GM’s “Other” Plug-In: The Saturn Vue
Larry Nitz
Executive Director, Hybrid Powertrain Engineering
With all of the excitement created by Bob Lutz’s first drive of the Chevrolet Volt test mule vehicle recently, some may have forgotten GM has another plug-in vehicle that is approved for production and progressing through early program development stages.
As I revealed to the audience today at the Plug-in 2008 Conference in San Jose, CA, we currently are testing 11 Saturn Vue plug-in hybrid-electric vehicles (PHEV) at the GM proving grounds in Michigan and Arizona. In fact, we brought one with us to San Jose.
We initially started testing with two early development vehicles using nickel-metal hydride battery technology. But now we’re using lithium-ion batteries. We’ve done extensive battery thermal management work in the lab and on the road, and plug-in charge integration is fully operational and undergoing refinement.
The Vue Plug-in Hybrid is expected to be one of the first commercially availably plug-in hybrids produced by a major automaker. So in many ways, we’re pioneers.
However, we do have an advantage over others working to develop a plug-in hybrid.
The Vue Plug-in uses a modified version of the GM Two-mode Hybrid system, which was introduced in transit buses in 2003. As you may know, we scaled down the Two-mode Hybrid system for use in passenger vehicles, and began offering the fuel-saving technology in our 2008 Chevrolet Tahoe and GMC Yukon – the world’s first full-size hybrid SUVs.
Later this year, we’ll begin offering the third iteration: a front-wheel-drive version in the new 2009 Vue 2 Mode hybrid, which will set the standard in the compact crossover segment for its combination of fuel economy and performance.
So a majority of the Two-mode components that will be used in the Vue Plug-in Hybrid have been proven. They have undergone more than 800,000 miles of dynamometer testing (think of it as a treadmill for automobiles).
We clearly still have a lot of work to do before the Vue Plug-in is ready for production, but we continue to make progress. When the Vue Plug-in Hybrid arrives in a couple of years, we expect it to set the standard for its combination of fuel economy and performance. And that’s really what the Two-mode technology is all about – significantly improving efficiency while maintaining the capability our customers expect from an SUV or crossover. This is possible because the Two-mode system uses a powerful battery, gas engine and an all new hybrid transmission to move the vehicle.
The Saturn Vue Plug-in Hybrid compliments our efforts with the Chevy Volt, in providing a range of electrified solutions for customers… from gas friendly, to a variety of hybrids - including plug-ins - to the all-electric Volt. The Vue Plug-in Hybrid will hit a market segment of crossover owners with the promise of potentially doubling the fuel efficiency of any current SUV, which is how most of these customers use their vehicles every day. It’s an exciting time at GM, and we are working hard to expand our portfolio of electrified vehicles to give consumers an even broader range of fuel-efficient alternatives (as we approach the next decade).
Stay tuned.
- Posted in Cars & Trucks
Jim Mbongo
Congrats GM ! Just this question, are we going to see this application also in future cars such the 2010 Chevy Equinox, GMC Terrain, Caddy SRX and Saab 9-4?
From my point of wiew, this would make a lot senses and probably save a lot of money?
Tony
Why doesn’t Saab get a hybrid? Where’s the Bio-Power Saab for the US?
Saab and Saturn should be the eco-friendly cars… not Chevy (imo).
But I do like what you are doing in this area.
jg
What about a Buick or Cadillac version? There are many of us who will never buy a Saturn. Buick ranks # 1 in JD Power dependability. There are dealers everywhere. Where’s Saturn? Both Cadillac and Buick are core GM brands with great history. Gas prices are $4.00 yet neither brand has a hybrid. Curious.
I really think you are making a mistake by starving Buick. Sure, the ENclave is cool and beautiful, but what is there for us 30 somethings who WANT TO BUY AMERICAN, but can’t find a GM product that competes with the Audi A-4 and MB, and BMW. Buick and Caddy could. Neither offers a convertible with a backseat. Audi, MB, and BMW all do. Why? How hard would it be to make a Buick version of the Saab 9-3 convertible?
Why bother spending money on the Velite, Bengal, and Bel Air concepts when you have no intention of making those vehicles?
Build it and we will come…by the thousands.
Stan
I certainly hope we get more plug-ins, but GM’s efforts are few and I wonder if they aren’t just token while hoping gas prices drop so the can sell Hummer’s again. GM is so short sighted and was quick to jump on the gas guzzler bandwagon. Meanwhile we beg and beg for well designed small cars. I can’t understand the sloppiness of the model lineup. They are making great cars in Europe as is Ford. But we have been getting junk up until this point. Why not follow BMW, Audi, Toyota, etc and build a few iconic cars that are the same the world over. These cars are very much desired and no need for unique models in each country. I can’t help but think what a neglected but potentially cool brand Saab could be if they would just produce some new designs. It reminds me of the neglect of Saturn for decades.
I just can’t believe GM would ask the government for bail outs with such poor product management. They just need to make fewer but better designs and get out of Michigan - like toyota, honda, suburu, and vw.
