenance and repairs on pretty much everybodies’ cars that I know. They look to me for what they should be buying.
I think the Solitice is a cool concept, but the Chevy version is going to be out of my reach. And the Solitice is getting artificially inflated in price and very hard to get a hold of. We have the Optra around here, so I’ve given that some serious thought since it can be had for $15,000 or even less. That is bare bones. ABS is an option, the stereo is single DIN, air conditioning is an option. What’s there is for one purpose, driving.
All you need to produce is one inexpensive rear-drive model and you will have every tuners attention! The rest can all be front drives. For practicality the front drives are superior. More space and better everyday handling characteristics. So for every practical choice the Impalas, Malibus, Grand Prix and Grand Ams of the world are perfect just the way they are. We just need an inexpensive read-drive Camaro that us tuners can tinker with and you will make a lot of VERY happy people. Now, mind you, don’t go cheap on what you do put into it. Make sure you have a solid body and suspension so that any mods isn’t going to tear the car apart. My wife loves the Mustang and I’m almost convinced on it because it’s almost within my price range but if you build a Camaro with damm good style and a solid chasis underneath the rest of the bits just need to get the job done and allow us to do the tweaking and tuning after that.
My opinion is that you guys invented the aftermarket world, but you have completely alienated it. Your cars are complete off the show room floor leaving us no room to make mods and we end up paying for it too. Mods let us pay for the cool bits of hardware as we can afford it. A big purchase price leaves us with a big bill to justify and no fun left when we do manage to buy it.
George
Front wheel drive is definitely preferable. Just be sure to combine it with great handling. Think Civic or 3-Series as your handling target, Passat as your interior target, Civic as your drive layout target, and Civic or 3-Series as your styling target. PLEASE, don’t emmulate the 300C. And no pseudo-1970’s cars, please. Those were bad enough in the 1970’s. I have no desire to buy one. Fresh new designs, not recycled old designs, please.
I have to say that I always associated rear-wheel drive with performance but I recently bought a used ‘02 9-3 and it’s a blast to drive. With the right tires it’s even great in the snow.
The only problem is I don’t like the torque-steer when I step on it.
This is a daily driver; If I was going to buy a performance minded vehicle that was a second vehicle for sunny days, it would have to be rear wheel drive.
And age, I’m 24.
A rear drive Camaro,with a DEI engine,that would blow the doors off a roush or shelby mustang,would be a real show stopper,
RWD please.
the most enjoyable cars I ever drove- Mercury Villager, Miata, and 328i…2 out of 3 and RWD wins in my book. For steering feel- the RWD was clearly better in all cases. That is important to me as a young guy who likes to scare his girlfriends in the passenger seat. If y’all could also put in a bench seat in the next RWD car…that would help me immensely.
RWD (or AWD for certain models) for all V8s! FWD should only for small cars with small engines. Look at what Chrysler is doing! Oh yeah build the Camaro NOW!!!
I have a G6 GTP Sedan (manual). The engine is great, but the FWD totally saps all the fun out of driving it. Between torque steer and a low traction limit on acceleration, I’m almost exasperated. My previous car was a Chrysler 300C (bought it at 22 years old). I much prefer RWD, and snow traction was never a major issue.
For Saab, I think AWD would stay closer to the brand’s identity than RWD.
But for small sporty cars for other GM brands, RWD is definitely a wise move. It’s what I’m buying next. I hope GM has it, or it’s back to Chrysler.
Thank you for the question.
The simple answer is Saab needs to be Saab and stick with its roots. Front drive is good for Sweden, snow and Saab. Does that mean you can’t have rear drive? Of course not but your image is not to be confused with Pontiac or what it should be.
Saab is quite simply an addiction. These are some of the most beautiful cars in the world the trick is to get new people into your dealerships with something fresh.
Here is the problem. GM put all of its eggs in the front wheel drive basket. Japanese luxury brands did the opposite. This perception as always was to the imports favor. The actual problem is GM left another gaping hole in its line up which the imports kindly filled.
Here is where Saab and GM is still losing and I will use an analogy.
GM and Saab always wear too much of yesterdays make-up. Honda and Toyota have perfected the art of finesse-the annual dress. As we speak the Sienna and Pilot have received subtle changes to their front facias that give these products just enouph new make up to make them look revived and restored, refreshed and renewed. Not a billion dollar makeover but enouph that many will see these vehicles in a new light.
Saab can’t wait and sometimes does not need a billion dollar makeover, just new makeup and a new dress every once in a while.
GM does not need to tear apart Saab or the La Crosse nor does it have to wait five years to make them look new. Just learn to finesse and Saab, you need to do it too. Your thinking too hard it’s this simple
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Yesterday’s dress will no longer impress.
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The Colbolt supposed to replace the Cavalier and the 400,000 Sunfires and Aleros on the road. Now that we are down from three to one will they should finesse it every year. It’s carrying the weight of three modles. Okay we know the car is a hot shot it does not need a $1 billion makeover, but it can not wait three years and get old either.
GM, Saab you need to do more finessing, every two years at least, on your high volume cars especially. Now that many of your products are the best in their class, just change the grill and head lights on the G6 next year for example to keep it fresh.
Then three years from now when the rear drive Solstice 4 door comes out it will be ready to blast off when it’s ready to replace the million G6’s on the road. GM you got to finesse, you need the new dress.
Don’t forget to finesse.
We’re specifically discussing SAAB here, right? SAAB has never sold a model meant to be a street racer. Off road racing, yes (for which AWD would be optimal). Two of SAAB’s core values are fuel economy and environmentalism. The added weight of an AWD setup reduces fuel economy but is preferable to FWD in some applications.
I would suggest FWD with an AWD option in all models. In performance-oriented models (such as a successor to the Viggen or a high-powered BioPower model) with high hp/torque output I would exclusively go with AWD to transfer that power to the pavement. Torque steer tends to be a problem in these FWD applications.
If front wheel drive is tradition at Saab, keep it. I like the idea of a RWD car from Saab, but would never be able to afford one anytime soon. As for other makes by GM, RWD all the way, but you gotta keep FWD too on some models.
Awsome job on the Camaro, hope it gets out faster than I can hope for!!!!
Well, I don’t suppose I’m typical, but I’m not buying anymore front wheel drive vehicles.
I’ve replaced one too many CV joints, and FWD cars are actually not all that good in snow if you’re going uphill and lose traction.
I have a used diesel RWD car now, and that’s what I’ll be looking for next time I buy a new car.
To compete you need a mix. Just look at the following of BMW, Mercedes, etc.
For DOMESTIC use it is darn hard to beat the FWD. It used to not be as reliable and very expensive to repair, but they seem to have this largely solved now — granted I also favour either strong factory warranties, and/or well price add on warranties like Toyota has.
RWD is better for trucks and larger vehicles (or race cars).
I’m a 19 year old male, I live in NY, and I have never driven a RWD car, but I assume that I would prefer it over FWD. All the video games I played growing up were in RWD race cars, so I’d love to have a car similar to the virtual ones I have raced and crashed. I agree with many others on here that the “performance” cars should be RWD while the others should be FWD. The lack of RWD in models such as the Grand Prix and the Monte Carlo just make those cars somewhat “fake” in my opinion. The Grand Prix looks like a performance car with RWD, but it doesn’t. The Monte Carlo is linked to NASCAR, but it doesn’t have RWD either. The race cars I’ve always seen growing up were RWD, so I would like to see true, practical, affordable, RWD performance cars in the GM lineup.
I am a young car buyer. GM needs RWD to stay alive. I will not buy a FWD car. I don’t care about a tunnel dividing the rear legroom. Can you imagine a FWD porsche? I am the market for the new Colbalt SS, but I don’t care about it. Why? FWD. RWD makes all the difference in the world. Think about any GM car that there has gained a really passionate following. Is it FWD or RWD? If GM wants to make a sports car to compete for todays young car market, it needs to be RWD, well balanced, lightweight, and have an avaliable turbo engine. Not some screw-type blower either. Turbo engines aren’t just more efficient, they push the aftermarket and build the reputation of the car. Look at the success of cars powered by the SR20DET or the RB26DETT, the 3SGTE, the 4G63, the F20C (F22C), all legendary engines. I want GM to make a car with an engine like that. Also, think about the layouts of the cars those engines rest in. AWD, RWD. The cobalt SS can’t really be taken seriously when compared to those vehicles. How about Mid Engine? Who offers that (besides certain germans for $50K)? My generation knows about cars. They know about them in a different way though. We know less about CID and more about CM^3. We less about boring and stroking and more about Volumetric Efficiency. Take heed. We’re a bigger market than you think. GM needs to contend. A new Camaro is a great thing for older guys who have a lot of money to spend and want a big heavy car with a big engine, but I don’t. All of the foreign automakers (perhaps honda aside, but they obviously get the light and efficient thing) and even chrysler and ford are getting that RWD is back. At the end of the day, FWD sucks. If you want people to buy cars, make them fun. RWD is fun.
At Saab, there is a long and storied tradition of fast, reliable rally cars. These cars fed significant power through the front wheels and yet remained stable and entertaining to drive, which proved particularly important in long-distance races.
so how about making that new Z06 FWD?
I know I go rallying all the time… especially in my saab…
I don’t understand why GM thinks RWD is important in high dollar cars (car?) but not in tuneable sport compacts. Like those people don’t know the difference…
RWD and AWD. If GM does not utilise a large RWD platform soon, what will they have to compete with the Chrysler LX cars? An FWD Impala SS? I think not.
RWD seems more popular for large/midsize cars, though it is cool in the Sky and Solstice. A compact RWD sedan/coupe would fit in as a Pontiac ONLY car. I’m a Chevy fan but I’d like Pontiac to be more unique. Keep the G6 as a FWD volume seller though otherwise the dealers would kill you.
Pontiac- Small/Mid/Large RWD
(some FWD aka G6,Torrent)
Chevy- Small/Midsize FWD (Aveo,Cobalt,Malibu)
Midsize/Large RWD
(Camaro,Monte,Impala)
Otherwise just work on Mid to Large RWD cars and improving the FWD compact cars you already have.
Especially the Ion, I mean Saturn was founded with a compact FWD car and all their new products are either RWD (Sky) or Midsize (Aura,Outlook). Though don’t just remake an Opel Astra as a Saturn. Let Saturn develop a class leading FWD compact car that is unique, yet not weird (Ion). That is their most important model. Not only does it bring in first-time buyers, it also brings in the people who bought the first Saturns.
Informally speaking, Yes, GM would do good to have RWD compact car that doesn’t break the bank at the car lot or when the insurance bill comes in. 200-250hp out of a DOHC V6 (ShortStar?) would be a good start…turbos would be a nice upgrade option. Let Saab do what they want, but Pontiac should have done this with the G6.
What everyone here seems to be forgetting (or not knowing in the first place) is that safety is the number one important thing for a Saab! Saab should be FWD or AWD. The day Saab makes a rear wheel drive car is the day I no longer want a new Saab.
First off, I’m a 17 year old male who is fanatical about Pontiac and have been for most of my life. I currently own a 95 Grand Am GT with the Quad4 and a 5spd. It has experienced critical engine complications and didn’t think it was worth fixing. It hasn’t been that great of a car. Therefore, I am currently in the market for another vehicle. As I scanned my choices, only one car stood out, the Nissan 240SX for its RWD layout. As much as I wanted another Pontiac, I couldn’t justify choosing FWD over RWD. I live in PA, by the way, and usually experience snow from late November to early March. Had Pontiac come out with a compact coupe with RWD during the ’90s, I could easily say that I’d own another Pontiac.
Obviously, I am for RWD. While I respect FWD and have had some fun in my Grand Am, the benefits of RWD are far greater than those of FWD, especially for supposedly sporty vehicle.
My wish is for Pontiac to one day consist of nothing but RWD vehicles. Styling would be sexy, sleek, and thoroughly modern designs that are not afraid to be aggressive and soulful (unlike the G6 which is quite bland). My proposal:
-Grand Am would be the compact coupe, sedan, 5dr hatch, and conv at about 2900lbs. The SE would receive a 2.4L Ecotec with D.I. and a 5spd manual/auto. The GT would receive a High Output verson of the 2.4L Ecotec with D.I. and a 6spd manual/5spd auto.The GXP would receive a detuned version of the Solstice GXP’s turbocharged Ecotec with D.I. and 6spd manual/auto. The coupe and conv would seat 4 while the sedan and hatch would seat 5. AWD would be optional on all trims. Pricing would ideally start around $16k.
-Grand Prix would be the midsize coupe, conv and sedan at about 3200lbs. The SE would recieve a H.O. 2.4L Ecotoc with D.I. and 5spd manual/auto. The GT would receive a 2.8L V6 with D.I. and 6spd manual/auto. The GXP would receive a turbocharged 2.8L V6 with D.I. and a 6spd manual/auto. The coupe and conv would seat 4, the sedan would seat 5. AWD would be optional on all trims. Pricing would ideally start around $20K.
-LeMans would be the fullsize sedan and wagon at about 3600lbs . SE would receive a 3.6L V6 with D.I. and 6spd manual/auto. GT would receive a Northstar 4.4L V8 and 6spd manual/atuo. GXP would receive a turbocharged Northstar 4.4L and 6spd manual/auto. It would seat 5 and AWD would be an option for each trim. Pricing would ideally start around $26k.
-GTO would be based off the Grand Prix with a coupe and conv. Base engine would be an LS2 V8 and a 6spd manual/auto. Optional engine would a High Output version of the LS2 V8 and a 6spd manual. It would seat 4 and pricing would start at around $28k.
-Torrent crossover would be based off the the Grand Prix’s midsize platform. SE would receive the 3.6L V6 and a 6spd manual/auto. GT would receive the 4.4L Northstar V8 and a 6spd manual/auto. It would seat 5 and have standard AWD. Pricing would start around $25k.
That’s my dream, however unlikely it may be. I feel going that route would find success for Pontiac and surely make enthusiasts happy. If atleast a RWD compact makes it to market someday, you have a buyer right here.
The GM Holden Torana Concept Car shown at the Australian Auto show in 2004 is a perfect example of what’s missing and needed in the GM line-up world wide.
This kind of car would be aimed at the large world-wide market that now belongs to the BMW 3-series & Lexus IS.
RWD with today’s traction control technology is a much better & more rewarding setup than FWD. It also affords sportier proportions and street cred.
AWD needs to be applied VERY carefully. In most segments AWD will NOT sell. AWD adds weight, cost and reduces fuel economy. It is also an ‘invisible’ feature the customer cant touch or fully appreciate. They simply wont pay any extra for it!
I would vote for RWD in small/med aspirational sports luxury segments. FWD for economy/comfort segments.
As for Saab – i don’t know what to think. There is no direction for this brand. Where does it sit relative to the other GM brands?
If it is to stack up against the best of the European brands, then clearly Saabs should ride on RWD platforms.
Saab needs a hot aspirational concept car (like the camaro for chevy) to clearly define their direction.
An interesting question, and one that can be debated endlessly, as I can see being done so here. But it seems to me that the phrasing of the question does very little to hide the author’s own bias. What about a similar paragraph or two devoted to singing RWD and AWD’s praises?
To that end, I do agree that FWD is a better option for compact and sub-compact cars, with exceptions of course.
I don’t see the market supporting an AWD Camaro, so I would suggest positioning the next generation GTO as a world class AWD 400HP sophisticated monster available for about $40K to $45K. There is a big gap between the Corvette and the $30K sports cars that needs to be filled with some American attitude. Don’t follow the trends. Create them.
SAAB is traditionally a Front-engined, front wheel drive car. Two or four doors and a hatchback, a slightly underpower engine under the hood coupled to a tall-geared transmission. (Unless it’s a turbo, then the gears a matched perfectly) The interior is roomy, with nice tall-back chairs covered in buttery soft leather. The Dash is fully-instrumented and curvey. And there are tiny wipers for the headlights.
I don’t know why GM has been makign SAABs as they are now, but they medicore. A fully restored 900 is far preferable to anythign you can find on the showroom floor today.
I have often read this blog, but never bothered to comment. This particular entry intrigues me however.
RWD is popular among younger car buyers because it has a longer, more relevant history in motorsports than FWD and younger crowds like sporty cars. This has become INFINITELY more relevant because DRIFTING is now immensely popular among the younger demographics, and DRIFTING requires RWD. The connection is pretty obvious.
Similarly obvious though, is that not all younger buyers like drifting, and those who do don’t necessarily want to do it themselves. Therefore a mass shift of focus to RWD for entry level cars is unwarranted.
Also consider then, that the remainder of the younger market is most likely to be made up of enthusiasts.
However, appealing to these enthusiasts with a small sporty RWD car that they can actually afford helps GM in many ways, short term and long term.
It sells small, sporty RWD cars to car enthusiasts, if the product is quality, then it improves GMs reputation with enthusiasts.
When the non-car enthusiasts ask their enthusiast friends about buying a new car, these enthusiasts then hold GM in a higher view and therefore are more likely to recommend a GM purchase, RWD or otherwise. This in turn helps to convince the general public that GM no longer makes the poor quality cars that are so often seasoned with rebates and incentives.
Word of Mouth advertisement is a powerful thing.
To that end:
The following features are appealling to the next generation of car buyers.
DOHC
VVT
Coupes
Forced induction
RWD
Manual Transmission
AFFORDABLE
GM’s current line up of small, affordable RWD coupes with available forced induction is seriously lacking.
For that matter, there are few, if any car makers that offer a compact, affordable RWD car, aside from roadsters which are impractical more often than not. This is a neglected segment that GM needs to claim control of first.
If you want to sell/appeal to younger crowds, do this:
Make a sporty, compact, RWD coupe.
Think Nissan 240sx meets BMW 3 series.
To save developement costs with less brand overlap, make a RWD sedan versoin of this car for a different brand.
The coupe needs to seat 4, but not necessarily comfortably.
NO V8. People who really want a v8 in this car will install it themselves, saving GM the developement costs for an option that carries too many gas guzzling characteristics to be a popular selection for the target market.
NO OHV. Young people view this as ancient technology.
6 cylinders at the maximum, but a I4 with a optional turbo/supercharger would be ideal. RWD ECOTEC is a good start and is already engineered for the Solstice/Sky. Even among Die-Hard import fans, the ECOTEC carries respect and credibility, just not so much with the cars they tend to propel. A car such as I am describing create a few converts.
NO PLASTIC ENGINE COVER. These are a waste of money.
A 6 speed manual would help, but a 5 speed will suffice
An optional paddle shift automatic might make a few sales
IRS is not necessary…
Solstice/Sky underpinnings would be a good start.
A simple interior is a must (very symetrical design for easy Left hand drive/Right hand drive swap.DON’T go too cheap on the materials,
Keep in mind that many young people will want to add their own audio equipment (subwoofers, etc…) so leave room for these items, but don’t waste money too on the stock sound system.
Saturn style rear hinged doors would be ideal, but keep a traditional 2 door on hand just in case (see “Saturn Ion/Chevy Cobalt”)
Offer an array of spoilers and hood styles (ram air, cowl, etc), Optional Striping packages wouldn’t hurt either.
Base model MUST cost less than $19,000.
Fully loaded model must NOT cost more than $27,000
When it comes time for the next generation of this platform, make it slightly larger all around. mid/late 90’s Chevy Malibu size would be a good guideline. Offer any form of 6 cyl. engine with forced induction. label it the Buick GNX. Do NOT use RETRO styling cues for this Buick. This will vastly improve Buicks image with younger crowds, hence keeping Buick profitable when it’s existing fanbase dies out.
If you found this comment to be helpful, and if you want to keep your cars interesting (and selling) for future generations, I would be happy to work for you and to help make sure your product stays competitive.
Seriously. Send me information.
GM already makes a ga-zillion RWD vehicles every year. They’re called TRUCKS! ‘Nuff said.
I’m going to go against the flow here. I say front drive is still best for most drivers, in most situations, in most of the country. Street dragging stoplight derby junkies will like rear-wheel drive for the traction advantage during the pronounced rearward weight transfer on takeoff. But MOST people don’t drive like that!
I think the FWD understeer versus RWD oversteer arguments are specious these days because today’s chassis engineers can build excellent handling with either. RWD BMW 3 series are outstanding, but so are FWD Audi A4s. And with the ever more common electronic stability control enabled, it is often very hard or impossible to tell WHICH end is pulling or pushing the car.
On smooth dry pavement, that is. But people forget that the whole country is not Florida, Texas and California, no matter how big they are or how many electoral votes they hold. A lot of this country is like Wisconsin, with frost heaved, potholed roads – most of them rural – and much of the year covered in snow and/or ice. It is POSSIBLE to control a rear-wheel-drive car on ice, but MOST drivers – even in Wisconsin – have received NO training in how to do so. They tend to do what comes intuitively, which is often precisely the OPPOSITE of what they should do, so they end up in the ditch. Indeed, the 4WD SUV drivers are often the worst!
Front wheel drive is much easier to drive on “iffy” surfaces. Misjudge one’s speed and the car will tend to understeer. If it is not too bad, correcting with more steering is the solution. If speed is definitely too hot, getting off the throttle – a natural and intuitive behavior – will tend to bring the rear end around.
Rear wheel drive, however, requires just the opposite behaviors in slippery conditions. Getting off the throttle will usually cause sudden oversteer, for which the modestly skilled average driver will over-correct, sending him or her a**-first into the ditch.
In a spin, throttle and steering can almost always pull a FWD car straight. RWD is trickier; throttle and steering will almost always make a spin WORSE!
As for all-wheel drive, its only advantage for most people is traction on slippery roads, especially in hilly country. But for most, the extra weight, complexity, fuel consumption and cost are not worth it.
To sum up, on good pavement, in good weather, a skilled driver can do better with rear wheel drive. But that is an ideal situation that in real life is uncommon. Most drivers are NOT that skilled. And most roads in the U.S. are dilapidated and getting worse. And there are too many places in the U.S. where the weather really sucks a substantial portion of the year.
In real-world, mostly crappy conditions FWD is best all around for its predictability and stability, coupled with relatively low weight, complexity and cost. AWD is for people in more extreme conditions (like really bad weather, road or rally racing) who are willing to pay the cost. Performance isn’t ALL about straight-line pavement-ripping acceleration. For driving really fast on the “twisty bits,” I find FWD throttle steering to be easier and more predictable than with rear wheel drive.
Logically, I only see two real advantages to rear wheel drive – hard, straight-line acceleration; i.e. drag or street racing. Or parking lot power oversteer “doughnut” tourneys. All these are behaviors that are sophomoric at best (unbefitting anyone past the mental age of 15), and at worst can get one in jail or in the coroner’s office. Beyond this, it’s just a terrible waste of perfectly good rubber, and at $150-$200 per tire, I can’t afford it! There is no real logic behind those who beckon for rear wheel drive. Old muscle car devotees and other traditionalists want rear wheel drive because… well… just BECAUSE!! God intended that cars be made that way!
And don’t mention torque steer! A well-engineered modern FWD car shows virtually no trace of it. My own Jetta, with 220 horsepower through the front wheels torque steers NOT ONE IOTA! Remarkably, the new Impala front driver with the small-block V-8 doesn’t torque steer either!
Make rear wheel drive for people who insist on having it, but it is not the best thing for the majority. Most people just want safe, predictable handling on the roads THEY drive, regardless of which end is driving the car.
[As I write this, it is snowing - a good 5 inches so far. On my way home, I motored by, cautiously but confidently, in my "weenie" FWD Jetta VR6 while my idiot neighbor down the street was futilely struggling for a running start to get his monstrous, butt-ugly Chrysler 300 Hemi up the slight incline without spinning the car around and bashing the parked cars on either side. Welcome to MY world! Rear wheel drive, my a**!]
I live in Finland so RWD is out of the question because of the long winter. Of course RWD can be hazardous in summer wet too, ESP or not.
Personally I feel that RWD should be only used in supercars.
Problem of AWD is, that it can go 4-wheel slide, without warning if you go too fast and then you are in trouble.
With FWD is quite rare that both ends of the car would loose contact at the same time, it’s always rear or front and situation is fixable.
Other problems of AWD are extra cost and weight, that are correlated. And not forgetting extra fuel consumption.
Where is the balance between exotic materials and price?
Saab should get AWD option for its top models and I say option because quite many Saabist have no problem what so ever with torque steering.
From that we get into biggest design/engineering problem of Saab. USA vs Europe, they want totally different cars!
Your question:
“should we work toward fun-to-drive front-drive or is rear-drive with all-wheel drive a better solution?”
Is very very tricky one, because only you know real difference of them with what ever car you are engineering.
What would be the laptime difference of them? What would be the weight of AWD?
Me as a future customer has to know these specs.
But with small cars, RWD is idiotic from my point of view.
If you have to ask if rear or front is better, and if you don’t know what customers want … no wonder GM is loosing their shirts.
Rear wheel drive and 50/50 weight balance is the reason I’ve had 2 BMWs now. And I grew up in a GM household. However you make nothing for me. The closest you’ve come is the Pontiac Solistic … however you gave it no power.
Oh and you turned the GTO into a giant Grand Am. Please do everyone a favor and make the new Camaro … make it just like the concept … and put a great engine in it. When I mean great … I mean NO pushrods. Lets get a modern engine under the hood.
And while your at it improve your interiors … I am still disapointed by your latest work in the Corvette and Solstice.
Make the car RWD. Higher some people that can design a decent looking car. Get the engineers to produce an interior that doesn’t feel like cheap garbage and then I might look at a GM vehicle.
The drive configuration that you choose is model dependent.
FWD for the forthcoming (?)
Camaro Р¡ No way, José !
RWD for the econobox crowd -
¬° Ditto !
It all comes down to your starting to practice the currently successful manufacturing/marketing dogma that has made your Far Eastern competition what it is today, ‘ What do they want and why do they want it.’
Continue to ignore that at your own peril.
Allen McDonald, El Galloviejo ®
Tejano, Tico, Chircano Adoptado
I think it depends on the application. In a small, low-budget car, I would give the nod to fwd, as it provides more interior-space.
When it comes to performance-cars, though, rwd or awd are my favorites. I also really can’t understand the bad-weather advantages that are so often cited for fwd cars. I think it’s right the contrary. Whenever it rains, my front-tires spin like h**l once I hit my accelertor pedal a little too strongly. I know, in extreme situations like snow and ice, fwd cars are said to be easier to drive, but in these cases, traction control tame a rwd car to acceptable levels without any significant loss in driving pleasure under better conditions.
On the other hand, erasing the shortcomings of fwd like torque-steer always means watering down the information that’s sent through the steering wheel.
So for me, rwd is the clear winner in any performance application.
MUTE POINT!! IT DOESN’T MATTER AT ALL!!.
Because whichever it is, GM will make the car with your characteristic, irritating, numb/vaugue steering, floppy suspension with the struts lasting 40k miles, and the overall sloppy-nervous road feel.
And guess what?! You don’t need to loop the Nurburgring track in Germany 999 times to figure it out! I can tell if the car “has it” on a five minute trip to Wal-Mart.
This has been a criticism of GM for decades in nearly every enthusiast magazine test report. You don’t get my cash because of it.
But of course, ‘Your are GM; you know better, don’t you?’ You will you say: “If it doesn’t increase our JD Power score, we won’t do it!” Or you will say: “If we can’t get X-more units sold, we won’t do it!” Or you will say: “If we can’t make it globally-common, we won’t do it!” Or you will say it costs $1.25 too much per car.
Well, you guys simply don’t get it, period.
Why not use FWD and limit turbo pressure in gear 1-3?
