Disgruntled Auto Execs Speak Out on Spy Photography
Take a look at this Detroit Free Press video profile on photographer Jim Dunne, “The Spy Who Loves Cars.” Jim gives his thoughts on what life is like as a spy photographer, with a few “kind” words from some of Detroit’s most well-known auto execs. -Christopher Barger, Director, GM Global Communications Technology
- Posted in Bob Lutz
Andrew Roberts
I’d love his job.
I love cars and I love photography.
One of Fords UK test facilities is only some 20 miles from my house…
I was looking for an excuse to buy that zoom lens…
Fred
Ahaha! Bob is freakin awesome.
steve
Perhaps if Bob Lutz were as dedicated to his profession as is Jim Dunne, he’d have been able to keep a job at one company for as many years as Dunne has! Dunne has been at POP MECHANICS since 1985 or so … Seriously, Lutz’ phonied-up anger over the free publicity Dunne has given Lutz’ many employers over the years comes across as a sad joke … It’s time for him to retire, fly his fighter planes where he likes and enjoy himself a bit … And stop shoving losers like the “new” GTO down America’s throats … Hey Bob! You CAN take a joke, can’t you? And stop flashing that “Marine Corps” tie clip!
Gary Dikkers
That is so 1950’s.
In the era of planned obsolecence it was important what a car looked like, and the major automakers had to closely keep their future models secret. Afterall, it wouldn’t have been good form for Ford or Chrysler to put a model on the showroom floor in September with larger tailfins, would it?
But those days are long gone. What matters now is what is inside the car, not how it looks. The critical questions are:
Those are the important questions, and not one of them can be answered by a spy photographer.
Regards,
Gary Dikkers
ted
Looks still matter for new cars. Actually, if theoretically planned obsolesence wasn’t in the plan anymore, looks would be even more important to get people to buy a new car, since the old one didn’t break down as quickly. I wish companies would copy each other less when it comes to new car design.
And please stop picking on the Corvair. Only the early ones had any issue at all, and the remote possiblility of rolling one required that the owner run with near-flat tires and drive around corners like a total idiot. Bugs had the same suspension their entire existence, but the tires were so skinny that you’d just slide off the road first, then roll over. Of course, GM was a bigger target for Nader than VW, and he was looking for fame.
Scott
Keep flashing that Marine Corps tie clip, Bob!
*** See “Steve’s” comments for reference. ***
John
Good to see that GM is making such great cars and so far ahead in market share that one of its top executives has the free time to recommend assaulting photographers with baseball bats.
Oh, wait, Toyota just passed GM for total market share, GM doesn’t have a single vehicle that gets 40mph hwy, and most of its passenger cars score in the bottom half of comparison tests done by the automotive media.
Looks like the joke’s on you Bob.
On the plus side, at least you KNOW a decent car when you see one, which puts you head and shoulders above the rest of General Motors’ executive staff.
Beaugrand
GM should have put Jim Dunne on the payroll decades ago; his “spy” photography has served only to keep the automotive reading public interested in what would otherwise be “ho-hum” annual styling makeovers that the traditional “Big Three” domestic car companies employ to disguise the overall lack of real innovation in their products.
kurtW
What one sees in a spy photo is not necessarily what one gets in the showroom. But it can be an indicator of where your favorite brand is “going”.
Still, a “spy” photo of a new car excites many car owners, and helps keep the brands’ name in their (and my) minds. Is that so bad, Bob? Your testers always have the option to heavily disguise the vehicles!
But I agree with Gary above that what’s __under__ the surface is more important. That’s something neither Dunne nor any of the “spy” photographers can capture.
Brendan
If GM’s pompus execs are against something, then it must be something good. They were against competition, safety devices, higher fuel economy, worker unity, and of course: public snapshots of their vehicles. Boo-hoo, wahh-wahh.
Frankie
“Did the marketeers and bean counters make the critical decisions during the car’s development, or was it the engineers?”
