More on Fuel Efficiency/Economy, Part 4
Editor’s note: Part 4 in a series of responses by Dave Lancaster. - Will Stewart, blog editor
As it happens, I’ve driven the Cobalt. The performance of the 2.2L was unimpressive. The Corolla’s 1.8L manages peak torque just about equal to the Chevy 2.2L. I wouldn’t be surprised to find the Corolla is quicker, as it weighs 400lbs less. Actual observations, reported on the EPA site, put the Corolla significantly ahead in fuel economy.
I notice the 2.4 requires premium fuel; therefore, a Cobalt with a 2.4L engine is not an economy car.
For me, the question is, where can I go to get superb fuel economy? GM? No. Honda? Yes. Toyota? Yes. I don’t care what else they build, as long as they have something that meets my needs.
Posted by: Charlie
Dave: Charlie, the Cobalt’s 2.2L engine has 149 lb-ft of torque and 152 hp vs. 122 lb-ft and 126 hp in the Corolla’s 1.8L engine. Those differences are in line with the size of the engines. They are both well developed engines with similar technology levels.
More importantly, you are incorrect when you say the 2.4L requires premium fuel. For that engine, premium fuel is recommended, not required. The difference is not insignificant. For many customers driving a vehicle with premium fuel recommended, regular fuel will be quite adequate most of the time. It’s only when you are driving in a hot or dry environment, towing or trying to get maximum performance out of your engine that you really need the higher octane fuel. If you have an engine that is premium recommended, it is reasonable to try using regular or midgrade fuel in your normal driving and see if you encounter knock. As long as you aren’t in one of those situations where the control system senses knock and retards the spark, you can save money. (Premium required engines such as the Corvette LS7, Supercharged Northstar LC3 and Turbocharged Direct Injected 2.0L LNF really do need premium all the time.)
- Posted in Cars & Trucks
Noel Park
Can you tell us anything about the turbocharged 1.4 Ecotec rumored for the 2009 Cobalt? Will it speak to this issue? What transmissions will be offered?
Will the 2009 Cobalt speak to the weight issue raised by Charlie? 400 pounds is a killer.
Fred
Hmmm, interesting that he called the 2.2L’s performance “unimpressive”. If I’m not mistaken the base Cobalt has a 0-60 of ~8 seconds. Considerably quicker than the Corolla 1.8L.
Do you think he really has driven a Cobalt?
Noel Park
If I’m driving a Cobalt, I couldn’t care less about the 0-60 time. What is the gas mileage, that’s the question?
Steven
Are you serious? When was the last time you saw someone towing with their Cobalt? Maybe I’m wrong and JC Whitney is right as they sell towing mirrors for the Cobalt.
BTW: Car and Driver Magazine:
1.8 L, I-4, 5 speed Manual
0-60 7.9 sec. Others have the Cobalt listed at “under 8.5 secs”.
Chris R
It could be that he’s referring to the 1.8 VVT engine offered in some Corollas. In which case the performance numbers would be comparable to the 2.4 Ecotec. Quite honestly, I find the 2.4 to be a much better engine for street use than anything with variable timing. VVT and systems like it add unnecessary complexity to an already complex engine, and really don’t offer much in the way of everyday street performance unless you like driving around with the tach sitting at 6,000 RPM. Fuel milage on my 2.4 is quite comparable with what the Corolla and Matrix owners that I know tell me that they are getting as well. Oh, and I’ve never used premium in my 2.4L car, and have never had a problem with pinging.
SteveG
I test drove a Corolla. It was the worst car I have ever driven. The engine was coarse and weak, sounded like a lawn mower. I had to absolutely floor it just to get it onto the freeway.
I ended up buying a used Cobalt and the engine(2.2) is MUCH stronger.
Rene Curry
Will GM performance parts be offering turbo-charged 2.0 EcoTechs & transmissions for RWD applications? Are there any other light turbo-charged RWD 4s in the pipeline?
Charlie H
Fred, yes, I really have driven a Cobalt.
Dave, thanks for your reply. I had looked up the 2.4L engine on Edmunds and they said premium is required. You should get in touch with them and let them know they’ve got a mistake there. I suppose the engine needs premium to make full rated power.
However, I’ll explain my thinking on that… if premium was required, since it’s $.30 or so more than regular, that wouldn’t be “economical” by any means.
That turns out not to be the case.
Rob N.