Saab is not about 0-60 it is about high torque at low revs – at least here in Europe
And now imagine Saab with a V8 3,5l
As a Saab-driver who started his Saab career in 1973 and has driven up to now 7 Saab and now ordered the 8th (9-3 SS), my opinion is:
Front-wheel drive as the special feature of this brand and based on its history.
AWD (9-3 or a smaler model)only in such cases where the marketing-group can firmly foresee a safe winning situation.
saabaudi(Germany)
The important thing is to remember that Saab is a Scandinavian car – and should be able to sell well not only in the US. If you loose the hardcore Saab-community, you loose some very important ambassadors for the marque. A rwd-Saab will never be accepted as a real Saab by these. At the same time a lot of people are interested in rwd – to please everyone, the obvious choice is to go with fwd, with awd as an option. To add awd to the current 9-3 would be very clever. I have talked to a lot of people who are saying things like “yeah, it’s a really nice car, but I want awd…”. 29 year old airline-pilot, living in Norway.
FWD for family cars.
AWD for luxury cars, WRX type cars and car based suvs.
RWD for coupes.
FWD vs RWD?
I’m a severe car enthusiest but also a pragmatist. As a pragmitist, I want a for FWD for the all the obvious reasons. I will always have a FWD car.
But as an enthusiest, I want a lightweight, high power, RWD car for all the obvious reasons. I will always have a RWD car. But please, leave live axles for tractors, trucks, and antiques.
The lack of RWD (or a RWD biased AWD system) is the ONLY thing keeping me from seriously considering SAAB in any of my automotive purchases.
Well Jack, it appears you want me to say RWD. Personally, I own an Acura RL and wouldn’t buy a rear wheel drive car if my life depended on it. Performance? Yea, if I am going to a drag strip. I owned an SHO when they first came out and the torque steer was surely noticable but that was when I wanted to go zero to sixty in …… against the law.
GM should take lessons from its competitors. AWD for luxury and those who demand performance and FWD for all other. The cost and downside in poor climate conditions are just too negative. That is, unless it’s a Vette or Camaro. The purists would say RWD. I would actually argue AWD.
Only a quick one, apparently you favor FWD. It is fairly apparent. Everything depends on what you want to do with it. the Toronado (Olds) was a large V8 FWD and extremely nice. In a day when RWD was about the only option. i have driven mostly FWD for many years, but the RWD van that I drive stinks in the snow and marginal traction. If set up correctly, either system will work. But then I am a performance BIKE nut and cars are pretty much a utilitarian tool for me. I like hammers for example, but I don’t go crazy over the technical aspects of them! I just buy them, use them and let them rust in their box until I need them again.
i don’t think I have EVER washed my GMC 1 ton! why? it is a cargo hauler, not a fashion statement!
mark
I agree with the fact that some front-wheel drive cars can be fun to drive, although I’ve only driven two: the Hyundai Tiburon and Mini Cooper S. You know why? There’s not (really) enough power to overwhelm the front wheels. In an SRT-4, ION Redline, Cobalt SS, Eclipse GT, et al, there’s just faaaar too much power.
Even Honda is starting to put too much power in the new Civics.
I’m 22, and the allure of RWD is just too much. I’ve driven the Solstice, and the combination of a good RWD chassis and Ecotec power should have made it perfect…but it’s not. It just feels unsorted. And the new Miata feels too pointy – especially in the wet.
What young enthusiasts have been craving is a Scion tC, Tiburon, or E30 BMW-sized car that has RWD and is fun to drive.
Not a boy-racer car; something that can be driven to work everyday, and with a tire-swap can be ready for lapping at the local track.
That’s the formula GM should be following. Don’t make it like a Solstice, and something like that Nomad concept is probably too small.
Just tell your designers and engineers to do a BMW from 16 years ago, and it should work out fine. Do a 140hp base model and 170hp SS model. Make it lean, clean-looking, and simple to drive. And offer a track-ready wheel-and-tire package that can be installed and uninstalled inexpensively by your dealers.
And please, call it the Le Mans. Or Grand Prix. It’d help you win the WTCC, too…
Just like ///mach3 said, balance is key. And for $*@#! sake, allow the OnStar to be disabled when people get to the track.
So here are my credentials as a GM owner. In my garage right now are the following GM vehicles:
Along with this current list we’ve also owned a 1992 Chevy S-10 pickup (bought new), a 1996 Buick Skylark (bought new), and a 2000 Monte Carlo SS (bought used in 2003).
Of all the cars I’ve owned only the Olds. Alero seemed to fit the front wheel drive platform. And even that, I think, would be a better rear wheel drive car. I loved the Monte Carlo’s exterior design, I really thought it was great but, it was a real dog when it came to the drivetrain. The same could be said for the Buick Skylark. For very small/sub compact cars, front wheel drive feels like a good platform (Cobalt, Malibu, Aveo, G6). For everything else I think rear wheel drive is just a better platform for ride and comfort. In my opinion the Impala, Monte Carlo, Lucerne, and Grand Prix should all be rear wheel drive platforms.
Tony
FWD is the way to go with Saab. The brand is already getting devalued by badge engineering, so tossing-in a Chevy Caprice platform could kill it.
The problem with the perception of FWD in North America is that we never get the truly good FWD cars over here (other than Saab and some Honda’s). GM’s other FWD cars drive like rental cars, which most of them end-up being anyways.
No wonder “young buyers” who read a GM blog prefer RWD, they’ve only driven the very worst that FWD can offer. An afternoon in a Peugeot on a twisty road would have them singing a different tune.
GM should try to finally get FWD done right. If that means letting the Saab engineers call the shots, more power to them.
While my preference is for RWD and/or AWD, I would make one request: if you go with RWD, please provide a limited-slip differential as an option (or standard!!). The performance-oriented crowd prefers this, but LSD makes the cars more palatable to those of us that live in snowy areas.
How many FWD vehicles do BMW & MB make?
If Saab wants the 9-3 to seriously compete against the 3 & C they’ve got to start with the basics. RWD is part of the basics.
I sold my FWD 900 Turbo and am on my second 3er as Saab has had little to compete with BMW. Saab isn’t competing in the manner that they should be. RWD with optional AWD is the way BMW & MB are doing it. Follow the leaders.
After test driving the Ion Redline (the Cobalt SS was not out yet) and a Dodge Neon SRT-4, I bought a Mustang GT. That should answer your question. GM lost my business. Your loss, not mine.
I’d fully agree that front-wheel drive cars can be rewarding when properly set up, and that there are attendant advantages of front-wheel drive. Like all solutions, there are advantages and disadvantages; the rear-wheel drive platform is regaining popularity as the younger audience appreciates that marques like BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Ferrari et.al., never went to a front-wheel drive platform, and didn’t compromise in key areas of performance. Domestic front-wheel drive offerings–not just GM’s– generally suffer from terminal understeer, making the key “fun to drive” feature one that’s only available if you’re willing (and able) to properly modify the car.
Notably, though Saab had a long, storied tradition of fast, reliable rally cars, there hasn’t been a world champion Saab in well over 30 years; the inherent advantage of all-wheel drive has been exploited to a high level of competence in that arena by other manufacturers. Saab has been notable by its absence. Truthfully, it’s hard to figure what the Saab brand strategy is. The traditional Saab buyer–who had one of the only front-wheel drive cars around in the 60’s -is now faced with a 9-2 that’s really a Subaru, and a 9-7 that’s really a Tahoe. Neither has enough time in the lineup to have established residual values that will inspire. That leaves a 9-3 and a 9-5 that are hard to distinguish from each other, much less provide a benchmark that the 3/5-series, C/E-class, or A4/A6 buyer would be willing to look at.
I think we also need to distinguish whether you are referring to RWD vs FWD in general, or for Saab. In general, I would say that development of a RWD/AWD platform should take priority, though even if you start now you’ll still be years behind the competition. From a Saab perspective, the likelihood of generating enough sales from Trollhattan to operate profitably is slim indeed–shop it to a European buyer.
That’s only one opinion, but it’s an honest one. These are times when sugar-coating it just won’t help.
I said my bit on drivetrains and I’ve mostly given up hope of ever seeing a dynamically attractive vehicle from GM, but good god do yourselves a favor and improve your interiors. They are the cheapest looking, least intriguing and most embarassingly dated interiors in the business. There is no word short of “terrible” that can be used to accurately describe the interior ambiance of virtually all GM products.
I will keep the comment very short and to the point: RWD > FWD, for performance applications.
I cannot speak for anyone else, but my wife and I would never buy a FWD car if we were looking for performance. Last time we were looking for performance, we got a Trans Am. And still have it.
I want maximum interior space. No hump cramping my legs.
You know what they say, “once you go front, you never go back.”
I really cannot add much more than what has been written. It just amazes me how people would prefer FWD. Maybe it is a generation thing. I grew up with RWD and therefore enjoy driving RWD. FWD came about during the 70’s energy crisis. They are cheaper to make and lighter. With computer control and such there really is not much difference any more. The only argument for RWD now is towing. I do not believe you can make FWD work for heavy towing.
Without a doubt RWD and AWD. Torque steer has always been a limiting factor with FWD Saabs.
RWD is the only way to go period. I’m 39 and I live in Maine (lots of snow). I have never owned a FWD car and I will never buy a FWD car. I have driven rental cars that are FWD and I do not like them. It is easier to drive in the snow when you can steer the car with the throttle versus a car that plows with too much understeer.
Dear Sirs:
My family has been selling Chevrolet’s since 1931. I’m 32 and my first several cars were B and G bodies. I loved those cars, but when I got my first H body at the age of 21 that was the end of wanting RWD for my every day car.
The Impala is our best selling car and if we could have just 1 GM vehicle to sell it would be the FWD Impala, period. The first question out of most customers mouths is “this is FWD right?” We say yes and they say good, because I’m NEVER going to have another RWD again. Even with traction control RWD isn’t as good in the snow as a regular FWD. When you start adding traction control and AWD you are increasing 1. the manufacturing cost and 2. the long term maintaince cost.
The net result of a RWD Impala would be FEWER retail sales. Add AWD to it and the car becomes too expensive as would many of the smaller cars. There is a place for RWD and AWD, but the core has to be FWD due to cost and interior room. Bold design is why the 300 does so well, I would bet they would sell just as many if they had made it FWD.
Keep your core cars (esp. the Impala) FWD and build the Camaro and Chevrolet SS concepts RWD and you’ll most likely have a net increase of 200,000-250,000 units.
Mike Murphy
It seems some people think RWD is inherently bad in the winter. I think the issue is that most younger drivers learned to drive on FWD cars. I did not, and a RWD car with proper snow tires can be effective in winter. Yes AWD is better in snow, but for me I will always prefer RWD and my next car will be RWD. I hope GM will have a car for me, i.e. under 30k and fun to drive. If not I’ll look elsewere.
The new CAMARO – just build it – RWD -
Now for us PONTIAC FIREBIRD / TRANS-AM fans – change the front and rear ends,paint them red and make them all T-TOPS !!!!!!!
The space efficiency argument for FWD pretty much went out the window once Detroit finally discovered IRS.
Though it is amazing how space efficent the Cobalt’s and 9-3’s FWD architectures are.
I don’t even know why this is an issue. FWD works fine for people movers, but not for performance. Look at all of GM’s ‘halo’ cars – C6, Solstice, GTO…all RWD. If GM put a little C6 or Solstice in every performance car it made, now that would be something. This is from a pure marketing perspective, not even considering the performance advantages.
GM definitely needs more RWD cars. I’m 63 and I drive a BMW 3 series. I bought it because it simply drives better than other cars of its size (at least in 2000 when I bought it). Now with several competitors (Infiniti G35, Lexus IS, Cadillac CTS) present I’m not sure I would buy one again. It’s not a status thing, for now I hear that Hyundai will be coming out with a RWD sports sedan. I would strongly consider one; I know the price will be right. My only problem with the CTS is the price. If Buick or Pontiac put out their version of a RWD sports sedan I would strongly consider one of those also. It seems strange that most Pontiac models are positioned to the sports sedan part of the market, and should all be RWD in my opinion. Look at the success of the Chrysler 300.
With modern traction control systems, rear wheel drive is the only way to go. I’m 31 and most of the cars I would consider buying (actually, almost all of the cars I’d consider buying), are rear wheel drive. My wife’s IS300 Sport Cross – incredible car. The 3-Series BMW, the Ford Mustang and Chrysler 300C, and of course the CTS Caddy.
Let’s face it, front wheel drive is cheaper to manufacture, and that’s why GM converted everything over in the 80s- trying to follow the Japanese. It was a gimmick to make more profit, period. While I do believe fwd has it’s place on compact cars and perhaps family sedans like the Malibu, rear wheel drive is the only way to get incredible performance and handling. You don’t see BMW and Mercedes going this way, do you? And they’re the “benchmark” that most companies like Lexus and Infiniti are targeting. Even you guys converted back to rwd with the new Cadillac line-up. Car people know it, and GM knows it – performance and fun to drive factor – go with rear drive. And as far as packaging is concerned, check out the BMW 5 and 7 Series if you don’t think you can have legroom in a rear drive car, those cars are both VERY roomy. Oh, and they handle awesome, drive awesome and look awesome (you don’t need long overhangs in the front, you can tuck the wheels out). So my vote – the new Camaro and the new “performance” sedans from Pontiac and Buick better be rwd like the Mustang and 300C, or you better just not come out with anything at all. If the new Lucerne was a scaled back Cadillac STS for the same price that you charge for it currently, I’d probably see them out on the roads. I know it. My first thoughts when I went to the Buick dealer last month to check one out: “not bad, but I’d rather spend my money on a rear driver from Chrysler”. Seriously, I think tons of 300C owners feel the same way.
I am far less concerned with which wheels do the driving than with how my car handles. I am an enthusiast and I own a RWD sports car, but I would consider a well-sorted FWD car as well (the acura TSX comes immediately to mind). While RWD has gotten most of the attention recently, I think you will see a pendulum effect in a couple of years as buyers in colder climates realize how good they had it with predictable FWD handling.
rear wheel drive for everything or all wheel drive
I can not believe how GM have treated the brand of SAAB. Mistake after mistake has been made and the current models are hopelessly outdated compared to its competitors. If GM shall be able to bring SAAB back up to its old grace the need to continue with FWD and absolutely not use RWD (it shouldn’t even be considered imo). Use FWD on most of the models and AWD on the Aero models. And please! Let there be a Saab Sonett! And one last thing, if you consider putting a V8 in the next 9-5…let it be a biturbo so that the heritage of turbos will be kept
And by the way….I’m a SWEDISH…
I’m in my fifties, live in the mountains of western NC and drive in my job to the tune of about 30K a year. My ancient Dodge Diplomat with the police pkg suspension and Sure-Grip rear will go anywhere in the snow better than ANY front wheel drive. And with better control cause you can steer with the rear wheels [spinning them to change direction- something even AWD can't do]. Here in the mountains going up a hill in a FWD you lose the ability to steer when the front wheels start to slip. I can go in any snow up to the point where it gets deep enough to drag the bottom of the car.
The car is more fun to drive in any weather cause of the balance of RWD. Even oldsters prefer the advantages of RWD. I bought a Mustang primarily cause it was the only small RWD I could find and afford.
It’s a big lie perpetrated on the American public, even by enthusiast magazines, to pretend that FWD can be more fun to drive than the mediocre RWD’s. The more power a FWD car has, the worse it handles at the limit.
American car companies must get back to making something that owners can take pride in owning. Dumping the Camaro a few years ago [and before that the RWD Impala] cost more in image loss than dollars at the time. But it cost GM real dollars over the years in loss of pride of ownership. I think of GM as the “rental” car corporation. Remember the 1957 Eldorado Brougham? You lost money on that one too, even at $13K, but look what it did for Cadillac’s image. You’ll never get back to where you were unless you lose the “appliance” attitude toward cars. Alfred Sloan had it right in the twenties. You are not making toasters, you are making personal statements for real people. Unless you can put pride of ownership back into your products- you’re history. A few more RWD cars would be a start.
Mike
RWD. although fwd is better in cold, it does nothing for the rest of us.
I think FWD has its place… But it wouldnt be in a performance Era.
Sure FWD can be good, but RWD can be better. As we saw at the Ride and Drive at the Hollywood Casino yesterday, the new Tahoes E80 (Eaton Automatic locking rear differential) option allows the 2wd rwd Tahoe better traction then the Toyota Sequoia 4×4. This must say something?
Currently I own 2 Pontiac RWD V8 Firebirds. and I think brands that are supposed to be designed to be exciting, should intigrate RWD into all of their platforms. Personally I’ve heard rumors that Pontiac will be receiving a Pursuit in the USA, a car basically based on the delta platform. A badge engeenered cobalt if you will. In my prefference I think Pontiac ought to have only RWD and AWD vehicles. if the pursuit was truly coming, it would be nice to see if offer something the Cobalt didnt, and in an Exciting package. Saturn already has the delta, Pontiac doesnt need a “me too” entry, unless its truly exciting(and its hard to get a fwd car exciting in my book of rules).
now if this topic is about saab, i am sorry to misdirect my focus. Saab, I have little understanding of its roots. As does probably most Americans. So if born from jets is where it comes. Should we see some aerodynamic leading models coming out? Because lets face it… if you are going to force a car company to go with a moto or directional advertisement, you ought to stick to it. I commend you on your saab line up, I had a customer turn down a TrailBlazer SS for a Saab 9-7X… I thought it would be difficult to turn down the SS package but… Saab could use a nice optional AWD package with a line up of RWD vehicles. People who are going for premium vehicles dont want fwd anyway. What GM needs to design is a rwd chassis that can out perfrom a fwd in bad weather conditions and you’ll take the market by storm.
The clients I deal with at the dealership (Chevrolet) have one major complaint about the Impala… FWD is never something the consumer wants to hear…
I’m not sure what my next vehicle will be, but you can bet it’ll be rwd, hopefully GM will offer something new for me to choose from, or I’ll just have to hog up some used ones… (Impala SS 1994-96) maybe a new Firebird.
But I understand California Votes need to be tallied differently then the East Coast owners… hopefully you could offer a vehicle that was exciting and could still drive in the east coast, but dont neglect the largest market in the USA… Cali
As a 24-year-old male, not to mention former Cobalt & Cavalier owner, I vote FWD. I like the extra peace of mind FWD gives me on snow and ice, and performance isn’t my main concern.
RWD, please… especially if you exploit it’s benefits in the area of steering feel.
There are plenty of low-cost manufacturers from Korea and (soon) China who can build small, cheap, front-drive cars. Since GM is not in a position to compete with these vehicles on COST, GM is going to have to beat them on CONTENT.
Rear Wheel Drive is the “killer app” for GM. When combined with compelling, innovative, sexy designs (including good proportions, ie. long dash-to-axle, big wheels, etc) RWD/AWD has the ability to differentiate GM from the crowd.
Bear in mind that the Audi A4, A6, and A8 (and the VW Phaeton and previous-gen Passat), although offered as fwd in base models (in their home market at least) all use a longitudinal engine and transmission setup, just like a standard rwd car. The balance and handling characteristics are therefore atypical for a fwd car, which normally has a transverse engine and transmission sitting ahead of the drive wheels (also common in small mid-engine rwd cars). Audi’s setup offers better balance, but at the same packaging penalties as a rwd car (awd versions lose cargo space as well). The longitudinal engine does have advantages for future pedestrian-safety rules, since the engine can sit further back in the chassis away from the point of impact without requiring the enormous front overhang seen in the latest fwd Peugeots.
RWD is the way to go, even in smaller cars. It is much more fun, if you were to make a cobalt coupe RWD and keep the low price, it would be awesome, sales would increase for sure, because the people who dont care, will still buy it anyway, and the people who do care, will actually give the car a look, no other affordable compact car these days is RWD its dissapointing, theres nothing fun about peeling out in a FWD car. It sucks. as for weather concerns, the traction control, and technology we have today definatly would eliminate the difference between rwd and fwd weather performance. all in all, MAKE RWD CARS GM!! save yourself! ps. I own a civic, and a rwd compact car, from GM would actually make me consider the General.
Isn’t it obvious GM is trying to say, “Look, FWD is ok TOO!”
Why is everyone even responding if GM doesn’t care? Everyone says RWD, we want RWD. GM says no. Lutz says, essentially, that while we’re waiting for the new camaro, that we should be ‘happy with what we have’ (in one of his recent blog posts). In other words – you’ll get nothing you want, and like it!
RWD with traction and stability control almost entirely negates the value of FWD in the snow. It doesn’t negate the packaging advantages – but if you’re going for performance, style, sex appeal, you know, the stuff that causes people to CARE about cars as more than transportation (hint:gives them brand loyalty, something GM needs) then you need RWD cars.
Saab… I don’t see the draw in Saab at all. I’m only 20 – maybe when I get older (re: closer to death) I’ll see the point in buying a FWD saab. I think Saab could really be made a trick brand though. Kill just about all of the current styling, get some ACTUAL jet/look fast things going on, and don’t put it on Soccer Mom’s FWD ‘I’m afraid of the snow and I cry in my sleep’ platform, have remote start as an option, push button start standard, an optional keypad that you need to punch in a code to turn on the car – you know, TRICK stuff, along with bitchin turbocharged engines that you design from the factory to need only a few tweaks to get much more power out of – but by doing so you void the warranty. For instance, give an engine option with a turbo with an external wastegate, and make boost adjustable from inside the car (boost controller, stock!). Also, a secondary fuel tank running race gas, and an option to REALLY crank up the boost, would be… psychotic, but I’d buy one.
So I’m 20 – my first car was a 2001 volkswagen passat with the bigger engine, the v6. I got it about 4 ft in the air when I crashed it. It was fun in the corners, because I didn’t have to press it – just ask it nicely, then pull the e-brake handle, then apply the gas, once it was pointing in the right direction. So it was fun.
My current car is a ‘97 BMW 540i. I’ll never drive a FWD car again by choice, unless its to rail on some beater that some friend has acquired and wishes to blow up. I became so fascinated by the driving experience, that I bought a 240sx (which I barely fit in, being a 6′4″ American).
Never, ever again will I drive a FWD vehicle by choice.
I can get my BMW to slide so nice. So nice. And the traction control will go away – unlike my older brother’s new Charger, which I would never buy because you can’t make the electronic nannies stay where they should be – back in a computer, on a desk, not cutting out your throttle when you get sideways.
I’m a firm believer that if you screw up, you crash, its your fault, you pay. I like safety – but not when it intrudes on my ability to hurt myself. It should be my common sense that does that.
Saab should rock. As it stands – its so uninspiring. And the fiasco with the subaru WRX with a new look and calling it the 9-2? GM is so devoid of excitement, they need to hire it out to the japanese. Good job, GM. Way to be on life support and loving it.
Oh well. I like wasting these words, because as an American, I like to bi**h and hope that my voice is heard. I know its futile – but so did Odin. ‘Nuff said.
rear wheel drive, baby!!!!!!
I really enjoy driving my ‘03 9′3 Saab which is a Turbo FWD car. But what I am puzzled is that why when car magazines compare this car with other RWD cars in the same class like BMW, Infiniti, and M&B, Saab gets a relatively low ranking. Since the results are pretty consistent across several such tests, it is making me feel that perhaps I am missing something.
So, in deciding on a car architecture, you should also consider perception in the marketplace (particularly, in the high-end market). Being a large car company, I believe you should offer both platforms to remain competitive. In other words, don’t try to always make decisions based on engineering factors (like the way you ruled out hybrid’s in the beginning – - which I actually agree with your original position).
I understand that FWD is cheaper, more efficient, and better for winter driving. Nonetheless, I’d still prefer to have a RWD vehicle for performance reasons. It’s tough to get a good launch with FWD. I drive a ‘98 Grand Prix; even with only 200 hp it will smoke the tires if I mash the throttle to the floor. I’m not real concerned about winter driving. I live in St. Louis, MO. Even these middle latitudes it doesn’t snow often enough to warrant FWD or AWD. I’m shopping for a sporty midsize coupe (like a G6) and I’m 23 years old. Although I have a preference for RWD, I may buy another FWD vehicle because they are less expensive and I don’t want to spend more than $25k.
Well, I’m not really a young buyer, 40, and not really a consumer of sub-compact and compact cars. I now tend to prefer the mid-size and larger sedans with RWD. But I have owned compact cars in the past. When I buy a compact, I am usually doing so for the greater mpg. FWD tends to make more sense for sub-compact and compact cars.
But those consumers in their 20’s now purchasing the Tc’s of the world, may like an affordable under $25 grand RWD compact.
It’s a tough call. Could they be offered with options for both RWD and RWD?
I’m 24, californian, single, loves cars and corners. Own a 95 Miata (lightweight, rwd) and a 90 Eagle Talon TSi AWD (awd, a blast to drive)
With Saab, I think the FWD/AWD line-up fits what Saab is. But I also would never buy a Saab, the only Saab drawing my attention is the 9-2(?) which is a WRX in Saab clothing.
For the enthusiast a RWD/AWD platform is best. RWD gives more control options and AWD, minus the weight dissadvantage, gives the most traction and ease of driving. I only plan to buy RWD/AWD vehicles.
What I look for in a car. Lightweight, handling, straightline speed, good drivetrain, and something that would be easy to work on. My Talon is a PIA to work on, mainly because of its FWD/AWD platform. But my Miata is as simple as ever to do anything to. Pulling out the Miatas engine/transmission was about as hard as pulling out just the transmission on my Talon.
But I got off point. If Saab had a light, rwd/awd, platform with a focus on how the car was build to help handling, and was just fun to drive I’d be interested in it. I like the new Camaro, but I fear it will be a heavy ass pig with a big v8 to compensate.
Same thing with the Solstice, it is an awesome looking car with everything right, but it is just way too heavy! The miata, current ‘top’ of the fun/cheap convertable market (i think) is a good 400 pounds lighter with a similar output. That’s like dragging a fat man threw the curves.
I do also like the Cobalt SS, but the Neon SRT-4 is everything the Cobalt is not… except, it is still a Neon.
Thanks for hearing my input, even though it was not well put together.
-John
I would love to see you guys start to make some compact rear wheel drive cars again. I’m 44, and started driving in the ’70’s before front drive became all the rage.
While FWD has it’s place among small cars……what I can’t stand about FWD is the goofy proportions it gives to bigger cars.
The front wheels can be so close to the front of the door, so much so that the wheelwell intrudes into the drivers footwell. At 6′ 3″, this is no fun. And that long front overhang is simply ridiculous!
I know that some of the engineering concerns are interior space. but if you’re going after the youth (and the wannabe youth) market, understand that these are folks that probably have no family to worry about carting around, but want a nice comfortable 2+2 for themselves and their buddies.
So who really cares if it’s got an interior hump??
AWD shouldn’t be considered for a car of this type due to 1) Weight, 2) Cost.
It’s interesting that folks did just fine in the snow here in the states before FWD became so pervasive. I fault the woefully inadequate Driver Education in this country for folks not having the right training for snow/ice.
Also, it’s interesting to note that BMW, and Mercedes never latched on to the FWD mantra………..both which are produced in Germany where it snows a LOT!
I’d like to see you guys do something along the lines of the Torana concept a couple years ago and perhaps give that to Pontiac. Something on a stretched Kappa frame would be sweet!
The powertrain of such a car would be a nice turbo’d (or supercharged) 4 cyl, or ideally an inline 6.
Yeah I know……….V6’s are more popular these days, but frankly I can’t stand the sound of a V6 at full throttle…………..it just doesn’t sound as smooth as an inline 6 but of course this is subjective.
Pricing should start at just under 20 grand for the 4cyl…….nicely optioned, for around 26K.
I know you guys CAN pull this off……the real question is, WILL you?