The answer is no.
The new 2008 Accord is shown at the Autoblog website. Very bland and mainstream design. BUT first quality components and none inexcusable poor quality components.
We now have to buy Accord and Camry in our showroom to have the customer test the competition. While I don’t doubt for a minute that the new Malibu is superior ,a lot of customers will still opt for the Asians because they are recommended by Consumer Reports.
Bobby 5thgen69camaro
Bob youre awesome!!
Edward Hayes
Jim,
He probably has been one of the most important people in my life up to this point. I was but 8 or 10 years old when I started looking at the hot sheets waiting, anticipating, studying and hoping for the day when GM, Ford and Chrysler would begin to design the cars that would keep the imports at bay.
I recall the camouflaged Camaro/Firebird circa 1994 and the Aurora camo pick that was taken soon after. I recall the Firebird’s big rounded fog holes, significant because that picture alone proved that GM was serious about product differentiation. Yup, my life would have been a lot more boaring without good, quality characters like my friend Jim Dunne.
The ultimate prize still awaits. That is a Cadillac supercar and a Buick FJ Efijy in camo, then I will know that GM is serious about getting its design house not only back in order, but back on top as well.
In these changing times I do understand however, that drive train technology is becoming just as important as the cars design itself, and those things cannot be spied. But without drive train innovations the design revolution is threatened. With as much focus put on drive train technology as design itself, such as hydrogen, ethanol and hybrids, that is only going to fuel greater design.
Imagine if hydrogen technology does take off a decade from now and GM is no longer constrained with design as far as size, height and weight. That is when we truly can explore designs that return to the elegance of yesterday. High seating positions, high belt lines, contoured body designs, rounded trunks, longer hoods that can stretch as far as the designers imaginations.
I believe those days are coming, err, coming back, and sooner than we all think. Stop and check out the breakthroughs they are discovering with respect to corn based ethanol, cellulose ethanol, battery technology and even the old internal combustion engine. There is not a soul on earth that can keep up with all the breakthroughs that are happening because that is where our money is going.
I was happy, uplifted and excited to hear the future plans that some have speculated about Buick. Even more heartened to hear of great plans eluded to by Mark La Neve in the Freep concerning Cadillac and Hummer. This is GM going in the right direction. Follow Saturn/Opel’s lead and you got it.
Speaking of got it, I went to my local Buick, Pontiac, GMC and Hummer dealership and picked up the Hummer H3 for a great lease price. (New Hummer dealership is to be built on property next to existing dealership soon they tell me. Hope it’s Buick/Hummer.)
Everybody, now is the time to get a great deal, I still can’t believe, just can’t believe,
LEASING A HUMMER H3 COST LESS THAN LEASING MY CAVALIER IN 2000!
Gee, thanks GM. My first Lutzonian car and definitely not the last.
Mike Jules
Just a few words regarding the possible production of the Camaro.Chevy should also offer all wheel drive,not only rear wheel drive.
An alternataive fuel(electric,flex or whatever)would also be a definite deal maker for alot of people on the fence with this beauty.
Gary Dikkers
A strange reaction on Lutz’s part. You’d think he’d apreciate the publicity — that is unless GM is afraid the new models will hurt sales of the older models on the show room floor they’re waiting for gullible consumers to buy. (If he had any confidence in his current models, he would think the advance photos would hurt sales of his competitor’s old models.)
If I were Lutz, the way I’d fight spy photography is to forget about the baseball bat and say, “Take all the photos you want. We don’t care if our competitors know what our cars will look like. Instead, we’re going to blow them away with quality-built cars; topflight engineering; innovation; an excellent dealer and service network; the best value for the money; reliability; and a warranty second to none.”
V/R
Gary Dikkers
Andrew Roberts
I’m amazed that so many people care more about whether a vehicle is a hybrid and what gas mileage it gets than anything else.