We recently helped my mother get a 2006 Malibu and I think it was the closest to a euro spec being based on an Opel. The Malibu before that was low and squishy. Why did they not use the opel platform before to save money. I guess their pride caused them to develop a US only product even at lower quality. The current Malibu is great but too large. I guess the Cruze will take the place of the previous Malibu. As great as the 2006 Malibu is I compare it to my 2000 Jetta and the fabric and plastic are already deteriorating compared to the great shape of the VW. The drivers side vanity mirror flap is no longer latching. I took it to the Chevy dealership and he called the parts department and asked “how much are those things we have so much trouble with on the Malibus. They are a safety concern when the visor is down by blocking vision. GM will not replace it so I will get out some tape!
Gereon (Germany)
Since the Opel Antara is almost identical to the Saturn Vue, it for sure would make a lot of sense, also to offer the 2-mode-hybrid powertrain for the Opel Antara. This would make Opel unique among the volume-manufacturers in Europe. Not to forget: We are paying 9$/Gallon over here…
Gereon (Germany)
“As great as the 2006 Malibu is I compare it to my 2000 Jetta and the fabric and plastic are already deteriorating compared to the great shape of the VW.”
Hi Stan,
recently they have shown a comparison on German TV. A big car-magazine over here completely disassembled both, a Volkswagen Golf (Rabbit) and an Opel Astra. Both vehicles had 125000 miles on the odometer and had been driven by the editorial staff under similar conditions. Guess what… Whereas the Opel Astra’s interior nearly looked brandnew, the materials of the Golf had shown heavy wear, e.g. the surface of the door handles was peeling off and the knob on top of the shifter (showing the gears) already was missing for a while. Honestly spoken, the interior of the VW New Beetle, which a colleague of my wife is owning, also shows much more wear than the interior of my 2001 Olds Alero, whereas my car has more miles on it. In addition, the New Beetle had an increasing number of malfunctions regarding comfort-features in recent times. Well, I have no doubt, that your Jetta actually is in great shape inside. But according to my observations, Volkwagen’s interior-quality seems to have degenerated in the meanwhile. The JD Power-surveys do not contradict my impressions as well.
Stan
Hi Gereon,
I actually gave peeling rubber paint on my door handles inside. My cupholder malfunctioned long ago. No it is not perfect but just thevisual appearance of the dashboard plastic is much better than the Malibu. I won’t even mention the cloth seats of the Malibu which are some strange extremely matte burlap like cloth. I am sure that even the 2006 Malibu is no where near the quality of a German Opel derivative. And remember this is a big improvement over previous 2006 Malibu. What I describe is subtle like the difference in feel between an iPod nano and a plastic Creative Zen. Lost on many Americans and that must be GM’s target. The new Malibu seems much better - not sure if it is Opel derived - I think it was designed to beat the Camry in the US. I went to the VW dealership today to buy a $27 gas cap! I looked at the new GTI and was blown away by the interior quality.
usa1
Plug in for the Vue is great. I am still scratching my head however seeing large displacement engines powering the 2 mode hybrids. I suspect the VUE is so heavy that the V6 engine had to be used. I would think the I4 engine would save even more MPG if used with the 2 mode. Same goes for the 2 mode in the Tahoe. Why pick the 6 liter when the power is sufficient with the 4.8 V-8? The trend now is MPG not HP. People are buying hybrids for MPG not for pulling trailers or drag racing. Isn’t the electric motor also adding overall HP?
Charlie H
Super.
How much? Money, that is.
nasaman
The plug-in VUE design readily lends itself to an added-cost long-range EV-only version (approx 35 miles on battery alone) by use of a 16kWh Li-Ion battery like that in the Volt. I prepared a short dissertation explaining this earlier this year and hand-carried copies to Bob Lutz in NYC this March, as well as sent copies to Saturn’s General Manager (Jill Lajdziak), and several other GM people at decision-making levels. My fear is that, thanks to the Chevy Volt having become a “media darling”, nearly anyone thinking of buying a plug-in car will know it should achieve an EV-only range of about 40 miles (not 10!), and that this could severely impact plug-in VUE sales. If an added-cost version of the plug-in VUE with about a 35-mile EV-only range was offered as an option, this stigma should be largely removed.
Keith
I wouldn’t say that GM totally dropped the ball but they did drag their feet. European car companies have been making small cars for a long time due to the gas prices there. Having worked for GM for many years it seams to me that a over abundance of cash had been sunk into truck programs. The signs of higher gas prices have been clear for ten years now, They should of acted much quicker. I drive a 2005 VW jetta 4 cylinder turbo, 6 speed manual. I get 32mpg driving to work everyday. I get harassed almost daily by co-workers and friends about driving a foreign car. Trust me I would rather be driving a GM product. I am a third generation GM employee. They have put food on my table for my whole life. I challenge anyone to show me a car in GM’s catalog that has better styling, performance, price, durability, and MPG than my car. Trust me, that car doesn’t exist yet.VW has a diesel coming out soon that gets over 50 MPG. WHERE ARE YOU GM???? The volt is a nice concept, but who in this sprawled out state (Michigan) only drives 40 miles a day and doesn’t get stuck in traffic. No one that i know. The infrastructure that would be required to allow people to plug in their cars at work will never be available either. What about people that live in apartments, I cant picture cords leading out to the lot. SO, unless they are going to install solar panels in the roof to charge these batteries. I don’t agree that the PLUG’INS are the answer.
