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At Saturn, we've always liked to think of ourselves as innovators.

Would that be you or Opel?

great work, jill! it will definitely enhance the social appeal of Saturn, which's a fantatic brand!

Could you guys make one for Chevy to?

Great idea. As this is corporate run and the first to join were among those of well established Saturn clubs nationwide, this is a great mixing ground and a perfect opportunity for corporate brass to meet and acknowledge the extent to which the Saturn enthusiast expands.

hey there...i have been a big "fan" of Saturn since the beginning...started off with some fairly unique cars.

But, is Saturn really that "innovative" and "unique" as it used to be?

There's certainly the great Outlook (but, it's essentially an Enclave or an Acadia)...

Saturn has the Sky...or is that a Pontiac Solstice?

The VUE? A chevy something or another?

Saturn USED TO BE "innovative"...now, it's just another division...cranking out "look alikes" of cloned-cars from other divisions.

just my thoughts...
RON
(whose dad worked for 30+ years at Pontiac Motor Division in Pontiac)

SATURN:
The New Oldsmobile

You can't fool me! Saturn is just another moniker for the now defunct Oldsmobile.

But in all seriousness, congratulations on being molded into the GM credit card earnings program which now apply to Saturn as well.

Does the 3 per cent rebate apply before or after the deal is consummated though? Inquiring minds want to know. And as Saturn is a "different kind of car company", we are already aware that the "no haggle, no hassle" approach may have to bend here a bit.

I don't know why everyone's attacking Saturn, who cares if there American Opels? Their quality is 1000X better than it was 5 years ago, the current designs are lightyears ahead, and (from what I've been told) it's one of the better dealer experiences, you can have. So as the old lady says, Where's the beef!?

Some of you people, need a hobby other than GM bashing.

Niz said: "I don't know why everyone's attacking Saturn, who cares if there American Opels? Their quality is 1000X better than it was 5 years ago, the current designs are lightyears ahead, and (from what I've been told) it's one of the better dealer experiences, you can have."

Niz,

In my opinion, GM made a smart move in finally bringing cars from ther Opel subsidiary over here -- the problem is that the Euro/US dollar exchange rate is now so out of whack the Opel/Saturns will be too expensive for Americans in terms of value for price.

Its also not obvious why GM thinks they must go through the chimera of rebadging Opels as Saturns.

Wouldn't it make sense to take advantage of their Euro-design and German engineering and sell and market them as such. It's not as though there is a great deal of nostalgia out there for the Saturn as a brand.

Were I a Saturn dealer, I'd rather have an Opel sign on the front of my building and sales lot. I could do a much better job of marketing Euro-designed and built Opels than I could Saturns.

Regards,

Gary Dikkers

here's a glowing review of the Saturn Astra from Marketwatch:
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/2008-saturn-astra----delightful/story.aspx?guid=%7BC0731A4A%2D97A7%2D434C%2DBF7D%2D9E71A8DCB65F%7D&dist=TNMostRead

Jill should fight for more marketing fund from GM. It's very important to make the American republic aware of the Saturn brand and the values it stands for.

BTW, GM's first quarter 2008 retail share: 21.3%
Toyota: 18.6%

1% means 1 assembly plant's output. So go ahead Gettelfinger, shut down more GM plants and GM will lose more market share! I have totally lost my respect for you. The UAW is a persistent pain in the ass. GM should move its production to Mexico, which pays only 1.57/hr.

And no doubt i will support Jill to become the next VP of Product Development replacing Bob Lutz. It's time for a woman to prove she can do a much better job than the men!

If you want Saturn to really succeed with my demographic (24-year-old males), then get rid of that stupid logo.

Then you need to stop rebadging the awful GM cars and give Saturn the autonomy it once enjoyed.

I know GM won't do this, so Saturn is doomed.

"...the problem is that the Euro/US dollar exchange rate is now so out of whack the Opel/Saturns will be too expensive for Americans in terms of value for price."