Toyota may have huge sales nowadays but their cars are just so DULL! They look dull on the outside and dull on the inside. They offer nothing in terms of an enjoyable drive, they don’t handle well and they have no character or soul.
I’m amazed that some of the worlds dullest cars, the Camry, the Corolla etc sell so well when they’re so joyless. Is buying a car now the same as buying a refrigerator?
At least GM makes cars that make people look, something cool and fun you can aspire to own (and in reality can afford as opposed to some high end exotica). You never mistake a Detroit car with a Japanese one.
What’s this obsession with over 40mpg on the highway? I don’t want a gas guzzler any more than anyone else but people asking for all wheel drive and better gas mileage are clearly completely unaware of what affects fuel consumption. Those things contradict each other.
Due to the outrageous cost of fuel in Europe mpg is a real concern and the only cars to get over 40mpg (US) are the diesel cars. No gasoline ones, even the tiny Smart car can’t do it and neither can the Prius. And no-one ver matches the claimed figures anyway no matter what brand of car they drive.
In excess of 40mpg using gasoline in any reasonably sized vehicle is *almost* impossible and if you add all wheel drive to it even less so.
And hybrids are *not* the answer. They vastly improve gas mileage in town driving *if* driven carefully. On the highway they tend to get *worse* gas mileage as you’re now hauling around some motors and batteries. Extra weight = less gas mileage.
You’ll lower your fuel bill by changing your driving style more than changing your car (unless you own a real gas guzzler and change to an economy car).
That’s not to say let GM build gas guzzlers, but don’t point to Toyota and hybrids as if they’re the finest vehicles on the road and berate GM for selling anything that doesnt get 40mpg.
Do you want to drive around in your refrigerator?
JohnP
Obviously Gary Dikkers cares so little about the looks and style of a car that he would rather they all look like eggs. Not bad aerodynamically, shell as hard as , well, an egg, they come in small medium large and extra large, and you can even get them in brown , in addition to traditional industry white.
Some of us, on the other hand, value style as much as, or even greater than substance (although the total package must be reliable, and cheap to fix)We’re the ones who gobbled up the Copper Mountain spy shots of the Solstice (which included GXP mules, and last new Impala SS) and just wish Dunne were a ski bum, as he would have been there, with a better cameraq and position. J.D. keep up the good work for as long as you can (and train up some new car-papparazzi to take your place).
Shaun
Keep up the good work, Bob. GM is turning it around. The great new Enclave, Camaro, new CTS, new SUVs and pickups, and all of the new Saturn stuff is showing that GM is moving in the right direction. Honorabe mentions to the HHR, Solstice, new Malibu and Lucerne as well. In fact, I can’t think of a new car you guys have shown in the last 2 years that hasn’t failed to improve significantly upon its predecessors, which is a very marked change from before. Even if the sales don’t immediately show it, they eventually will as perceptions take a while to change.
Build two of those great little compact cars you guys showed in New York, make one a hybrid/flex and shut these morons going on and on about the over hyped (and under delivering) Prius up.
Gary Dikkers
Andrew Roberts said:
Andrew,
They may seem dull, but — and this is a huge but — they don’t look bad, plus they are well-built and reliable.
You are no doubt younger than I am. As you get older, and more concerned with getting from Point A to Point B instead of impressing girls or compensating for a lack of masculinity, you’ll discover quality and reliability to be at the forefront of what people need in a car.
My very first car was an AMC Javelin with a manual four-speed and a big V-8. Had lots of fun with that car, but that’s not what I want now for commuting or driving with the familily from the Midwest to Colorado. If I still had the Javelin I might have fun taking it cruising on Wednesday nights, but the rest of the time it would sit in the garage — it’s not what I want for my fulltime Point-A-to-Point-B car.
JohnP said:
That’s not true John. But I do value reliability and quality above looks as necessary traits in a vehicle.
All things being equal, I would take a better looking car, but I wouldn’t pick style above substance and reliability.