There is only one market I can think of now that no one offers a single car in. Compact RWD 2+2 coupe. They were everywhere in the 80s and early 90s, then they quit selling. The demand is back we are sick of settling for FWD stuff. FWD can be done and done exciting, but the Cobalt SS is the only time GM has ever done it. You claim to have years of FWD expertise, but to enthusiasts you just started.
I am 24 and my requirements for purchasing a car/truck are: RWD, V6 or V8, and Manual Transmission. I currently drive a 2004 Dodge Dakota 3.7L.
Unfortunately GM can only offer this in a few selections: Vette, Solstice, GTO, CTS, and some of their trucks. Also they seem to tie the manuals with the weaker engines.
Maybe GM is struggling because they are trying to be something they are not (Small cars with FWD).
My vote:
Compact and Midsize – FWD
Performance Cars – RWD/AWD
Luxury Cars – FWD or RWD/AWD
Thanks for asking.
BTW, Increase the standard warranty to at least 6/60,000 on everything. If GM reliability and durability are as high as claimed, it should not break the bank and will impress a lot of buyers. How come the Koreans can do it?
“Audi, Saab, Volvo are still trying to catch up. AWD does not equal RWD.”
That’s why Audi dominated rally racing in the 80s and forced a wholesale switch to AWD from all the major competing brands?
Ignorant!
If you are talking Saab, I would suggest taking the Audi route: AWD with FWD bias. Basically, I say that because Saab is traditionally FWD.
However, I have only driven one FWD car in my life that I enjoyed, and that is the Mini Cooper. If you can create a car as fun as the Mini, FWD is fine.
Otherwise, RWD or AWD is the way to go. As far as snow goes, a RWD car with proper winter tires will do better in the snow than your average FWD car with all season tires. It is all about the tires.
I agree that for packaging reasons, FWD has advantages. But I would much prefer you reach back into the past to your Corvair and produce a RWD/rear-engined car. That is the best of all worlds: fun to drive, great packaging, and unstoppable in the snow. And with today’s engineering, the oversteer can be controlled.
And, yes, I own a Corvair, along with a couple of Porsches which also have the engine where they are supposed to go: behind me.
All anybody needs (except for racing or heavy snow climates) is FWD with stability control. I like watching RWD cars struggle in the snow as I drive by in my Saab. My 9-3 SportCombi rides and handles great, has room for people and stuff, doesn’t carry the extra weight and inefficiency of the larger driveline components that RWD tends to carry. And I don’t need the wastefulness of AWD components either. 4WD or AWD just gets you into trouble faster. Stability control and ABS keep you out of trouble. By the way, I’m 34 year old and will only buy FWD vehicles (unless I buy a fun convertible or sports car).
If you want to compete with other European imports and grow your market segment you need to have RWD. Think BMW, Mercedes. These buyers are enthusiasts! Otherwise you will always sell only to the SAAB faithful and a few wonderers that will keep total SAAB sales below the 40k units per year.
While Saab has a history of FWD, you have changed the direction of the marque. If you intend to do things that the true believers call blasphemy, such as abandoning the hatchback, then you might as well abandon FWD. It seems you’d like Saab to compete with BMW. Saabs just can’t do that with FWD.
On the other hand, I think there is a viable niche for an upmarket, quirky vehicle that has pinnache, style, and performance. If you do go with FWD, don’t be afraid to make Saab into something strange, as it’s always been.
But for me, I will never buy another car that doesn’t have a true manual transmission and RWD. There is a place for FWD, like gas-sippers, minivans, and family appliances, but I won’t buy those. Give me a small, RWD hatch and I’d be in heaven. Or a RWD sport coupe (small). Or a RWD sedan. I don’t care.
I will say that if the 9-3 were RWD, I’d consider one. Nice looking car, but a little too expensive for something that’s a Malibu.
FWD is fine for compact/sub-compact cars. Smaller cars benefit from the add’l space that FWD packages allows. Anything above compact size though should be offered in RWD if there is an engine offered that has more than 225lb/ft of torque. General Motors DESPERATELY needs an affordable performance oriented mid-sized sedan to replace the FWD Impala/Grand Prix.
CADILLAC: RWD ONLY! Oh, and can the alphabet soup please. Bring back the Eldorado, Seville and Deville monikers.
CHEVROLET:
FWD is fine for Aveo, Cobalt, and Malibu
RWD is REQUIRED for Impala, Monte Carlo, Camaro, Corvette, Nomad (hint) and El Camino (hint).
PONTIAC:
Why duplicate the Chevy line-up? Rebadge Opels for American consumption instead.
OPEL: FWD of course!
BUICK:
Needs major upgrading, overhaul and RWD to compete with BMW!!! Ergo, introduce a compact “Apollo”, and a midsize “Athena” as well as a fullsize “Roadmaster”. Buick-Pontiac-GMC should be a separate division of GM. And HUMMER should supply their SUVs.
SATURN:
Entry level and “green” machines showcasing GM’s new technologies.
SAAB:
Must remain FWD with AWD option. Significant power boosting options required with turbo V6’s and V8’s.
HOLDEN: Opel and Buick copies for South Pacific markets.
DAEWOO: More Opel rebadges for Asian market.
Here is Top Gear’s viewpoint on the question:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7779894845558014372
A company as big as GM should be offering both and using the difference to distinguish one brand from another. Nissan has figuered out how to build one platform that is sold as FWD (Altima) and RWD (G35). Why not use the difference to give your different brands some real identity.
I own an ‘03 Saab 9-3 that is of course fwd. I also own an ‘06 BMW 325i which is rwd.
I like both in their own way, but there is absolutely no comparison in terms of steering feel and precision, as well as driving satisfaction, between the two. Guess which one is better?
fwd is nice for an appliance car. The reason GM likes them is they’re cheaper. The mistake is thinking that “we’re cheaper” sells more cars than “we’re better”.
Time for an attitude change at GM
Its time to take advantage of your relationship with Suzuki. You blew it with Subaru. Suzuki has the least expensive AWD cars around. They only charge $1,000 more for AWD. GM needs to utilize Suzuki’s experience with AWD. Also, it couldn’t hurt to utilize Suzuki’s 150HP 4 Cylinder engine that powers the Aerio.
How about matching Suzuki’s warranty also while we’re at it!?
Aveo-FWD
Cobalt/HHR/Vibe/Ion-FWD
Malibu/G6/Aura-FWD
Impala/Monte Carlo/LaCrosse-RWD with AWD Option.
DTS/Lucerne-FWD with AWD option.
Caddy BRX-FWD with AWD Option.
All other Caddys-RWD with AWD Option.
Camaro/Firebird-obviously RWD.
Chevelle/Tempest-RWD with AWD Option.
Equinox/Torrent/Outlook-FWD with AWD option.
Only use SS moniker with RWD or AWD Vehicles.
GM Wants to Know: Front or Rear Wheel Drive?
But asking the front tires to brake, steer and convey power to the road is simply too much to ask. That is why understeer is such an inherent characteristic of high performance driving in a front-wheel-drive vehicle.
Gimme Gimme:
A VEE-EIGHT.
PUSHRODS.
REAR. WHEEL. DRIVE.
*Grunt*
Arr Arr Arr!!
OMG FWD SUX
(I drive a FWD F.O.R.D Taurus. understeers like a son of a B****, no fun to drive. at all. bleah.)
Jack, et al.,
Thanks for asking for input from GM enthusiasts.
The Scion coupe and the Civic are front wheel drive. Look at the competiton sales. GM adversaries like those at at Motor Trend gave the Civic car of the year. Maybe GM should give the media a hypocrite of the year award.
GM should not have allowed the Scion coupe to go unanswered for this long. If ugly cars like the Civic can sell, and functional cars like the Scion can sell to those who are not car guys, there must be something you are missing. GM already builds the best products, yes, that is true, and it has been true for a long time. So what is the answer. Panic is not the answer.
Here is an answer, from a GM enthusiast:
Innovative styling can create the quality perception. Styling is the whole component, not just the look of the car, but the image it projects in the market place. The proof of this is that many ugly cars like the front wheel drive Honda Civic actually sell and the buyers don’t even shop around.
The younger male buyers you are trying to reach want image and male sex appeal, pure and simple. The Scion, though functional, is marketed like blue jeans to upper middle class young males who couldn’t tell you the first thing about why the car is a good car except that it was on some list in the magazine which they find out later anyway.
Start thinking fashion, lifestyle, sex appeal, surf boards, skate boards, ipods, cell phones, and computer games, if you want to sell cars and make money in the immediate future. With all the success of the Matrix and Cadillac you would think GM would have caught on to the success of Cadillac. Make a movie like too Fast to Furious, only make it pro-GM.
Whether you do it with RWD, FWD, AWD, just do it. I agree the comment posted that GM sells V-8’s well. Why not make the small V-8 again, test it with the y-gen.
If I’m hearing you right, the Saab styling and look, is probably right for this crowd, but GM needs to implement a marketing image strategy to reach these customers with a competitive model and price. Develop parterships with the fashion and lifestyle, and movie promoters, and develop more of an entertainment focus for GM to hit back. GM’s newest ads are much better. The younger buyers like high mpg, quality, available performance, and they also like image.
Stars like Colin Farrel, Keanu Reeves, and Angelina Jolie, even Eminem, will go much farther as promoters of GM with the y-gen/ millenials,the younger buyers than someone in a business suit. GM has done a good job of hitting the NBA NFL sports crowd and the tough guy muscle car crowd, this isn’t where GM is having the problem. The problem is the upper middle class younger buyer who is not much of a car person. GM is not reaching them at all. Their driveways are in desperate need of a GM product. Their college kids are missing the wonderful world of General Motors and they don’t even know it. My college students, my high school students, fashion industry buying experience, and more tell me GM needs to be more street saavy an more lifestyle and entertainment focused. GM owners are your best ambassadors, we’ve been fighting in the trenches for you in the ground war, but GM needs to start the air campaign and the strategic war to win.
Levi almost went out of the market place because of trendy fashion images from the competition. Levi was the IBM of fashion. Popular in the past, but then came the tattered and torn blue jeans out of no where and took their base away.
GM should not have furlowed the Camaro for this long. The Camaro has a lot of credibility with the younger buyers. GM has the right perception there. The bottom line is Oldsmobile would be a best seller if GM had developed more street saavy marketing. Bluntly, GM needs to hit the Abercrombie and Hollister crowd with the G6. GM should have register to win boxes inside these stores.
Flying to Detroit is a wonderful experience, but why not have two Detroit shows, one in summertime if you get my drift. The autoshow is spectatular. Make the choreography of the NAIAS in Detroit more entertainment oriented. Have a movie star pop out of your new models on stage make it like an MTV award, make headlines for a change instead taking the brunt of them. Stop letting the media and your foreign competition get the better of the war of words and slogans.
GM has so many great attributes. ONSTAR, for one, why hasn’t GM developed an entertainment marketing strategy for ONSTAR? ONSTAR
is capabable of much more than safety. GMAC insurance is capable of much more. Just look at all the younger buyers who need insurance and can’t get it because of age discrimination in the ratings.
Do things more quickly, GM needs a Saab like entry level model for Cadillac for the younger buyer right now, priced about 25K. Target the Scion and the Civic head on.
Put some new Pontiac and Cadillac dealerships near upper middle class neighborhoods and high schools. Put some G6’s in drivers ed. Be seen as environmentally friendly, and keep saying GM has more models over 30 mpg. Say trouble free more often
to those who want a care free lifestyle.
There is something to be said for the RWD customer. I have a Camaro, so I understand that. But don’t let GM’s adversarial critics mislead you. I also enjoy GM’s front drive cars, so do many GM enthusiasts, and so do your competitors like the Scion coupe.
GM’s front drive sedans are the best in class vehicles. But you don’t get this from the media, it comes from the customers saying it.
GM needs to counter the bias in the media, it has to be done. Channels like the editors of local 6 WKMG news, CBS affiliate in Orlando regularly run pro-Japanese car tid bits on the morning news or even negative news on American makes, so often its almost like they are advertising for the Japanese. Motor Trend and Car and Driver make what sound like smart aleck remarks about GM. The faceless editors of MSN autos have made aweful uncalled for remarks about GM. These kinds of things are anti-American, and GM just takes it on the cheek. Washington politicians go unanswered by GM execs and its supporters when they make baseless remarks. GM enthusiasts know GM the American auto companies are the most upstanding companies world, with the highest ethics and the biggest hearts.
Here are a few words of wisdom for GM execs:
1. Wall Street does their banking in Japan.
2. GM sells makes more money in America when the US has a popular President in office, and when the US savings rate is up, have you noticed? Tell the media that one.
3, What’s good for GM is good for America and vice versa. Still true.
4. GM needs to be more involved in US again, as much or more than GM seems to be overseas.
5. Consider making a computer game called ONSTAR.
6. Your almost home.
7. We appreciate GM.
GM, please don’t mess up the new Camaro and bring it out as a coupe version of your (old) FWD Impala/Grand Prix platform! Do this right – like you did with the Solstice/Sky and the CTS/STS – bring back the Camaro and perhaps a Buick sedan/coupe properly – as rear drive with modern traction control systems and optional AWD. (Think Infiniti G35). Oh yes, and don’t forget a Pontiac GTO version of the new rear drive architecture too. I know your company too well.
Take the following possible scenario going on (hopefully it isn’t, but worst case, this could be it) :
Engineering and Design: lets do the Camaro Concept as is, it’s awesome. It will handle and perform well and be an incredible product that our customers are totally going to dig!
Accounting and various other middle managers: Well, it looks like it may cost more. Lets just use the same platform we use currently for the Impala – hey, people will buy it if we say it’s good.
So, if the above mentioned scenario pans out, you’ll have tons of disappointed rear drive car fans that will go spend their money at Lexus, BMW and perhaps Ford (Mustang) and Chrysler (300C / Magnum). Or, you can rebound your image, produce cars that you *KNOW* would be a lot more rewarding to own and drive and actually save face in the automotive enthusiest world. I’ll be looking to trade in my tired 1998 GMC Jimmy with a nice rear drive coupe in about 2 years or so. I’d like to seriously consider that new Camaro – but only with the same drivetrain and underpinnings as the one displayed in Detroit. Not a warmed over front drive car. No way. You can fool some people into thinking a car may be an actual “performance” car (Grand Prix GXP, Impala SS), but I seriously doubt that BMW wouldn’t have been as successful as they are had it not been for the rear drive layouts of their cars.
I have noticed a lot of Acura references on here. I can’t explain it other than perhaps those cars, in and of themselves, could be put in a vacuum and it wouldn’t matter what kind of drivetrain they had, they’re just built really well. I don’t think GM could pull off the Acura TL like Honda could. Perhaps the Saturn Aura will prove me wrong on that (I hope it does).
FWD has it’s place, but not in a true *performance* vehicle.
I just hope you guys aren’t thinking about converting everything back to FWD ala the 1980s again (like Caddy) – it would seriously be the kiss of death for GM.
Just watched a guy spend a million plus on a Chevelle.
There’s a lot of love out there for GM cars when they are done right. Not going to say people won’t or can’t love a FWD car but my goodness, do what the people want. They want a Camaro and just can’t see them going bonkers over a FWD nameplate job. Everything has it’s place but it’s not everywhere.
BTW, go walk around any GM workplace, count the amount of “new” Camaro posters guys have hung up. We want to do it. So what if we go broke “if” it fails. At least we went down putting up a good fight.
Living in Australia, I was after a lowcost sporty RWD car. The cheapest car that offered what I wanted was a Ford BA XR8. This was way bigger than I really wanted, as well as using more fuel. I would have liked a car similar to the BMW 1 or 3 series but these actually cost more over here (I spent AU$34000 approx US$22000 for the 5 month old XR8 with 350HP engine).
I would like at least 4 seats, dont mind whether 2 or 4 door and would like above 200HP and not weighing more than 1500Kg.
I do see the advantages of FWD and feel there is till a market for these as low cost ,reliable, safe and boring means of transport. They offer better traction in muddy or icy conditions (but only on the flat).
In Australia we need more variety of cars available. GM and Ford offer almost identical cars across the range, but totally miss the small RWD sector , favoured by many people. As a result most young people buy imported second hand Nissan Sylvias and Skylines.
Saabs’ new cars shouldn’t be either FWD or RWD. Other GM divisions do these very well and it’s a waste for Saab to rehash these. Rebuild the Camaro, Swedish Style? — give me a break, PLEASE!
Do something DIFFERENT! Be distinctive! Nail that growing hot hatch market that Audi, Volvo, (soon) Chrysler and others gobbling every sale.
You have the foundation already – the Epsilons’ solid MAXX chassis, to be dropped by Chevy because they don’t have a clue as to how to build or sell a sport hatch (bling bling wheels, ridiculous spoiler and chrome ain’t it!).
Various mags like Car and Driver like the Maxx even in its lead shoes, and Saab could work wonders with it.
Upgrade the interior, smooth out the rear end, add some Swedish styling flair, a full-time AWD drive system, an aluminum block V6 with direct injection and turbo (or go for broke with small block Yahama or other V8!). Sell it for $32K and up and you’ll not only have a car that will blow other sport hatches off the road, but give Saab a true unique stance within GM products.
To prelude this I am a 22 year old male. I live in Columbus, OH and I know what snow is. I drive a supercharged RWD vehicle with no traction control year round.
To answer your question: It depends entirely on the model, target audience, and to a degree the history of the vehicle.
I was going to make this long and winded, but decided against it. So I’ll sum up:
Saab – FWD is a strong part of their heritage & image. AWD should be an option, but only on top models (Viggens).
Pontiac – RWD only. They’re a performance brand and need to start acting like one.
Chevy – Chevy is in the prime position to have FWD, RWD, & AWD models. Small models are FWD; large models are RWD/AWD.
Cadillac – RWD/AWD only on all models. Similar in concept to Audi, except the AWD systems will be RWD bias.
Buick – FWD. If for the only reason we don’t want them infringing on Cadillac.
Saturn – FWD. They are your import brand, let them compete head-to-head then. They can have a few RWD models though, but it’s not their forte.
The rest – your other brands should be self explanatory (Hummer/GMC/etc).
FWD & AWD is a much needed design feature where snow is encountered. I have delivered new cars for 32 years and the comparison is immeasurable. I lived in Texas back in the 70’s and can only say it really does not matter where the snow doesn’t fly. FWD and AWD should be combined with RWD for out west and people that want a fast car. I have driven all over the country and can only say I have seen the fast cars and they are stuck in traffic so it does not really matter.
Forget about RWD.
The other day I was crossing the mountain pass to Lake Tahoe and it had suddenly started to snow and gotten slipperily icy. The Mustang RWD in front of me had absolutely no traction! It made a 360 degree spin and almost flew off the road. With my FWD I swerved nicely around it without any traction problem. My conclusion: RWD is irresponsibly dangerous.
I prefer RWD. I agree with Greg. If no RWD, then definetly AWD, but I would stay away from FWD.
If you want to position the brand against Volvo.. then AWD is what you need to use in order to do so.
Turning Saab all RWD or mostly RWD would anger a lot of the loyalists and keep people in the colder climates from really investing in the brand.
It is to bad that this FWD RWD situation needs to be even a thought or pondered. Both platforms should have always been maintained at some level, while pursueing affordable, reliable AWD. Now we’re behind.
At the same time there is so many misconceptions being pushed as important facts by enthousiasts in the south or flat lands as to the lack of benefits of FWD. Also highly exaggerated myths about inferiority in handling. The difference is nothing that can be felt or of any concern at levels even 20-30 mph above posted speed limits.
Still both need to be made available by GM and the thought of only one or the other never entertained again.
I am a Saab(9-5 aero manual
owner. I love my car and have wanted one since 1998. But I had a Audi A4 quattro and I must admit, even now, I consider purchasing another Audi instead of Saab because of the AWD.
Saab represents the pinnacle of safety. How can Saab not offer AWD. Powerful FWD leads to torque steer. Powerful RWD leads to spinouts. Powerful AWD leads to moving forward.
Move Saab forward offer AWD.
I’m a geezer at 54, but I plan on buying a new Camaro (or dare I say it, Challenger, whichever hits first). Heck, I may buy both. I’m at the point where I may as well spend it!
I vote RWD by a wide margin. This nonsense GM is pushing about FWD can be just as much fun is a crock. No matter how good, a FWDer is, it could have been better with RWD.
I have spent my career as an engineer involved in product design, so we’ll do what I know how to do; lets look at the trade-offs.
Surprisingly, its really not a question of which wheels drive the car, its a question of the design impacts resulting from which wheels drive.
To explain:
In all except very few cases, FWD vehicles place the engine/trans in a transverse arrangement. This causes the bulk of the mass to be placed in front of the drive axle centerline. It can be done differently, but only in very rare cases has it been otherwise. This cantilevering of the engine in front of the wheels causes many negative things:
1. Horrible weight distribution and resultant handling degradation. In fact, the traction advantage of FWD is only present because of this adverse weight distribution. What aids you on the slick, hurts you on dry pavement. Which do you most commonly drive on? Additionally, the torque steer issue of FWD raises its ugly head when talking of handling. This can be eliminated, but rarely is.
2. The front wheels look like they are placed awkwardly rearward. Styling-wise, almost all FWD cars suffer from this. The proportions are ungainly. Some of GM’s FWDers look like the front end is going to break-off.
3. This wheel placement creates minimal front seat leg room. Here is a major point for me. When folks say that FWD enhances interior room, I wonder what they are talking about. A RWD driveshaft tunnel does encroach on middle seat passengers, but in todays autos, who sits in the middle???? Certainly not in today’s front seats which are all bucket. To say that saving a little bit of rear middle passenger legroom on FWD cars vs. the driver and passenger legroom reductions common in FWD is a good trade is nonsense. RWD cars typically have FAR more usable interior space, the key being usable. I’m 6′4″ and drive a BMW 3 series. I don’t even push the seat all the way back.
On the positive side for FWD, it is indeed, cheaper to produce. On that point, I understand GMs seeming love of FWD. Because of this, it certainly does have a legitimate place in downmarket offerings. It would seem though that on more expensive cars, GM could indulge us RWD lovers.
As far as AWD goes, as a veteran of Volvo V70 AWD ownership, I can attest, that I just didn’t get it. It added $5K to the prices, many feet to the 60 mph stopping distance, hundreds of pounds to the car, and reduced gas mileage 2 mpg. It did make the car into a mountain goat, but it also led me to thinking that, although I’ve been involved in several accidents over the years on ice and snow, they’ve always been about not being able to stop; never about not being able to go. AWD doesn’t improve stopping one bit, actually makes it worse. This safety implication is false with AWD. Granted that was a FWD based AWD, but the same issues exist with RWD based AWD. For those that think they need it, and want to live with the drawbacks, for heaven’s sake, offer it. I’ll pass on it though.
And that brings up the last point. I left GM (my first true love) for BMW simply because they made what I want, and GM didn’t any more. If GM gave me what I want to buy, I would, but they don’t. When you look at the offerings in the top end of the market (where the money/profit is) BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Jaguar, are all RWD! Why on earth did GM decide to abandon me and my $50,000 every couple of years? I hope they soon come to their senses. The Camaro shown in Detroit is the first glimmer of hope I’ve seen from GM in years. It is good enough to get me back. Make it, and I will return.
Doug
I’ve just read over all of the comments above. Quick summation:
If you want your cars to be desired, make them RWD. If you want to make a name for yourself, make them RWD. If you want people to talk about them, make them RWD. If you want to have resale value, make them RWD (look at the resale value of M3’s, Corvettes, even Mustangs compared to the Focus, Cavalier, ect). GM is floundering because the only cars I’d ever want all have the Corvette engine and high price tags.
Make FWD cars for people that can’t control their vehicles, like those who posted above. Make FWD cars for people who don’t care about driving, just getting there. Make FWD cars for people who don’t know what FWD means. They want them.
Reliablity, style and performance are not words used to describe GM. I admire how Cadilac has gone (when they have the Corvette engine). The Grand National, the Corvette. Not Pontiac. They have no credit to their name, it’s all been cashed in by too many heavy FWD econoboxes that have cladding and wings. I don’t know where Buick is going. Don’t care. If they made a Grand National, I’d pay attention (have you seen the fake GN concept based off the GTO? Beautiful.). Chevy has one good car, don’t care about the rest. And more. This is from the point of view of the enthusiast. If you want people who drive Aveos to buy more cars, find a Corolla or Civic. Try reliablity, low cost and good interiors. They don’t need anything else.
im 20 and love performance. RWD for me. I typically do not enjoy driving fwd cars.
I really think for cars that are intended to be fun RWD or AWD is the only way to go. They can handle more power better without sacrificing handling.
Oh, did i mention donuts?
rwd for big ones.
fwd for small ones, spend the money you WOULD have spent on the rwd conversion on lexus-imitation styling and body panel fits and interior styling and plastics. those cars are being beaten in the showroom dazzle, not the spec sheet.
Rear wheel drive is fine on the true domestic brands within GM, however Saab’s heritage is front wheel drive and turbocharging. If Saab retains nothing else, it should be those two qualities. If you look back at the Saab 9000, compact on the outside, yet classified as a large car, you see a great benefit of FWD – lots and lots of interior room. But a huge cabin isn’t why most people purchase or lease Saabs, instead it is the way they drive.
Even though some drivers do just fine in their RWD vehicles in the snow, the fact is that the majority of people aren’t on top of their game 100% of the time while they drive. If you lose control of a FWD car that inherently understeers, the result is further understeer, which you are prepared to deal with because it is more of the same. To fix it you simply back off the gas pedal and there you go you are back in control. If you lose control of a RWD vehicle, understeer becomes oversteer, the opposite sensation of what you were just experiencing. You fishtail and probably spin. Yes, some drivers are perfectly capable of toeing the line between under and oversteer, but the reality of it is most would not be able to fix the mess they got themselves into.
The classic 900, the 9000, the ‘99thru’02 9-3, the 9-5, and the 9-3 sport sedan are all incredibly fun to drive YEAR ROUND in virtually ANY CLIMATE.
Stick with FWD in Saabs.
i will never purchase a front drive car. Please bring back the camaro.
The best car in your SAAB line up …the 9-5 wagon needs AWD now !
SAAB should have done this 15 years ago.
For goodness sake even Volvo has had AWD wagons for as long as I can remember.
SO get this done or else sell the company and get out of the way so other folks who are car guys can run the brand.
Sadly, you sir, are a truck and SUV guy and you have not protected the legacy of the marque.
I’m sure Renault can’t do any worse.
Tom Gilmore
Born from sense.
RWD can be better than FWD if you put on the proper tires.
That being said, the key word in this poll is for enthusiasm, not really practicaliity.
I have two compact cars, one is a 1985 Toyota Corolla GTS, and a 2000 Mazda Miata. If somebody made a new sub $20000 performance oriented RWD compact coupe, I would definitely consider buying one, no matter what the brand was.
Look at the prices like the Corolla GTS, and Nissan 240Sxs are going for now since drifting became popular, there is a market!
A Kappa Platform coupe/hatch would be a good start.
I would have to say that while RWD is no doubt a fad of the times for some vehicles, would be a great competitive advantage in the small car arena. Moreover, RWD cars are easier to service and a lot more fun to drive. I think a real niche that no manufacturer has yet exploited is the manufacture of a vehicle that’s easy to service–one where the owner can do virtually all routine maintenance. This would be great fun for many of us auto enthusiasts who love servicing our own cars but don’t like skinned knuckles. Build a nice, affordable car that’s fun to drive, and market it as one that’s easily modified by a do-it-yourselfer.
