1,000,000 Miles And Counting
By Jamie Hresko
GM Vice President, Quality
Type “one million miles” into a Google search and you know what comes up? Honestly, one of the first things on the list are Wisconsin residents Peter Gilbert and Frank Orsenick reaching one million miles in a 1989 Saab 900 SPG and 1991 Chevrolet Silverado, respectively. Pretty amazing stuff. What’s more amazing is word is spreading around here, GM, that another customer is about to reach one million miles in his Chevy Express. Call me superstitious, or a huge baseball fan, but I don’t want to jinx anything, so I’ll wait to mention the actual name of this Milford, Michigan resident… I also know that this guy is associated with a group of about 10 Chevy Express or GMC Savana drivers who all have more than 500,000 miles on their vans.
Obviously, because I’m closely connected to the quality world, I know that GM quality is good and getting better. I know this because in 2006 and 2007, we experienced a 13 percent reduction in warranty repairs each of those two years, and we’re on track to reach a similar number in 2008. Additionally, we back up our products with the industry’s best transferable powertrain warranty, five years/100,000 miles.
Why should the numbers matter to you? It means more time behind the wheel of your car or truck. It means we build vehicles that last. It means the real gap is not between GM quality and that of our competitors, the real gap lies between perception and reality. Who knows, maybe someone reading this is about to make the one million-mile milestone. The numbers are necessary, they help up keep focused and drive real improvement. The numbers also help to verify what a guy like me is saying. However, the numbers don’t tell the stories. Tell me your story … and maybe we’ll be hearing from another one million mile driver soon.
- Posted in Cars & Trucks
Roger
Well Jamie, I am rapidly approaching 250,000 miles in my 2000 Saab 9-5. Today’s vehicles have much longer lives than their predecessors of a generation ago when 100K of use was considered extreme.
Mike
That’s great, i know i brag daily about my S-10 and its 400k miles on the original engine and trans. I bought the truck when I was sixteen (first vehicle) and now use it for work daily as an engineer 10 years later. It’s taken me from high school, college and into the work world. I’ve taken it on off-road trips in PA, skiing in Vermont and used it to haul countless loads of lumber and stone. I couldn’t have asked for more out of a truck, that truck has made me a loyal GM customer. Keep up the good work.
Euroclydon
C’mon Jamie. We all know that you, Mr. Lutz, Mr. Wagoner, and GM stockholders don’t really want people driving GM cars and trucks 1,000,000 miles or more. if you did, your warranties would be much, much better.
Putting 1,000,000 miles on any car says volumes more about the car’s owner and his or her ability to care for machinery, than it does for the company that built the car.
It’s also interesting that you claim credit for the durability of a 1989 Saab when GM had nothing to do with Saab when that car was built. If you are so positive about Saab, why did you just reduce the Saab’s warranty? GM announces reduction in 2009 Saab warranty
motorman
I wish GM well with their problems and as a GM owner since 1953 and as a 2008 corvette owner,I think GM made a big mistake when they dragged their feet on repairing the V-6 intake manifold gasket problems. We have been a GM family for years but my son paid to have 2 3400 engine repaired and after this he is now looking at new toyotas for his next car. I know GM has said they will covers these expenses now but it is too late for a lot of former GM owners.
Buick Diesel
One of my daily drivers is a 1983 Buick LeSabre with a 350 diesel. It has 257,000 miles on the origional engine & tranny. The tranny was rebuilt at 175,000 miles, and I rebuilt the engine myself at 215,000 miles. I have also taken the car on long trips.
My other daily driver is a 1999 LeSabre.
john noecker
Jamie,
When I was a Buick GMI student in Flint in1956-57 I worked with a man named Jim Hresko in Buick’s Service Bulletins writing office.
Tell me he was your Dad, and make my day.
John Noecker
chiefpontiac
I’ve never gone over 150,000 miles in a GM product yet, but not for trying and not becasue of any problems. IN fact it was always heartbreaking to let them go. If it were not for exciting new products like tthe G8 we might shoot for the next 50k on our 03 Grand Prix that just turned 100k, but still rides and drives and (almost) looks new.
Brady Turley
GM does make some long lasting products, but theres alot of bad with the good. I have some older GM vehicles (70’s) and I have some late model (07), but I think the late models have had more problems that the older. Just because GM had less warranty repairs doesn’t mean the problems don’t exist. It just means dealers are able talk their way out of repairing vehicles to consumers who don’t understand mechanics. I’ve had this happen to me on an 06 GM vehicle. They understood there was a problem, but wanted me to drive it until it broke, then they would be able to “fix” the problem. Needless to say I traded that puppy in and made it the dealerships problem.
On the bright side, there was a 95 GMC serria 1/2 ton at our local track. It had a few ticks over 300,000 miles on the original engine, tranny, and rearend (no rebuilds). He ran it all night trying to break the thing, but never succeeded.