I once had a friend who had a Jaguar XKE. Couldn’t have asked for better styling, but I wouldn’t ride on a trip of 100 miles with him — there was a better than even chance he would have to call AAA before arriving at his destination.
Of course the ideal combination is style PLUS reliability and quality. If GM first gets quality and reliability right, they can then work on style.
To be more concerned about style and outraged about “spy photographers” means they have their priorities wrong.
Cordially,
Gary Dikkers
Luke
To each our own; I will not buy a car because of looks… That means that looks aren’t enough to convince me to buy it, and I’ll scratch a car because it’s ugly.
Cars whose looks turn me off: Chevy avalanche, Pontiac Aztec, the entire Hummer line, and those things that look like the Suburban/Tahoe pictures whose nameplate I can’t read because I’m too busy trying not to be run over.
Vehicles whose looks turn me on: the Volt isn’t bad, but I’m most interested in the hybrid aspect, and really hoping for a diesel-electric.
But these are my preferences and yours may vary — hopefully GM can sell cars that we’ll both like.
BTW, when is the new Volt report going to be posted?
Frank
I agree John, styling is number one. Ideally you would want the best of both worlds, but if I had to choose, I would rather drive a well styled American car that doesn’t get “the best” gas mileage, over something that can get 50 MPG and looks like garbage **Cough Prius**
Paul
For me it is the same. A car is a machine that gets me from one place to another. I want one that does it inexpensively and reliably. Whether it has curves or boxy shapes is irrelevant to me.
Unlike most Americans, I think how a car looks is about as important as how many cup holders it has. I work hard to completely remove emotion from decision making, especially with something as expensive as a car.
Absolutely correct. I was able to squeeze 37 mpg out of my Protege when I was commuting 40 miles each way to work every day, even though it’s rated at 29mpg on the highway.
I don’t think the same people want those things. I don’t want all wheel drive, but I do want over 40 mpg. I recognize that I’m not going to find a car that can carry large quantities of lumber or tow a boat or carry seven people that will get over 40 mpg, but I’m okay with that. (I hardly ever do those things anyway.)
I’d still rather have a Prius that consistently gets over 50mpg, as my parents does, than a Cobalt or Astra that only gets 34 mpg at best.
Ted
One thing I miss in my G6 Coupe is something I had in my 91 Toronado, a readout for instantaneous gas mileage, not just average mpg. This was a great tool to figure out your best cruising speed on the highway, or to see just how much jackrabbit accelleration affects gas mileage. I could often pull 30+ mpg on the highway using this tool. The computer obviously still collects this information to update average fuel economy, why not display it ?
Dave
Well, I for one would like
style but with alittle economy! The Saturn Astra that’s comming to the US
,looks darn good. It would look even better in my driveway with a Bifuel power
engine,Maybe Gas/Natural gas,
GM already builds it in Europe!
John
“I’m amazed that so many people care more about whether a vehicle is a hybrid and what gas mileage it gets than anything else.”
Yeah, given that 50% of our oil comes from overseas, and a significant portion of that comes from nations with populations hostile to America and the American way of life, gas mileage is pretty important.
Given that a few cents from every gallon of gas is helping to fund terrorists and terror sponsoring nations, I’d prefer to use as little gasoline as possible.
If that doesn’t bother you, or it’s worth it to you to be able to drive a gas guzzler, that’s your call.
Me, I’m having fun driving my new Corolla around. 32mpg city/41hwy, and it’s a stick-shift with a peppy engine, so I have fun AND get decent mileage.
Edward Hayes
Ted,
That is a very good question, I think everyone would want to know exactly how to optimize their fuel economy by knowing how much gas their car is using at every point between acceleration, cruising and braking. That is a fantastic idea and very timely.
I think GM should consider this technology on its new “green” vehicles as it will appeal to those customers already concerned about gas mileage.
It is people like you and questions like these that make this forum invaluable.
Alright GM your response?
Randy
I am so sick of the line that appears here: “Keep up the good work, Bob!”