I think that for the most part, the compact/subcompact car market should be FWD. Definitely space considerations on small cars make FWD more practical. Economy also comes into play for the compact category more than other sizes in my mind, which tends to mean FWD. Plus, no matter what the facts of the matter are, FWD has a perception of better handling in weather. Younger drivers are also less likely to have ever driven a RWD car in the first place (I’m 24 and the only RWD car I’ve driven is a rental, and I was too concerned about it having an automatic to realize it was RWD)
That said, if you can make a sporty little kappa 4-seater or two, I suggest you go for it (and I wouldn’t bother pretending it can seat 5). Keep it affordable and offer it as a Pontiac or possibly Chevy. Keep Saab FWD with the occasional AWD, Buick and Caddillac aren’t really for compact cars, and I’m not really sure what you guys are doing with Saturn anymore (but when I did have an idea, it definitely didn’t involve RWD).
First off… Am I asking for a lot? You bet.
But honestly the competition is far enough ahead that a half-hearted attempt as you already know isn’t going to cut the gravy. So please take the following as information to help, not criticize. I’m tired of watching GM wallow too, and if I avoid pointing out flaws I’m not doing GM any favors.
As many people have pointed out AWD would be a welcome package, IF it’s backed by enough horsepower to make it worthwhile, otherwise go with rear-wheel drive. By the sound of your message though, it sounds like you’re already leaning toward FWD and are just looking for agreement.
Since you didn’t mention any price points I’ll assume since we’re talking about Saab that you want to take it at least a little upmarket from say a decked out Supercharged Cobalt SS at $23,000.
If you’re serious about making a great car then make it better than the Mitsubishi Evo (RS starts at $29,000) or Subaru WRX ($24,995 or STI $32,995) especially if the price is comparable, otherwise why bother?
Make the car fun. Make the steering precise and not dead and heavy like most GM cars feel.
Make the shifter precise, smooth and quick, and lose the standard GM shifter that feels “catchy”… like stirring rocks in a bucket. Most GM cars have good brakes but they tend to grab… make them progressive and firm.
Also put some thought into ergonomics and tactile feedback. I’ve used this example before but it fits here again…
The Mitsubishi Evo steering wheel is a Momo, the seats are Recaro, the shifter is precise, etc. and all this adds up to submerging the driver in the experience. The optional Recaro seats in the Cobalt SS are a good start…
Make the gauges clear and easy-to-read white numerals on black faces with a sharp elegant orange needle so you can see at a quick glance what the car and engine are doing. And make sure to have accurate tach., oil, temp., volt, turbo/vacuum (if needed) and fuel gauges. Accuracy has been an issue for GM with fuel gauges in the past, I know, both of my Camaro’s have/were off by more than half a tank. Both read optimistically higher than what was actually available. I didn’t enjoy being stranded…
I previously had a 1967 RS/SS Camaro and soon after a 1968 4 speed Firebird 400 ram air IV and I loved them. But being muscle cars they didn’t handle or brake well at all, and I didn’t expect them to at the time.
The 1993 Camaro Z-28 that I now drive has definitely improved over the older cars in the braking department but the handling still isn’t as good as the 1986 CRX Si I used to own and absolutely loved. That car was 7 years older and still was a better car than the Z-28. What I’m saying is that if you’re trying to design a sport compact car make it handle, that’s what we’re used to and expect. How about .90 g’s or better lateral acceleration and just as well through the slalom. That isn’t Z06 territory or even close to it so there’s no competition there. And make performance parts available for those of us that want better performance like Dodge.
In short…
Make the brakes excellent, how about stopping from 60 in 120 feet or less.
Make it accelerate. A 6 second 0-60 time isn’t good enough anymore. The SRT-4 gets to 60 in 5.5 sec. The Eagle Talon Tsi ran 6.3 back in 1991. Both of these cars prices are/were also very reasonable.
Great cars are visually exciting, tactilely pleasing, ergonomically comfortable, intuitive, and sound great but aren’t annoyingly loud on long trips.
If you make it rear-wheel drive, make it great! The 240Z no longer exists here but the 350Z does and is (starts at $27,650) probably close to your target price. There really isn’t much competition from Toyota, Nissan, Honda, or Ford YET but there will be, and it sounds like things are stirring at Kia/Hyundai. If they keep going like they have it sounds like they’re going to nail this niche in the next few years whether you guys do or not with a rear-wheel drive version.
While I realize I’m cherry picking please take these ideas into mind.
If you want examples for great dash and gauge layout take a look at the WRX STI’s and improve upon that.
Make it shift as well as or better than an Evo or almost any Honda.
Make it brake better than an Evo.
Make it as fun to drive as an Evo or if you have to go front wheel drive to keep the price down, make it handle and perform better than the new Civic Si and keep the price below the Civic Si.
Make it more fun than a Mini.
Make the engine smooth and willing to rev. to at least 6,500-7,000 rpm’s.
And one of the most critical points is to make it lightweight. 2,900 pounds would be awesome, but definitely not over 3,200 pounds. And subtract 100 pounds from that if it’s not AWD.
I hope this helps, as I’d love to see GM come out with an exciting, fun-to-drive, gorgeous sport compact car that surprises everyone by what you offer for the money.
Warmly,
Thunder
Let’s get real. The only reason domestic mfg’s made the switch to FWD is money. RWD requires extra chassis stiffening and components (not to mention assembly labor). FWD requires only a reinforced box and a driveline that will fit into said box. Take a drivetrain and shove it in a hole.
The best configuration is, of course, mid engine/RWD. Unfortunately, that driveline configuration is rather impractical. Front engine/RWD is the best trade-off and I will only give up my E320 sedan and return to domestics when RWD again becomes a design starting point, not a niche marketing effort.
I prefer RWD for the handling advantages. I cannot stand driving a FWD car and feeling torque steer. Also, a FWD car loses steering control in bad weather. I feel safer being able to steer with the throttle, if necessary, in snow or ice.
GM should return to her strength, RWD, on most cars. Bottom line, they are nicer to drive. 25 years of trying to make a FWD car feel as good as a RWD car have failed… time to move on.
I predict you’ll never see a Citation, Cavalier, Celebrity, Lumina, or any other FWD car at a classic car show… because flat out… they are not loved nearly as much as their RWD counterparts.
I don’t think GM should just say all RWD or FWD, but I do think that an AWD option on most of their line up would be most benificial.
SAABs could stay FWD, with AWD option. I think the Impala, Monte Carlo, and Grand Prix should all be RWD with AWD options. Also, a small car like the Cobalt SS with rear wheel drive would be fun.
As someone said, if it’s just going to be something to tool around with, FWD is the best bet, but if it’s going to be for fun, then RWD or at least an AWD option should be available.
Oh, and PLEASE GIVE US THE HOLDEN COMMADORE!!! I APPRECIATE GIVING US THE MONARO/GTO, BUT I WOULD REALLY LIKE TO HAVE A COMMADORE, PLEASE!
Mr. Keebler,
FWD vs. RWD is a tactical question. I’m more interested in taking a step back and looking at the big picture: Product strategy. In other words, having GM taking sharper aim at specific market niches and executing. Part of the execution involves FWD vs. RWD, of course.
I’ve lived in the Northeast all my life (including 10 of my driving-age years in Buffalo) and I believe it’s an under-rated point among driving enthusiasts.
It seems like every other car in Buffalo is a Subaru AWD. Conversely when I visit Florida, there’s hardly a Subaru to be seen. Whether purposely done or not, Subaru is being more successful in certain geographic markets than others – people in snow love their Subarus, people in sunny AZ couldn’t care less.
The implication is that playing the geographic niche card should be a viable business/car development goal for GM. Instead of trying to be all things to all people (and end up being nothing to no one), Saturn/Buick should have certain products tailored to Sunny areas and others to Snowy areas. e.g. a small or medium RWD Saturn coupe with giant windows/ moon roof and sophisticated interior materials. Won’t sell a lick in the North, but execute well and you’ll sell scads in FL, AZ, CA, etc. Buick doesn’t have much of an identity right now, so why not aim it at the midwest and northeast? you’ve already started with that practical but silly “heated windshield fluid” campaign for the Lucerne and your buick SUV’s and x-overs… Why not solidify that with a line-up of exclusively FWD, AWD, and SUVs. Staid, but solid with durable weather-toughened materials inside and out. Buick – kinda nice, but really tough. Or more concisely: Buick – Pretty. Tough.
Leave the RWD to Pontiac, Saturn, Caddy.
Sorry to be vague and rambling. You guys are the car experts, not me. =)
Having owned both front and rear wheel drive compact and/or sub-compact cars (remember the Chevette?), I can say that I prefer RWD over FWD any day of the week. Not only do FWD have the horrible understeer, but when they have enough torque and power to actually be driveable they develop front end side slide in winter weather. With a rear wheel drive, I can control the “skid” with throttle and counter-steer. With front wheel drive, the only correction is kill the power. My Chevette with it’s underperforming 1.6l would out-drive any Cavalier/Sunbird/Sunfire/Cobalt ever built.
But then again, I’m not the demographic you’re looking for. I’m middle aged, bought only GM for 25 years, before buying a Civic Hybrid in ‘04.
Though it exhibits all of the undesirable features of FWD, it has excellent fuel economy, better than EPA on the highway, and the fit, finish, quiet, and comfort are far superior to any GM I’ve ever owned. Too bad GM was too lazy or cheap to capitalize on their ownership of ElectoMotive Division and market hybrids years ago, I might never have bought the superior quality of the Honda. I can say that I will be first in line if Honda ever builds a rear wheel drive compact, hybrid or not. And I no longer even look on the GM lots.
Ther will never be a FWD car that can hold a candle to RWD. FWD is inferior and by its very nature obsolete wiht todays snow tires and traction-control-systems.
I understand why cars like the Malibu and Aveo are FWD but if it were up to me the Cobalt, Monte Carlo and Impala, G6, Bonneville, DTS, Lucerne and perhaps even the Grand Prix would all be RWD with AWD avaible for one or wo of them so that those in severe clmates can still enjoy the fun of drivig a decent car instead of some FWD blandwagon.
I’m 26 years old and I’ve owned a lot of GM cars…. all of them used to varying degrees. I want to buy a new car from GM since I’m a GM fanm of the highest order but I will never buy a FWD car of any type of vehicle for that matter…
I dedsperately want GM to turn things around and start thriving in the marketplace. If the ‘06 Impala was RWD I might buy one… or if the G6 was RWD the Girlfriend might have considered it but asz it stands I remain a GM fan who can not find a decent GM car to buy wit RWD. A Camaro and 4-door sedan wiht RWD from GM would mean that I’d be buying TWO new cars in the next two years. As it stands the only cars that make me want to take on a new car payment are the Chrysler 300C & Dodge Charger R/T… I also like Fords BOF cars but the Crown Vic & Grand MArq. look ancinent. Those cars are about 6 years overdue for a facelift. I hope when they do get overhauled they remain RWD… perhaps I’ll buy one of those and put my Ford hate aside if GM still does surveys about RWD and keeps cranking out FWD cars for everyone who can’t afford a VEtte or Cadillac.
Simple Bob, GM hasn’t had this much trouble deciding FWD vs. RWD or AWD in its’ past….so why now? Lost your way? Do we need Alfed Sloan, Harley Earl,Bill Mitchell,Kettering and Ed Cole to come back from the dead? GM had always known before what and when to introduce a benchmark vehicle. i.e. ‘38 Cadillac, ‘49 Cadillac, ‘55 Chevrolet, ‘53 Corvette, ‘60 Corvair, ‘63 Corvette, ‘64 Riviera, ‘63 Tempest, ‘64 GTO, ‘66 Toronado, ‘68 Corvette, ‘69 Grand Prix, ‘69 Camaro, ‘70 Chevelle, ‘70 Monte Carlo……..on and on and on…Did they ask back then if the public wanted these cars that way? Enough polls, enough questions…just read GM History…it’ll get you all through.
Jack,
I have to give you credit, this is the first posting in a year which GM asks their customers for their opinion in a poll-it should be done more often.
My vote would go to a compact rwd mid-engine coupe (just like the Fiero GT). It would meet your goal of having a well packaged interior due to having a rear mounted tranny, freeing up interior space. The car is low mass at 2500-2800 lbs with a 5* crash rating. A mid-engine would have great poor weather traction due to its rear weight bias. In a mid-engine, if you start fishtailing in the snow,let off the gas and most times the heavier rear end will pull you back in line. On a windy road course, the fiero is very competitive with Corvettes even today. Who needs the extra weight of awd, when this type of setup launches from a start just like awd.
GM would have little competition in this segment, the car could be built on the kappa or y platform. The fastback style of the 86-88 Fiero GT would give the Nissan Z a run for its money with the right engine.
Just like Camaro, the Fiero has a huge following. Does anyone at GM ever look at what a 88 Fiero GT or a 87 Buick Grand National are selling for today on the open market? What is ironic is that some of the most valuable GM cars of the last 20 years are those that the company cancelled. Then we hear about building “gotta have” cars, well here are two that fit that description, yet where are they?
As far as FWD, the new Cobalt looks to fill the bill. It has an excellent slalom time, but do your potential customers know this? GM’s marketing needs improving, my resume is on your website, take a look.
I agree that each has its advantages and disadvantages. I’ve driven both RWD and FWD cars, and I have to say that I perfer RWD. Some may argue that RWD cars are unsafe in certain weather conditions, but I also think that the driver is a major variable in these conditions. So, my final opinion is (obviously) RWD. I just like the way they feel, the way they drive. I am a 22 year-old college student. I am performance oriented when it comes to choosing cars. That is not to say that I don’t appreciate FWD cars. I love the Cobalt SS Supercharged and would love to own one, but for me nothing beats RWD.
GM has, without fail, failed, again and again, at producing any form of respectable automobile. Converting legendary cars such as the Monte Carlo and Impala to front wheel drive, and also ruining the reputation of the entire Cadillac brand. There is absolutely no acceptable reason for a forty or fifty thousand dollar “luxury” vehicle to be propelled by the front wheels, well, other than profit margin. I think people are growning tired of seeing the same generic cars being repackaged. Not only the cars, but also SUVs as well (Equinox? honestly…). So when do we get a front wheel drive Corvette? Silverado? GTO? I wonder if GM engineers tried to fit the Caddy Sixteen’s engine in sideways before they realized it wouldn’t fit..?
In all seriousness, keep the economy cars (cobalt, ion, and so on and so forth) front drive. Bring back rear drive family sedans (Bonneville, Impala, the Buick line). Give us something along the lines of a Pontiac G6 with rear drive. The Solstice was a step in the right direction, but it was a much better effort about fifteen years ago when it was called a miata. It’s simply not enough. Stop throwing us crap like the Lacrosse. If you’re going to do something, don’t shoot for mediocre. Make the Monte Carlo what it should be. Drop the Camaro concept, no one was buying them before because they were uncomfortable and overpriced but you pushed the GTO on us anyway, PLEASE just let it die and move on. And last, but certainly not least: FOR GOD’S SAKE, please destroy the HHR, it’s a disaster, it’s a painfully obvious and complete rip-off and it’s just disgusting to look at. It may take some time but i think we can forgive that one.
P.S. that whole thing about noticing the trend, and then deciding to start the survey… typical GM. Why don’t you try creating the trend, not just following it?
As longtime GM owner (current crop: Camaro Z28, Chevy Venture, Buick Regal, Olds 88) I prefer rwd where practical in performance models. I’m OK with fwd on the minivan, and somewhat ok with it on the Regal, although I’d probably be happier if it were rwd as well. RWD is a must on all vehicles putting a premiium on performance. The truth is, the performance fwd cars I’ve driven bore me with their understeer and scrabbling while accelerating out of tight turns of the type we have in the NW corner of South Carolina.
All full-size vehicles should be rear-drive, a la DaimlerChrysler LX-platform. Higher-end mid- and mid-large sedans and coupes should also go this way. That means, anything bigger than a Malibu should go RWD. MAKE THE NEXT IMPALA REAR-WHEEL-DRIVE. Please.
Keep FWD for the econoboxes, however, a smart little RWD hot-hatch would be nice for Chevy powered by either an NA version of the 3.6L VVT engine (like the 2.8L used in Caddy BLS/CTS, or the t’charged 2.8L in the SportCombi), or the turbocharged 2.0L Ecotec. Relegate the old cam-in-block engines to base-model cars ONLY. Mid-level trim and higher should use the high-feature DOHC LY7 and its derivatives. KEEP Saturn, but ditch the plastic. And stop using it to prototype Chevys (ex: goofing up the Ion to know what works and what doesn’t work for use on the Cobalt.) Also, if you scrap the plastic, keep the uniqueness of the Saturn brand alive with the great customer service offered (BTW, I drive a ‘92 SL1 with 405,000 km given to me from my father who bought it new, and who also owns a 1999 or 2000 SL1.)
Another thing – do away with the 4T45-E and all its other 4-speed God-foresaken variants. I love myself, but no one else in North America does. You need to spend a little money to make a little money. And fire all of your bean counters; don’t let Kerkorian TOUCH my beloved General Motors by buying more stocks; and hire Roger Penske and give him half the seats on the board of directors
p.s. I’m 23 so I’m pretty sure I’m in your target demo.
Definately front wheel drive is the way to go. I live in the mountains and with the horrible weather, front wheel drive is a necessity. This is a good place to give my thoughts on a super small car for the American market.
The Daewoo made Aveo is a bit like Harley Davidson importing an oriental scooter and slapping a HD badge on it. It only serves to cheapen the Chevy name. GM needs to make an American made small car and something definately more exciting than the current Saturn offerings.
I do have some design suggestions for a subcompact car for your line up. Small cars can be popular in the US if it is made right. Look at the Mini Cooper. Most Minis have a two tone color scheme. A small car needs to be made to look bigger and visually exciting. This can be done with creative use of color and lines. Look at the Smart Four car. The smart four passenger cage is painted in a standard color and the body panels are in another. The panels can be mixed and matched to make a custom design vehicle. The Citroen Pluriel can be a hardtop, or a completely open sunroof (ala a 2CV) or the roof could be completely removed. It too, also comes in a two tone color scheme. The point is this; Along with the lines in the car, you can create better and more exciting contrast and depth through color and options. This would also provide an appropriate answer to Toyota’s Scion.
GM needs to have an American made small car in it’s line up. For me personally, I’m more worried aout buying foriegn oil from people who hate us than I am about buying a foriegn car. Give us a fuel efficient car, please.
I wish someone would make an inexpensive ($15,000-$20,000) RWD econo-sports car.
It might be an easier sell if it were a VW Golf-like car since it would have some utility.
The kappa platform would be a good start, but can it be made into a 4-seat car?
How about another GM survey?
Those of you that, like me, are disappointed with the lack of response to the "Tell GM About It" campaign have another shot. GM’s fastlane weblog is asking directly for your comments about front-wheel-drive vs rear-wheel-drive vs AWD:Ou…
I’m sure there are many other comments like mine when it comes to Saab: FWD is a part of Saab’s heritage. Please leave them alone! As a long-time Saab owner, I like them turbocharged, FWD and different!
As far as cars in general, I don’t think that one strategy works for all vehicle types. Rear drive is better for the big muscular sedans (Impala SS and Caddy STS) and for the big-displacement sports cars (Corvette, Camaro). Front drive is probably more appropriate for the sport version of a people mover like the Vibe.
I’m 29 and I have to say that FWD is fine for most cars, and mini vans, but anything that you want to be considered sporty, better be RWD or AWD. (like an Impalla SS, should be AWD if its a FWD car normally.) Most importantly of all, I like the new Camaro design, and I hope that GM continues to be imaginative with its designs. After watching the Barret-Jackson auction on TV, I would say that taking styling clues from older models definetly would make me come back to buying GM. Right now my biggest complaints are boring styling (look at just about any Chevy) and very poor interior quality. (Lots of hard plastic and poor fit and finish over all.) Most importantly, everything seems to be about 5-10K too expensive for what the competition is offering. My dad and grandfather bought GM’s religiously since the 50’s, since my ‘01 Trans AM, I haven’t even considered one, since I had such a bad experience with it. Quality, Style, and Price are what will bring me back into the show room. And if you want the Camaro to sell, price it about 28K loaded. If its more than that, there are lots of better options out there. And in the end, don’t forget about gas mileage. That’s never going to go out of style.
I own a Saab 9 3 Aero, 2004, 6 speed. My cousin owns a 2004 330 sedan, and my dad a 2002 330 coupe. Their cars cost more and have nicer interiors, however, I like the fact with the Saab, I do not look “Rich.” My car drives very well, and during normal driving I do not notice the torque steer. But, I would like it to be rear, or all wheel drive, with limited fuel economy penalty. I get 26 in town and 32 on freeway at 75 mph. I believe awd, and rwd, seem premium over fwd. The interior is a little cheap as well, but the exterior is second to none. The car is over all great, and I probably will buy another.
I have written before that I bought a Titan after owning many GMC trucks. I just traded in the Titan, got killed on trade, and got a new Duramax GMC crew cab. I will not buy another transplant pickup, you guys have that package down. The titan got 11 mpg and had 7 trips to dealer for warranty work.
Build the Camaro, GTO, Corvette, Cadillacs, and maybe a large sedan RWD, make Saabs AWD, and FWD. Build the camaro, you need a halo for Chevrolet like that. I would not buy a corvette, too disco, but I think I would buy a camaro.
it really depends more on the character you are trying to achieve with the vehicle and the driver demographics of the particular market you’re trying to hit.
i greatly prefer RWD in all conditions except ice, and if i must choose an alternative i’d pic AWD.
as i’m sure you know, FWD is advantageous in the first few seconds of starting a car from a stop in bad weather, after that its pretty much at a constant disadvantage from a driving and handeling veiwpiont. too much weight over front wheels that are to easily overwhelmed from trying to do 3 things at once!
i say this from personal and practical experince. for 3+ years i drove a 300+hp supra and toyota soarer in the regularly foot+ snow falls of northern japan.
i had a FWD car that was intended for winter, but it was constantly out classed in the all around handeling and emergency manuever department by both of the RWD cars when they were equiped with top of the line snow tires! in fact, i NEVER got stuck or had a “close call” when driving those cars. my legend on the other hand was constanly sliding around and “plowing” thru curves and turns that where easily negotiated with a practiced driver in a RWD car.
if performmance is the objective RWD and front or rear wheel based AWD is best, but for all else and considering the “average driver”, FWD can be made to work….
It makes no difference — your dealer network will charge over MSRP (like Solstice and Corvette) and drive all the customers to foreign competion anyway. RIP GM.
Instead of talking about cars I don’t know like some here is what I Know.
I’m a 20 yr old guy with a brand new Cobalt SS 2.4L. I’m going to speak for my bud as well since we share many of the same opinions (same car). For two years before the ‘balt I used two 4wd Blazers (94 and 01).
I took the balt out to experiment on the icy winter roads in upstate ny. I dare say this little FWD with traction control and modest four season pirellis felt more confident than a blazer with 4wd.
I’ve only driven two other FWD vehicles a Ford minivan and my girl’s 05 honda civic (almost got one myself). Those things yanked the wheel the torque steer is so bad. Jumping in to test the Balt I was cautious.
I was very pleased to realize the car had a more neutral feel meaning I didn’t feel like I was being pulled around. Understeer is pretty slight in most cases and I do drive this thing pretty hard.
On the other hand I’m still left drooling over the Evo and WRX, or more precisely the AWD. Having seen what an AWD compact can do I have to say they look extremely fun to drive. Don’t bother with RWD in the smaller cars. Though I miss knowning what the rear wheels are doing through the throttle use the space for AWD. A limited production AWD Cobalt hovering under 30 thousand I’d have saved the extra cash.
Save the RWD for the muscle cars and upper level sedans.
P.S. Take the chance to super/turbo the 2.4L Cobalt. Offer some back door option before we do it ourselves.
A rwd compact sedan and coupe is NEEDED to help GM stand out. Please don’t be the last one to the game again.
A/RWD on Impala / Grand Prix or bigger. FWD for the econboxes and other appliances we have to sell for market share
I am an engineer, early-mid 20’s, working in the Detroit area automotive industry. I currently own a Cadillac CTS and plan to soon purchase a CTS-V. I have a great passion in seeing GM succeed and feel the company has the ability to succeed with the right effort. The biggest problems I see preventing this are: certain planning and marketing directions of the company, and at times the inability to recognize that public conception is not easy to overcome unless segment leading vehicles are introduced. I plan to address your question of which drivetrain layout consumers are interested in (from my prospective), but I also plan to address shortcomings and try to give some advice.
By poor planning and marketing I mean: not always containing the ability to take risks and stand out with product development, market penetration, and promotion. Try defining and developing new market segments instead of waiting until it is too late. Also, use advertising to your advantage and be expressive with your advertising. As in the case with Cadillac, try to avoid incorporating a 1970’s rock song into every commercial! In my opinion, this does no good in promoting your product to newer generation customers and relates the cars to being somewhat “old school”. Use each brands strengths and current positive perceptions to promote them. Such as the popularity of Cadillac, especially Escalade, among hip-hop and sports cultures, as well as today’s newer generation. Use the 427 cid heritage of the LS7 7.0L to promote the product. This also goes for GM’s OHV V8’s. These engines are amazing and have huge amounts of credibility, yet most do not recognize them as a common engine (LS”X” engines and Vortec truck engines are not commonly referred to being related by many consumers which is a potential disadvantage given each engines huge success). Use the most famous and iconic engine name in history, the Small Block (Chevrolet) to your advantage. Why do you think the “HEMI” is so successful today? Maybe for the same reasons as the heritage of the 427(Big Block), and other famous GM Small Blocks! Use the SS name (which the division is doing) to your advantage this is also an iconic name in Chevrolet cars. Use racing heritage, muscle car heritage, etc. to your marketing advantage. This is something most import manufacturers simply cannot do. Allow consumers to recognize segment leading quality, fuel economy, safety, etc. Also, make commercials funny, interesting, expressive, and intense, rather than being boring and bland. This does make a huge difference in public perception.
After reading through most of the posts here, it is obvious that many people would prefer RWD or RWD with AWD option when compared to FWD layouts in performance/sporty-oriented vehicles. Myself, I prefer RWD in all cases due to better vehicle dynamics. I have driven both FWD and RWD in snow related areas of the country including Western States where I grew up, and in the Mid-West, and Eastern states. As many others have said, I feel that with today’s traction control, stability control, transmission controls, and the correct tires, RWD is a viable option in all areas.
Most people who will look and post at this site will tend to be classified as more of an automotive enthusiast type. However, in order to make a business case, and please the remaining public, it is important to look all aspects.
As a company, I feel it is necessary to provide a more distinct brand direction. I feel that the company has made great strides in the recent years to provide this however; there is a need to make this distinction more recognized:
Cadillac: I am very impressed with this division’s effort. This brand contains the capability of being world class within the near future. As far as vehicle layouts, I feel that all vehicles within the Cadillac lineup need to be RWD or RWD with AWD as an option. I feel that making the DTS a FWD vehicle was a mistake. Although you were trying to appeal to the “past” Cadillac customer, I feel that this could have been accomplished with the same styling as the DTS, but based off the Sigma chassis with AWD as an option. I feel it is OK to contain one small lower cost/entry level FWD car in the Cadillac lineup, as has been done with the European BLS. Please bring this to the U.S.! However, all other cars in the Cadillac lineup need to be ONLY RWD with possible AWD option. Also, Cadillac desperately needs a flagship model to compete with the BMW 7 series, Audi A8, etc. This is the vehicle to make world class and show GM’s capabilities. As for styling, the current Cadillac styling is in the right direction although lower rooflines and higher beltlines are desperately needed. Use the Chrysler 300 and new Mercedes models rooflines and beltlines as examples. Also, although the STS, DTS, and SRX have nice Cadillac “art and science” styling cues, there design is almost reaching into a slightly bland area. (STS is almost there, but something is missing from the rear end styling, it is not bold enough. However, the front-end styling is very nice.) On the other hand I feel that the CTS, XLR, Escalade, and BLS (other than the large distance between the beltline and roofline on the BLS) have amazing styling. The Cadillac V-series is the best thing the brand could have introduced. Please stick to the amazing vehicles the V-lines are introducing. Stick with nothing short of 6 speed automatics (at minimum) and DOHC engines in the future Cadillac lineup. However, I feel GM’s LS based V8’s have plenty of credibility to be used in V-series models and Escalade models (as has been seen with the CTS-V and could be possibly used in a flagship model if power is an issue). Also, try offering 6 speed manual options in all V-series models. It would also be very nice to see some turbo DOHC V6’s and even V8’s in the Cadillac lineup.