These late model LS(LS1, LS2,ect) series motors are a great thing. Its never been so easy to assembly, disassemble, ect. Not to mention easy to make power. All while returning great MPGs (for a V-8). That kind of thinking needs to continue. Not sure if its the oil life monitors or the torque management keeping those motors alive, but there a lots of people out there with high mileage on LS motors. In a few years, I hope to be one of them. First year 22,000 miles, 0 problems (engine wise anyways)….
Nate
Jamie Hresko,
As much as I want to jump up and down in celebration of this news… I can’t…. it simply makes little difference to me. Sure a 13 percent drop in warranty claims is a big deal.. but how does that compare to ALL of your competitors? Also how does this correlate to the increase in fuel prices and the tendency for drivers to drive more conservatively?
Additionally GM’s power-train has always been decent (except their automatic transmissions). Every single car my family has owned with a 4T60, 4T65E or 700R4 has had transmission problems between 80K and 140K. I really don’t think thats anything to brag about. But how many of your customers ever intend on driving a car that long without trading it first?
In my case I have spend many hours of my leisure time rebuilding GM products. I don’t buy into all of what you have written above… I know better because I fix what other people hurry up and unload before they break. One of my favorite cars has over 230K on it. Its on its second manual transmission (which I have rebuilt from a junkyard unit) and on its third engine. The entire suspension and A/C has been replaced as well as 5 alternators. I’m not sure if thats something to brag about. If anything I can brag about my stubbornness to let the car die and the fact that I have been able to find parts. If anything the chassis and interior is falling apart.
If you want to do anything to improve GM cars… use more common under-skin interior parts. That way more aftermarket companies will carry them.
But really I don’t see what purpose making your products last longer serves, other then bragging rights and up front sales. Certainly if GM products last longer people won’t buy new ones as often.. AND if they don’t break you can’t sell parts… so wouldn’t that mean you are engineering yourselves out of business?
I’m not sure how to solve that one… though a good start is to remove the words “perceived customer initial quality” from Bob’s mouth. I nearly fell over when I heard him say perceived quality… what customer wants to hear GM say that perceived customer quality is up… What does that even mean? Does that mean you trick your customers into thinking the products are better then they are? I doubt it but it makes me wonder.
I hope GM continues to improve their overall vehicle design. I certainly look forward to buying a new -used GM to fix and drive. Or maybe I’ll spring for a brand new one.
Nate
David
I have driven the following GM cars to the following mileages.
1989 Pontiac Grand Prix (240,000)
1993 Pontiac Grand Prix (210,000)
1996 Chevrolet Cavalier Z24 (190,000)
2000 Chevrolet Implala (200,000)
I sold all of these vehicles in running condition and the subsequent owners all got between 50,000 and 100,000 additional miles - my uncle is still driving the 1993 GP with 300,000+ miles on it.
The Chevrolet Impala was the best car to date with only about $300 in repairs of non-maintenance nature over 200,000 miles. I had to actually search for something to take the vehicle in for before the warranty expired and as it turns out all I could find was a service bulletin for rear wheel well liners.
I currently have two GM vehicles that are driven daily. 2002 Oldsmobile Silhouette (115,000 miles)
and a 2006 Chevrolet Malibu (61,000 miles)
Overall; my experience with my vehicles is better than my friends who own Toyota and Honda vehicles. My best wife’s best friend just had a 1998 Camry rust out from underneath her to the point that the vehicle became unsafe to drive.
David
Euroclydon,
Did you miss this?
Audi, BMW and Volvo offer four-year, 50,000-mile warranties on their vehicles.
Sounds like GM is just positioning the Saab warranty in-line with the competition who also offer scheduled maintenance.
TH
Any vehicle can be made to run 1,000,000 miles with enough determination, even though it may not be cost effective to do so. See Theseus Paradox, popularly known as “George Washington’s axe.”
edvard
I remember back when I was a kid, we had an 85′ Camry. It racked up 150,000 miles and we were simply flabbergasted that it ran that long. 150k back then was amazing. These days, if my cars don’t go at least 250k, I’m not horribly impressed.
I also agree with Euroclydon that the longevity of a vehicle has a lot to do with the care the owner gives it. I religiously change the oil at 3,000 miles, the radiator fluid at 50,000, the manual tranny oil at 60,000, and the plugs every 45,000. But I also have friends who know next to nothing when it comes to maintaining their cars. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve peeked under the hood of a friend’s car to find that the dipstick was almost dry or that the overflow tank of the radiator was empty.
In regards to GM products I know with high mileage, a friend of mine who works at a bus repair shop has a 91′ Chevy Silverado with 330,000 miles, and the valve covers have never been taken off. Still another guy who works as the janitor at my Dad’s Church has a 95′ Silverado with 390k.