Hi Gary,
well, I agree the Euro/Dollar-exchange rate certainly is a problem, but on the other hand, Volkswagen is selling cars in the US, too, whereas a VW is nothing superior in comparison to an Opel. Did you see the first pictures of the Opel Insignia? Outstanding... Forget about the Passat! Maybe it actually had been a better move to completely replacing the Saturn-brand by the Opel-brand. But at the end, I don't think that's really decisive. Many potential Saturn-drivers in the US certainly are well aware of the German roots, both of the Astra and Aura. In the UK all Opel-models are also sold under an own brand, what finally doesn't hurt sales there, neither. GM now should go on and harmonize the portfolios of Opel and Saturn, as they did it with Opel and Vauxhall in Great Britain. To overcome this currency-issue, GM also could build future Opel-engineered models in the USA. By the way, VW reportedly will increase its production in your country for that reason, either. On the long run the European Opel-assembly-lines anyway will have enough business to serve the demand from Russia. As I did read, the Astra producing facility in Bochum already had to work overtime recently, since this vehicle is increasingly popular in Russia.

Gereon said: "In the UK all Opel-models are also sold under an own brand, what finally doesn't hurt sales there, neither. GM now should go on and harmonize the portfolios of Opel and Saturn, as they did it with Opel and Vauxhall in Great Britain."

Good point Gereon, thanks for the information. I looked up the Opel Insignia. Looks very nice:

It would be nice if GM brought it over -- as is, and called it an Opel. Interesting that it will be offered with a choice of seven (7) diesel and gasoline engines.

As always I find your posts informative and enjoy reading them.

Best,

Gary

Gary Said: the problem is that the Euro/US dollar exchange rate is now so out of whack the Opel/Saturns will be too expensive for Americans in terms of value for price.

I understand what your saying, but im not so sure I agree. If the Astra is any judge, then the value for price issue is out the window. You can get a reasonably equipped, quality built Astra, for the same price or less, than a domestically built Civic or Mazda. However, if the market does become even more unstable, with $5.00 gas prices around the bend, the thought of spending more a premium small car, is an idea that seems to be becoming more and more palatable to American consumers.

Gary Said: Were I a Saturn dealer, I'd rather have an Opel sign on the front of my building and sales lot. I could do a much better job of marketing Euro-designed and built Opels than I could Saturns.

Again, I have to respectfully disagree. You may know what Opel is all about, but the vast majority of Americans have no clue. Even with an unblemished reputation, it may take a decade or two, to build a customer base in this country. Saturn, for all of its downfalls does have a loyal
customer base. I am inclined to believe, that the US market would embrace a vehicle with a Saturn Badge, far more quickly then an Opel one.

Here's another good news:
Saturn posted a growth of 55 registrations per franchise up to 479, versus Hummer's plummet of 90 registrations per dealers to 285. Tied for first with Saturn was Germany's BMW with 55 more registrations than in 2006.
http://wot.motortrend.com/6242843/auto_news/saturn_up_hummer_down_in_sales_per_franchise/index.html

I'm sure the Saturn Insignia would be a great car! Jill should also fight for the two-tone interiors and the Saturn Corsa. Tell HQ to make all Saturn cars in Mexico, which pays 1.57/hr.

Hi Gary,
Hi Nitz,

also very interesting comments from you guys!

To Gary: I personally do believe, that the replacement for the current Aura will look similar or even identical like the Insignia. Even the front side of the (still) topical Opel Vectra and Saturn Aura demonstrate the strong ties between these two brands. Well, over here Diesel in the meanwhile is nearly the same expensive like gasoline. Further downside: Due to the strong demand for Diesel the prices for heating oil (which is basically the same fuel like Diesel) are also climbing. We are paying 4.80 $/Gallon, when we have to refill the tanks of our house!

To Nitz: I am not sure, whether Opel in the USA would have such a long way to go, until it would get embraced by US-customers. In my opinion your car-magazines are more informative than ours, consequently I don't think Opel is totally unknown in the US. At least this was my impression, as we visited Florida four weeks ago. For example, what's even a little embarrassing for German car-magazines: I was seeing the mentioned official pictures of the Opel Insignia first at TheCarConnection!