SAAB: I feel that SAAB has the most potential of growing into GM’s new North American hot company if and only if done correctly. The main reason for this being that I feel this brand does not have a negative public conception in North America as much as other GM brands do. My advice, leverage on the brands European heritage and have a turbo engine and manual transmission option available for every vehicle within the brand. I feel that SAAB should be GM’s brand known for AWD sporty, performance based vehicles. If FWD needs to be retained due to cost restraints, then at least have an AWD option. Nothing less than DOHC engines and 5 or 6 speed automatics and manuals should be acceptable within the SAAB brand. Use this division, along with Cadillac, as your new technology test bed brand. Updated, expressive styling is desperately needed for the 9-3 and 9-5. Think BMW, newer Lexus styling with SAAB heritage design cues.
Chevrolet: For heavens sake, bring back the CAMARO, along with a convertible, and a sporty/mid-lux sedan that is RWD with a possibility of AWD capability. I think the huge positive public response to the Camaro concept should tell you this is a highly wanted vehicle in the Chevrolet division. Also, offer at least two LS based V8’s and at minimum a 5 or 6 speed auto with 6 speed manual option in the Camaro, convertible, and Sedan. A base V-6, preferably DOHC with 5 or 6 speed manual would be ideal. Followed by an LS2 with 5 or 6 auto and 6 speed manual option. In the SS models offer nothing short of 450-500 hp in the form of a 6.2L Escalade based GENIV engine or LS7 based engine along with a 6 speed manual. The RWD phase is not a fad or temporary market shift. RWD is here to stay and will dominate as long as quality, performance derived vehicles are around. GM should not have to look at Chrysler and Ford’s success to realize that RWD NEEDS to be offered. RWD passion has never left the market place, it was only that most car companies strayed away from it during the 80’s and 90’s and nothing within the price range was available. Bottom line, establish more quality RWD cars with a base V6 and at least two optional V8’s nothing short of a 5 or 6 speed auto with 6 speed manual available and people will come with money in hand. Beings how Chevrolet is GM’s core brand, FWD cars such as the Cobalt, Aveo, and Malibu are necessary, but please offer more RWD with possible AWD option coupes and sedans in the Chevrolet Division. (By the way amazing job with the C6 Corvette, especially the ZO6. The ZO6 is nothing short of amazing and is redefining its segment. Build all cars to this world class, segment leading caliber and say goodbye to the competition.)
Pontiac: Pontiac NEEDS to be a brand that takes risks and focuses on RWD (great job with the Solstice) with AWD option vehicles and possibly contain one or at maximum two FWD vehicles. Come back with a new GTO which uses the same design direction as the Camaro concept meaning: leverage the GTO heritage, but not completely retro as with the Challenger. Develop a GTO as well as a “G8″ Sedan with shared underpinnings and powertrain as the Camaro and Chevy Sedan, but allow the Pontiac models to take more risk with styling and interior design. Also, a possible LS2, LS7, or 6.2L Kappa based Solstice and Chevrolet counterpart would be amazing!
Buick: Buick desperately needs a modern RWD with possible AWD brand flagship. I feel that the Lucerne is a very good looking car and would be smash hit if it were a RWD chassis with AWD capability. Should have used Sigma chassis for this vehicle and moved AWAY from the 4 speed auto. No Buick should contain anything less that High Feature V-6 (DOHC) or Northstar derivative and 5 or 6 speed automatic. I am very impressed with the Enclave concept. Keep a production model close to the concept and I feel you will have a very successful vehicle.
Saturn: I feel that Saturn is another GM brand with a lot of potential and decent customer perception. With the new Sky, Aura, and crossovers, I am pretty happy where this division is going. This division is your number one potential Import fighter! Focus on high quality FWD cars with FWD/AWD crossovers, and always keep a sporty RWD two seater such as the SKY in Saturn’s lineup. Further, A RWD or RWD/AWD flagship sedan could work to this brands favor. Never stray away from anything less than DOHC and 5 or 6 speed auto and manual transmissions in this division.
Hummer and GMC: Do not lose Hummer no matter what investors say. Hummer has much respect and I feel the H3 is showing to be a hit. This is one of your niche brands that need to appeal only as a rugged 4wd based brand leveraging on its military/offroad heritage. As with the H3 keep up the good interiors, but offer a V8 or turbo I6 version. The I5 in the H3 is struggling to move it. Also, consider more Diesel variants and a possible truck based Hummer. As far as GMC, I feel the brand is in the right direction. Stick with the brand offering truck and full/mid size SUV Chevrolet counterparts that contain a classier more refined look and interior. Keep leveraging on the Denali line as it contains much credibility. Obviously, nothing more than 4WD should be offered in the HUMMER lineup with GMC containing RWD and AWD vehicles.
In Conclusion: Deciding which brand needs what drivetrain layout is a function of division direction and intended appeal. Leverage on the companies RWD with optional V8 and manual option heritage that many non-American manufacturers cannot do. Keep FWD for certain divisions and vehicles as outlined above. ALL division flagships NEED to be RWD with possible AWD option. Build RWD and they will come! Further, vehicle styling and proper powertrains need to be taken very, very seriously in order to win customers back. Be expressive with vehicle styling in every vehicle produced. Learn that Toyota’s bland styling will not work for a company such as GM while trying to change public perception. (I think Toyota is starting to realize that even there own bland styling is not going to succeed for much longer as the other manufacturers are catching up and surpassing in quality and public perception.) Try to move away from OHV V6’s. Although these engines can be made as efficient and powerful as their DOHC counterparts, the public and especially medias negative perception of GM’s OHV V6’s will be virtually impossible to overcome. Try to move to the amazing DOHC V6’s the company has available even though there may be a slight cost penalty. I am glad to see Buick, Saturn, and SAAB use the excellent DOHC V6’s that Cadillac has contained for some time. The same goes for the negative customer and media perception of using 4 speed automatics in newer mid-lux and luxury vehicles as well as SUV’s and trucks. I think it is important to shift towards 5 and 6 speed auto’s in all vehicles and if needed due to cost only use the 4 speed in base model entry level cars. Turbochargers are highly regarded in today’s market and should be a highly considered option. Although superchargers tend to be slightly lower cost and easier to package, the aftermarket loves turbochargers and the public’s perception of turbo’s is overwhelming. Either way use forced induction to your advantage when necessary whether it is in the form of turbo or superchargers. Further, the planning and marketing groups need to take more risks and try to stand out. Don’t wait for other companies to introduce new and exciting products and then follow their direction. This applies to both product and advertising. World-class interiors along with expressive, passionate styling, and class leading powertrains are a must in all segments in order to change public perception and gain market share.
Keep up the good work. I hope this lengthy opinion letter is of use. Here is to a successful 2006, I have great faith in this company! I really appreciate the opportunity to voice an opinion, Josh.
American Car: BIG car, loads of interior room, REAR drive, Bold, Proud, in-your-face aggressive style, and a strong V8. There should be at least one in every line up. Chrysler 300 should not be the exception as we love the small block V-8 as much as their HEMI. Regarding rear drive for smaller cars for the younger crowd, here is my take: A younger audience is much more concerned with individuality. Our cars are indeed a form of utility but even more so, an expression of our style. Therefore, as stated in an earlier reply, niche marketing this demographic is key. Rear-drive/all-wheel drive for aggressive sports applications and front/allwheel for the more pragrmatic among us. But from American Car companies, us demanding youth expect no less than gorgeous BOLD AMERICAN looks, solid quality in the driving experience, and gorgeous interiors (look at the Mini, Mazda 3, Audi A3, New Honda Civic interiors for reference). 0-60 is not as critical as the car’s appearance inside and out and driving dynamics tailored to its targeted audience. No more japanese/german rip-off exteriors (Cobalt, Lucerne, etc) Look to the Chrysler 300 for inspiration. We want those bold looks even in the smaller of our American Cars. Also, in this crowd, factory supported customization is key as we do identify our personal style so much with the cars we drive. I love the Solstice GXP but dont want the exact same wheels, interiors, exhaust sound, as all others who will buy the car. Id go aftermarket, but I want volume pricing, dealer installation quality, and factory warranty. In other words, flexible platforms capable of satisfying the fickle yet demanding tastes of a younger audience are critical. Me personally, I drive a Honda Prelude SH with 200hp. Beautifully built solid front drivers with great handling have their appeal, but any more hp and I wont even look at a front drive (the beautiful Acura TL, TSX, and BMW Mini, which I would buy in a heartbeat with rear drive). And I think I speak for everyone, when I say, we would LOVE to see that Camaro ASAP!! 400hp with that lovely interior n all, charge us if you have to! Ill pay 35k for a 400horse Z28 ss, (make a 350hp more modestly equiped version for 26k) but da**it give me a beautiful interior for my money! (Mustang’s only failure btw, is that its interior looks good from far, but when you get up close, those hard plastics reek of cheap cost-saving moves).
Finally, ff I had to choose one platform for me? No question, a rear-drive/allwheel drive all the way! Just imagine Honda’s new Si with 50 more horses going to the rear wheels!! Youd have a little NSX.
To try and make a coherent and intelligent comment, I will tell you whatI have noticed with the RWD trends, and the situation is with the automarket through my eyes.
Some Trends as I see them.
The American classics such as the Mustang, Camero, the challenger are making a comeback.
Other names such as Mini, Alfa Romeo, possibly Triumph by BMW are returning to the states.(Rumor Triumph RWD)
Powersliding or drifting competitions is becoming increasing popular with the American youth.
(Long Beach Grand Prix had Drifting Event with AE86)
(The latest car movie will be “The Fast and the Furious : Tokyo Drift”)
And how many car movies do we have?
*Bullitt* With Steve McQueen Best Car Movie (Had a Mustang named after a movie, and rose Steve McQueen from the dead for the new Mustang Ad)
AWD models are appearing for those who want performance but not a tailwing like a STI or Evo. (The New Mazda 6)
Car companies are trying to appeal to the youth, even to the extent of one creating a new name. Scion.
However Toyota made the mistake of not offering a RWD car under the scion name. (Excluding the Xb) Again biased but look at this trend.
The AE86. These cars have become quite popular as “grey imports” in recent years even though, for example in Ireland, after Vehicle Registration Tax and other costs have been added the cars (as of 2005) sell for around ‚Ǩ6,000-8,000 – quite a significant price for a car of this age.
The rear wheel drive configuration, combined with the AE86’s light weight (~2300lb curb weight), balance and relatively powerful (and easy to tune) 4A-GEU | 4A-GEC, makes this car still popular, and Toyota is said to consider revivng this classic model.
The majority of the Japanese cars in the states are FF.
*Except the higher priced ones such as the 350z, RX8, S2000, NSX.*
These are exceptions because not everyone can afford these cars.
The only affordable Japanese RWD car is the Miata.
The only affordable American RWD car is the Solstice, and of course as always the Mustang.
___________________________
Now these are again as I said in the beginning what I see as the trends.
I find myself looking for an affordable car with manual transmission and RWD and find my options are very limited.
Now I don’t pretend to powerslide my car on the weekends, or race people at the nearest stoplight with a revived muscle car, but RWD is making its comback.
Hyundai Confirms Development of Rear-Wheel Drive Sports Car.
Saturn: The Curve, as sporty, fun vehicle gives new ideas and meaning to the rather boring image.
Imagine a Saab, with a small RWD model, perhaps a hatchback,with Saabs’ quality, reliability, and performance that gives the people a standard to which the new age of RWD cars will have to measure up to.
Think About It.
Great! What I’m hearing so far is basically:
Aveo/Buick – FWD
Everything else – RWD with some AWD options, and the more horsepower and stick-shift options, the better.
Man, if GM announced that plan tomorrow, I’d probably cash advance all my credit cards to buy GM stock.
How can anyone call RWD is for performance cars, when you can blast past them any day in the snow with FWD. AWD is really not an option fuel economy wise in the long run.
I for on would never ever consider buying a RWD vehicle in a snowy climate. If I had been living in California I might have had other views, but I am not.
I hate front wheel drive!
I own 13 cars,most in various stages of rust and decay but only 1 is fwd.
I wanted to replace the Camry with the Nomad concept shown in 04 and was dissapointed and downright angry when I read that GM cancelled plans to build it.
I need an economy car as well as my toys.The Nomad would have been perfect.It’s time to replace the Camry and I’m looking at used Lexus IS300 so I can get rwd or maybe a v6 Charger.I don’t need a big car but thats about all there is for rwd and I don’t need another open car,I’ve got a 914 and one of the bugs has the rag top sun roof.
I’m also looking into putting a Subaru engine in one of my 56 VWs.Might make a good mileage rwd commuter car.
Just a short list of a few of my cars..
55 Bel Air 4 door,stock 265 V8
55 Nomad,in horrible shape
57 210 2 door sedan,dissasembled
39 Master Delux coupe,rust bucket
I love Chevys but GM refuses to give me new cars to buy so I collect the rusty remains of their former glory.
My econo cars..
2 56 VW bugs
a 59 VW bus
and the vile fwd abomination Toad-ota Camry.
Come on GM..give me a RWD econo car,preferably the Nomad.
Don’t force me to buy another Toad-ota..
pleeease.
FWD makes sense on inexpensive econoboxes for cost savings but from an enthusiast’s standpoint RWD is definitely superior both in terms of performance and driving reward. A sedan like SAAB to have a chance against Audi, BMW, etc. must be RWD or maybe AWD. It also needs a Halo version ala M3, RS4, AMG etc. Maybe it’s because SAAB hasn’t competitively raced anywhere in 25 years but does anyone even take this mark seriously anymore as a driver’s car? I don’t think so. Time for a serious makeover.
I like RWD and enjoy driving RWD. However, being a realist who lives in Michigan, I probably wouldn’t buy a RWD vehicle. I have to make it to work everyday, and when the weather is nasty, I prefer my FWD vehicle. I don’t want to have to pay extra for AWD to make a RWD vehicle “acceptable” for winter. I’ve driven FWD vehicles for over 10 years now, and I’ve never been stuck. I say offer a little of both to please everyone. Just because other manufacturers are making all their vehicles RWD doesn’t mean that GM has to. Be original; be pro-active instead of reactive!
Rear Drive
Better weight distribution
Better handling
Distribution of duties (among the wheels)
I’m a young upwardly mobile professional who wouldn’t think of buying a premium compact sedan from GM. FWD is one of the reasons.
FWD for small economy cars is fine – anything under 200 hp. When power goes up, the desire for it to propel the rear wheels goes up exponentially. The BMW 3-series would not be the nicest driving sport sedan in the world if it were front wheel drive. No SAAB will ever rival a BMW in driving satisfaction as long as it is front wheel drive. Period.
RWD focus would be preferred, but whatever it is should have a manual transmission if you want to get enthusiasts to even look at it.
Above and beyond everything though, you need to ‘add lightness’. Almost every ‘performance’ type of vehicle on the market (with the exception of the C6, C6 Z06…both pretty heavy, but better than the competition…and Lotus’s lineup) is way too heavy. By several hundred pounds.
I drive a 2001 Audi A4 quattro, and my wife drives a 2001 Saab 95 wagon. We love the Saab, but it simply cannot compete with the Audi in inclement weather. So here’s my two cents: I absolutely love the looks of the new 93 sedans, and I’d buy one in a heartbeat if it came in AWD. I live in a small, upscale town in Vermont where AWD isn’t a luxury. It’s a must-have. There are plenty of Saabs driving around town, but there are more Audis even still, because of the AWD. It seems like a no-brainer that you’d offer your sports sedans with AWD. Audi, BMW, even Porsche, are offering AWD for their cars. That’s the league where you guys need to be, in my opinion, and you’d certainly move me over from Audi to Saab.
For Saab, you need to go with FWD/AWD for all the afore-mentioned reasons (heritage, FWD better in non-performance applications, etc.). But you have to have AWD for people who drive in snow and ice, and/or are performance-minded buyers.
I bought a 92X for this (performance) reason, and wouldn’t touch a “real” Saab for the same reason. Saab also needs to get back into rallying as well. Outside North America, this will really pay dividends. People my age (41) may remember Saab’s rally heritage, but not the younger generation.
I don’t want to rant, but if you build a small AWD car, and support it in a rally/racing program, you can certainly cite examples from Subaru and Audi of the types of customers you’d bring in. I think you can get these customers with an FWD/AWD strategy, but you need more performance commitment behind the vehicles than you have had in any recent memory (20 years?), and I think you need to make Hirsch (or some other tuner’s) performance upgrades widely available in the US. Why can’t Saab compete with AMG, ///M, and Audi’s S4,S6, etc.? Try harder, and you will be rewarded.
RWD/AWD/FWD argument should be viewed in terms of the type car you’re selling, here is the line up I would have for GM in USA
Chevy
Aveo-FWD
Cobalt-FWD
Camero-RWD
Malibu-FWD/AWD
Nomad Wagon – FWD
Impala-FWD/AWD
Equinox-FWD/AWD
Uplander-FWD
HHR -FWD/AWD
Corvette RWD
Pontiac
Solstice-RWD
Fire Bird-RWD
Sport Sedan – RWD
GTO-RWD
Buick
Mid Size to small (BMW 318) car RWD/AWD
Mid size car AWD/FWD
Large Car RWD
Crossover FWD/AWD
MID Size SUV-AWD
Large SUV – AWD
SAAB
90 (Vibe) – AWD
93 – FWD/AWD
95- FWD
97-AWD
Saturn
Aglia – FWD
Ion (Vibe like) – FWD/AWD
Sky – RWD
Meriva – FWD
Aura/Astra- FWD/AWD
VUE- FWD/AWD
Montana like Minivan AWD
Cadillac
Similar to Corvette Sport car-RWD
Mid-Size – AWD/RWD
Large Size – RWD
Mid Size SUV-AWD
Large Size SUV – RWD/AWD
Thanks for the opportuntiy to respond. I relize fwd is the mass market. That said you need some inexpensive fun sporty cars. Have your Exec’s PERSONALLY driven any bmw products? Why not buy a new bmw 1 series and reverse engineer it. Make it a fun to drive, high sytle vehicle that offers performance, cache and fuel economy. We need to offer it in both gas and high performance diesel models.
When these vehicles come to market. You need to provide high performance diving schools free as part of the purchase price of the vehicle. You need to emulate Jeep in their life style marketing approach. The people that purchase these types of vehicles are NOT looking for an appliance. They want to buy in and be a part of something exciting and participate with other like minded people.
On another note I really love the Holden comcept car that looks like it came out of the 1940’s. I can not help but think of the buzz and excitement that car would bring. Now is the time to do the hard work and not short cut design or performance. I know you can do it. Good Luck and Good selling. Ron
Whether you choose FWD or RWD has to be based on your intended audience for the car, and you have to make sure that the designers, management, and marketing people are all on the same page about that.
Saab has always been FWD, which is not a performance-oriented layout, because FWD is practical, cheap, light, and also performs well in snow, which they have in Sweden. As a result, Saabs were also good rally cars for a long time: light weight and loose-traction performance are the keys there.
However, the marketing people at Saab don’t seem to grasp all of this. Saab advertising focuses on performance, and I always see it being compared to BMW. FWD Saabs will never handle like RWD BMWs. If FWD really gives space and cost advantages, then the advertising needs to emphasize the extra space, and the price needs to reflect the cost advantages.
You need to ask: “what are the priorities for this car”? You need to ask that every time you design a car, a marketing campaign, and a price point. If you want a car that has a lot of interior room in a small, cheap layout, give it FWD, but make sure you take advantage of the FWD to give it more interior room, and make sure you give it a low price to reflect the cost, and make sure your advertising campaign emphasizes the points that you prioritized in the design, including the extra interior space.
I love my 1999 Saab 9-3. The handling leaves something to be desired, though, which brings me to my next point: if you’re going to put FWD in a high-end car, you need to spend more engineering effort to make sure it handles well. It will never be a BMW 3-series, but all those big rubber doughnuts holding all the suspension components together are a joke. I know the 9-5 handles much better, and from what I hear, the new 9-3 is also much better. Keep working on it, though, because the competition is improving as well.
Should new Saabs be RWD? Depends on what direction you want to take the brand. I’d like to see Saab stay as a safe, practical, economical car that is at the same time more exciting and more luxurious than an Acura or a Buick. To me, that means FWD (but only if you take avantage of all FWD can offer). If you can do it without sacrificing space, Saab dealers would benefit greatly from an AWD option. But don’t build a car that can accomodate AWD and sell an FWD option on the side, or you’ll be giving up the FWD advantages. There will have to be significant differences between the FWD and the AWD. Let the AWD model reflect the additional cost; people will pay it, or at least, it will get them into the dealership where they can buy an FWD version.
I think your question was particularly aimed at small compact/sub-compact cars, which most of use have been ignoring, so I’ll comment on that. In that market, like all others, you need to weigh the advantages and disadvantages. If you make a FWD car that has poor interior space and is heavy and slow, you haven’t accomplished anything. If you use FWD, make sure it has features and characteristics that no RWD car in that class can touch. If you make it RWD, it should be a performance car, and it should target performance enthusiasts as its audience.
To give some specific examples: the Ion should be FWD. However, you need to tear it apart to make it not only competitive with, but better than the Civic. Same with the Cobalt. A small Pontiac should not be targeted at a mass audience. Build it RWD, or if the performance enthusiast market isn’t big enough, don’t waste your time building it at all.
I may have said this in the past… I’m an almost 26 yr old, male, engineer.
Buick – Mostly FWD – maybe 1 exception.
Caddy – Good like it is – mostly RWD, but maybe could use AWD choices.
Chevy (cars) – Mostly FWD – except vette/camaro.
GMC/ChevyTruck – RWD or 4WD
Hummer – See GMC
Pontiac – All RWD, some AWD options
Saturn – FWD, roadster exception
I think you’re asking specifically for SAAB though. I think of SAAB as a FWD/AWD brand, but things can change. Whatever each brand wants to do, it needs to do it better than the target competitors. Plain and simple. So it depends who you want to go after with SAAB. If you want to be BMW, their cars are all RWD. What you should find out if whether most SAAB owners bought it because it was Eurpoean or not… if yes, then it might not be a good idea to listen to people like me – unless you want to change SAAB’s demographic! I think if I bought a SAAB right now, I would probably look at AWD (unless it was too much extra money). That being said, my dream car right now is the Pontiac G8 – which doesn’t even exist yet, but I imagine it to be a RWD/AWD version of the Grand Prix – sort of like a 4DR GTO.
Closing thought – It might be cool to have standard AWD vehicles (to save money by not trying to do 2 things) in segments that don’t normally get them – kind of like the Audi TT has AWD (I think – but most 2 seater roadsters don’t).
FWIW-
Keep Saab FWD, they have been pioneers at this. Lighten the car to maximize the performance w/out excess torque steer, or consider an AWD version.
Used to have a *strong* FWD bias, but that mostly came from overall quality. Early VW (Rabbit, Golf), Honda, Toyota, etc were all FWD and delivered excellent quality compared to American cars of same time period. Small and agile compared to big and lumbering. That put a bit of a “halo” on it.
Getting into Auto-Cross and “performance” driving, I have definitely seen and felt the benefits of a balanced RWD system, or a solid AWD (though there are some weight/complexity issues).
To echo many others:
There is a *huge* unmet demand for a “basic” model coupe/sedan that is RWD, stick shift, “fun to drive” (meaning handling as well as acceleration) priced in the range the majority of cars sell: 17 – 25k.
My interest in “domestic” manufacturers went up (to a level of “I think I would *buy* one of those!) with the Ford 427 concept (smoothed sedan look) that fizzled for me when there were no plans for manual tranny and also the Pontiac “Razr” concept. I was absolutely impressed at the idea of a “basic” car (wind-up windows, no stereo, basic A/C and heat, money in the suspension, engine) that was RWD and a Hardtop. There is potential with a Solstice “Sport-hatch”.
To keep up the refrain- Keep it simple, well-engineered, lightweight, and pay some attention to the “touch points” (steering wheel, seat, gearshift, dash knobs) that often end up terrible in GM cars.
First point: driving dynamics…I’ve owned a 9-3 Viggen 5 door. Great car…except the FWD. It had 230 hp, only about 150 of which would make it onto the ground on a typical day! Nevermind during winter.
My 05 Subary Legacy GT only has 20 hp more. but it’s significantly faster to 60 mph. It also handles better in all road conditions. Thanks to that Subaru AWD system, I’m done wrestling with the wheel.
Second point: FWD in a Saab 9-3 is bad for business
- G35 AWD/RWD
- A4 AWD/FWD
- 3 Series AWD/RWD
- IS AWD/RWD
- C class AWD/RWD
- Legacy AWD
- Mazdaspeed 6 AWD
- S40/v50/ AWD/AWD
HELLO ! Notice the trend? In canada, the 9_3 Sportcombi is the same price as any of the cars mentionned above, for FWD! No thanks.
I think it should be a 50/50 split. I’m naturally RWD biased because a RWD car is better balanced. But, en mass I think the consumer is still FWD or AWD biased.
Hello,
I think SAAB should stick to FWD. That’s what is important difference between other cars in a long term. I’ve not seen any preference for RWD in Europe too. It would be nice to add AWD option though for people who would like to pay for it. I currently drive 9-5 and I have no doubts about it is abilities.
I would like to also thank you GM for sticking with SAAB. Please keep the SAABs what they are. FWD cars with small turbo engines. Please do not try to please everybody like for example Volvo nowadays. From what I see there is a more of perception problem with SAABs now. Cars are very good indeed. People just do not know how good they are or that they even exist.
For statistics, I live in Canada and used to live in the US.
I wish you all luck with SAAB,
Radovan
RWD V8 is the answer. Most of the people against RWD have never driven one. Build RWD and you will RULE again.
I see usefullness in both FWD/RWD/AWD platforms. SAAB always have & always should be FWD. Let’s consider where they come from. Snow, ice, hills, trees. SAABS have always been associated with traction and winter performance. Great combination. Don’t mess with it.
GTO. RWD performance. Great vehicle. Just drive one. Every one I know says it looks like an overgrown Saturn or Cavalier. OK, but the Lemans was not a show stopper in 1964 either. But, why can’t we have the AWD version from AU. That car must be a beast! Let us have the good stuff, too!
Camaro concept. Nice car. Far better than the old one. Build it! GM needs a cult car like the Nissan Skyline. The CTS-V is almost perfect. Make it AWD & its there!
HHR is a nice car. 5 years too late, but a nice car. I see the market having been there and now gone. But the PT Cruiser had a good run while it was here. The Lucerne is great. RWD/FWD? Most people still want the RWD big Buick. They covet those Roadmasters that are left. The market is there. Take it. Station wagons are hot now. Build some. Who wants to drive a mini-van? No one I know. But, there is a market for them out there.
GM needs to be setting the market trends, not getting there as the party ends. We had to have FWD. Just had to have it. Now we dont want it anymore. Seems that the media drives us to what they feel we need to have, not really what we want. GM is making some great vehicles. Even the BMW-elitist media is saying so. We need to get the word out.