Weelbaro
1. Saab was not owned by GM when said vehicle rolled of the assembly line.
2. GM just reduced Saab’s warranty mileage from 100K to 50K.
Sounds like GM’s not as convinced about Saab reliability as this article would leave you believe.
Just another example of how far out of touch GM Brass really is. Enjoy your government bailout boys. God Bless America!
Euroclydon
~ “Did you miss this? Audi, BMW and Volvo offer four-year, 50,000-mile warranties on their vehicles.”
David,
No, I didn’t miss that. All I can do is repeat that if GM really had confidence in the quality, reliability, and durability of their Saab cars, they wouldn’t have reduced the warranty. If they were really proud of and had confidence in what they were building, they would demonstrate that by increasing the warranty — not reducing it..
After all, if they are building a quality, durable car, there should be very little warranty work GM would have to pay for, right?
Dave
Somone recently reported news of a million mile 1970 Camaro as well.
http://jalopnik.com/398478/woman-drives-1970-camaro-over-one-million-miles-thumbs-nose-at-volvo
belair
I have a `93 1500 stepside with 330,000 miles and counting on the original 5.0L. I bought it last winter off of my neighbor and the truck had been parked for a year (he had been in an accident and it needed some work) I was so excited when I went to turn the key for the first time. The engine turned over with little hesitation. I got it back on the road in March and I have yet to have any problems with the engine 5,000 miles later. My friends ask why I still have the 5.0L and I just tell them I want to see how far this baby will go!
Gereon (Germany)
Did anybody read the latest JD Power Dependability Study yet? Cadillac and Buick again have ranked well above the industry-average. Some critics may say, the other GM-Brands just performed mediocre, but, not to forget, this survey was about 2005 models, not reflecting GM’s latest clearly improved models, such as the Chevy Malibu, which was the winner of JD Power’s IQS.
See also: http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080807/AUTO01/808070477/1148
Regarding the so-called German premium-brands, there obviously could be said, that only the price is premium in most cases. Especially Volkswagen’s performance continues to be horrible, so I really wonder about the ongoing reputation for quality of this brand and its still improving sales. That’s a further indicator for the importance of perception. That’s the main target for GM in the meanwhile.
Edwin
My 1993 Camaro 3.4 V-6 just turned 300,000 miles. It has the original engine, transmission, exhaust (original tail pipes and muffler), and suspension. It runs great and gets 30 mpg highway, thanks to a tune up at the dealer. Its a clean, efficient car. Everything inside is original, factory, and it looks great. Everything works. The original windshield wiper motor is original, the radiator is original. The timing chain is original, and has never needed adjustment or replacement. The anti-lock brakes, rotors and drums are original, and still in perform wonderfully. The dash board electronics are original and perform wonderfully.
Everyone in my family owns mostly GM vehicles. My uncle has purchased 36 new GM vehicles, he has the record. Many of our friends and neighbors have switched to GM vehicles when they see the quality. They are impressed with our Cadillac DTS, Firebird, Camaro, and Aurora. The DTS V-8 gets 25 mpg highway and averages around 22 mpg. My neighbors 2007 Corvette V-8 convertable gets 34 mpg highway.
Joe D, Cleveland OH
Jamie,
Isn’t it a bit smug to boast about the reliability of that Saab when it was engineered, designed, and assembled when a Saab still had a “Engineered and assembled by Svenska Aeroplan Aktiebolaget in Trollhättan, Sweden” sticker in the door jamb? That car rolled off the line a good year before GM bought 50% of the company.
Seriously, you want people to believe in GM’s commitment to quality, don’t try to sell us on it with half truths that we see right through - just make good product.
You sound like you’re selling snake oil when you say that.
Haria
I just sold my 96 Pontiac GrandPrix with 220,000 miles. I sold the vehilce in great running condition. I maintained it- regular LOF’s, Brakes, Tires, Trans, Coolant- simple as that.
I have a 2005 GMC Canyon (44,000 miles) and 2002 Chevrolet Avalanche (120,000 miles)- great trucks- just simple maintenance.
Robert Harris
Hello Jamie,
As a 31 yr GM employee, and one of your workers from your Orion Days, I just want to say that I hope your right about the quality. I recently had to trade in my 04 Cavalier, because the engine blew at 108,000 miles. That was by far one of the worst cars I ever owned. My first clue should have been 8 hours after I bought the car and had to have it towed to the dealer for a new starter. Or when the seat broke, or when the trunk filled up with water, or when it jumped time and cost me 1500.00 or when the engine finally gave out. But I bit the bullet and went back to my trusty Chevrolet dealer. I purchased a 2008 Impala. So far I love the car. I just hope the fact that one month after I got it and had to take it in for a throttle body assembly replacement it is not a sign of things to come. But I am going to keep my fingers crossed and hope that your right. And especially after I talked my Ex-Wife into buying a new Impala two days later. I want to believe that we are putting out quality products.