My 1976 Camero LT had a 305 V8 that got 140 hp. While this was the smaller of the two engines offered it did not seem that the car was under-powered. Now GM is offering a turbocharged direct-injected dual overhead cam Variable Valve Timed (VVT) 2.0L ECOTEC that gets 260-hp. On the HHR this engine gets 21 mpg city and 29 mpg highway with the five-speed manual. This is the same MPG as the base 2.2L engine with the manual transmission except the highway number is one MPG less. What if GM kept the turbocharged technology the same and sized the engine to get the 149 hp of the HHR base 2.2L engine? I wonder what the MPG would be then. The drive to pack technology into engines to get greater horse power needs to shift to a drive to pack technology into engines to get greater MPG. Consumers are desperate to reduce the amount money being spent on gasoline. I was talking to a friend who said the extra $300 he is spending a month for his two vehicles has eliminated dining out for his family.
Nick
Dave,
This is a little off topic, but I am so mad, I wanted GM to see this.
Right now, I am in the market for a car in the 15-20K range. As an Avg guy in his mid 20s, that’s basically all I can afford. I would like to ask you a question, and I want you to be honest. Would you rather buy a Cobalt, or a Civic? As a die hard Chevy guy, the thought of buying a Civic has never even cross my mind….until now. One of my best friends just picked up a new Civic and he let me drive it around. It felt really solid, it looked really nice, good pickup, and the instrument cluster blew me away. I went to the Chevy dealer by my house the other day and tried out the Cobalt. The first thing that turned me off is its looks. It looks like a cheesy 90s tuner(coupe), the interior was bland, and it just felt cheap compared to the Civic. I am soooo mad, not because the Civic feels better, but because now im stuck! I don’t want to buy Foreign, but there is no way im spending all my hard earned money on a Cobalt!
Please, im sure im not the only one who feels this way! Please update the Cobalt ASAP!!!!
HotCarNut
Fred,
He probably felt the Corolla was quicker because the tach was pegged from the time he touched the gas. Most people don’t have a very accurate sense of speed and acceleration, instead relying on sound to guide them.
Sam I Am
This seems typical of the Japanese car loving propaganda machine that can’t stand it when a domestic car spanks one of their media darling imports.
Remember Joe Isuzu?
Bill
I think Charlie’s comment is exemplary of the unwarranted GM bashing that has been common this decade. People approach GM products with a desire to fulfill a preconceived notion that domestic products are inferior and they look for things to criticize. And on the other hand, these people expect to find things that they like in Toyotas and Hondas and they forgive shortcomings that would be lombasted in a GM or Ford product. This bias is unfortunate but it seems that reputation is beginning to catch up with reality given the media’s warm review of products such as the new Malibu and CTS.
Glenn
I found an interesting FUEL SAVING article / technology.
Coates Demonstrates CSRV Technology with Flawless Performance and 27.5 - 30.4% Fuel Savings. November 2007
“Sustainable Planet” Show to Feature Coates International, Ltd.
The producers of Sustainable Planet are pleased to announce that Coates International, Ltd. (OTCBB: COTE) will be featured in an upcoming episode as part of the show’s Environmental Impact series on Rising Stars in Engine Innovations to Reduce Energy Consumption and Help to Green the Globe.
Performance-wise, the Coates Spherical Rotary Valve System beats the conventional poppet valve combustion engine hands-down:
– Lower Fuel Consumption
– Higher Thermal Efficiency
– Lower Harmful Emissions
– Less Oil Changes
– Make a positive impact toward mitigating global warming
Our CSRV system technology makes possible the use of alternative fuels and multi-fuel systems in internal combustion engines while reducing fuel consumption, thereby enabling reduction of the dependency by the U.S. on foreign imported oil.
The CSRV system is adaptable to combustion engines of many types.
source: Marketwire
Additional information on Coates International’s innovative technology can be found online, at http://www.coatesengine.com.
Joe
While i would call the 2.2 unimpressive, i would still have to say that it IS impressive when compared to the lethargic feelings of acceleration offered by toyota. It’s an economy car afterall. I had a rented one for a while and it averaged over 30 mpg consistently.
edvard
I don’t think there’s anything such as the “Japanese propaganda machine” as Sam I am seems to be pointing out. In fact, it is culturally unacceptable for Japanese corporations to openly brag about their brands or berate others.
If anything, the reputation that Japanese car companies earned was in my opinion deserved. So I’ll freely admit that yes- people still have a bias against domestic cars. But this isn’t and never was due to Japanese companies deceiving the public. Indeed, Perception is the biggest issue GM has to deal with. In my mind, GM is doing a great job of making a rather serious comeback that will launch them into a new era where people like myself- a lifelong Toyota driver will want to buy their products.