Chevrolet in Germany was also not really well-known, until GM decided to replace the Daewoo-Badge by the Bowtie. First I was sceptical about this step, but in the meanwhile it seemed to be the right move. Now, in March 2008, Chevrolet Deutschland already outsold Smart (!), is coming closer to Mitsubishi and is FAR AHEAD of Subaru, Alfa Romeo, Lancia and others. This I could read at the latest charts from the Kraftfahrtbundesamt, our official registration authority.

Well, at the end, that's all hypothesis. GM certainly won't replace Saturn by Opel. It's the product that counts.

As a former Saturn owner all
I can say is yuck.
One, the Vue is now too small for a family of 5. My wife and kids fit in the old one the new one styled is no longer an option.

Two, I like US engineers thank you very much. We have the best and they made Saturn a Brand Name.
Its sad to see the GM concept is to take everything that created the brand out and put in a cheap (oops Euro issues) knock off.
I own GM cars have had over 5 Buicks in my life time a Potiac and Saturn. I was looking at the Vue but with the HORRIBLE gas mileage and crap hybrid job I wont be visiting a Saturn dealer any time soon.

It looks like I am going to be going Ford or Toyota.
Ford Escape is looking pretty good. Gas mileage is better.

I have a Chevy Van and its been OK but by no means has it been great.
Rubber seal falls off the door just about every time I open and the dealer experience was aweful.

Because of the Opel rebranding and the bad Vue design, my family of 5 wont fit in it I wont be going Saturn until they have figured out its not just the marketing.. If it was just marketing then SUV Sales would still be UP.. OOPS GM
goofed on that one.

I dont know what GM is thinking. German Engineering American marketing. ??
DOH!

Bob T,

you are overlooking a nearly 20 HP-advantage for the Vue in comparison to the Ford Escape! Considering this, the 4 mpg-advantage (average) in fuel-efficiency for the Ford doesn't impress me much. Looked it up at fueleconomy.gov. Of course you could also go for a Toyota. Let's know later, how many recall-notifications you've got. A friend of us bought a Toyota Corolla Verso D-Cat (Diesel). The supposedly great fuel-efficiency of this car doesn't have anything to do with daily driving.

Well, I do respect your opinion regarding the Vue (Opel Antara, respectively), nevertheless you disagree with nearly any car-journalist or other people, who are in the car-business.

Gereon, your intelligent and well informed points are much appreciated.

What would you say is the overall image of GM Europe right now?

Hi Nitz,

thank you very much for the compliments and your appreciation.

In Europe the image is more focused on the brands in particular, than on the corporate structures behind these. Meaning, I don't think every German Opel-driver is well aware of the fact, that (s)he is owning a GM-product. As far as the image is concerned, I think Opel is on track to rebuild its reputation, which took some damage in the 90's, due to temporary quality issues (i.e. bad press) and a certain lack of truly exciting models. The new Corsa just gained the number 1-spot at the German sales charts in its segment and also the Meriva and Astra are still selling well. Chevrolet is showing strong growth, nearly all over Europe, but still has to brush up its image. In Germany it's still regarded as an entry-level-brand ("former Daewoo"), what should be resolvable by offering also more US-Chevrolets, such as this gorgeous all-new Malibu, the Cobalt Coupe (SS!) and the new Camaro. One reason for Chevrolet's success in Germany is the availability of LPG-vehicles as OEM's. My wife owns an LPG-fueled Aveo (cheaper at the pump than a Prius). Cadillac also has to fight for a new perception, though the models are absolutely great in my opinion. Some people over here think Cadillacs looks like these huge black sedan from mid-70's movies, getting just 10 mpg or worse. So far there's too little promotion (no TV-spots or newspaper-ads!) on this brand. Well, some people (like me) know about the all-new CTS, which I'd love to own, but it's still clearly a minority so far. Saab certainly doesn't have a bad image, it's more regarded as a typical brand for individualists. I believe that's reason for the relatively modest sales figures.

However, GM mainly has to work on the promotion and perception-side. The products are much better than their image. My next car definitely will be a GM-car from the US again. I'm currently owning a 2001 Alero (also LPG-fueled).