Loren
Last week I passed 200,000 miles on my 1999 Chevy Venture. My ‘91 Camaro has over 250,000 miles. My ‘98 Camaro is as good as new with 125,000 miles. There was a Full size Chevy Van that Toledo Transmission used that had over 650,000 miles on it when we asked for the transmission so we could look at it real good. I say it is not only the care of the vehicle by the owner but also the hard work we do everyday to make GM vehicles great with the World’s Best Powertrains!
derek
i had a 95 cavalier for my first car, some things broke on it, but that was my fault. traded that in and i got my wife a 2008 nissan versa, within one month something went out. i took her 95 ford taurus just about everything went out on it. and now i have a 2006 impala, i love it, and will be a chevy owner for life!
HybridsOnly
Several people have put over 200,000 miles on their Honda Insights. One of them has maintained a lifetime economy average of 67 mpg over 208,000 miles. Not too bad, considering that there are only about 18,000 of them out there, and they were first available here in 2000.
Thomas
I may not be a member of the “high miles club” yet, but I can definitely vouch for your current product quality! I have owned a 2005 Chevrolet Malibu Maxx from brand new, and currently have 83,000 trouble free miles on it. Just as smooth at idle, and equally (if not better) outstanding gas mileage to when it was new — I can get upwards of 34MPG on the highway out of the V-6!
chevonly
I appologize for the Honda I bought in the 80s it was a miserable excuse for a car, I had to have it towed on three different occasions. The mistake will never be repeated again. My 78 Chev van has 230k on the odometer and still runs great. My 2003 Cavalier has 57k and no warranty repairs ever of course I change the oil every 3k. The Honda had the same oil change schedule etc. and everything broke on it I WILL NEVER BUY ANOTHER CAR MADE IN JAPAN PERIOD IM GETTING TO OLD TO PUSH A CAR TWO BLOCKS LIKE I DID ON MY HONDA BUT IT WAS GREAT EXERCISE AND TALK ABOUT THE MILEAGE. My Chev van had some problems but it always got me home and it has never had to be towed.
Rum Doodle
Jamie,
Driving a car for a million+ miles says a heck of a lot more about the person who owned the car than it does the company that built it.
What it says is that the car was owned by a conscientious person with mechanical skill who understands and takes care of machinery; someone who drives skillfully, carefully, and reasonably; and someone that believes in preventive maintenance.
That kind of person is just as likely to drive a million+ miles in a Chrysler, Ford, Daimler, Pugeot, or BMW as he or she is in a GM product. (I will readily stipulate that not even the best owner could have driven a Yugo a million+ miles.)
Brag on it if you want, but the real credit belongs with the car owners.
Charlie H
Blog entries like this are pointless. When you’ve won over Consumer Reports, you may win me back, too.
Gary Dikkers
Mr Hresko,
Just for kicks, wouldn’t it be interesting to know how many Mercedes diesels there are in the world with more than 1,000,000 miles (or 1,600,000 km) on them? In Africa, southern Asia, South America, and other parts of the world, those old M-B diesels seem to run forever–and Daimler still provides worldwide support for them.
Since your on this kick touting the durability of GM cars, why not do a piece on those old 1950s-era GM Chevrolets, Pontiacs, and Buicks still pounding the streets of Cuba? At least GM built those cars, unlike that 1989 Svenska Aeroplan Aktiebolaget-built, non-GM SAAB 900 SPG you are so proud of.
V/R
Gary Dikkers
Nate
David,
You said:
“The Chevrolet Impala was the best car to date with only about $300 in repairs of non-maintenance nature over 200,000 miles. ”
What do you mean by non-maintenance nature?
Surely everything on the car is a maintenance item at some point. And this is exactly the point I and I’m sure many others argue. How many total dollars in parts did you have to put in from the time you bought the car until you sold it.
In my experience GMs have quite a few problems.. but I count every penny I have to spend outside of warranty. Because I track the total cost of my car (well I have just started to actually).
Nate
Edwin
Rum Doodle,
You say, “the real credit belongs with the car owners.”
I’ve put 300,000 miles on a 1993 Camaro 3.4L V-6. Its had some pretty rough driving and its runs great. The car is unbelievably durable.
I’m not a mechanic, and I don’t work on my car. The factory parts have performed far above expectations and are still performing well.
The credit goes to the GM vehicle for being a fantastic car.
Charlie H,
I know many people with new cars. Not one of them has ever received a Consumer Reports survey. I’ve asked everyone I know, if they know anyone who has ever filled out a Consumer Reports survey. I’ve never even heard of a single person doing so.
And who audits Consumer Reports? Aren’t their suvey’s ‘reader based’. If the percent response to a survey is low, then its statistically invalid.
What about other surveys that have rated Hyundai’s higher quality than Mercedes? Are they credible?