Where is all this good work?
Most of GM’s current lineup he’s approved. Think about that.
What else is going on under his retirement gig? GM is still burning $20M cash per day, market share is still declining, badge engineering is still rampant (even the idiotic Trailblazer/Saab SUV), assets are being sold off like wildfire, he ridiculed the Prius and showed a Volt that couldn’t be made, there’s no 40MPG small cars, no small diesels, the large RWD car market–and now the minivan market–is still abandoned, 45% of Pontiac goes to fleet sales, too many models, too many dealers, too many GM managers, GM fell to #2, many GM cars are still crude/numb to drive, layoffs in the U.S., thousands of engineers hired overseas, GM has zero book value… is that enough?
Paul
If you’re talking about the “Triplets,” Bob Lutz said that, even if they build them, they’re not bringing them to the US. (Source: http://www.caranddriver.com/autoshows/12781/lutz-us-not-a-frontrunner-to-get-a-new-chevy-minicar.html)
So I guess they won’t shut this moron up.
(Also, the Prius must be delivering something, since its sales are up 59% over April last year.)
mark lamb
With all due respect…
Paul,
“for me it’s the same”
If it was, you would not blog about your new refrigerator..Or would you… hmm….
“I squeezed 37 mpg out of my Protoge”
I got 35 mpg out of my 97 grand prix loaded with luggage, kids, wife, and driving 85 mph on the ny turnpike and any place else without being sqeezed outside or inside the car.
“rather drive a Prius”
What are all the environmentlists going to do with the 300 pounds of batteries in each prius when they dispose of the car, and, don’t get in an accident that requies the fire dept to use the jaws of life- they have to disconnect the battery first so they don’t get electricuted, and, what happens to the occupent if they can’t access the battery connection?!! What’s the price of great fuel economy then??
Gary,
Chill out, the spy photographer stuff was a joke. hello.. You must think Animal House was a serious drama..
“they may seem dull”, Toyota,
I like lexus, but Toyota with the SMASHED-BUG-ON-THE-GRILL-LOGO is dicusting.. I guess it’s o.k. for the old maid/librarian types who drive them. I guess they want a car that they know they look better than..
MY experiance with gm reliability…
1980 chevy citation 188,000 miles which i traded for a
1983 pontiac grand prix 127,000, which i traded for a
1990 pontiac grand prix 132,000 miles which i sold to a mechanic so i could lease a
1997 pontiac grand prix 60,000 miles when lease ended then bought a
2000 gmc sierra which i still own now with 170,000 miles,
2004 pontiac grand prix gtp now with 75,000 miles which i will pass on to my daughter in college so i can buy either a caddy cts or a new pontiac g8 next year.
The point is , if you hav’nt tried something and don’t think you like it, try it, you may be suprised how good it is.
regards, Mark L
Andrew Roberts
Mark:
I couldn’t agree with you more.
Paul:
As pointed out, do you post on refrigerator blogs about the reliability and power efficiency of your chosen brand of refrigerator over the others? Of course you don’t. For some people cars really are just appliances that are a necessary evil, but anyone reading this sort of blog is either a car enthusiast or simply likes stirring and trolling for arguings sake. I’m not pointing any fingers here so please don’t take offence.
Gary:
It certainly does sound like I’m younger than you, I’m in my early 30s.
I pay $7 per gallon so believe me, I care about fuel economy. What I don’t do though is berate a manufacturer for making just 1 or 2 mpg less than another as if that’s all that matters. What about toal cost of ownership? What about repair costs or servicing? Take hybrids, what do Toyota plan to do when it comes time to dispose of the old batteries? And who is going to pay for the new ones? We’re talking thousands of dollars here. And would the Prius be as attractive if they weren’t selling it at a loss? The price is already higher than competing cars of a similar size making the financial return on your initial investment a lengthy process. Throw in those new batteries and it isn’t an especially attractive proposition, financially or enviromentally. And if you had to pay another $5,000 on the sticker price (closer to the true cost) would you be as keen?