But let’s not twist the truth. The reputation that companies like Toyota and Honda got was well-deserved and they should at least receive recognition for that.
motorman
charlie h, i have tried both reg and hi test in my C-5 corvette on the same trips and the hi test got about 2-3 MPG better. so you have to do the math to see which is a better deal. remember when you use reg the computer backs up the timing which hurts the power and MPG.
sheth
The corolla doesnt weigh 400lbs less than the cobalt. On top of that the 1.8L engine in the corolla offers performance proportional to the 2.2L in the cobalt. The GM engine is bigger and more powerful and as a result is somewhat less economical. If you want less power and the best MPG the corolla is a good choice. If you want reasonable 0-60 times then the cobalt may be a better by. The 7.9 sec time clocked by C&D is for a manual equipped car. Most corolla’s are autos so you can add a second to that time at least.
electromechanical
To Dave who wants to buy a Honda….. Sounds to me like you need to look at other domestic brands and not just form an opinion based on a Cobalt. You can get into a Ford Mustang for less than $20,000.
Brady Turley
First, its Camaro, no E. And I agree that even with the little power the 5.0 made, it didn’t feel all that slow. Sister had an 85 with the 305/700r4. We knocked down 20 mpg average, with peaks of 24 to 26.
Nick, I am an average guy too, but don’t think the cobalt is out of your price range. It depends on how you purchase. For me, leasing then buying was the cheaper option because I went with the ultra low lease plan of 10,000 miles a year. Im already way over it, but I know Im going to keep the vehicle at the end anyways. I dont make alot of money, but I can still afford the payments on my new chevy which are over 380 a month. Its just a matter of what else you will give up. You can have a new car, or you can spend that money on something else (besides essientals), up to you.
Finally, Electro, never bring up the Mustang. 23-26 mpg, eh, maybe you can call that economical, but not when its in an unpractical economy car. Also, the Mustang is nothing but a car for women. Thats what is was built for, seriously. It was made for secretaries. Dont believe me, look it up. And it has keep its market, most mustangs belong to women. Id rather see the guy in a civic than a mustang.
Kevin
WANNA KNOW SOMETHING TRUELY IMPRESSIVE? GM vs. Toyota!
Did you know the highway fuel economy of the luxury hyrbrid from Lexus, RX 400h two-mode hybrid, is 24 mpg. I bet you did not know know the GM’s non-hybrid fire-breathing 7.0 L smallblock V8 that makes 505 HP and launches the Corvette Z06 from 0-60 mph in 3.7 seconds ALSO GETS 24 MPG! HA! I know city mileage is a different story but this comparison still fully valid and blows my mind! I drive all high mileage, who would have thought GM’s super car matches Toyota’s luxury hybrid!
Charlie H
Bill, what “unwarranted GM bashing was that?” I remarked on the fuel economy. This is something one can look up. When I go the dealer, 0-60 times aren’t posted on the window sticker but MPG ratings are.
And I don’t go looking to “satisfy preconceived notions,” I go looking for a car that meets my needs.
Of course, if I’ve had excellent experience with a certain make of car, I’ll probably go looking there first for a car that meets my needs.
Sheth, I can’t remember the last time I raced a car, so I guess I favor better MPG, unless it comes with unacceptable performance.
If I take a car to the on-ramp and am not moving along at a satisfactor clip by the time I merge, that’s “unacceptable.” Beyond that, it’s fuel economy. I know for a fact that many of my neighbors evaluate cars pretty much the same way. They don’t do a lot of racing, either.
And you should look beyond power. The Corolla, per Edmunds, weighs 493 lbs less than the Cobalt. That’s a huge performance disadvantage. That mass must be dragged up that on-ramp.
If they can trim the weight, Chevy can offer a car with better fuel economy AND better performance. I’d like to see that. I might be willing to buy that.
Nick
Mr. Lancaster,
I believe you misquoted some stats, and may have misrepresented the comparison, in your reply. According to the Chevrolet website, the 2.2L base engine makes 148 hp and 152 lb-ft. of torque. The new 2009 Corolla (available now from my local dealers) has a 1.8L base engine that makes 132 hp and 128 lb-ft of torque.
This means the GM engine makes about 67.3 hp/L while the Toyota engine makes 73.3 hp/L. That’s a 6 hp/L advantage in favor of Toyota, which becomes not so insignificant when combined with the 4.5 MPG better average fuel economy from the Corolla. (Although to be fair, both cars offer an optional 2.4L engine where the GM produces about 4 hp/L more than the Toyota.)