Check out petitiononline.com/acura sometime and see the thousands of signatures by Acura/Honda owners who have reported their transmissions problems.
Recall the news reports about Toyota owners claiming oil sludge (oil gelling) problems with riuned engines? One day, I walked into get a hair cut. The owner of the Salon was noticably upset, the engine in her Toyota Camry had just froze up. It was just out of warranty or so she thought. I told her to ask her mechanic if it was oil sludge, and sure enough it was. On the internet, I printed her a copy of the settlement from the Toyota oil sludge case. She made a contact and was able to get reimbursed for a new engine. But she didn’t know the case existed. How many others paid for new engines without knowing?
Some of the media covers for the foreign competition. Its funny to read the auto media who kept trying to figure out why Infiniti M just wouldn’t sell. They kept making excuses for it.
Pontiac beat the foreign competition, even so called luxury cars from the foreign compeition, in Pontiac Challenge broadcast on TV. Were the auto print media watching? Pontiac won the challenge, the actual times were from certified drivers. The funny thing is that the auto print media tests times were off from the certified driver times so much so, that the auto print media appeared to have faked their numbers.
The auto print media tests and tests (or so they say), in order to find just one little thing for which they can attempt to criticize an American vehicle. The auto media is just desperate for a foreign branded model to succeed. Their editorial tactics are so obvious.
Then there was Consumer Reports test of a Flex Fuel Tahoo broadcast on the news for fuel economy. The driver drove at excessive speeds around sharp curves, unrealistic, then the report attempted to make claims about the fuel economy achieved.
Who falls for media bias?
Thankfully, those who can think for themselves buy American vehicles.
Stew
Buick Diesel:
Bragging that - “One of my daily drivers is a 1983 Buick LeSabre with a 350 diesel. It has 257,000 miles on the origional engine & tranny. The tranny was rebuilt at 175,000 miles, and I rebuilt the engine myself at 215,000 miles.” - is not really much to brag about.
When someone boasts about original engines or transmissions, that generally means not having been rebuilt. You could put a million miles on anything if you were rebuilding it every 200,000 miles.
GM Salesman
Charlie H,
Perhaps you should broaden your scope of reading to other places such as JD Powers and Associates. Their most recent study on long term reliability and dependabilty placed the Chevrolet Monte Carlo and the Buick Century first in their respective categories. While I will admit that there are a number of foreign (specifcally asian) automakers also on the list, you should examine the fact that Toyota has very quitely in the last few years recalled more cars and trucks for safety issues than any other manufacturer including General Motors.
85CieraHoliday
Anytime some one makes a comment to be about GM quality I just show them my car, its a 1988 Oldsmobile Delta 88 Royale 4 dr with just under 337,000 miles on the original engine. If more people knew about the improvements GM has made in quality then new customer might appear. Why not do a commercial series about owners with high mileage GM cars, I’d be game for that!
Rum Doodle
Edwin said: “I’ve put 300,000 miles on a 1993 Camaro 3.4L V-6. Its had some pretty rough driving and its runs great. The car is unbelievably durable.”
Edwin,
You’re not even one-third of the way to a million miles. If you continue to drive it rough and don’t take care of it, it’s not going to make a million, no matter who built it.
Brady Turley
Stew
Now you know that isn’t true. Some engines can only be sleeved once.
Charlie H
I have 4 Toyotas (including one with the famed “sludgemaster” engine) and zero problems. What’s my motivation to try something else?
There is no “misperception” in the market. It is up to GM to put winning cars on the road and make people happy. Every owner who runs into a problem and is denied a warranty claim (and mention of that sort of treatment continues in forums like these) is a story that every Toyota and Honda owner treats as a cautionary tale.
CR may be giving the new Malibu, etc, lots of love today, as a new car, but I’ll be checking CR in 4 or 5 years to see if customers are happy, LONG TERM, with their ‘Bu’s. I went to the library last week specifically to check up on this… the 2003 GMs didn’t get the same rankings as Toyota and Honda, across the board, in spite of Bob Lutz’ proclamation in 2003 that GM was every bit as good as any of the competition. So far, no confirmation. I’ll check again in 4 or 5 years. And, yes, I check the record, even if I’m planning to buy a new car. Quality cars do not just fall out of the sky; they are built via quality processes. A company that’s consistently hitting on Q, is a company that will continue to hit on Q.
CR is not the only source I use. I also like TrueDelta.com. But CR is probably the one most widely used… Just check the condition of the copy at your local library.
By the way, Edwin… Your hairstylist should have known about the opportunity to get an adjustment. Toyota mailed me a letter or two about the problem. I filed them for future reference (well… one never knows).
Rum Doodle
Buick Diesel said: “One of my daily drivers is a 1983 Buick LeSabre with a 350 diesel.”