I’m truly floored by how people have swallowed the marketing and media hype with regards to hybrid vehicles instead of thinking it through.
I want to make something clear, I’m not saying cars should look great and who cares about gas mileage and reliability. I place a high value on reliability having been left stranded by the side of the road several times in brand new BMW’s, any character or driving enjoyment gets wiped out in that instant. I think Alfa Romeos are some of the most beautiful cars on the road today, but I wouldn’t ever consider buying one as I don’t want to battle with the electrics on a daily basis.
Reliability is very important, and I drive a modern Cadillac (an expensive proposition in the UK due to the 75% markup on the sticker price and the fact I pay 3 times as much for fuel as you do). But it has never let me down, looks smart, is exceedingly comfortable and powerful. The fuel consumption is no worse than european cars in the same class (ie size and engine) and seems better than my friends BMW 330i. Yet everyone I know assumes my Cadillac is far thirstier than their car and are always amazed that it’s no worse. Old reputations die hard…
V8’s aren’t universally thirsty, I remember making a 600 mile trip in my 8 Camaro which had a 5.0L TPI engine and I got 43mpg (UK gallon) and doing the same journey in a 1.8L Ford Focus returned 45mpg. Hardly a difference worth worrying about n return for the smoother, quieter drive. (1,600rpm for 5 hours is a lot more tolerable than 3,000rpm for 5 hours let me tell you). If you live in an urban area (I live on London) then yes, a small engined economy car (or hybrid) is far more cost effective. But with the distances Americans drive and the fact that your traffic flows so much better and there is less stop/start I’m not so convinced.
I find the claims of consistent 50mpg+
).
in a Prius a little difficult to swallow as that amount to 60mpg (UK gallon) and while I only personally know 2 people who own a Prius I know they are not getting anything like that from their car and they are very conservative drivers. (older than me
I don’t find Japanese cars any more reliable than mainstream european ones or american imports (imports from my point of view). I do however find them expensive when they go wrong and for reasons I cannot fathom they seem to make no effort with the styling. Making something look nice hardly means it must give poor gas mileage or fail more often. The exception is the current Honda Civic, which looks fabulous.
At the moment I think the Japanese and the Germans (and hybrids in general) have an undeserved halo reputation and I’m just hoping people start noticing it before it is too late for the big 3.
Beaugrand
Ted,
I had a 1964 Chrysler that had the exact item: it was called a vacuum guage. You can still find them in auto parts stores, a competent mechanic can install it in under an hour.
Why auto manufacturers don’t install them any more (or offer them as options) is a mystery to me.
AC
I hate spy photography. The shots are always of covered-up test vehicles, providing you with nothing visual.
Bill
Ted:
I fully understand what you are saying about the instantaneous fuel economy feature. I have that on my 2007 Saturn AURA!
noel park
I have an insant fuel consumption readout on my 2004 Silverado 3500 dually crewcab with the 8.1 gas engine. “Economy” is not the word for this one.
Why anyone would want to put it there I cannot imagine, but it came with the package. When you pull away from a stop with a fully loaded trailer, it will almost stop your heart. 1-1-1-1-1, 2-2-2-2-2, 3-3-3-3-3, and so on.
Ted is right though, it is a good driver training aid. They tell you to drive a race car like you have an egg between your foot and the gas pedal. Totally true in this case as well! Lots of coasting and drafting 18 wheelers on the Interstate.
Fred
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE develop a hybrid Saturn Ion. I live in CA and believe GM could gain a new generation of cusotmers in LA and the Bay Area with such a vehiecle. As a stock holder and a child of a GM lifer you got to deliver this car!!!!
Adam
Bob–
One word: Fiero. Where is it? What a great time to revive the mid-engine sports car, just as everyone has abandoned the market. Flip the Kappa car suspension front suspension around and you’ve got a better starting point than the Chevette for it!