David
Stan,
Please provide an instance where GM asked for any kind of “bailout” from the government. BTW; how does a company stay in business not giving it’s customers what they want? If GM had said “no SUV’s for you” Toyota would have been happy to meet the needs of those customers with Sequoias, Tundras, Landcruisers, and Highlanders.
Furqan Memon
I wanted to know if the 2 mode hybrid technology would be available in the larger SUVs such as the Escalade ESV and EXT, and Suburban just to name a few. I have a large family and I was looking into buying either the ESV or Suburban but the fact that neither offered flex fuel compatibility or hybrid technology. I think that getting the hybrids for the larger SUVs would be a good move imo.
Steven
Keith wrote : “They (GM) have put food on my table for my whole life.” “I challenge anyone to show me a car in GM’s catalog that has better styling, performance, price, durability, and MPG than my car.”
I just looked up a 2005 VW Jetta to see what you were talking about Keith. I see nothing great about the vehicles styling. Maybe you should buy the new 2008 Malibu if you really want to buy a GM vehicle. The cost savings you get with a GM discount can buy you alot of gas if there is any mpg difference. But I’m sure you got a discount from VW as well since you work at GM. Notice I said “at” and not “for”. GM is looking to cut 20% salary head count, hopefully you’ll fall under that catagory. But don’t worry Keith, with the love fest you have for VW they’ll give you a job so you can continue to put food on your table to feed your family.
I am also a GM employee and love to drive my Cobalt that gets 32mpg. I know who signs my checks.
Auto Squad » Blog Archive » GM’s hybrid powertrain director gives PHEV update
[...] The Vue is expected to have about 10 miles of electric driving range on a full charge.[Source: GM Fastlane Blog] Read | Permalink | Email this | [...]
Stan
David,
They certainly had a right to make and sell popular products when big was in. The problem is it is another example of shortsightedness they have always exhibited. I think after the first 1973 oil crisis it took them until the early eighties to finally have the fleet a little smaller. After that they still never made great small cars while the Japanese were gaining ground. The nineties saw a creep up into larger cars and SUV’s until the ultimate decadence of creating Hummer Brand. I mean they could create a whole new brand to sell the ultimate in symbolic arrogance but ignore the cars for the most part. Maybe a little balance to hedge your bets would have been wise - again Toyota made SUV’s and small cars. They had pride and a can do attitude of meeting the whole spectrum for the masses. I think a lot of it has to do with profits so making great small cars in the US for the US does not offer as much payback. Now that GM is expanding into China and they have Opel I don’t see why those same small cars can’t be engineered from the start for all markets. The Beat won’t come here because it is not ‘US safe’ - well the little Smart is. Where’s the can do attitude.
Why is Buick not seeing more models to become the Lexus for GM?
Cadillac seems to be in a good place!
Saturn needs to be more unique and edgy like GM’s Scion.
Chevy needs the Cruize now!
Poor Little Saab just gets ignore like Saturn for decades - such potential there!
edvard
Gereon,
I agree with some of the observations of VW versus other brands. My Wife’s mom has a 2002 Jetta. I have to admit that the tactile fit and finish from a cosmetic perspective appears to be better than most Domestic and Japanese brand cars. But that’s about as far as it goes. Hers has also shown horrible wear and additionally, the car is mechanically and electrically unreliable. The interior lights continually malfunction, the brake lights burn out constantly, and the clutch has gone out twice, and these are not cheap. The one thing that VW does really well is sell products with perceptible quality by initially providing a product with good fit and finish. But the overall quality seems to be lacking from a long term perspective.
Rum Doodle
“The Vue Plug-in Hybrid is expected to be one of the first commercially availably plug-in hybrids produced by a major automaker. So in many ways, we’re pioneers.”
You had best hurry, and don’t stop to look over your shoulder. The others are close behind.
What is the expected range on battery alone on a plug-in charge before the ICE has to kick in and the car then operates as a two-mode hybrid?
Beaugrand®™©
Make that Vue plugin hybrid drivetrain an option on the new Camaro and I’ll become a believer.
Gereon (Germany)
“The new Malibu seems much better - not sure if it is Opel derived…”
Hi Stan,
to my knowledge the all-new Malibu is based on the same platform like the current Opel Vectra, but it’s not an Opel-derived vehicle. Whereas I have to say, the all-new Malibu and especially the Cadillac CTS look vastly better regarding the interior and the exterior as well (at least to my taste), than any Opel or other German vehicle so far. It’s really time for the introduction of the Opel Insignia, which will replace the slow-selling Vectra and Signum soon. In my opinion the Insignia is an unprecedented, enormously improved model for Opel, which effortlessly can compete with the world’s very finest sedans. I think it really could become a game-changer for Opel. Already the new Corsa was exceeding the expectations in sales and maybe the Insignia will repeat this success.
I agree with you, that the visual (and even) acoustic impression also is important. We call it “haptic” over here. Admittedly the interior of our friend’s brandnew VW Golf looks upscale and the fit-and-finish also is fine. But finally this didn’t help, as this car had a breakdown recently, just after a couple of months.