Bob T,
>you are overlooking a nearly >20 HP-advantage for the Vue >in comparison to the Ford >Escape!
Interesting reply.
OK I'll bite what am I towing a boat? Where do I need 20hp more? I have a family of five. Am I racing the car running on 2 wheels or something?
With gas at almost $4 a gallon fuel economy is job 1 and the sloppy 4 or 6 that eats gas doesnt help me in the least.
And an expensive small gain
hybrid version isnt worth spit.

>Of course you could also go >for a Toyota.
>Let's know later, how many >recall-notifications you've >got.

This is a silly statement.
GM doesnt recall enough. Saturn's arent perfect and the reason I got rid of mine is the old engine burned oil,
which when you search on the net was, and is, common for Saturn engines.
My Pontiac didnt run right from the start and was brought back to the dealer several times because they had a short in the wiring they could not find until the 5th time I brought it back.
The short caused the fuel pump to run when the car wasnt on.

I had to rent cars to get to work and I just bought a new car.

One of my Buicks (which ended up running almost 200,000 miles and is probably still going) wouldnt start and was towed within the first month I had it. And that had to go back more than once to get fixed.

These are GM cars I have owned. So if you are comparing that history to others I would not throw stones.
I know that things are not perfect and cars with all the air pollution stuff are complex so I give everyone a little latitude. I still love Buicks for the comfort and size (though I noticed thats going away)

>you disagree with nearly any
>car-journalist or other
>people, who are in the
>car-business.
I could care less what others need I have a family of five.
So if you want to be crammed into a car to look cool go ahead. I will enjoy watching you getting out and looking like the clowns in the circus.

Gereon, The Vue's going to need that 20 extra hp; it weighs a great deal more than the Escape.

Bob T.,

first of all, nobody at this blog gives "silly statements", not you, but also not me or anybody else. We simply may disagree and can do that in a polite way though.

My remark regarding the recalls of Toyota simply is based on the FACT, that just in Germany Toyota had to release 10 recalls alone in 2006! Even Mr. Watanabe himself admitted the existence of rising quality-issues! If you put it that way, like you do, EVERY car-company had to release recalls daily. Nearly EVERY car shows up certain design-weaknesses after a certain time! At my father's Opel Rekord (still own it after 31 years and 285000 miles) the water-pump and the magnetic switch for the starter proved as a little delicate, at Volkswagen the door-locks and power-windows created trouble for years and the Toyota Prius already showed corrosion at the rocker panel, found at a car-magazine's examination here. My uncle's Mercedes E-Class permanently had malfunctions within the electrical system. And - oh yes - BMW's of the 70s and 80s also burned oil! At the previous Renault Clio the exhaust-system does rust away prematurely. The list could be continued...

Just one annotation to the Vue: I already was sitting in an Opel Antara, which is the nearly identical vehicle. I am 6.25 ft tall and had plenty of room in this car, as well on the drivers' seat as on the back seat. So I really wonder...

Of course you may not need the additional 20 HP of the Vue vs. the Escape. Nevertheless, in my opinion it makes no sense to comparing vehicles' fuel-efficiency with different power and weight, the same way, as it would be senseless to compare the consumption of a MD80 and a Boeing 767.

But it would make a great deal of sense to compare the power, weight, and fuel consumption of an MD-80 and a B-767 if they carry the same amount of passengers and cargo.

The base Vue and Escape both hold 5 people, tow the same and the Escape has a bit more cargo room.

Comparisons of weight, power, power-to-weight ratio and fuel economy make perfect sense.

Charlie,

the Escape, after all, is 5.4 inches shorter than the Vue and has a 3.5 inches shorter wheelbase. When I am comparing the interior dimensions, I really wonder, how Bob could come to the conclusion, that he'll have more room for his family in an Escape than in a Vue. Weight is also caused by safety- and comfort-features. Did you also consider this?

Charlie: "The base Vue and Escape both..., tow the same..."

That's not true. The towing capacity is 1500 lbs for the Vue, vs. 1000 lbs for the Escape. In addition the Escape has no stability control, what is regarded as major disadvantage in safety, at least over here in Europe, whereas the Escape's sticker price is even more than 1.000$ higher than for the Vue. Not to forget the 4-star crash-test rating for the Vue vs. 3 stars for the Escape (driver-side). I'd recommend the side-by-side comparison at Edmunds.