I’m an AWD fan. I’m tired of FWD even thought many of the cars I enjoy come that way. I personally think AWD or RWD. Whether the AWD is FWD based or RWD based doesn’t matter to me. The extra two wheels powering the vehicle really makes a car feels safer (to me.)
The lack of RWD cars is the main reason trucks and SUV’s are so popular. I have said for years that RWD is more predictable than FWD. I would buy RWD cars exclusivley, if they were available from my favorite brand…Chevrolet.
I have been a saab driver for close to 30 years. A saab used to be a swede. Now, a blaser? a Subaru? an ople? I have had more fun driving circles around 4 wheel drives for years. Do we need an awd saab. No. Do we want one? I guess. What do the swedes think? What would they build? I don’t think a blaser, then compare it to a grippen. Good grief.
Obviously, in any vehicle claiming to be a “performance” car, FWD is just plain wrong. With the inherent torque steer and bad handling characteristics in FWD, the better choice is RWD. In a cheap little economy car, where handling dynamics just don’t matter, FWD makes sense. For back roads and winter driving, AWD should be an option on as many vehicles as possible. AWD also offers some better sporting capabilities, such as better acceleration and handling at lower speeds.
The issue with the GM lineup of cars is a lack of balance between FWD and RWD/AWD offerings. The RWD Chrysler 300 family of vehicles is not a fluke; it adds balance and flexibility to the Chrysler lineup. FWD has its advantages and for a large part of the market it is the answer. However, these cars will not excite the younger or performance minded drivers. For a driving enthusiast RWD cars are simply more fun to drive. My sons and their friends, all in their early twenties are keen on the compact and sport market and I can assure you they don’t view front wheel drive cars as “fun to drive” or “rewarding”. The cars that turn them on are the Toyota Supra’s, Nissan 240’s & 350Z’s, C5/C6 Corvette, Infiniti G35, Subaru WRX and so on. All cars you can get sideways, steer with throttle and drift through a corner.
As for Saab, people don’t perceive Saab as a Rally superstar like the Subaru WRX. If Saab had the right formula wouldn’t we be selling a lot more of them. What does “proved particularly important in long-distance races” have to do with a car that is an everyday commuter that gets driven briskly for short bursts when the opportunity presents itself? Your statement “At auto shows we’re starting to see many small rear-drive concepts” says it all. The competition gets it and I believe you do as well.
All is not lost, people love the new Solstice and Corvette and they love our muscle cars of the past. We need to introduce, and soon, a no compromise first time home run in this segment. We can we win them over. They would prefer to buy our cars to the imports. Set the benchmark for handling, power, styling, braking and price. Be bold, don’t cut corners, leave the critics with their jaws on the floor and nothing but praise.
We need to pay more attention to this demographic, they need to view our products as performers with great looks, handling, value and quality. These are the future customers of our family sedans, trucks, SUV’s and crossovers if we do it right. We need to exceed expectations, not just have a competitive entry in every segment. It’s time to stop watching the competition and playing catch up. Leap frog the competition, let them play catch up for a while.
Okay. I love RWD as much as the next guy, but I also drive long distances in the wonderful Canadian winter- which makes me want FWD or AWD. Face it, 99% of people aren’t going to be taking their cars to the track, and the majority of people posting here are from one enthusiasts website or another. Sure, I want to see a camaro, and I want THAT to be RWD. But for compacts? Be serious – I (and the majority of drivers) want a FWD car or an AWD car. Can FWD be fun? Of course- I would gladly replace any of my cars with a supercharged Cobalt SS or an SRT-4. The Cobalt SS has been tearing up both drag racing and road racing circuits, so that’s enough credibility for me. The posters here have to realize that not everybody wants a RWD V8 luxo-barge with 500Hp that they can carry six kids in while pulling sub-13 in the quarter. And yeah, I call myself an enthusiast, and I’m in your demographic- 23 year old male just finished college with a good job.
I think there can be good reasoning for using all of the above. FWD/RWD/AWD all have their advantages disadvantages. So you have to look at the target market for a given vehicle.
I think if you’re looking at a small every day econo car, no reason not to make it FWD. If you want a sporty variant of it thats OK as long as the car is set up right to make it sporty.
If you want the car to be an every day car, thats more sporty try RWD, and maybe have an AWD version as well.
I think the sportier you’d like the car’s image to be the more you should lean towards RWD.
Is there a market for small RWD cars? Yes!
Thanks for the Solstice. Now I just need to get my hands on one.
Oh yah. Thanks in advance for the Camaro.
I’m a 27 year old engineer, so I guess you could consider that younger. Also I live about an hour North of Philly so most years we have snow and we have hills to deal with also in the snow. All of my cars are rear wheel drive, and I’m fine in snow up to about a foot plus. For those that are wondering I don’t have traction control in my winter transportation either. In my humble opinion if GM wants to have a car that handles well they need to look at who has set the benchmark now… BMW comes to mind, they are mostly RWD or some AWD. There are other cars that handle well but I didn’t feel like typing forever, I feel the BMW is a very balanced car and a worthy goal to set for handling. The CTS does a great job of getting close to that handling, that car drives awesome and if I had the money I would buy a CTS-V tomorrow, but the cost of a house makes that a no go.
For everyone that is worried about cost or wants a smaller car FWD should be the primary solution maybe AWD option but I figure the cost will be to high for that.
As for SAAB, I don’t really know their FWD history but I think AWD is a good option. When I see FWD I just think someone “CHEAPED” out.
Their are positives and negitives to each platform, but if you ask me a “sporty” car should be a RWD car with as close to possible 50/50 front/rear weight bias. AWD if you can’t get the weight bias right. FWD drive for people worried about their wallets.
Also as a last note, since it just showed up a week or so ago, the Camaro is awesome. Keep it as is with a V-8 and manual trans. A V-6 or something for those that just want looks, but don’t turn into a front wheel drive car. I can’t think of a car with balanced handling that is front wheel drive.
Let me put it this way. It’s a whole package thing. The Saab 9-3 Aero(v6 turbo) ended up in last place in a recent $35K sport sedan comparo. The 2.8 turbo v6 makes less hp than your new 2.0 turbo in the Solstice GXP. What’s up with that? I’m sure you had to tune down the hp in the Saab to avoid torque steer, so a RWD/AWD platform would solve that problem. That way, the 2.8 turbo v6 can be tuned to the near 300hp I know it is capable of. Another thing is GM should be the leader in features in cars. Saabs should have EVERYTHING standard and only option the navigation. Stop following in the shadow of Audi/BMW. Grow a pair and be a leader in this field. While you’re at it, get some better materials in there too. Some better supporting seats, bluetooth, and voice commands. Your “Born from Jets” NEEDS technology to support that claim. Thanks for listening
Front wheel drive or rear wheel drive?
Well, my first reaction is:”what do I care?” I want a car that is fun to drive (the kart-feeling) but also stable at Autobahn-speed (and than I mean way above 200 km/h). FWD is OK with me, but I’m not happy with the torquesteer. RWD is OK with me too, but in snow?
AWD: extra cost, extra weight, extra costs (Although I’m told that concepts like the Getrag twinster is veryyyy fun to drive).
Dear Jack,
You’ve asked for our opinions, and so thank you for offering up the question – I hope you’ll appreciate the feedback – here’s mine.
One can sit all day and argue the semantics of FWD, and how FWD can prove rewarding if set up properly – this is true, however it is not THE performance set up of choice.
Saab has lost its former performance luster, and in its present configuration and in its relatively recent Viggen guise, FWD has hampered its performance, and ultimately its cache and brand image within in its own segment.
Mini does the best job in taking FWD in the performance direction however, Mini’s storied FWD history is legendary and making it FWD lends further credibility to the performance brand. Per se, GM doesn’t have a storied FWD vehicle like the Mini – as a matter of fact, no one does, ONLY Mini and that’s why the “Ultimate Driving Machine” company snapped up the brand – BMW continues to make the ultimate RWD/AWD vehicles and cover their forays into FWD under the Mini brand – perfectly keeping in step with BMW’s long standing performance positioning and that of Mini’s David vs. Goliath rally roots.
In short, RWD = Drivetrain cache in any segment.
Now is not the time to go with what’s safe. Reclaim the heritage of RWD, re-introduce this configuration to the hundreds of millions of Gen Y’er’s whom never had the chance to experience a RWD burnout and/or drift through a mountain road proper in a domestic vehicle. RWD Corolla’s have enjoyed cult-like status amongst hard core performance enthusiasts in Japan and even here in the USA – surprisingly, Toyota has been relatively slow to recognize this however, I’d bet anything that they’re addressing that situation as we speak.
RWD is THE real performance deal – it is authentic – there is no question about it. Saab may have been born of Jets but, perhaps it should have been born RWD/AWD instead.
Thanks for listening
Generally speaking, I’m not interested in FWD cars – RWD is my primary choice, AWD my secondary choice. This blog entry seems keen to push the benefits of FWD, then ask us our opinion on the matter, when it appears your mind is already made up. Also, while you’re discussing the benefits of FWD you failed to mention that it’s cheaper to manufacture, interestingly enough.
There are far too few RWD choices left for buyers, and of those precious few have a manual transmission, which is why my next car will likely be Bavarian.
As a 28 year old i am drawn to AWD, RWD, then FWD. I am a spirited driver and love the sport compacts from Japan that offer RWD and AWD. The Impreza STI, Evo’s, Surpa’s, Skylines are great examples of cars we need to compete with. Most Import tuner considers the above examples superior to anything North America has to offer. I say you COMPETE. AWD Camaro!!!!
Also, since GM is plugging the global vehicles development programs why are they not involved in racing at a world level. NO F1 or World Rally Championships…….An AWD 4 banger with the 2.0 litre turbo ecotec would be a dream come true.
Launching a FWD car is sueless. Sure they are fine 20-120 but the first 60 feet is what can win you a race.
Jack, let me start by congratulating you for coming online and taking some of your time to put these questions forward, and hopefully reading our comments.
Regarding your question, and from a GM fan’s perspective, it all depends on what ‘personality’ GM wants each brand to have. From what I’ve been reading on where different divisions are heading, my 2 cents o what I’d like to see are (will not comment on design or financial aspects, as your question comes from an engineering standpoint):
1. Pontiac – RWD only.
2. Cadillac – RWD/AWD (BLS included!).
3. Buick – FWD/AWD with possible RWD flagship.
4. Saturn – FWD/AWD.
5. Chevrolet – mostly FWD/AWD, but a Camaro would be most welcome.
6. Saab – rear-biased-AWD (FWD for some entry-level versions). Turbocharged engines only.
The ironic thing, is that in the infancy of front-wheel drive, many sports car enthusiasts felt that front wheel drive was superior to rear wheel drive. Of course those were small, light cars, with small engines compared with big, heavy, rear-wheel drive v-8s riding on poor tire technology.
The truth is, there is no single right answer. Some of the market is always going to prefer fwd/awd for its ability to go in the snow and bad weather, and some are always going to prefer rwd for the “feel” of it. There is no single solution that will please everyone.
I can see the demand for a rwd Pontiac compact that would be a spiritual BMW 2002 successor, but I can also see the need for a fwd Saturn that would take on the Japanese cars.
The fwd/rwd/awd arguement is moot. The cars have to be better. Period.
As far as Saab is concerned, they should only make FWD or AWD vehicle. A RWD Saab is not acceptable though an AWD vehicle based on a RWD platform is. On the other hand, Cadillac and Pontiac should be GM’s RWD divisions with no FWD or AWD vehicles based on a FWD platform under those brands. Chevy, Buick, and even Saturn to a degree should be mixed between RWD and FWD.
-Chevy should concentrate on RWD coupes like the Camaro, Chevelle, Monte Carlo, and obviously the Corvette in addition to a RWD Impala sedan.
-Pontiac as already mention would be all RWD be the poor man’s American BMW as Bob Lutz intends with compact and midsize vehicles sold in a variety of styles (sedan, coupe, etc.)
-Buick can be split between premium sedans that are FWD and more expensive near-luxury sedans that are RWD. Buick does not roadsters and coupes especially given the fact that Buick is part of the combined Pontiac-Buick-GMC hierarchy.
-Saturn already has the Sky already and could add RWD coupe along the lines of the Curve concept and a RWD flagship based off the Opel Insignia concept.
-Cadillac would continue being all RWD but expand to include both larger and smaller vehicles to compete with the best of BMW and Mercedes.
Compelling vehicles and brands that sell well is the business goal.
So why are Solstice and GTO the only RWD Pontiacs? What is Pontiac without the driving experience? People buy the GTO based on how it drives, not because it resembles a Grand Am coupe from the ’90s.
Just like the Camaro concept, GM should make all their cars into modern interpretations of their ancestors. That may mean design cues, but it should definitely mean the soul of the car… just like the GTO.
A RWD or AWD compact (or ANY sized car) would fit into Pontaic’s brand. Leaving mass market sales to the Malibu might be a fine trade for making a strong entry into the Audi TT // BMW 1-to-3 series // Merc C-class // Infinit G // Mazda RX-8 // etc. market segment. A well performing RWD Pontiac sport compact could steal plenty of sales that are otherwise going only to import manufacturers.
Pontiac, in particular, does not need a minivan. It does not need an SUV. It does not need a 7-passenger crossover vehicle. It does not need to sell rental fleet vehicles. A full size, RWD Pontiac Grand Prix sedan would make perfect sense. I believe a wagon version could look good and I would buy one myself. This vehicle could even modified for patrol vehicle use.
And since I mentioned the RX-8, those rear doors (like the Ion Coupe) are the key to making coupes a viable choice again! As much as I’d love a G6 GTP coupe (or GTO), I couldn’t justify it for any family use until my kid(s) are old enough to belt themselves into the back seat. What a PITA!
If I am looking for a fun-to-drive car (and I always am), I would not even consider a front wheel drive vehicle. Rear wheel drive is the way to go. Front wheel drive and performance driving just don’t go together. Let’s start with the problem that the dynamic weight transfer during acceleration moves weight off the wheels that are trying to provide traction. Now add in torque steer. Plus all the extra weight of drive shafts and their related assemblies which are taking away from steering feel. And finally just the fact that all the weight of the engine and transmission is hanging out there (usually) IN FRONT of the front axle which hurts the handling balance and increases the polar moment of inertia of the car.
I would love to see on the market a simple, reasonably priced rear wheel drive car, with independent suspension all around, and a manual transmission. Think BMW 2002. (The current BMW 3 series is much to big and technologically assisted.) There are plenty of us around who really want a car to drive where we can feel the car and feel the mechanicals. A numb conveyance may be fine for some, but not for us.
A nice stable of RWD cars for GM’s American brands sounds great to me. Offer a nice large RWD sedan for Chevrolet along with a FWD alternative. Pontiac should be completely RWD for differentiation purposes. Eiter that, or 4 RWD cars and 1 small FWD coupe. Saab: AWD.
Rear wheel drive is the smoothest ride and should come with positrac rear ends. Your personal focus upon yet more small cars will lead you into a large mass of already saturated and scarcely differentiated products. GM and its designers would do far better to focus on discontinuing the poorly engineered and underpowered Colorado and Canyon and start from scratch to build an attractive, comfortable, well-powered mid-sized truck. This time the focus on it’s manufacture should be on the quality, utility, and strength of its components. For example, build the doors to match and compliment the feature lines of the vehicle. Don’t build the box platform as an ill-fitting jigsaw puzzle with large ugly putty seams,but stamp it as a single piece for strength and longevity. Finally, the 4.3 engine is a proven engine and at least belongs in a small pickup. Five cylinder engines that can generate 220-240 hp might be more utile in a compact garden tractor- not on the roadways. GM should look to its historic success stories and quit niggling with blame games, politically motivated managerial structures, and treating people as lower than whale refuse whether they be employees or customers. Build quality products and they will come as in Field of Dreams. Build limited runs or retro ‘55′56′57 chevy convertibles and watch the stampede into the showroom. I would like to twist the ears of the GM pencil pushers and let them know that I’ve lived with GM many years now and I have never seen mgt. so determined to close off receptivity to anything said by the people who make their livings for them. The products and ideas are out there in the ether- Reach out and gather it and turn this ” American” business around!
I’d rather have a Pontiac G6 with a V6 driving the rear wheels than a Grand Prix with a V8 driving the front wheels.
Rear wheel drive doesn’t have to automatically equal a 4000 pound V8 family sedan. (although a GM equivalent of the Dodge Charger would be nice now that I’ve got a kid. Babyseats in a 2001 Trans Am are a tight fit.)
I’m glad GM had the guts to build the Solstice, and I hope they sell well, but I’ve been waiting for a RWD family sedan now for years. (The GTO doesn’t count for me because GM decided not to sell it in Canada or I would have bought one…)
I think GM should have a mix of FWD/AWD and RWD cars. For me, it’s like pushrods vs OHC… in theory OHC is better, but in the realworld, the valvetrain choice means pretty much nil in regular driving, but people get sucked into buzzwords like VTEC, even as my Trans Am sucks their doors off. RWD has a “reputation” for some people for being a handful in the snow, but for others, FWD has a reputation for crappy handling and torque steer…
You need to build and sell what the people want. I want RWD. I won’t buy a FWD car. Period. If that means my next car is a Dodge or a BMW then that’s GM’s loss, I can’t wait for a GM RWD sedan forever. (Here’s a Hint: I’m going to buy a BMW 3 series if GM doesn’t ever build a midsize sedan with RWD.)
I live in Trollhattan, I know for a fact that a Saab 9-3ss V6 on good tires can be driveen around the Nurburgring at laptimes that would open quite a few eyes to the possibilites of a well tuned FWD car. Do an official test…!
I can see a rwd Saab if it’s the right car…like a twoseater small coup√© or convertible. For larger cars I thik FWD with AWD option would be the way to go. You want to keep your current customers and attract new ones, not alienate the old ones by going RWD on cars that dont need it.
“Make FWD cars for people that can’t control their vehicles, like those who posted above. Make FWD cars for people who don’t care about driving, just getting there. Make FWD cars for people who don’t know what FWD means. They want them.”
Ah, so that’s why the Renault Clio Trophy monstered all the best sub-¬£50K performance cars of 2005 in Evo Magazine’s Car Of The Year feature (and if you don’t know about Evo, you belong to the above group of drivers IMHO), and then went on to to take THIRD PLACE in the supercar group, which included the F430, Murcielago SE, Porsche Cayman, BMW M6 et al?
In a compact, light car, properly sorted FWD dynamics are a thing to behold, more accessible to the vast majority of ‘enthusiast’ drivers, massively more exploitable than big, powerful RWD cars over a wider range of driving circumstances. On many of our B-roads in Europe, a Cooper S would be all over your Corvettes and Camaros.
The problem is, all our best hot hatches haven’t made it into the USA, with the exception of the MINI. So the average Northern American’s view of the RWD/FWD/AWD debate would be skewed to say the least. And dare I say, most of your roads aren’t that demanding compared to what we’re faced with on a daily basis here?
I own a MINI which pretty much is the benchmark for FWD dynamics (discounting hardcore versions of hot hatches sold in Europe, like the aforementioned Clio), but I also have a highly modified 1985 Saab 900 Turbo that I take to track days, and which even tops the MINI on its number one party trick, turn-in sharpness (oh, and most RWD cars I encounter on the track mainly spin out in front of me at speeds that are barely sufficient for me to keep my Toyo Trampio R1Rs at a decent working temperature ;o) ). So it can be done.
And yes, my third car will be a TVR, and you can’t get more RWD than that. So don’t write me off as an FWD apologist – I’ve driven 300+ new cars in my days as a car hack and I’ve experienced the heights and depths of each drive principle. It’s all in choosing the correct one for the application, and the execution – personally I think excess weight and those cheap-a** front struts are harming our cars’ dynamic qualities more than either drive principle could.
The bottom line? Saab should ditch all the misguided attempts to widen their audience – if they’re losing their customers to glorified pick up trucks in the US, they’ve been hitting the wrong target audience anyways – and become a focused brand much like MINI. Saab’s focus should be performance and practicality. What’s Saab’s background? Rallying and jet fighters. What should a Saab be, then? A sturdy, rugged, well-engineered, all-weather performance car with no excess frills or weight, simply and elegantly designed. Much like a good British hi-fi amplifier – pure and simple, less buttons and spurious features than Far-Eastern sourced mainstream stuff, and no vast arrays of transistors and HUGE power supplies etc (giving better performance in theory, but creating their very own set of challenges and complications) like high end American machinery. Offering useable, accessible, real world performance close to what a proper sports car could achieve on a good day, but offering that level for every day, on every occasion (real people have real lives, need to haul stuff, ferry kids to school etc.) on any road, for every person who thinks of driving as something more than a chore (but doesn’t need to be Senna or Schumacher!). Slot the brand as a logical progression upwards from the likes of MINI by offering practicality and a more ’serious’ brand image (no gaudy pimpin’ accessory line, form follows function) but not quite at the BMW/Audi ‘hey, I’m moving up in the corporate world’ level. In short – make Saab the automotive Swiss Army knife for people who love driving. Sell them to the same kind of folks that have an Elise (or whatever) as a second or third car.
I think Saab should be back to a two-car line up -but both should be back where the marque was in the early/mid ’80s – at the forefront. The smaller one should be a spiritual successor to the original 99 Turbo, making the most of the packaging/weight/complexity/drivetrain inertia advantages FWD offers. With current technology, it shouldn’t have to weigh more than the 1,200-1,250 kgs an old 900 Turbo (and incidentally a MINI Cooper S) weighs. Equip the sporting version with a 250 bhp 2 litre turbo four inline and a Quaife ATB diff, and start getting your sorry behinds on the Nordschleife and on British B-roads – evetyone else that claims to build a real performance car here, does so! The current 9-3 has so much potential with its ReAxs rear axle configuration giving it such a willing, agile behaviour – but the lack of ‘edge’ and steering feel let the side down to a point that most car hacks can’t separate it from the most boring of midsize FWD saloons.
With the new pedestrian safety regulations here resulting in big front overhangs and lots of visual weight in front of the axle line, it would make much sense to finally reverse the drivetrain arrangement (so that it sits behind the axle line) like in the 9-X concept of 2001. In this size of car, it wouldn’t take much from the inherent packaging advantages of FWD (it’s not so much the drivetrain that moves rearwards, but rather the front wheels that move forwards), it would make for a much better weight balance and your designers would finally be able to come up with something very dynamic that sets Saab apart from the FWD pack. Moreover, only this way a convincing sports car could be built off the same platform. A sportscar needs a long bonnet line and the cabin well back in relation to the front wheels.
The bigger car should definitely offer an AWD option, and it would be sensible to bring out some kind of crossover version, which could mark the other end of the ‘performance anywhere, anytime’ philosophy.
First of all I have to say that we are a Saab familily. My Mum has a 2000 9-3 Viggen, my Dad has the 2006 9-3 Sports Combi and I drive the 2006 9-3 Convertible And in the Garage is another 2000 9-3 Convertible which my parents take for a ride on sunny days in summer.
Now getting back to the topic: A Saab, in my opinion, has to have a FWD. It just belongs to the character of the car. What would be nice though is an AWD Option for the 9-3 Sports Combi, which would put it more in a leage with an Audi Avant or BMW 3 Series (which have the AWD option, at least here in Germany)
I do not like front wheel drive for any application. I will not, as long as I have a choice, purchase a front wheel drive vehicle.
Keep Saab esentially FWD to set it apart from Caddy (essentially RWD). Give each brand 1 or 2 AWD’s. These should be your top 2 luxury brands. Buick should be just behind them with equall FWD and RWD platforms. Saturn should be your all around import fighter. Pontiac; your refined Chevy brand for those who want a bit of a non-conformist style with the extra 20 HP over Chevy.
As someone in their mid-thirties who lives in hilly, snowy Pittsburgh, I need front wheel drive. But I want to buy an exciting car. . . . Can there be an exciting front wheel drive car – or must I be stuck with the family sedans? By the way, passed up BMW precisely because all their cars are rear wheel drive (and only one Lexus is front wheel drive). Still looking … love the Solstice (but again, it’s front wheel drive, I believe.)
Maybe there’s an all wheel drive version?
FWD is the most abysmal pit as far as performance goes. I’ve got a FWD Buick with the 231 cid v6 in it, which has good performance potential. It is a very sharp car, but I feel like FWD is the only cork in the car. And everyone that complains about needing FWD in the snow, I live in northeast ohio, where lake effect is at its worst, and I still enjoy driving our RWD TRUCK. LEARN TO DRIVE!!
The only cares I have ever owned have all been GM, front wheel, or 4 wheel drive.
why does every car company have to choose, why can’t one just step out and not follow the others so why don’t get 15 worthless versions of the same car. I’d love to have a RWD economy car with 4 doors. It would be awesome to get a car like a new corolla with RWD, get 40 mpg and still be able to control slide it.
I’d also love to see the rebirth of the fullsize rwd station wagon, all those cute SUV’s wouldn’t know what to think.
FWD has its place and so does RWD is there a need to abandon one just because some companies in the 80’s brainwashed people into thinking FWD was the only way to move a car.
Also RWD is alot easier to work on (expect for LN2 s-series) which is a good thing for age, because i prefer working on my own car rather than paying out my ears.
But does it really matter, GM always seems to find a way to ruin or stop making a decent automobile
“Ah, so that’s why the Renault Clio Trophy monstered all the best sub-¬£50K performance cars of 2005 in Evo Magazine’s Car Of The Year feature (and if you don’t know about Evo, you belong to the above group of drivers IMHO), and then went on to to take THIRD PLACE in the supercar group, which included the F430, Murcielago SE, Porsche Cayman, BMW M6 et al?”
And how many of those cars were made? Ah, so that’s why only 500 hundred were produced! Comparing a one off racing product to any street car will show you how fast a track car will be. Case in point: the Ariel Atom is nearly as quick as an Enzo around a track. It costs at least ten times less than the Enzo, as well. So? In real life, rather than “the surreal world” testing, image, interior and the ability to actually buy and use the car matter.
I’ve driven against Mini Coopers quite a bit. I’ve driven the newest Civic SI, and owned the Focus SVT. I’d still have the SVT if it was RWD. Not to say it wasn’t “something to behold”, but rather that RWD would have made it better. On the track, I’ve seen more FWD cars spin than RWD. Why is that? In order for FWD to not plow through a turn, it needs to be set up to spin like a top if one lets off the gas. Mistakes made, but those things happen.
I traded the Focus SVT for a Miata, which is now turbocharged (by far the highest regarded method of making power by the aftermarket, GM), and stripped down (light weight cars are NEEDED. the Mustang is 3400 lbs, the Charger is what, 4100? Light cars use less materials, need less power, use less gas, are better on tires and pads, grip is much better on the same size tires, they feel much better, the list goes on. you don’t need to ADD things to the car, many times the best thing to do is TAKE WEIGHT AWAY)with bigger brakes and a roll bar. I’d trade it in an instant for a light (2500 lbs or less) hardtop hatchback like the Focus. It was so very useful under every condition. One more thing, GM. If you want your cars to do well on comparision tests, a cheap way to get better statistics is to use the best tires you can.
Rear wheel drive IMO.
I never had any use for FWD cars and never will.
Thats why I drive a GMC and a CTS.
I prefer rear-wheel drive. I believe that are much more reliable & more cost-effective to build and repair. GM, you definitely need to make all vehicles RWD.
I have driven all of the above and for me AWD is the most fun. Understandably not always the fastest in the affordable price range (READ: not a Porsche or S4), but it is a blast to drive on all conditions.