Gereon (Germany)
Hi Edvard,
thanks for your reply. I agree with you to 100 percent.
edvard
Gereon ,
Additionally, the other reason VW has the perceptible quality is because it’s a German brand car. I’m not sure what the situation is in Germany or Europe, but in the US, European cars are considered higher quality with better fit and finish. I’ve lived in the Southern US ( Tennessee) and now California. In upscale communities, European cars tend to sell fairly well versus in Tennessee where cars like GM and Ford sold in the majority. So in other words, there is a perception amongst the wealthy segments of the US that cars from GM or Ford are poor quality. So at least here, the national origin is as much of a selling point as anything, which is funny given that so many cars are made globally. Incidentally, VW is opening a large plant in Tennessee soon.
torque
Question for Mr. Lutz,
Since this is the most recent Saturn entry, I thought I’d post this here.
What are your thoughts about the responses on this forum regarding the Insignia/Aura and dealer situation?
http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f75/aura-not-insignia-clone-67103/index2.html
http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f70/gmi-exclusive-saturn-may-go-bpg-why-aura-insignia-67110/
Stan
Hi Gereon,
So do Germans view Opel as better than VW or is VW a beloved home brand like Chevy might have been in the 50′ and 60’s in the US? It’s a shame that VW is trouble prone even in Germany. Our Jetta’s are made in Mexico which does not sound as impressive as Germany. I hope they get their quality issues sorted out.
Alton
Styling is such a matter of personal taste that it is a waste of time and space for anyone to comment on it. I am not kidding. Beauty lies in the eye of the beholder. Please….. do not tell me what is good or bad styling. Maybe the odd looking GM SUV of a few years ago is one example that we might all agree on, but other than that don’t tell me what good styling is. I like Picasso’s later paintings. So there.
Edwin
MSNBC has shown a bais against American autos. MSNBC program Morning Joe discussed autos this morning. The program commentator was critical of the big three and failed to mention anything what is mentioned here. Its like she didn’t know any of it. Why wasn’t this mentioned by MSNBC. MSNBC commentators failed to mention GM’s 8 percent annual sales gains in cars. The whole program was like a commercial for Japanese cars. And the program host Joe acted completely uninformed.
Why doesn’t GM educated reporters. At the very least GM ads could mention the sales gain in cars and thank the consumers. The general public has no idea of GM’s success, and if they did know they would have more confidence. GM needs to speak up.
Gereon (Germany)
Hi Edvard,
Hi Stan,
Volkswagen still is regarded as a high-quality brand over here, holding a market-share in Germany comparable to GM’s in the USA. In my opinion the perception, which you correctly mentioned, had been created artificially by the media to a certain degree. Opel’s reputation was suffering in the 90’s, partly since actually certain quality-issues used to come up, but also due negative presentation by the media, whereas VW had similar problems. Opel’s of the 90’s have been featured by the press as vehicles with inferior rust-protection. An example was the 1991 Opel Astra. But, guess what… When you are standing behind a VW Golf (same age) at the traffic lights, you can see the very same rust bubbles at the hatch, which supposedly only would show up at the Astra. In my opinion, that’s just one example or evidence, that the media over here only had been focused on Opel’s problems, whereas they totally ignored serious quality issues at VW. As I do believe, the “game” with GM and Toyota is pretty similar in the US. However, in Germany VW still is an automotive icon, in contrast Opel still has to recover from its formerly bad reputation. After all, the latest models all have been successful. The Astra and especially the new Corsa are selling very well and the Opel Meriva (small van) turned out to be the German vehicle with the least technical flaws at the so-called TÜV-examinations. The TÜV (Technischer Überwachungs-Verein) is an authority, which you have to visit every two years, in order to get supervised the technical condition of your car. Only with their approval after a successful examination you are allowed to keep on moving your car in public.
Did you ever read the story “The Perception Gap”? I am not sure, whether I did read it online at the Detroit Free Press or the USA Today. This was really interesting. The bottom-line was, that US-Vehicles are much better than their reputation, whereas the Asian and European competition sometimes is a little overrated in the US. However, I will keep on buying a US-made GM-vehicle. My Olds Alero (2.4) is still fun to drive, it’s comfortable and reliable and with its LPG-system it’s as inexpensive at the pump like a Prius. At the moment, due to our gasoline-prices, the Chevy Volt might be on top of my shopping list. Have a nice weekend!
Mathew
I’m really glas GM is speeding threw the process of the plug-in cars. I think this will be a good idea, however one has to wonder, if you plug-in your car every night, fine, your saying a lot of gas, but isn’t your electric bill going to shoot up?!?!
John Bill
Why not put a thin film solar panel on the hood and roof of the vehicle [ hello... Toyota Prius... people ] or partner up with a solar cell company to offer a solar home charging system to go along with the Vue and the Volt and leapfrog the Japanese.
Andrew Lamb
Whilst I have had considerable success with Lithium Ion, I have moved over to Lithium Polymer both for my race cars and motor bike. Unfortunately we lost a car two years ago to a battery fire and have subsequently had to develop a monitoring and management system.