That is amazing and GM should give you a special award. That anyone still has one of those old diesel engines that GM tried to foist off on us from 1975 to 1983 is remarkable.
It was almost as if GM had a plan to deliberately turn Americans away from diesel engines. I still run into people who say they will never buy a diesel because of the bad taste in their mouths from those truly horrible GM diesels.
Nate
Edwin,
What does run great mean?
I have a 1990 Buick thats had Mobil 1 in it since 10K miles. It takes about a quart of oil every 5,000 miles. And lately I change at every 10K miles or when I’m down a quart. The car gets 29 MPG routinely on the highway (thats measured at the pump and with the trip odometer). The engine runs great… it just rolled 110K and the transmission (auto) is starting to shift hard and bang gears (typical of GMs in my experience).The interior isn’t to bad, some of the trim pieces have fallen off and the interior parts rattle. The headliner has sagged and the wheel bearings are noisy. Additionally the electronic gauges are starting to act up and the AC controls fell apart. The passenger side temp control stopped working etc… Oh yeah, the paint is faded and worn off too (bad clear coat). But for being a 1990 its not a bad set of wheels if you just need to get from point A to B. it runs well (I guess… all things considered). On top of that I just put the second A/C system in it. I keep spending money on it because I don’t NEED a new car (I want one though) and for what parts to keep this one cost me and considering my fuel mileage is on par with new cars… I really don’t see the point.
I also have a Pontiac Fiero with 223K on it. Its on its second engine, second 5 speed and 4th clutch. The paint is worn off an the clear coat orange and fading. The car has been meticulously maintained despite the abuse it has dealt with from the previous owner and myself (I bought the car with 173K on it). That car ran great too with the exception that it burned oil like crazy until I rebuilt the engine. I love the car (for now) and will keep dumping more money in it then its worth because the return on my fun/dollar is better then even a new Solstice which is probably a nicer, more well refined, more fun car.
The point is define what you mean by RUNS GREAT.
Nate
Buick Diesel
Stew wrote:
Bragging that - “One of my daily drivers is a 1983 Buick LeSabre with a 350 diesel. It has 257,000 miles on the origional engine & tranny. The tranny was rebuilt at 175,000 miles, and I rebuilt the engine myself at 215,000 miles.” - is not really much to brag about.
Stew:
I wasn’t bragging - just simply sharing the fact that one of my daily drivers is 25 years old. Lighten up.
Buick Diesel
Buick Diesel said: “One of my daily drivers is a 1983 Buick LeSabre with a 350 diesel.”
Rum Doodle:
Thank you for your comment. That’s the main reason I posted, as I’m sure most people think exactly what you’re thinking.
Actually, the Olds diesel was available from 1978-1985 and is actually quite misunderstood. The engine was not perfect, but the teething pains were mainly worked out by 1983. There is an Olds diesel enthusiast site at http://www.olds-diesel.com. I would argue that the Olds diesel is the most misunderstood and underestimated engine in history.
However, most (myself included) will agree that the engines in the first years were not reliable.
When I rebuilt the engine, it wasn’t a full-blown rebuild. The pistons and crankshaft, for example, were still in very good condition.
Probably the biggest accomplishment in keeping the engine going this long is finding parts as GM no longer supports these engines. Auto parts stores don’t stock all the parts either.
There are some after-market upgrades such as head bolts that make this a reliable engine. Take care of the engine and upgrade the head bolts and the engine should do fine.
Rum Doodle
~ “Probably the biggest accomplishment in keeping the engine going this long is finding parts as GM no longer supports these engines.”
Whoa, didn’t know that. I bet Daimler still supports the diesel engines they built in the 1970s and 1980s. What does that say about GM?
Anyway, I still think GM owes you special recognition.
Buick Diesel
Thank you, Rum Doodle. Gary Dikkers (who has some very insightful comments) posted earlier that Daimler still provides worldwide support for their Mercedes diesels. I get parts on eBay for my Olds diesel and with an enthusiast site like http://www.olds-diesel.com, I have always been able to find new parts.
Personally, I love this engine. I had it upgraded to dual exhausts with Flow Masters. It now has more power and gets even better MPG.
Chris R
You know, one million miles for a private use vehicle is impressive. Especially with a gas engine. Diesels have gone the distance before, but doing it with a gas engine is a testament to the owners determination on having proper maintenance done at regular intervals. I’ve seen commercial vehicles, usually belonging to delivery companies, get that kind of mileage. Though those companies tend to do maintenance on their vehicles to a much more rigorous schedule than most individuals. Replacing or repairing things before they fail in most cases.
I’m a sticker for details on things like this though, and it appears that the engine had been rebuilt on the pickup truck in question. It depends on what was meant by “rebuilt” though. Merely replacing seals and gaskets to fix or prevent leaks wouldn’t be a rebuild to me. if the engine had been totally rebuilt, then it didn’t go the reported 1,000,000 miles. The rest of the truck did, but a completely rebuilt engine is in essence a new engine. Same for the transmission. It’s still an incredible feat to get the truck past 750,000 miles without a rebuild though, and I congratulate the owner.