If both can be offered, then that is the way to go. The more choices the better. I would like to see more options in cars of all sizes. I hope fwd never goes away though, as I personally prefer it for the space advantages, and traction. Of course, my ideal car would be a full size, front wheel drive, six-passenger coupe like the last Riviera.
I have never driven a FWD auto that drove anywhere near as good as RWD. I bought a BMW 3 series b/c it was that size with RWD. (The CTS hadn’t come out yet.) An AWD option can make up for the fact that RWD is not as poor-weather friendly.
As an owner of a RWD Pontiac Firebird, and a FWD Dodge Neon, I’d say that there are advantages to both setups. I don’t think GM should concentrate on an all-RWD lineup of vehicles, which seems to be the current trend. Notice I said “CURRENT”. It certainly won’t be that way forever. I love RWD as much as the next guy, but it’s harder to drive a RWD car in inclement weather. And not everyone is an enthusiast, so FWD is fine for them. Think long term GM, and have a balanced mix of RWD/FWD/AWD. Vehicles with a more sporty/racing nature should definitely be RWD, as it’s more fun to drive. FWD cars can be regular sedans, economy cars, etc where interior space is a top priority. A sport AWD vehicle would be a great image-builder, since to my knowledge neither GM, Ford, nor DCX has one. Be the first American company to challenge cars like the WRX, Evo, etc with a viable AWD car. Just play up the benefits of each type for each car.
RWD all the way! If traction and handling are issues in bad weather then go back in GM’s long inventory and review the Fiero. I drive my 87 gt everyday good,bad, or worse weather and have no problems at all. With the mid-engine and RWD give same traction as a FWD car.
My 2 cents.
Roy
I think that with a global fleet as large as GM’s there should be room for both front, rear and 4 wheel drive small cars.
When Subaru was in the fold, I though we’d see more 4WD products coming out of that partnership to compete agianst Audi, but the Saabaru didn’t catch fire even though it is cabable in many ways.
For me there are a few clear choices RWD and some 4WD for Cadillac and Pontiac. FWD and maybe some 4WD for Saab. Saturn, Chevrolet, Buick, Opel/Vaxhaul, Holden, and GM South America can use what works best in the market they want to go after.
The truth is driving from either end can give some impressive machinery. Nobody buys an Audi because of its great traction with a compromising eye toward handling. For years they’ve done it all. GM has built countless rear drive small cars from Opel, Isuzu and dare I mention the Chevette? The Opel 1900 / Manta was a thoroughly entertaining samll car 30 years ago and it wasn’t cramped for its size and class.
The point is don’t try to make a small car a great seller because of which end its driven by. Pick and end and make a great small car and people with buy it. General Mediocrity has to end.
I Own a Fiero GT and a Honda CRX, both compact cars. one is an MR platform, one is a FF platform. both have their ups and downs, but from a performance standpoint, RWD, and more specifically Mid-Engine RWD, is ideal. sure you can make the FWD, slushbox family cars for girls and grandparents, but make some cars for us, the men who like cars and like to DRIVE
Um, I’d say more people would be able to buy and *use* a ¬£15K Renault Clio that features a hatchback, rear seats and all usual safety doodahs, than any of the supercars in that particular test… How many they made is besides the point, it was a normal road car on road tyres, and an only slightly tweaked limted/final edition of a car that has ran for years in fairly significant numbers at that.
And yes, my Saab is set up for a healthy dose of lift-off obversteer, too, but unlike a TVR or a Camaro I can still use it all year round without the fear of losing it when hitting a damp patch on a roundabout…
RWD with an AWD option is much better! I have never been a fan of front wheel drive and I think its “benefits” are more hype than reality. It amazes me that people actually buy into this idea the FWD gives you better traction. I find that on slick roads you can spin the wheels of a FWD car just as with a RWD car. The only real advantage of FWD is that you only need the front tires to have real traction to move and steer the vehicle. With RWD you need botth front and rear to have traction – but this can be managed with driving skills.
I recently rented a brand new Impala from Avis and all I can say is the handling feel was the worst I have probably ever experienced – heavy and numb. (The 3900 engine was coarse as well)
In total contrast, I have taken a test drive in the Dodge Charger and the steering and handling were probably the best I have experienced (apart from a ‘D’ Type Jaguar many years ago)- Light and very responsive.
I put this down in the main to the RWD layout.
The Impala was fairly well equipped but, in terms of driving pleasure, absolutely no match to the Charger which will probably be my next new car.
PS Can anyone come up with an example of a Mercedes or BMW car with FWD?
SAAB a young persons car?
No offence but SAAB image is the 35-50 year old college educated professional car but for someone not mainstream but with an intellectual edge and a slight left leaning sensibility.
I care about GM but unless GM does something rapid and drastic FWD vs. RWD debate will seem trivial.
Pontiac or Saturn should sell front wheel drive cars going after the Honda Civic and Mazda 3 import crowd from the Opel/Vauxhall designed line of cars and the GMDAT line and in no way be based on the same platform as Chevrolets. One of the brands Saturn or Pontiac should be retired.
Chevrolet should focus more on the traditional North American image and offer a select few read wheel drive vehicles.
Should sell the Aveo, Cobalt, Malibu, Monte Carlo, Camero,
Make the Corvette a Cadillac
Use the differentiation of the two divisions to you advantage to see the direction the market in going and adjust accordingly. No other manufacturer has that advantage.
Either GMC and Chevrolet trucks need to be differentiated or
GMC = Trucks
Chevrolet = SUV
Buick should have more upscale and be to Pontiac what Cadillac is to Chevrolet, Buick needs more of a European influence, should all be FWD.
Cadillac has made an excellent come-back, keep up the good work should all be AWD.
All the best.
Since you’re asking, Rear Wheel Drive, please! I know that FWD can be fun, is practical, etc., etc. I just don’t want it and won’t buy it.
Driving skills! That’s the key. If you don’t have driving skills, you’re gonna need (and probably want) FWD.
I’ve spent the early years of my life in RWD cars. Starting with mid size coupes, into F-cars, and through to Corvettes. I drove them year-round through Michigan winters. You don’t get stuck unless you drive them poorly. I drove a Corvette through 2 Michigan winters, and only got it stuck once. In my driveway.
Then “family” happened. I drove an assortment of FWD sedans, just about the only choice out there. I never saw an advantage, They would spin their tires in snow too! Imagine that!
I owned the occasional 4WD truck, and those did show an advantage in snow. Okay, I did get the 4WD GMC Yukon stuck once too. In my driveway. Maybe it’s not me. Maybe it’s not the vehicle. Maybe I should be trading in my driveway.
Rear Wheel Drive with AWD is the way to go!!
You definitely need to have a small Pontiac based on an extended wheelbase Solstice (but as close as possible to the original to keep down production costs). You have the factory config already to (hopefully) make money on it at low volumes–keep the $20 – $25K pricing.
I’m already 36 with 2 small kids, so I own the minivan, but one of our cars can still be more fun–and closer to what I owned in my single 20s. (BTW, I never owned anything domestic in my 20s).
The Solstice won’t pull me into a showroom because there’s no WAY I could convince the wife that it makes any sense when we have kids. It’s got to be a Minivan, sedan or wagon.
But I would definitely look at a Solstice-based small sedan, and your salespeople could then have fun convincing my wife that a G6 would be best (once she realized how poorly the carseats might fit in a small RWD with a firebird-sized backseat). If I win the discussion with my wife, you sell me a small RWD. If my wife wins the discussion, you have gotten us into a Pontiac showroom to look at a mainstream car–the G6–and not something like the Mazda 6, which is probably where I’d personally head first in that class.
You want to get me (and anyone else under 45) in your Pontiac showroom? Here’s your opportunity…
It should be an AWD car, to sell more both in the cold icy slippery North, and the rainy south. Properly positioned, AWD should sell in both markets. It would be good for you to have a competitor to the Subaru Impreza WRX, and the soon-to-be-announced AWD SRT-4 version of the Dodge Caliber…your competition…
The Dodge Caliber SRT-4 and Subaru WRX have very high HP/torque figures…GM needs this too. Dodge Neon SRT-4’s have almost a cult following…which is not true of the Chevrolet Cobalt SS.
Make it a four door as well. Sound sacriligeous, I know…but some of us out here have families, and want a fun drive that people can still fit into….note that the Dodge Caliber and Impreza are easy to get out of/into…
Don’t skimp on the hp/torque. And the price should be under $23000 list…with some reasonable options…
It’s NO WONDER why GM is going belly up.
I just took a trip to my local dealer to look at a Pontiac Solstice, a car that piqued my interest, and was told that:
1. They have none in stock
2. They have no literature regarding the Solstice
3. There are none scheduled to come in.
4. If I wanted one, anyway, they can’t even order it.
I feel bad for the poor GM employees, they’re on a sinking ship being captained by a collection of arrogant morons.
Keep building and stocking crap that nobody wants and when you finally produce something that might sell, make it unavailable.
I am in a financial position that enables me to buy (within reason) anything I want. When I’m ready to but a new car it won’t be anything from GM.
Best Regards
Bill Allegretti
I am a young(21) middle class male with money to spend. If there was a small, cheap and sporty RWD car on the market today I would buy it. Because of the focus on platforms that aren’t very fun or sporty, I drive older Japanese sports cars like the Supra and RX-7. If there were a car like the Cobalt or Scion tC available in RWD without traction control(or the option to disable it) I would buy it in an instant.
I grew up driving rear wheel drive cars and trucks and learned to put up with the lack of winter traction as best I could. As cars became smaller in the 80’s and the mass attributable to traction disappeared the necessity of FWD became apparent. For us in the snow belt a mid-sized and smaller car to be driven in winter or rain needs to at the least be FWD. Performance cars have always been RWD and suffice to say more power can be transmitted from engine to pavement through a RWD drivetrain. My dream family car would be neither of those 2 but instead a full-time AWD with enough differentials and controls that would allow somewhere in the neighborhood of 350-400 hp delivered to any and all wheels that need it. It is something that Audi and Subaru, and even Honda have been able to do for years.
A hybrid drive with individual wheel motors would allow a flexibility of configuration that could allow for some of the designers’ dreams to come through. Imagine a Solstice without the constraint of chassis mounted differential and teh ability to place the fuel tank where the driveshaft is now…luggage space of a sedan without changing the body.
RWD is much more enjoyable to drive. I also believe that a RWD car is more predictable than a FWD car in a limited traction situation. Most of the time, conditions are better for the RWD vehicle anyway. As for AWD, that’s great, but is costs more and is more difficult to maintain. I work on all 5 of my vehicles and know from 10 years of personal experience. As for performance vehicles, RWD is a MUST, however mid-engine designs are also desireable. Just my 2 cents.
I think rwd is the way to go if you are going to have a performance car. I just got to see the Solstice and Sky. They are both great looking cars and I would defintely consider purchaseing a Solstice. I have Fieros and a BMW Z3. They are all rear wheel drive and are fun to drive. Please build more.
Saab has a history with Front-wheel drive, and it should stay that way.
GM needs to bring a small inexpensive (read cobalt priced) rwd car. I’m of the belief that the first company to release an inexpensive, lightweight RWD car with a strong easy to modify engine, will have a hit. The car will need to look decent, or atleast have a body that will take well to body mods. Going with a turbocharged engine, even if “only” to make 200hp, would seal the deal. Use a commonly available T3 turbo, and the car will become the tuner hit GM wants with the cobalt.
PLEASE make an independant RWD, 5.0L or more V8, 4 or 5 speed auto, big luxury sedan in a Buick. I have owned around 15 GM cars in 22 years. Went to trucks after the Caprice died. Recently got my first Caddy (I just hit 40) in a used Deville-DTS, and sorry to say I’m not that impressed, mostly because of the FWD. It’s a great car, just the little V8 and FWD make it not my favorite, almost rather drive my 6.0L Sierra truck (great truck by the way), and my 8.1L Suburban (even better truck, wife’s though). I love the STS and it’s spec’s but I can not afford it. Maybe rebadge the STS platform to a Buick/Pontiac, shave off $10-15K and you’ll have a winner. How about a new Bonneville (had three of those till they started looking like the Grand Prix) with the STS platform but with a little bigger engine? 4.6L just doesn’t have enough torque. I don’t care about mpg either, 15-20 is fine. I can hold out for another year or so, otherwise I must try the 300.
Hopefully you’ll listen to me, because I’m probably darn near your exact target. I’m 24, and I drive an IS300 SportCross. I don’t think FWD is automatically evil. The problem is that almost all FWD cars ‘feel’ like FWD cars.
Use posi to lessen the all-too-common ‘one wheel wonder’ moments.
Nobody expects a FWD car to have 50:50 balance, but 55:45 would sure be nice. I know you had a concept a few years ago (a Buick convertible?) that pushed the engine pretty far to stern (for a FWD car); go from there.
The most important obstacle may be one that is purely aesthetic: the terrible plague of FWD ’stance’: you know, where the wheels look like donuts and the rear bumper appears to be four feet higher than the front. The worst offender is probably the Neon (R.I.P.). Some FWD compacts, especially the Protege5, overcome the odds and look great. The Neon and Protege are both great autocrossers, but the Mazda also looks good while doing it. Performance is King, but fender gap is the enemy!
In the past 6 years, we have owned an Audi S4, used Audi A4, Subaru WRX, Subaru STI, and Subaru Legacy. In my opinion all wheel drive is the way to go. They are fun to drive, and safe when the weather is bad. I have always looked for a good looking, sporty, 4 door allwheel drive American car, and as you can see from the list above I haven’t found one. Please change this!
Best of Luck!
chevy: front mainly/some rwd
buick: mostly rwd/couple fwd
cadillac: all rwd/awd option
saturn: fwd mostly/some rwd
pontiac:RWD and sporty/some awd
saab: keep fwd heritage/offer 50-50 awd setups
and for the love of god please please buy a few german, japanese luxury cars and see how to maximize materials and out of the box design! not all designs are successes, but differentiate interiors a bit more. you have been making great strides and I am happy to see that, but the CTS=nasty interior and the list can def go on. Pontiac is very plasticy and cheap looking. I saw the new toyotas and lexus’ and i’m sorry to say it, but GM is trumped again.
With vast improvements in tire and traction control technology, modern rear-drive vehicles can get along just fine in the snow. There’s no reason not to implement rear drive on more models across all of GMs brands (perhaps with the exception of Saturn).
I am leery, of all wheel drive; many people do not know the difference between “all wheel” and “four wheel” — it’s huge. All wheel drive is more expensive to maintain, and in my opinion does not provide a significant enough advantage over front wheel drive to justify the added cost, weight, complexity, complication, and maintenance.
When you need to pour on the cheap, power the front, when you want to add spice and size, drive the rear.
Thanks, but no thanks to RWD. Been there, done that. Last RWD car I had (1978-81), I loved it for its other attributes, but referred to it as “the silver skate” for its miserable handling on ice. I am astonished and appalled by the eager return to the dark ages of RWD. Count me out.
I think all-wheel drive is very forgiving and offers a world of opportunities from performance to safety. While I enjoy rear drive the most, the fact remains many of us live in climates where it just isn’t going to work or mentality is just that:safety. Audi has carved out a unique market and takes care of those in need of safe vehicles and performance as well with their S and RS models. This may also increase Saab’s appeal in the US. AWD small displacement turbo-which is a Saab trademark feature as well, and diesel options would work wonders. I am a GM guy and would love to see Saab take the Germans(Audi) and the Japanese(Subaru) on head to head. What once was an alliance w/Subaru can now be a competitive upmarket advantage.
Jack,
Since you asked, here’s the deal. Good question, bad example. First and foremost, GM should unwind its position in Saab. Saab has two significant negatives: 1) It makes Swedish Buicks. In and of itself this is not necessarily a bad thing. It’s just that Buick already makes perfectly good Buicks. 2) It has not turned a profit in ages and likely never will. In the same vein, kill Saturn. They make small FWD cars. There is absolutely no reason why GM cannot sell small cars through Chevrolet and Pontiac. Case in point, they already do.
With those two divisions gone you can get down to a realistic approach to your question, the answer to which is, it depends. There is no “right” kind of drive for compact/subcompact cars. It all depends on brand positioning. With GM’s remaining six divisions as outlined above you could and should do the following: Make Buick GM’s Audi with AWD standard on every vehicle.
Then make all Pontiacs relatively affordable RWD with the exception of a special AWD Rally Edition of the Pontiac Vibe which would compete against the likes of the Subaru Impreza WRX and Mitsubishi Evolution on both road and track.
Then make Chevrolet FWD with the exception of the Vette and Camaro.
Like BMW, Cadillac would be RWD luxury with AWD optional on the entry (CTS) and mid-level (STS) models. A Cadillac flagship sedan to compete with the Mercedes S-Class, BMW 7-Series, Audi A8 et al should also be RWD with AWD optional.
Then each GM division would be organized around a more clearly defined drive strategy such that buyers would better know what they are in for in terms of price and performance depending on where they go. Within each drive level you could have different tiers based on equipment (Cobalt – Cobalt SS) and vehicle size (Pontiac G6 – Grand Prix or its replacement).
If you pause to think about it you will realize just how superfluous Saab and Saturn would be in this system. If you are still wondering about Saab as FWD near-luxury, all you have to do is improve the trim levels on all FWD Chevrolets. That’s all Honda has done with their “Acuras”. Where you will be better is that you won’t have to form or support a whole new/separate division to do it so your relative cost and value should soon begin to show up competition like Acura.
Details? Re-badge the Saturn Sky as a Buick and give it a V-6 (but not AWD). Drop the Pontiac minivan in place of FWD minivans from Chevy, a GMC minivan and a Buick minivan. When you bring back the Grand National give it AWD. Any Chevy SS car should be RWD or at least AWD. Make the SSR a real “truck” (AWD, real truck bed, realistic wheels, not a convertible etc.) with that look and it will sell wildly. Don’t build another car with a live rear axle or drum brakes.
There. You’re done and there is now something better organized for everyone.
As an aside, while you’re at it, roll Hummer into GMC and call it the GMC Hummer. In the short term GM will just have to eat the cost of having Hummer dealerships undergo a costly redesign but in the long term this will be good for business.
The crucial part is “if properly set up.”
I have an emotional attachment to SAAB from my childhood, but in the mid-90’s, bought a Jetta GLX over a base SAAB, because it was faster and handled a little better. Then, in the late 90’s, I bought a BMW 328 over a top-of-the-line SAAB because, while the horsepower was similar (and I liked the engine turbo sound), the off-the-line on the SAAB didn’t compare to the BMW at all.
While it wasn’t a factor in my decision, I’ve come to appreciate the handling difference of rear-wheel drive, but even infrequent LA rain makes me see the drawbacks. Losing your tail at all is SCARY if you have cars on either side of you, and I’d never take this car someplace snowy. (Conversely, I can’t imagine driving a full-sized car with FWD.)
I suspect a lot of buyers in this segment are like me, looking for great handling, great road visibility and upright driving position, the ability to pass bad drivers easily. And in most big cities today, the easy parkability and maneuverability of a car under 15′ is a big plus. I had a Pontiac Grand Prix for a while on business in Atlanta, and was surprised by the engine, but felt like a ship captain.
Make the Camero in RWD, but as cool as it is, it’s still likely to appeal to people who want to drive a muscle car rather than a sports sedan or coupe.
It would great to see an American company with a truly viable competitor in this segment, whatever the drive-configuration. I would definitely give preference to an American-built car (Ford and Chrysler aren’t fooling me by building their most interesting new cars in Mexico and Canada.)
To Bob Lutz and all GM staff:
As far as the fwd vs. rwd goes if the engine is an inline 4 then its sort of a coin toss as to which route you go, but as far as the vehicles that feature more than one bank of cylinders then rwd with awd as an option is the way to go because it allows shade-tree mechanics like myself easier access to things like sparkplugs, exhaust manifolds etc. and also its alot less strenuous in the drivetrain as there are no turns as the trans is connected to the back of the engine which has a driveshaft connected to it that runs back to the rearend. as far as an inline 4 goes like I said before its sort of a flip toss and should be desided by the people who love the brand for instance the saab guys would want a transverse mounted front wheel drive application with optional AWD while say the performance oriented pontiac buick guys like myself might want a rear wheel drive car with optional AWD drive option. Also one last thing, whether or not anyone at GM ever reads i wont know but if do is there any chance that i will ever see a modern day GMC syclone with AWD and a modern turbocharged v-6 as I know there is a colorado ss concept that features an LS2 but i would like to have a performance truck powered by something different for once and this would be a great opertunity to unleash such a legendary truck to combat the srt-10s and maybe if the public reacts well enough you guys could comeout with a typhoon based off say a turbocharged Inline 6 envoy. Basically what im saying is that GMC needs to get some performance as well as chevrolet and with chevy having all the ss’s they currently have its a no wonder GMC sales have been sort of short changed as of late. Thinks for your time adam
If I was buying a car for myself only I would go for a RWD but since my wife need to drive the cars we buy for the family and since we live in Quebec (winter) I don’t.
Even with traction control, RWD have less winter traction than FWD.
If I had enough to buy a car only for myself on top of the cars we need for the family then I would buy RWD.
RWD are for people that understand cars and like to drive. They are not everybody and not made for winter.
Jack
In GMs glory days it was all rear wheel drive except for the Eldorado and Toronado. In the 70s GM sold boatloads of mide-size rwd coupes. I dont care about SAABs but I do care about the 4 remaining original American brands. GM needs real American cars not Camry clones. It took the Germans at Chrysler and the Aussies to remember what a real American car is. Buick needs to be a rwd drive companion to Cadillac with simalir Arts and Science styling. When I think of an Impala I think of the great cars of the 1960s not another Camry or Taurus.
GM has a great heritage. This heritage was squandered in the 1980s with boring ugly fwd cars.
FWD vs. RWD? For Saab? Give the customers a choice and let demand set the production schedule! If Saab wants to compete globally they’ll have to do a little bit of everything. I don’t think they can make the most of the brand if they only stick to FWD. Most people stereotype Saab as a FWD brand, and FWD is not going to take a lot of buyers away from Lexus, Mercedes, or BMW. Saab should explore the options of RWD, but always have an AWD version of the same car available. Audi has had great success with this formula. All of the FWD versions should have a limited slip solution to minimize or eliminate the torque steer. And while they broaden their appeal they need to respect their traditions as well. Saab really needs a hatchback option on the 9-3, not just a wagon or “sport combi”. Saab customers have long enjoyed the utility of a hatchback sedan. Also, the 9-2X was a good idea, but only offering the wagon version really hurt sales in my opinion. An entry level 9-2 Sedan in addition to the 9-2X would really help Saab in the showroom. The 9-7x is step in the right direction, but why isn’t it available as a turbocharged Saab like all the others? What is Saab racing doing to help generate brand enthusiasm? They have some vintage racing going on, but they don’t compete at LeMans or in the DTM. A solid RWD platform would put them on the map and in the arena with BMW, Mercedes, and Audi.
I would also like to take this opportunity to comment on the FWD/RWD debate for the rest of GM too.
A fun 4 cylinder RWD coupe would be a great addition to the GM lineup. (In addition to building the Nomad…..) Put it on a stretched Kappa platform and let the dreamers, drifters, and racers have fun. Dreamers because all they can afford at first will be the base 4 cylinder with a 5 speed. But it will be RWD so they will still love it. I loved the chevette I had in high school. I could do donuts in the high school parking lot and powerslide on the gravel roads – not so fun in FWD. The drifters and drift wannabe’s will take their new GM RWD to the drifting clinic and drive home when they’re done. (Offer a “drift package” with beefed up axles, a turbo, and a lowered suspension and they’ll fly off the lot!!) The racers will use it to continue dominating all forms of racing. SCCA, RWD NHRA, etc… But which brands should have a version? Chevy, Pontiac, and Buick. The first two might sound obvious, but the third is a surprise – the exact surprise Buick needs to generate some enthusiasm. And what about a name? Bring back the Cavalier. Yes I said it. The Cavalier is still tearing up NHRA/IHRA events. It’s about time to build a car for the customer that lives up to that. If that won’t work, dust off the old “Monza” name. It sounds good and I think we (GM) still own all the naming rights. Pontiac will need one too. By the way, the Sunfire is still dominant in Drag Racing….. And Buick needs some economical muscle. Buick shouldn’t sell a 4 cylinder base, but a 4 cylinder, turbo charged, luxury coupe would help get younger buyers into Buick sooner. Gran Sport, Wildcat, Skylark are all great inspirations for a product like this. In my vision none of this would be the dreaded “badge engineering” – platform sharing only with distinct body panels and brand character.
And finally, some of my random ramblings and dreams for the future of GM:
While we’re on the subject of RWD please don’t forget to bring back the Firebird! 2008/9 Camaro Sales will be brisk, but don’t forget the Pontiac faithful!
While I’m on my rampage, let’s consider GM’s efforts in the World Rally Championship. I think we’re missing a chance to generate a lot of worldwide interest and enthusiasm. Only the Opel Corsa 1.6 competes currently. We need to get in on the action. The Nomad would be a great platform for this, as would an AWD Cobalt, etc…Saab and Opel could gain a great deal from this given the popularity of WRC events in Europe.
Also, how about OPEL making a comeback in the US? If Kia can take up some of the market I know Opel could. I drove an opel in 2004 in Europe and loved it. Team it up with Saab dealerships in the US and eat up some marketshare. If the Opel brand is not viable in the US how about Holden?
We could have had the success of the 300C before Chrysler did – We had the Belair Concept early, we just didn’t get it to market. It’s not too late though, and they don’t have a 300C convertible yet….
Thank you for your time. Let me know if you want me to come work for you on my “Monza” project.
Michael P. Gallagher
Rear wheel drive all the way!!
An AWD would be good too…
Especially with Pontiac. I like the G6 but the front wheel drive and numb steering hurts a lot. I believe none of the Pontiac’s should be front wheel drive. GM is loosing a lot by not offering RWD on more cars!
Rear-drive with push button optional all-wheel drive is definitely the way to go.
Living in the Midwest and Eastern US is hard on a driver. For the last 5 years, I’ve always had to maintain a summer vehicle and a winter vehicle because I love the driving dynamics of my Firebird, but I like to stay on the road in the rain and snow.
If GM wants to keep customers such as myself around, you must leap. I want to drive my car EVERYDAY, not when weather permits. Sandbags do nothing for a Firebird or Camaro with 255s on the rear. The leap also needs to be on the interior. I need NAVIGATION and BLUETOOTH. Foreign car makers have been offering these options on almost every vehicle.
I recently purchased a 2005 RX8 for 2 reasons. 1: It was one of the only affordable sports cars on the market comparable to my 1996 3.8L Firebird. 2: I could add more than OnStar(a feature rich vehicle integrated cell phone) and Satelite radio. This stuff is great and all, but it’s 2006 people! Where’s the AC outlets? Bluetooth? Speed sensing cruise control? AWD? Navigation? DVD-video? Make me a cup holder that… get this… HOLDS CUPS!!! Why does every sports car w/ a manual transmission have 2 cup holders right behind the stick? I have to pick my drink up to shift the car.
I’m not asking that you change the foundation of the American muscle car for every enthusiast, but at least give me the option to adjust it myself.
(I know there’s after market solutions, but who wants a single din radio in a GM car? that’s always been ugly, and always will)
I’m 16, Saabs, should be fwd base for the lower end models, w/ an awd option. higher end models should be standard awd (will set them apart) and the awd should direct power to the rear wheels in ideal conditons.