A possible cause of the fire was a manufacturing weakness as a result of the continuous feed joining of the internal connecting ribbon burning out during operation.
Have you accounted for open circuit failures in the battery management?
Keith
Steven,
I am not saying that my VW is my dream car but for what I was looking for in a car it was the BEST. You go ahead and love your cavalier, I am happy for you. I am glad that you chose to settle for a car than drive one you enjoy. As for the 2008 Malibu…. I love it. It is one giant leap in the right direction. It was just out of the price range and size I was shopping for. My family and I both want to thank-you for your wish for me to lose my job, THANK-YOU. I was just stating a opinion that GM needs to really play some catch-up in the small car area. The Cobalt (Cavalier) and the Aveo (geo metro) are not cutting it. It is people such as myself that question things and demand more that will help this company succeed. Not, narrow minded “YES-MEN” that think everything they touch turns to gold. I like everyone else in Michigan have a truck in my drive way that I cant afford to drive. And YES, it is a Chevy. I test drove thirty different small cars and I picked a VW. I wasn’t going to settle for a car that didn’t meet my terms. I do know who signs my pay check but it is consumers and customers of GM that pays my bills, without them none of us have a job. And guess what, they don’t settle either.
Fred
Well I love the idea of a plug in hybrid. But does it really have to be in a Saturn Vue? Why not something interesting like a CTS or Malibu. Or one of the Lambdas even.
Larry Nitz, GM VP Powertrain Development: Our other plugin doing well(Vue) | Plugin Wire
[...] Source: GM FastLane Blog [...]
David
Kieth,
The Cobalt is in no way a “Cavalier” and the Aveo is in no way a “Metro”. These are comments clearly coming from someone who has not looked at, sat in, or driven either of these vehicles. I sincerely hope you didn’t buy a Volkswagen when the data pretty much says any GM car is a superior product.
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2007130
Volkswagen = #5 from the bottom of the JDPower VDS for 2007.
I don’t even have any idea what to say to this:
“I do know who signs my pay check but it is consumers and customers of GM that pays my bills, without them none of us have a job. And guess what, they don’t settle either.”
You could be driving a Cobalt and getting better mileage, driving a better car, and being loyal to your co-workers who are 100% in the right for giving you a ration for being so disloyal.
Vicky
Baseball, Hotdogs,Apple pie, and Foreign parts.
Stan
I just noticed that GM is planning to bring a Retro mini to to the US. I’m glad but it is really looking more like a shrunken SUV. The Vive I think it is - is a fully modern car designed for functionality and aerodynamics. If we want to drive a mini car then we want to save gas and appear to do so. I don’t think a blocky shrunken SUV will give that image and actually take away some mpg due to the shape. I am sure GM could make it work. If they want to go retro at least make it a car like the actual Mini.
Phil
DO NOT PUBLISH THIS COMMENT.
I just read on autoblog a comment that GMAC had follwed suit with Chrysler Financial and SUSPENDED LEASING because of losses on residual values. I cannot stress clearly enough that if you want to supend
TRUCK RETAIL LEASING until you can get high-mileage engines into them, then that’s fine.
But CAR/CUV LEASING should make great money now that everyone wants higher mileage vheicles, thus pushing up residual values. Since many GM models have gotten an mpg boost for 2009, this relationship should be strengthened. I have also called for a specific FLEET MODEL TRIM LINE to be put in place on the big selling models TO ABSORB ALL THE RESIDUAL DAMAGE associated with fleet cars, thus freeing you to sell AS MANY AS YOU SEE FIT while getting INCREASED RESIDUALS for retail trim lines. This should be the perfect set of conditions for strong 24-month lease programs with limited incentivization required. This means you get those customers back in time to boost sales of ALL THE NEW ‘10 and ‘11 MODELS you will be introducing!
Therefore, I hope this was just a rumor because CERBERUS owns GMAC as well as Chrysler. Again, I understand if you suspend truck leasing. BUT BRING ALL OF YOUR POWER TO BEAR to stop any suspension of CAR and CUV leasing. It will DESTROY sales to customers with good credit who believe in having a new car every few years with no trade-in worries… Ford killed you in the 90s with it’s 24 month red carpet leases. Now kill them!!
DO NOT PUBLISH THIS COMMENT.
Mario
David,
I too work for GM, salary, and drive a VW. A 2004 Golf diesel. I usually average about 44 mpg hwy, and because I live so far from work its the only thing I can afford to drive. My girl friend drives a 2006 cobalt and usually only averages 29 mpg hwy. Also, I HAVE driven hers multiple times and can not stand it, its not nearly as sure footed or fun as the Golf, and the interior is sub par. I always think I’m going to cut my hands on the peeling chrome tape on the door handles, really sad for a car with 40,000 miles. It’s sad to think that she paid more for her Cobalt than I did for my Golf even with her GM discount. I wish GM made something for me, I really do, but they don’t.
David
Mario,
If you work for GM you know full well the challenges to diesel automobiles regarding emission regulation and the issues that VW has had in the 2008 model year with getting certification for their diesels. If you want to complain about GM not having diesels you need to take it up with your congressman. There’s really no business case for diesel cars in the US as long as Diesel is $4.75+ per gallon and there’s no way to make the vehicles meet NOx emissions without $5000 of content that the customer isn’t willing to pay for to go from 36mpg on the highway to 40mpg.