Jim
GM usually builds good cars, they just have infamously bad management.
How many old boxy 1970’s-1980’s era RWD B/D/G cars are still on the road? There are still plenty of FWD C/H/A cars around as well. If you see a 20+ year old car on the road, odds are that it’s a GM product.
However, GM dropped great cars and never build obvious winners. Let’s look at some of the more glaring mistakes:
Not getting the right cars to the right divisions at the right time (e.g. no H-Body Chevy)
Discontinuing great cars like the Camaro/Firebird, the Caprice/Roadmaster/Fleetwood Brougham, the El Camino.
Trashing it’s reputation with pos econoboxes like the Vega, Chevette, Citation, Cavalier (and it’s even more embarassing cousin, the Cadillac Cimmaron) It seems like only Toyota could build a reliable small car for GM (the Nova/Prism/Vibe)
On that note, why did GM have three different names and three different brands for their version of the Toyota Corolla?
Creating Saturn in a way that damaged their other divisions.
Driving their once best-selling brand, Oldsmobile, into the ground.
Repeating the same mistakes with Buick.
Trying to sell cars that are just plain ugly, like the Pontiac Aztek and the Chevy Uplander.
Chris Welsh
I am currently selling a 1988 Chevy S-10 Blazer 2 door 4×4. No it is not broken in anyway. It’s mileage is at 142,000. I am selling it because the 2004 I just bought looks a whole lot nicer, and has better gas mileage (not much, but I’ll take what I can get
)
The reason I am posting about it is that I have had a few problems with it. But I commonly joke around with a friend of mine that has a 2006 Toyota Corolla XRS (which I told him he shouldn’t buy) and his car broke twice for every time my old Blazer broke. Now hold on before hitting the keys for rapid fire responses. His issues were more severe than mine so hold on! He had issues involving entire body panels falling off!!! The list of those that have fallen off of the car and Toyota has had to re-attach now include: the front bumper, both side skirts, and the rear bumper plastic add-on attachments for the XRS styling cues. He has also had many mechanical issues.
Needless to say he is desperate to get out of his Corolla and into a GM car. He was complaining the other day that he didn’t have the money to get on the Camaro waiting list!!!!
So don’t worry GM sometimes, we get the Toyota buyers back on our side!!
motorman
the early olds diesel problems were caused by “stackup” in the machining tolerance of the parts,pistons,rods and crankshaft stroke causing a difference in compression ratio between cylinders in the same engine.
Mike
I want to believe that the quality of GM vehicles is up there with the best. I watched the CNBC special “Saving GM” and was annoyed by the woman who said when she thinks of GM she thinks of knobs falling off and other items relating to poor quality. The very next morning I was driving to my local Home Depot, when it started to rain I pushed the button to put the window up in my 2003 S-10…..and….nothing, broken!
Euroclydon
“…was annoyed by the woman who said when she thinks of GM she thinks of knobs falling off and other items relating to poor quality.”
You weren’t paying attention. That was her perception, not what she has actually experienced.
Don’t be annoyed with that woman because of how she perceives things. Somewhere there is a root cause for why she has that perception, and that’s what GM has to find and attack. Changing perceptions is probably more of a challenge than building better cars.
Brady Turley
GM has attacked that root. They changed the badging on an impala and camry and asked which one people thought was a better quality vehicle. Surprise,surprise, they thought the “Toyota” was better.
Stew
Buick Diesel:
My comment came out harsher than intended, sorry. I actually am a Buick fan, even though the only one I’ve ever owned was a 1985 Regal limited. I sourced the turbo hood, 1.3″ anti-roll bars, T-Type interior pieces, vector wheels, and the spoiler from a wrecked Grand National, then had it all repainted factory silver. Paint code 12 if memory serves. Looked like a factory T-Type, only a lot slower.
I ran a vehicle emission testing facility in Washington State for 8 years, and very few of the diesels were left alone in those vehicles. Most were swapped for a 350 SB, which caused the owners even more problems. Without fail, the engine would be the only thing swapped. No evaporative system, no cats, no fuel inlet restrictor, etc were installed. So when the owner would fail the emission test, they would then fail the visual inspection and then the real headaches would begin.
Cheers!
Mike
“…You weren’t paying attention. That was her perception, not what she has actually experienced”
Actually my point was that while I was annoyed at the time, the very next day I experienced the sort of “root cause” that you speak of when the window in my 2003 truck just stopped working making me wonder if this is really a perception problem.