Try to make as many RWD cars as possible, or RWD based AWD, most of the younger crowd prefers RWD over FWD, its just that there is not many RWD choices in their price range. Bring back the old days, RWD, lots of low end tourqe
I hate to say it but kill saab. i used to love saab back in the 1980s when few cars had power and turbo was one of the answers. let use face it saab is too small to make GM any money and it has no “halo” effect due to the fact it is an obscure Swedish brand (no offense sweden). U approach anywhere near the price of a rear drive bmw 6 cylinder with a saab and u are not going to make any money. witness the cutrate lease deals on saab that GM is having to put out on the market. just take your lumps like u did with Fiat and GET OUT.
FWD vs RWD
anyone with any sense of how a car drives and performance AND comfort knows that FWD is for cheap cars. it is cheaper to package and build a FWD car. it is great for a small 4 cyl or 6 cyl car. it is terrible for a $30k or more car. with traction control and skid control the issue with FWD traction is moot. also it is easy to add AWD affordably now. witness the bmws and chrysler 300 and more.
it is my theory that many people that could afford it went to upscale SUVs (i drove landcruiser and now escalade) bec they wanted the FEEL of the big towncars and fleetwoods of old. rear wheel drive just plain DRIVES better whether u are talking a sporty bmw 550i or a lincoln town car. the bigger SUVs with part time 4by4 and big tires and v8 drive more like big rear sedans. so go RWD like on the caddy STS and u will succeed.
There is nothing wrong with Saab, they just need crossovers.
That’s all.
If you don’t have crossovers like Saab or Jaguar you are out of the game right now.
Again, nothing is wrong with the brand.
I much prefer RWD/AWD. My 1997 911 Twin Turbo is an outstanding track car in large part because of the C4 capability.
Do NOT make a RWD SAAB. I know I don’t even have to say this, because you would never do such a thing.
DO make a RWD Sky Redline. The Solstice GXP is awesome and the Sky looks better in my opinion.
Leave RWD to Cadillac and FWD to SAAB.
AWD makes me yawn.
GM Killed the Trans-Am
the original was a great vehicle the designers turned it into an ugly
unexciting mess and then said it’s not selling and dumped it.
The original shape”Smokey and the Bandit style is still a cult car.
The reason is obvious it embodies the spirit of the USA freedom and power.
Models after that time do not.
The time has come for a new Trans Am resembling the old one but much more exciting and with high tech systems.
On no account should it look like the last dreadful models that killed this vehicle.
Bob Lutz as I understand killed this car I don’t appreciate that decision Bob but the model you killed had to go.
Cadillac’s once icons are boring for most part and the original pedigree has gone nobody lusts after a modern Cadillac because it lacks character.
Not a trace of its heritage is left.
The originals command high prices and the reason is obvious.They are works of art nothing made by GM is going to be a future work of art.
Concept cars offer promise but they never get produced not even in limited numbers.
GM needs get the accounts department out of the way and start making cars.
The rational system is losing money because it is not rational.
The bottom line proves it.
Thank you
GM needs both FWD and RWD models in their lineup. As pointed out so well in the excellent posts above, there are clear advantages to both layouts. One point not mentioned so far is the design flexibility provided by using a front mounted engine driving the rear wheels. With this configuration it is practical to offer a wide power range in the same vehicle. Look at the Mercedes C series where they offer everything from a small four cylinder to a big V-8 AMG in the same essential car while maintaining excellent vehicle dynamics in each variation. Not only does this provide a wide choice for the prospective buyer, but it greatly insulates the manufacturer from changes in the market. Another thing to consider is that most families have more than one vehicle so it is possible to have both a performance car and practical car. I have a minivan for visiting the grandkids or going skiing but I have a Porsche 928S4 for other occasions. I also had a Firebird back in 1969 and would buy the new Camero/Firebird(?) if you built it.
If you have to ask, you have missed the boat.
GM needs both.
Saab should stay FWD.
The rest of GM needs some RWD sedans and coupes, 10 years ago.
Keep at least one FWD full-size car line, please? I am from the Northeast, where winter brings all kind of awful weather, including snow, ice, freezing rain, water-covered roads, etc. FWD is a superior performer on those surfaces. I can’t imagine returning to RWD. For all the technology, the RWD’s still have their problems in winter. Please don’t do a total changeover.
I recently drove a 2007 VW GTi and a 2006 BMW 325i with sport package. If it weren’t for the terrible experience I had with my previous VW’s reliability (one thing after another) I’d be in the GTi after one test drive. And, at least subjectively, it had more head and leg room in the back than an Impala (incredible but true). That’s one well set up front wheel drive car, and a real balance between refinement and performance. (age 49)
Many of the previous comments seem to be about GM in general, and US focused. If Saab is to remain relevant worldwide, and true to its heritage, the cars should be FWD with maybe FWD-based AWD variations. But it depends where you want Saab to go. If the brand is to be used to attract new US buyers without considering established global owners then maybe RWD is an option. Risky though as others are doing european RWD well and existing brand loyalty may evaporate. Saab has historically done FWD well, and in less than perfect conditions the cars excel. At least in my part of the world the road is not always flat, even and dry so I’d prefer to be able to get home. I also cannot subscribe to the view that lots of power is not an option through the front wheels. It takes some skill, but powerful FWD cars are satisfying to drive in real-world situations and on the track. Most reviews of performance tend to focus on standing start aceleration figures where RWD and AWD do well. Such straight line 0-whatever figures have little to do with everyday driving when the driver is having a serious go on slippery twisty roads. But Saabs should be getting lighter rather than heavier to maximise the driver involvement. Build on the heritage and avoid the temptation to cheapen the brand. Also, when considering that we are driving vehicles powered by a finite resource which makes more sense; a small turdoed motor that uses its power only when needed, or a large capacity motor generating the same power whether needed or not?
RWD and AWD. The new Camaro has much promise. Clean up the rockers and nose a little and you have my order.
GM as the largest manufacturer needs to offer all 3 variants:
FWD, AWD and RWD
But don’t forget how important it is for the specific brand.
The Solstice and its sibling OPEL GT is a good idea for RWD addicts.
For SAAB the FWD is a must. But please add AWD as soon as possible.
I am driving SAAB since 1986 and like the performance and the versatility. 5 doors as on my MY 1997 SAAB 900 is great. I can even put my mountainbike inside.
It’s all a question of perspective. I live in real snow country so FWD is a no brainer, unless you want to pay the extra cost of buying and operating an AWD. We get by very well with our Saab 9-5, a terrific highway cruiser in all conditions and our Pontiac Vibe, a great economical and spacious little city car. TBS, there is so much power you can drive through the front wheels. The 2006 260-hp Saab 9-5 has probably exceeded that limit. As others have posted, I think Saab should still offer great FWD cars but to compete with European and Asian luxury brands, AWD (which will finally arrive with the Epsilon II platform) is a must and why not, RWD if Saab ever gets a bigger car than the 9-5. I was very surprised to learn that a 250-hp Saab FWD sports car concept is scheduled for Geneva. I think a true sports car is RWD, but then, who knows, you might have a good sports package that you can drive in the Winter, √† la Golf GTI, which would further strengthen Saab’s image for building practical and enjoyable vehicles. In a nut shell, I would continue with FWD for the majority of the GM line-up because of the space and traction advantages and keep RWD for performance cars, which in my opinion, should be phased out anyway if we are to give this planet a chance to survive. Of course, the Chrysler 300 may prove me wrong and I am sure it is the subject of a lot od discussions at your end. For sure, they must be miserable in the snow without the costly AWD option.
i would buy a saab in a heartbeat if i could get it repaired when and where it breaks down.
my point is that if gm really wanted to integrate saab, and all other makes under its umbrella, they would make it possible for an owner to drive into any dealership for any service/warranty work etc.
Ok, here goes. Time to clean house in the GM (Pontiac) advertizing department! What brings people to a dealer? An exciting performance car that is a must see leader in its class. YOu built the GrandPrix GXP ( which I own) but I have yet to see ONE word in print or tv. Even my dealer has only a few hidden in the back row of the lot. Maybe you are planning to let Pontiac follow the Olsmobile. Wake up folks, not everyone will buy a GXP or GTO but these cars might bring some buyers back to GM showrooms. Better so something soon or GM will be following the Oldsmobile too!!! RAR
As I can already see from the number of replies posted above, there are going to be varying opinions on each end of the spectrum. As an owner/previous owner of a GMC Typhoon, a Chevelle, and two Camaros, rear wheel drive or all wheel drive is way to go. It all comes down to driver preference. I’m getting ready to shop for a family car, and I’ve been watching the Holden HSV cars for years now, wishing that GM would bring them the US. The styling may be a little bland on some of the cars, but the important features are there — family sedans that are rear wheel drive, V8 powered, and have manual transmissions available. Thanks to the Cadillac CTS-V, GM finally has a contender in this market, but I believe GM needs more options in the lower price ranges of this market as well.
I am 34 yrs. I am on my 3rd Saab. I want it to be 4. I will not settle for not having AWD the next time just to keep my love for Saab fed. You will lose a customer to Audi.
If Saab represents safety how can it not have AWD as an option.
Here’s a suggested advertisement to use for Saab.
People say they quirky. What’s quirky a 4cyl. that gives 260hp or is it the 30+ mpg. etc.
Talk about the car not just it’s heritage. Yeah people think jets are cool but, many more think being able to fly is cooler(I’m referring to the car) and even more think saving money on gas is really really cool.
Pleasure without the guilt!
Saab has the right tools just use them. Talk about the many awards for safety that Saab has won. Most people when they see my 9-5 Aero love it but, they have no idea what it is. They could right a book, though, when I finished with them.
You know we Saab heads do what ever we can to convince people to get one but, we need help. GM help us please… talk about the virtues of the cars!
Saab should always be FWD to reinforce it ’s Scandinzian heritage, however, AWD should be an option on all models-think Audi and Mercedes-Benz or the BMW wagons. Should Saab not offer an AWD (I will not drive a Subaru 9-2x) as an option by next year on it’s 9-5, I may be switching to Audi.
Front Wheel Drive is the work of the devil and should be avoided.
Rear wheel drive with an AWD option would put Saab on the playing field with some of the German performance saloons.
That said I’m not particularly interested in the Saab brand so take it for what it’s worth – but whenever possible I prefer rear wheel drive over front wheel drive.
Gm has bit the dust because E85 may look good but the nd results are lousy , HYdrogen is pure clean energy and comes from waste and corn and water !they gave up their part in ECD Ovonyx to please people and throw away the true future and go for a bandade to save a huge leak !
They and all the U.S. companies have given up to some extent Quality and mileage for people pleasers or pride and greed which always comes before a fall ,These are King Slomons words from God , E85 has limited results but Hydrogen and hydride fuel cells are here to stay …
I think that there needs to be many more RWD options. I used to drive an AWD Toyota Rav4, and it handled well and was terrific in the snow. Other family cars are two Acuras, a 270 horsepower TL and a 200 Horsepower TSX. The TL although grippy in the corners is almost undriveable above 6/10ths due to squirmy steering and front tire overload from trying to put all the power down while steering. The TSX isn’t nearly as bad with far less torque. If it were up to me, the two Acuras would be BMW’s but I am not the only driver in the family. We recently purchased a used Miata which is by far the most fun to drive. Although slow in a straight line, I choose to drive it over the more comfortable and faster Acuras every day because it handles like a dream. I would have bought a Solstice if it was in the budget. (Sorry Bob, the used Miata was 8 grand)
What I am getting as here is that with all of GM’s divisions, and with Pontiac being devoted to driving fun, RWD options should be present. I would love a cheap 4 cylinder RWD pontiac sedan. I would pay alot more for a RWD Cobalt sized vehicle. The big cars have to be RWD as well. AWD options on anything you can afford to put them on would be great too. If I had to buy a midsize and had a choice between AWD and FWD, I would pick AWD. Please, Small light RWD cars. The turbocharged ecotec would be a great SS/GTP option.
I LOVE THIS NEW CAMERO
Mr Lutz,
I personally own a 2000 chev monte carlo ss since new… now I don’t know about compact cars, I’ve never owned one, but I know that with cars in the monte carlos class, a RWD is much preferable. I live in Canada and grew up on RWD cars and never had a problem with them in winters, I am also on 31 years old for demographic info. Personally I feel that for small cars and midsize cars that are goin up against the import competition ya gotta match what they are offering and then better it, most people in those class of vehicles I think generally like the FWD. But for large cars, RWD I think definitely is the way to go. I think there is also a strong case for AWD hybrids. Considering the success of the Chrysler 300 and Dodge Charger/magnums, GM needs something to combat that now and fast. I know a number of people who buy pick ups mearly because they have a body on frame construction and are RWD V8 vehicles, which is something that you really can’t get anymore.. My father is still driving his 1994 Buick Roadmaster simply because there is not a GM product out there to replace it except a truck and at his age he doesj’t want a truck and he likes the towing ability of the vehicle. Not that he fits the profile of everyone, neither do I but its food for thought. In terms of GM”s advertising I can’t remember the last time I saw an ad selling the virtues of GM vehicle, its always the latest price or deal. People need to understand why you should buy a GM vehicle and sell the virtues of the product, its values, not just its price. That doesn’t build passion in a product. That simply says “well I bought it cause it was on sale” Doesn’t necessarily mean ya get a repeat customer either. You say that GM vehicles are high quality, while I believe it as an owner, what about the Camry owner? What are you telling that customer to win him over…
You really need to make this car. My first car was a 1967 Camaro and it was an awsome car to tool around in. A real head turner in jet black. I sold the car to my brother when I went to college with the option of buying it back if he ever wanted to get rid of it. Unfortunatly, he wrapped it around a tree and killed it. If you build this car, it would be very hard for me to resist buying one.
sincerely,
Scott Brumagin
please make the concept camero a reality it is too beautiful to not ever be made!!!!!!!!!!!
in my opinion, gm lost all credibility when they killed the camaro and trans am. a hot v8 muscle car that was semi cheap with huge amounts of potential. since then they came out with the ugly gto and a slew of fwd vehicles, ie. cobalt. the solstice caught my attention purely on the fact it was rwd and soon to have a turbo version. i’m a chevy guy, but until gm produces a cheap high horsepower muscle car, i’m sticking with the mustang. you can’t beat 300 hp for 25 grand with the retro look everyone wants. rwd is where it’s at for me but the power and quality AND style (no to the gto) has to be there too.
I currently drive a 9-3 with FWD. It is a pig. Borring to drive. Handling… that word doesn’t even come to mind when I’m behind the wheel. I can’t pass when I’m driving 60…. No fun.
I used to drive a Subaru WRX (AWD). I’m probably going to buy another one of these – fun to drive, felt like a rear wheel drive car with the fronts glued to the pavement (little understeer).
I’ve driven a 3-series in the past as well. The driving dynamics of a rear wheel drive car, even when slightly underpowered (mid 1990s 318 for example), RWD give you a more engaging driving experience.
SAAB can be SAAB. There are SAAB enthusiasts. I am not one of them. Not many people are given how few cars SAAB actually sells.
To compete today (with anybody) the car first has to have guts, second has to have handling. RWD or AWD help connect the guts and handling to the road in a more driver friendly way.
FWD has its place for the mass market family movers. But to get to the up-market buyers and to hook entry level kids on GM cars, you need a RWD platform with guts and great handling.
Thanks..MT
GM autos keep getting slammed in enthusiast mags for having pushrod engines driving the front wheels. I currently drive a supercharged Grand Prix GTP and will attest to the fact that controlling the direction of a FWD automobile equipped with a 270 HP engine requires a goodly amount of finesse in the steering input to maintain a solid line – especially in a situation such as accelerating onto a freeway off of a cloverleaf onramp. The Saab 9-3 Viggen would torque steer violently enough to change lanes under WOT if the driver didn’t keep a firm grip on the steering wheel.
I think FWD is perfectly acceptable on GM’s low to mid-priced cars (Cobalt, Impala, LaCrosse, G6). High-end cars (especially V8 powered cars like DTS, Lucerne CXS & Grand Prix GXP) should be AWD or RWD as torque steer (and the various “solutions” which have been employed to tame it) creates too many problems. The downside to a RWD performance sedan is that nobody puts snow tires on anymore since we have been driving V6 powered FWD cars w/ all-season tires for 25 years now. Perhaps the easiest solution is to offer base models with 4 and 6 cylinder power in FWD and high-end models w/ super-or turbocharged V6’s or V8’s in AWD.
GM has a potentially excellent AWD system in the parts bin (Versatrak). Why not beef up that hardware for V8 duty and employ it against heady competition from the likes of revered automakers such as Subaru and BMW…?
I think it’s time for Saab to take the next step.
Saab was early in areas like FWD, turbo performance and safety. But today,most of the competitors can offer turbo. At the same time AWD is getting more popular and RWD is a safe alternative, even on icy roads, due to the introduction of systems like ESP. On passive safety, Saab is still one of the best, but competitors are closing in.
Today, Saab’s specifications are European mainstream and in FWD you have a built in problem competing in the premium segment as the cars are gaining more power.
Now, this is how I personally would like to see my future Saab
Excellent active and passive safety.
Saab is not RWD. Great traction with FWD on entry models (AWD option), AWD standard on performance models. World class passive safety (as today)
“Green power.”
Saab is great performance but without using precious – soon running short- petrol and at the cost of the environment. Ethanol, Turbo & Hybrid. Saab has the chance to lead the way and show the world that being environment friendly is not the same as being boring. (Aero X and 9-3 convertible BioPower-Hybrid)
Passion
Saab is an exciting brand with good heritage. Design with a function (as today) but perhaps more design clues √° la born from jets. Quality you can feel and rely on. Redoing the Talladega race with a BioPower?
All included in one sentence: Saab -Performance & Passion with Responsibility
- I once had a Volvo brochure that discussed all the reasons ‘why Volvo would never go to FWD’ (I sure wish I’d kept a copy) – now isn’t that all they produce? So in the end it’s probably like splitting hairs – or Volvo saw the light.
- I think Saab should go to AWD because it is simply the number one choice when it’s offered. It would also better compete with Audi. (Saab is far more reliable i.e. far better ‘repair record’.)
- In places where the roads aren’t always the easiest to drive on (Canada’s back roads and mountain roads in the winter time) – I think FWD is the preferred option among experienced drivers – that’s why I won’t by a BMW despite all the positive car magazine reviews – the car mag editors are never driving on roads like the ones I drive on daily.
- the Saab issue isn’t just FWD vs RWD – it’s also balance – my Saab has an incredible feel or balance to it – especially on the twisted, ice covered roads. It’s a combination of driver position, the car’s great balance, visibility and road feel. (Mine is a 9000 Aero.) Basically, in the worst road conditions you still have incredible control – something I don’t feel like I have in our AWD Honda Pilot.
I’m a high school student looking to buy my first car. I love driving performance cars and still be able to keep the car under my control. Currently I drive a FWD and I’m tired of having to take my foot off the accelerator to keep traction. GM should focus more on keeping performance cars, size is irrelevant, RWD. For instance, the Cobalt SS would be awesome for such a great price, but the FWD makes you reconsider buying the thing. If they’re gonna make it supercharged, common sense would tell you to make it RWD.
I do not believe your question has an answer. Both FWD, RWD and AWD have benefits and drawbacks. What I drive is not what my parents drive, nor what my son drives. If GM does not have a selection, they will be giving that portion of the market to some other company.
Maybe I’m a bit odd, but do you know what I miss? The Chevette, of all things.
Years back I had a 1978 Chevette, and it was a hoot to drive. It was not very fast, but being RWD it handled quite well for such a cheap car. Not fun to drive in the winter, but fine the rest of the year. I wonder if there is a market for a cheap, small, RWD car these days? Something like a Mazda Miata, but costs at least $5000 less and actually has room for something more than two people and a small suitcase.
Beyond that, there are a few models in the GM lineup that DEFINTELY need to be RWD. Monte Carlo and Impala for starters. Then maybe use the Impala platform for Buick and Olds to play with and see what they can do. Having 350+ HP powering the front wheels always seemed like a good way to get killed when trying to avoid an obstacle around a blind corner than actually having a good time.
FWD makes perfect sense for a lot of the line-up. In the sub-compact, compact, and mid-size lines I think FWD is perfect. It leaves lots of room for people and cargo. Same with the minivans.
High powered FWD cars are just not logical. People often complain about the bad performance of RWD in snow and rain. However, I’ve seen many more FWD cars fishtail in bad weather than RWD because there is no way to bring the back end under control. With RWD you have power and control if the car goes into a slide. People who complain about RWD instability should grow up and learn how to drive in bad weather.
I believe that the winning formula for a GM “performance” small car is a RWD vehicle designed specifically around the Ecotec family of four potters with a Rear Mounted Transmission (RMT). The the RMT will allow two distinguishing attributes — one being that the weight distribution can be ~48F/52R, the other being that the front foot well space will be exemplary. There may be a larger tunnel and hump between the rear seats, but that is minor — if a buyer really wants a maximum rear passenger comfort he’ll buy a Malibu anyway. The car should weigh under 3100 lbs, be roughly the same size as the recently departed 2001-2005 Civic. Keep it simple and just offer two engines (the 170hp 2.4 liter LE5 Ecotec and the 260hp 2.0 liter LNF Ecotec SIDI turbo) and make the 6L50E 6-speed automatic standard with a 6M available as a no cost option on select trims. The vehicle should use unequal width tires — I suggest 225/45 R17 front and 255/40 R17 rear. The vehicle can be priced slightly ABOVE the competition (ala VW) as long as similar interior quality as the Saturn Aura can be maintained, or better yet surpassed.
I vote for rear wheel drive. Sure it will take some interior space, but it will always be better to drive. And that is an important selling point for cars in all segments.
For those who argue it is only for cars with high sporting pretensions, take a look at BMW. BMW makes all sorts of cars in RWD. RWD is just simply the better drive, and it’s less “busy” at all speed. GM, please start making cars in RWD.
economy/compact= FWD
performance/full size=RWD
IMO anything with an SS should have and always be RWD. I never owned a front wheel drive GM nor will i ever. Im sorry if seem close minded but I have driven and worked on numerous GM front wheel drive vehicles from the early 80s on up till now. I think GM should make a car that is similar to the G-bodys of the 80s.
I prefer rear wheel drive over front wheel drive– even in a compact economy car.
Why?
1) Preference. I first owned a 1969 Ford Mustang (RWD). Second car is a Honda Prelude VTEC (FWD). The Prelude has very little torque and there is only so much engineers can do to overcome the tendency of the nose-heavy front wheels to become unloaded during acceleration. Also, when I want to power out of a turn, I have to deal with UNDERSTEER! I loathe understeer.
2) Economy cars where not always FWD. I know about the “interior packaging” argument. Economy cars should have 5 doors anyway. Examples: 1980’s Toyota Tercel and Corrolla, 1970’s Ford Pinto and AMC Gremlin, even the Honda Civic Wagon 4WD came very close. They did it then, so why not now?
3) Rain and snow conditions: ever hear of all-wheel-drive as an option? How about modern traction control systems to minimize a loss of control to the rear drive wheels in bad weather?
4) I am so tired of the bland and underpowered, understeering feel of any front-drive car, I will never buy one again. Rear-Drive and All-Wheel-Drive ONLY. No arguments. I won’t buy a FWD car. I’ve owned one FWD sportscar and driven many FWD sedans that are not my own.
5) If you folks are interested in capturing the hearts of young buyers with your small cars I’ve got news for you: this young buyer thinks the Honda Civic Si is and always was a JOKE. So is the Cobalt SS and Saturn Ion Redline.
If I were looking for a used car to hop up because I saw nothing new I wanted or could afford, I would NOT look into a Honda or any other front-drive car. Rear drive has a more substantial feel, takes to aggressive driving more naturally, is able to handle a powerful engine more effectively and allows a person to partake in acts of random, fun stupidity in ways that a FWD isn’t capable of.
6) The Dodge Neon SRT-4 is the ONLY exception… if you want a muscle car. The new Mazdaspeed 3 is getting some great reviews. I personally won’t bother with it.
You should concentrate on small rear-drive vehicles that can seat at least four people. I hate it that there is no 2+2 or sedan styled Kappa car!!! Do not be afraid to try sedans and coupes. And stick with small turbocharged engines for these cars. It ain’t broke, so….
One last thing:
My future purchases need to be California friendly. Meaning if I have to buy one of your cars for $18,000 and I am not satisfied with the horsepower of the vehicle, I may want to modify the engine.
Factory turbocharged and supercharged cars are by far the only modern “enthusiast” cars that can take horsepower modification and still get away with some of it semi-legally.
Bottom line:
Start focusing on rear wheel drive and all wheel drive for any performance applications (with a rear drive bias) and…. start thinking in terms of offering all wheel drive on as many cars as you can.
The laws of physics, as realted to automobile driving, didn’t magically change when Japan started selling front drive cars. Get back to rear drive, GM. Even for little cars.
I think young buyers are looking for two basic things in a car – hot looks and speed. The winning formula in my eyes is a car whose body is made entirely of lightweight composite materials, RWD, and a small forced induction engine placed behind the driver for a good weight balance. Young buyers want to beat a Corvette from a stop for cheap and want the car to drive like its on rails. The only way to get there is to use carbon fiber, aluminum, and other novel materials to cut down on the weight. If GM builds a car that weighs about 1200 lbs and has about 200RWHP that would definitely sell well, especially if there is a strong factory-warranty aftermarket to make the car go even faster
RWD offers more feedback to the driver, better cornering. I have a European RWD car now and am in the market for something else. But nobody makes anything close to what I have now that I would consider because all the cars are FWD. I want to know what’s going on with all the wheels and the engine, but that’s difficult with FWD. Also, with FWD if you lose traction because the drive wheels spin, you also lose the ability to steer the car. With RWD, this doesn’t happen and you can still have control over the direction of the car. In cornering, the RWD car can accelerate in or out of the corner sooner and harder without losing steering. Also, if the rear wheels do spin, it’s easy enough to decelerate and regain traction, something else you cannot do with FWD. If the rear wheels lose traction in a FWD car, you’re toast.
We like rear wheel drive or
all wheel drive or 4 wheel drive. We hate the front wheel drives. We also hate the small and compact vehicles. Bring back the Buick wild cat or roadmaster. Most vehicles leave no room for a manual wheel chair or motorized wheel chair. These smaller vehicles leave nothing but plastic between you and the next guy in a car wreck. Please go back to good old steel bodied vehicles
Please, Please bring back RWD, FWD is junk – the sure sign of a piece of crap car. If you notice, the quality, desirable cars are all RWD,with a few exceptions.
Front wheel drive cars can be a lot of fun especially in low traction situations such as dirt roads, gravel, snow, rain, etc. That said, I’d prefer a rear wheel drive car most of the time.
The wife drives a sporty compact FWD hatch-back. I own a RWD musclecar…which I’m considering selling in order to purchase a smaller RWD sports car.
Front wheel drive is crap. Why would you want the majority of the braking and accelatering done with the two front tires?
FWD should never go into production ever again! I own an 07 SS cobalt and i hate how its FWD. If GM made a RWD cobalt i would buy it in a heartbeat! FWD is no fun in my opinon, it spins off the line, it sucks in the snow, i just hate fwd. Sports cars like the cobalt should without question be RWD or better yet AWD! Im considering converting my cobalt to RWD just because it would be more fun! Anyone who wants a FWD should be slapped… repeatedly : )
I currently drive a 2000 Chev MonteCarlo. Great car by the way. But the best improvement you could’ve made to that car is to put the drive wheels in the back where they belong. Oh and I’m in Canada and still prefer a rear wheel drive vehicle even for winter. My car sucks in the snow. Otherwise its a great car. The best car I ever drove in the snow was my Dads 1989 Pontiac Safari wagon. That would plow through any type of conditions. All wheel drive assist on a rear wheel drive car would be the perfect set up. But with an off switch so you can drive in a pure rwd mode.