Just a quick comparison of 2008 models shows that the Cobalt is cheaper by hundreds of dollars than the Rabbit (replaces the Golf) at all model points. There’s no Rabbit diesel available for 2008 and the Cobalt gets far better mileage than the Rabbit. In addition; the Cobalt has a better warranty and is a larger car.
Cars wear over time and it’s not good that there’s chrome peeling off the door handles in the Cobalt but I’m sure that there’s significant wear that you aren’t telling us about on the VW as well…
edvard
I hate to say this, but I sort of have to agree with Mario in regards to the quality of the Cobalt. I rented a 2008 Cobalt as a rental car when I visited my Uncle and Aunt in Alabama. I know that rentals sometimes take a lot of abuse, but this car had less than 20,000 miles on it. Mine too also had peeling chrome on the handles. Additionally, the silver paint on the door trim, center console, and other areas was scratched badly. The paint was literally wearing off. I’ve never seen this in a car this new, or even an older one for that matter. The seats were severely worn, and the right speaker was totally blown. Again, I hate to be nasty, but this was my experience. I understand that the Cobalt is to be replaced. If so, hopefully the new one will be as good as the Malibu.
John
With over 15 years in the Quality field, the costs will impact the 2005 VW Jetta. Having a few friends who also owned them, they really were impresses by the colorful IP/interior lighting and tight steering. The award winning VW youthful/musical commercials also attracted them. When their warranty expired, they were out of those Jettas. Their repair cost were higher than the American brands. Also, Jettas have never been winners on styling, they have always been refered to at box shaped.
I put many miles on the variety of GM pool cars over the years. Try a Pontiac Vibe GT or a G8 if you want style and performance. The Malibu also have alot of performance under the hood.
Steven
Mario,
You need to read Gereon’s (Germany) blog comment dated July 23 2008 at 3:35. The main part of his comment was “the materials of the Golf had shown heavy wear, e.g. the surface of the door handles was peeling off and the knob on top of the shifter (showing the gears) already was missing for a while.”
Now you need to read the blog comment from your fellow GM peer ,Keith (who also drives a VW)dated July 28 2008 at 8:58am. He states “it is consumers and customers of GM that pays my bills, without them none of us have a job.”
THANK YOU Keith, you prove my point perfectly.
I am a GM engineer on full size truck platform. I drive a GM truck (158,000mi) not only because I need a truck but because I know how well the trucks are built. As stated before, my other vehicle is a 2008 Cobalt. It is a tight , fun, enjoyable car to drive with avg 32 mpg. There is no car that is so much more superior for the money by any auto company that would have me give up my money for their profits.
You and Keith not only didn’t support your own company but not even an American auto company.
I understand how the general public through our own (US) media and special interest groups can mislead , misinform and sometimes right out slander GM. There is no perfect vehicle out there on the roads. Every dealership has garage stalls for repairs. Most everything I read about any vehicle is subjective anyway.
Maybe you and Keith haven’t seen or understand the bumper sticker that reads;
” OUT OF A JOB YET? KEEP BUYING FOREIGN”
I AM GM
Mario
David I will agree that the Cobalt is a decent car, but to tell you the truth, interiors are huge for me, and I can’t stand the tacky, hard plastic, cheaply built, noisy interior of the cobalt, and I’ve never driven an SS or any of the higher end models, but the seats in my girf friends car are hard as rock (extremely uncomfortable on long trips). Lutz himself has said the Cobalt isn’t actually up to par and the the new Cruze will be better.
Steven, I bought the Golf a year old with 20,000 miles on it, so my purchase did not support VW, or negatively effect GM sales. Diesel was also cheaper back then, I just needed something to get me to work with out eating up my entire pay check. GM moves me around so much I just keep my house in the suburbs just north of Detroit, even though I work in Flint for the time being, I need something with amazing gas mileage. For your information I have a lease on a 2007 Sierra, great truck, but I can barely afford to drive it. I just use it to tow my boat and camper and for “home depot” jobs. I still support my company, we make the best trucks, but they won’t get me to work.
My Golf is a pretty reliable for having over 100,000 miles on it, I’ve had a few electrical issues. But the interior is holding up far better than the Cobalt and the engine never has an issue. Mabee I just got lucky? Also, I believe what Keith was saying is, if GM doesn’t even make good enough vehicles to fill its own employees needs, no wonder America is slowly, but surely abandoning our vehicles. We need to make class leading, or at least class competitive vehicles, otherwise why should Americans drive our products? If there is better cars out there, the consumers are going to buy them before they buy GM. I believe competition is good, but we have to actually compete!
Gereon (Germany)
Hi Edvard,
I have no doubt that you are always willing to submit balanced comments, however, I wouldn’t regard the experiences with a rental car as representative, since, as you correctly said, these cars never are treated like privately owned vehicles. After all, the Cobalt made it among “Consumers Most Wanted Vehicles 2007″ at edmunds.com and scored reasonably high at the consumer-reviews from the same magazine, featuring more than 300 comments (combined) from 2006 an 2007.