Edwin
Nate,
By runs great, I meant that the 93 Camaro 3.4 V-6 continues to perform well after I’ve put 300,000 miles on it. It accellerated normally and runs smoothly. The original transmission shifts smoothly and I’ve had the transmission fluid changed only once, at 180K by the dealer. That fascinated the dealer service advisors. It has need very few tune ups, and the fuel economy has been very good. After a dealer tune up, the highway MPG is 30 mpg.
The injectors were cleaned once by the dealer at 180K, just tried it to see what would happen, wasn’t sure if it needed it.
The brake drums and rotors are original and the mechanic just said they don’t need any service. Have had the brakes cleaned and adjusted a couple of times and changed the pads about every 18-24 months. The rotors have only needed service two or three times in 15 years. The brakes are excellent, they’ve provided superior performance when needed. The car has had plenty of driving in major metro areas. Its been tried and tested and has passed with flying colors.
The car holds alignment very well, even under adverse circumstances. It has needed very few alignments.
The car has used regular 5-30 oil, changed about every 4,000 miles, sometimes 5,000, no synthetic. It does get the genuine GM oil filters nearly everytime, purchased at the dealer. They are obviously higher quality. The car continues to have very good oil economy. I may use about 3/4 of a quart every 4,000. The car still doesn’t leak oil out of its factory seals to speak of. It leaves no visible drips on the pavement. When it resided In emissions test states, it not only passes the tail pipe tests with the original exhaust system, I asked how well it compared, and the techs said it scored better than many foreign makes.
The factory parts have been impressive. The original starter was only recently replaced. The original AC compressor ran almost continuously for about 250K in a Southern climate and only needed charging once. I has a new one in Florida.
The original interior has held up very well, its all intact and still looks nice. I don’t use seat covers, I like factory equipment, so I have had the seats shampooed on occasion. I’ve gone through two or three sets of floor matts and the car still has the original gray carpet which still looks nice. Only one small part of the drivers seat cloth has needed repair. And it was inexpensive to repair.
The steering wheel gets so much use it is showing some wear. The original factory equipment still works normally, everything from the tape player to the radio to the wiper motors and washers.
No complaints about the original factory paint (a maroon red color), it has normal wear. Areas have been repainted since.
The 1987 Firebird V-8 is garage kept and the original factory white paint still shines up beautifully. It has 120K miles and gets driven. So there is some evidence that GM paints are better. To keep it looking show quality, we had the front grille repainted with a new bird. This car has had one new headliner, and we added a CD player, since it gets driven in hot climate, one AC compressor, an alterator, but everything else in the car is original. This car looks and drives wonderfully with the V-8, you could say it looks and feels like it was brand new.
In college my sister got a 94 Cavalier Z-24. The car was wonderful, better than the foreign small cars. So wonderful that her boyfriend abandoned his Honda when they got married. They have been driving GM ever since. The Cavalier became an Aurora 4.0 V-8, fully loaded, metalic paint with chrome factory wheels. The Honda became a Bonneville.
The Buicks Regals and Pontiacs I’ve had have been good cars.
Two Cadillacs, and no complaints. The 4.9 V-8 and the NorthStar are impressive engines.
I could go on.
Kenny
2002 chevy Impala brought this car with 13000 miles in 02 ran flawlessly for four years now that the warranty is up, replaced the starter, right tie rod, driver power window panel, the windshield wipers had to be adjusted because they were stuck in the up condition and now with my 8year 80000 mile warranty on my catalytic converter expired by 1000 miles the Cat just went. Sweet !!
David
Nate,
The non-maintenance parts I replaced on the 2000 Impala in the course of 200000 miles were;
-Driver’s side window switch.
-Alternator
-Fuel Level Sender
Everything else was brakes, belts, couple of front struts at 100,000 miles, - I never even replaced the hoses but I did change the thermostat at 120,000 when I changed the coolant.
James
Had 14 midwestern winters not rotted the frame on my ‘84 Caprice wagon, I’d still be driving it.
296,000 miles and it ran great. I have several older GM cars that are running great and will be in the stable until I can pass them down to the next generation. However, more recent vehicles have truely soured me on the GM experience. The GMT400/800/900 HD-IFS is horrible. It doesn’t last, has very little suspension travel, and rides no better than a HD Ford of Dodge. It is really sad that this bad design ruins such an otherwise great truck. 20 years is long enough, it is time for GM HD 4×4 trucks to have a coil-spring 5-link solid front axle.
Blue Wing
“Had 14 Midwestern winters not rotted the frame on my ‘84 Caprice wagon, I’d still be driving it.”
You know what James?
GM could easily build an auto frame that wouldn’t rot out after 14 (or even 25) Midwestern winters. But there’s a reason they don’t do it ~ you and many others would still be driving those 1970 and 1980 cars. And what would that do to new car sales? Despite Hresko’s feigned excitement over a 1,000,000 mile Silverado, GM doesn’t really want us driving their cars and trucks that far.