I have to second the post about the feeling of a lack of quality in comparison to import small cars, too. But I am a big fan of GM, despite how this comment in particular may seem, and am hopeful that the Malibu’s execution is indicative of a much more positive direction for GM’s other cars in the (hopefully) very near future.
inline6
Nick,
If you’re really unimpressed by the Cobalt, try the Saturn Astra.
Yeah, it’s imported from Germany. But it gets really good reviews, has a smaller engine that gets about the same amount of power, and isn’t cheesy ’90s tuner-esque.
Plus, you can still buy GM by buying an Astra.
Tina
Dave, there are many options for you to buy GM within your price range. You should check out some other GM products that are hot these days. The Malibu, the G6, G5 - all cars that are very nice looking inside and out with decent fuel economy.
Joe
I have to say, that as an OWNER of a 2.2L Cobalt…the ‘get up and go’ is actually quite IMPRESSIVE. For a little 4-banger, that car has some spunk.
Now when you’re talking about fuel economy…that may be a different story - but still not by much.
I know many people, both online, and in person that prefer the Cobalt to the Corolla - minor differences in fuel economy notwithstanding.
I wasn’t sure what to expect when I bought my Cobalt…but as it came out just before the New GM started improving their interiors - I can forgive that particular downside to the car. But, and I’m not trying to be a fanboy here, every other feature about the car is PERFECT for it. I couldn’t ask for more or for less.
But if it doesn’t quite do it for you…then as others have suggested - GM has plenty mroe cars that do the same or better than an equvialent Toyota/Honda/ or other foreign automaker. Except the GM vehicle’s got two added bonuses:
A superior Warrantee
and you’d be supporting a US automaker…which in itself is a good feeling.
Ken Peirce
Nick
I bought a Saturn Astra XR3. Its a rockin’ fun euro-car. I once bought a new 2001 Celica GTS. I sold it 6 months later and took a big hit. Still, it was better than high payments for what turned out to be a “souless” car. The Astra has visceral feel to it that I lost when I sold my Alfa spider. If you try th eastra you’ll buy it.
Nick
Thanks Ken and everyone for your recommendations, they are very much appreciated!
Ken, I took your advice and checked out the Astra online. I really like the way it looks. If you don’t mind me asking, how is the power? I know its not a sports car, but is the 138 HP sufficient?
That car would be amazing with the Cobalt’s 173 HP motor! Does anybody know if GM plans on putting that motor in it? I would definitely be willing to pay a little extra for it.
Phydeaux
Well lets look at it this way:
According to Toyota.com website the 2009 Corolla 1.8L 5 speed manual has a curb weight of 2723 and the Cobalt has a curb weight 2747 for the sedan which means the lightest weight Corolla has a 24 lb advantage. But if we look at the work the engines must do ..
Corolla 1.8L 132 hp has a 20.6 lb / hp ratio and the 2.4L with 158 hp (2877 lbs) has a 18.2 lb / hp ratio.
The Cobalt sedan 2.2L @ 148 hp has a 18.6 lb / hp and the 2.4L @ 171 hp has a 16.1 lb. /hp ratio. Which means that the Toyota has a slight weight advantage but the engines have less power and have more weight to lug around which makes them slower.
Ed Dvis
My daughter has a G6 that she wants to trade because it says to use premium gas. She loves the car but not the premium fuel. Am I reading correctly that she can actually use regular gas for her daily commutes to school?
Douglas
Boy are some of you people gullable. Bob and the GM’ers prefer that.
You all despise the Colbalt and the other Delta-spawned clones (ION, Cobalt, G5, Pursuit) and then what>?
You buy the new improved Saturn Astra? “It’s Imported!”
The Astra is just another Delta clone from Opel in Germany….the same old Delta from back in ‘02.
A two-door ION.
How revolutionary.
Joe Gakenheimer
Unfortunately, I drove a Corolla once and except for the downpour I was driving in, I’d rather walk. The engine/transmission combination was terrible and felt as if the tranny was slipping, though it was only the engine being underpowered. Thus, if cars all became like the Corolla, I would walk.
Mike
I don’t think they’re really answering the question here. Yes, the Cobalt is less efficient than the class leaders beacuse it has a larger engine. But it only needs a larger engine because it is larger and heavier than those competitors. The Cobalt’s extra length and heft give no tangible payoff to the driver or passengers. The problem is with the engineering. GM need only look across the street for an example of how to build an efficient compact. The Ford Focus is lighter, roomier, and more efficient than the Cobalt. And we all know that no engineering magic or big investment was required.