Keith
I, Unlike most, put myself though college working as a mechanic at a Chevy dealership. I am a ASE certified master mechanic and I tend to know a little more about perceived Quality VS real quality. The dealership that I worked in was owed by a family that had two “sister dealerships” next door. One of them sold VW and one of them Toyota. I as a mechanic had to put in time at all three. I am just stating what I have personally seen with my own eyes. JD power ranking are altered by the fact that foreign car owners THINK that their car should be held to a higher standard than most. Therefore they tend to bring their car in more for quality issues. Most the warranty issues in the GM shop were found by us (the technicians) and therefore not reported as customers complaints. I am not saying that one OEM had more than the other, just saying that I wouldn’t trust JD power. I am still a huge supporter of GM. When it comes to trucks, suv’s, vettes, and large car I do believe that there is nothing better on the road. AlI was saying, Steven, is that all of us “RICH” Americans have never had to worry about economy. While we were building Escalades and 3500’s to drive to store and back the rest of the world was building and perfecting small cars. I too have spent time in the truck group. You know as well as I that in the 90’s the truck group got whatever they wanted. There was an open checkbook. So i will say it again that I drive a foreign (VW) small car because I think it is the best bang for my buck. I have driven cobalt’s and Aveos. I have even driven the focus, fusion, and the neon. Domestic small cars just don’t compare. My jetta has real aluminum inserts in the dash, shifter, and door panels. The dash panel is soft-touch as well. These are things you just don’t see in a domestic “economy car”. I don’t have to worry about cutting my hand while opening my doors.
Plus, Steven,,,,,,
Your little bump sticker……
Tell me how many “DOMESTIC” cars are truly built on American soil. Does a car built in Mexico save American jobs?
Karen
We own a 2004 Chevy Cavalier, a 2006 Saturn Vue and a 1999 Chevy Blazer. I have watched the 2 neighbors across the street load their VW Bug and VW Jetta on a transport more than once each (the Bug 3 times). The Jetta is a 2006 and the Bug was practically new the first time it was hauled back to the dealer. Neither car would start. None of our cars have ever been hauled back to the dealer on a transport. I choose a car that starts every time over the nice interior. Of course it would be nice to have both…..
edvard
Hi again Gereon ,
I agree that a rental car is a poor choice to use for perception. This one appeared to have had coca-cola spilled all over the interior. I’m not totally writing the Cobalt off, but let’s just say that I wasn’t totally impressed either.
On the other hand, I just got back from a trip in New Mexico and drove a 2008 Pontiac Grand Am. This is sort of an old-fashioned, larger American style car. I’ve driven these before and I really like the cars because they’re comfortable, fast, and get decent fuel economy. Ours got over 30 MPG. But the styling for it looks dated, which for young consumers is a problem. On the other hand, the Malibu still looks nice to me. I would really like to rent one of these too to see what it is like.
Don’t get me wrong, GM has made some vast improvements and makes a few cars that I actually like quite a lot. But I grew up driving Toyotas, and as much as I hate to say this, I am somewhat hesitant to try another brand since none of my Toyotas have ever given me problems. Additionally, I work on all my cars, and compared to how some of the GM cars I’ve worked on, the mechanical layout of most Toyotas is very well considered in regards to how mechanics actually work, and for me, they’re almost a pleasure to work on.
So… Yes, as an American, I have to admit that I have some degree of patriotism towards US branded vehicles, and in many ways it makes me sad to see these companies have problems. I firmly believe that the quality gap has been closed. But there’s a huge battle of perception and history to overcome, and if GM, Ford, or Chrysler is going to succeed, they’re going to have to go overboard and bridge that perception with outstanding, breathtaking vehicles. They’re on the right track. But the bridge has yet to be gapped.
Bill
Larry Nitz,
I am pulling for you guys. There are a lot of folks like me out there who want to buy a real american high mileage good performing vehicle. I had heard that GM made a bad technology purchase to get with their first crop of semi-hybrids. Back in the day… Oldsmobile had the reputation as the division that mainly brought out the new technology at GM (Toronado, etc.). They are gone after a horrible series of marketing guy blunders. Saturn was founded as the new way to design, build, sell, & service cars. Although it has been pulled back a bit closer to mama GM, Saturn is seen by many as the last great hope for American automobile technology.
God bless you guys, we are waiting for your product.
Bill Hancock
John Holloway
I don’t car what country a car is made in, as long as it meets my needs and is affordable. So far, they have only been Japanese vehicles plain and simple. It doesn’t take a genius to read Consumer Reports or Edmunds and see what cars retain their resale value. mpg ratings are all public knowledge. The upper management of GM has had their heads where the sun doesn’t shine for so long, that they STILL are not responding to consumer needs or if they are, it is with glacial speed. It all started when Rick Wagonner crush the EV1. Now, a decade later, he delivers up the Volt. GEE…based on the fantastic reviews the EV1 was getting 10 years ago, I definitely would have bought one….AND Rick and GM could have scooped the Japanese and beat them to the punch. Instead, management must have spent too much time on the golf course or counting their stock options instead of doing BUSINESS the old fashioned American way, which is innovative and flexible to customer wants and needs. I’ve had it with the financial experts and CEOs who have set themselves up as experts. Remember, the success of your business will always rely on the consumer, just like the financial markets do. So, get in the game and make cars with insane mpg like you could have done years ago. Until then, I will continue to buy good cars no matter where they come from. For all of you who have worked long and hard for GM, it is not your fault. I think the top third of managment ought to lay themselves off and put the company in the hands of those who have a real stake in it’s success, and that is it’s innovators and workers.
Eric Planey
Mario -
Your comment about buying a used VW and thus not supporting VW is not entirely true. One, by buying it, you helped on residual values, something US makers are trying to move up on their cars (look at the fact that Chrysler wont lease their own cars these days). And 2, its a car thats on the street and parked for people to see. If you bought a GM car, that car would be out there for people to see. My neighborhood in Brooklyn had one Cobalt a year ago. Now I see at least 5 or 6. 4 months ago I saw my first Malibu. Now I see about 3 or 4, parked right next to Accords and Outbacks.
Bob, I wanted to bring a point up. I am seeing a few of these godawful looking Smart cars here in NY. The Times panned the thing, saying why bother when you can get a Honda Fit for the same money and with 4 seats, cargo room, and same mpg? Then yesterday I rec’d (thanks Ebay) a 1984 Pontiac sales brochure like I had when I was a car-dork kid. That was the first year of the Fiero. Alot of the Fiero section covered how the car technically was totally new…mid-engined, tight frame, etc. We all know that the infamous IronDuke 4-banger killed that car’s reputation, as the coolant was getting blocked traveling from the front to the back. Also that the first couple years that car had X-car underpinnings in some parts (88, the last year, is where the car had its act together). Anyways, while I know you have a Solstice coupe coming out next year, what about the idea of bringing back the commuter car concept?? I think alot of people would love to see a new ‘Fiero’ out there. Maybe the lil Chevys - Beat, Trax, and whatever, fill that void. But I have to imagine that in today’s market, a mid-engined, LIGHTWEIGHT, 2-seat commuter car do well. Give it a trunk like Fiero had. Give it the next gen ecotec engine the Cruze is getting. Put it on the same platform as the Trax and Beat. My wife (God bless her for putting up with my car nerdiness, even said how the Fiero in the brochure still looks clean and modern). I have to imagine you can dust off the mid-engined research work you did back then and modernize it pretty quickly.
Good luck..looking forward to the CNBC special on GM!!
Eric
gemsFamily
GM is wasting it’s efforts on the VUE! A 2-mode drive system does not meet our goals for a replacement for our 2005 VUE in 2010! The only thing that we would want in a large vehicle is the drive system that is in the Volt… all electric drive with an engine/generator for extended travel.
Until GM realizes this FACT, they are going to be very disappointed in both Volt sales and Hybrid VUE sales!
We are more likely to buy an all electric sadan that will go at least 100 miles per charge than the Volt when our 2002 SC2 is replaced in 2014.
Think about it, what vehicle would a family of 4 need for long trips, and what vehile would be most desirable for commuter duty?
We are looking for an all electric drive VAN like the Saturn Outlook in 2010 and we expect a small gas engine driving a generator for extended travel.
By 2014 we expect to see all electric cars with a battery range of at least 100 miles for commuter duty.
Genieve, Eric, Mariebeth & Stephanie (gemsFamily)
BobT
If you have not read AMP MotorWorks you better look them up.
They can take a Saturn Sky and make it totally electric for 25K.
It goes 150 miles per charge and 90mph. 0 to 60 in < 6 seconds.
You can check out the You Tube videos yourself.. This of course
makes you wonder WHAT GM is doing.
You also wonder how much of the modification is wasted in ripping
all the parts out?
This makes you ask the common question.
Why is GM so slow to market?
HECK they made the SKY.
I wont be subjective and make stuff up but it really makes you wonder.
Why not market a total electric that gets 150miles per charge.
Also, by the time the Volt is released and GM is waiting for customers
the after market electric versions of other cars will be out and the Volt may be
yesterdays news before it hits the showroom.
You read this stock holders? Whats the board telling you
while you lose more money?
Joe Galliani
The Vue is a half-assed plug in hybrid that I wouldn’t drive if you gave me one for free.
Everyone I know wants a plug-in that has at least a 30-40 mile all EV range before any gasoline is burned. For most of us, that will take care of our daily drive on all EV.
But your plug-in Vue, which I saw at Plug-In 2008 in San Jose isn’t a vehicle anyone wants - and no amount of lame GM marketing spin will change that. All you had to do was listen to the people on public night at that event to know that this weak attempt at plug-ins was a bomb with the target market.
GM should be using Professor Andy Franks drive train and his much more intelligent and desirable method of creating PHEVs. It far exceeds anything GM ever even talks about.
As for the Volt - it’s vaporware until GM walks the walk instead of just talking that same old untrustworthy Detroit car talk. Sneak photos and hype don’t mean squat. Especially when you’ve got a blowhard, 19th century brain like Bob Lutz as a key cast member of your carnival.