Brady Turley
When are people going to realize the automotive industry is a global industry? Thats exactly what GM is and wants to be (not the GM emblem on every GM product). We can’t expect everything GM to be American Made, we can fight for it, but the Union screw us over on that by high cost of labor.
Andrew Moravec
Dear Mr. Lancaster,
Scrolling through Motor Trends website I caught an article about an Audi A3 with their TDI technology that gets 50mpg. I did some research and found that the A3 is the same size as our Saturn Astra. I know GM has the technology, what stops them from putting a diesel engine in more cars here in America. I know its simple to me sitting at home, but if we offered more diesels it seems like we could have the CAFE requirements beat today. I’ve seen the Opel ECO Speedster that is a diesel and it was getting 115 mpg on a 24 hour test with an average speed of 140 mph.
I know GM bought 50% of VM Motori from Roger Penske, does that hint at more diesels for GM vehicles? Does diesel fit one of the long term fuel goals of GM, maybe in Bio Fuels in addition to E85?
Medi O. Crity
Translation into English:
Well, if you don’t mind a Cobalt that performs significantly worse than a Corolla, rather than moderately worse than a Corolla, you can use regular.
Excuses, excuses, excuses.
Ray P
I love performance more than fuel economy, but I understand that the two must be melded together… What I would love to see is a hybrid with a manual transmission! Don’t ask me how that’d work (that’s the engineers’ job). I envision a hybrid assist in front of the trans before the clutch plate. That advancement would truly get me excited about the future of hybrids!
Lockleaf
The auto parts must be fuel efficient.Good article.
Justin
I own a 2008 Cobalt and I do have to say it is one of the worst cars made. I have been fighting with GM to uphold their end of the warranty. So far a month and a half or so old car has costed me $600 in car repairs. I learned that after purchasing my “new” car, after being forced into it by salesmen after they refused to allow me to leave with my old car, that this Cobalt had been leaking oil since I bought it. I kept finding large puddles underneath the car when parking and when I noticed after a cold day my Fluid was reading a temperature of over 250 deg. I called the local Chevy dealer. They find that there is a crack in my oil pan and they refuse to warranty it. Having my car for over 5 days causing me to be late for work and such as since it wasn’t warranty I was unable to have a rental which I had to pay for as well so almost $700 later my car was back. I called Customer Care for Chevy to complain to no luck. I called the dealership and talked to their GM who blew me off and told me I was having problems dealing with buyers remorse which was a lie because I was in the market for a new car immediately. Now I face the car shutting down driving at interstate speeds. Once almost got me killed as the car shut down driving through a busy construction area south of town on my way to my second job. I have continued to face the car’s bad gas milage and horrible other problems that continue to plague me and my bank account. Chevy dealers nearby refuse to look at the car due to its prior damage caused by the car being test driven by another customer as I was unaware of its issues. I guess mothers are right when my mother told me I should see whats leaking and when told it was just the AC being run in the car. I continue to face the shutdown issue and no answers. I asked GM if my warranty was void and was told no but I asked again why won’t Chevy inspect my car and fix the problems. The car has been a headache and is a huge POS. The car handles awful, gas milage is a laugh while I get what my Escape got in the City (18) and get 27 Highway driving long distances at 65-70mph. I am at a loss with this car. I continue to pay for repair costs as warranty is the issue I’m told is not covering them. The car has close to 2300 miles and is a month and a half old or so. GM needs to do something about this car now before me or other innocent people get hurt or worse. I have noticed on other car blogs the Cobalt has a history of shutting down while the engine is running and while driving and those people experienced the same awful customer experience I have from GM and its dealers who they say just carry their brand and are not affiliated with GM at all which is a laugh. I have been so angered by this whole issue I have vowed never to own or reccommend a GM product again.
Rick
Justin…
What you have experienced is precisely what’s wrong with GM - the poor inherent vehicle quality is simply made worse by their refusal to even acknowledge the fact.
Their market share is down again why? (Don’t quote the mpg issues pul-eeeeze)
Rum Doodle
~ “…simply made worse by their refusal to even acknowledge the fact.”
Exactly. GM could do wonders for their image if they just exercised some control over their dealer network and if somebody at GM HQ made them do their job.
GM should make available 24/7 direct access phone numbers at GM HQ where people can call with dealer complaints and be able to speak with someone who can put some pressure on the dealership service departments.