The 2010 Buick LaCrosse. We think it’s beautiful … judge for yourself!
Susan Docherty
Buick-Pontiac-GMC Vice President
It’s always interesting working on the launch of a new product, especially one that’s been absolutely redesigned from the ground up. There are creative challenges, and inspiring moments and rewards when the plan comes together. It takes the experience, expertise and confidence of a world-class team to pull off a launch, and that’s the kind of team I have had the pleasure of working with.
The 2010 Buick LaCrosse will be ‘officially’ revealed at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit, but we revealed photography of the all-new luxury sedan on the morning of January 8. The response has been incredible and gratifying to everyone who worked on this project! We believe that the 2010 LaCrosse is the great next step in the renaissance of Buick, after the strides already made by the Buick crossover, Enclave. Motor Trend agreed.
This world-class sedan has a sculpted exterior design that is instantly recognizable as a Buick, especially with the signature waterfall grill and “sweep spear” body-side styling. LaCrosse is for buyers who want a modern sedan without excess. The interior is crafted from premium materials like warm wood, smoked chrome accents along with French stitching on the instrument panel that is combined with cool blue ambient lighting that relaxes the driver in a library quiet environment. See what AutoWeek said about the interior here.
LaCrosse offers a range of technologies like Navigation, Bluetooth connectivity and safety features like heads up display and side blind zone alert and OnStar … a combination of technologies not available in any competitive vehicle. No sacrifices on the powertrain either, with two advanced direct injection V-6 engines mated to a six speed automatic for improved fuel efficiency with a new all wheel drive system.
LaCrosse can definitely deliver modern luxury, dramatic design, interior craftsmanship and personal technologies that our luxury seeking customers have come to expect. I’m excited at the passion around this car, and for the renaissance of Buick. I’m anxious to hear what you think!
For a full gallery of LaCrosse photos, click over to our Flickr page. And, in case you didn’t see it in our post on Friday, here’s a short video:
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Home-run, especially hope the 2010 LaCrosse Super has the 5.3 V-8. The V-8 gives it credibility with your customer base.
Stop waiting to introduce options. GM is missing luxury business as well as business at all price points.
Does GM really want to sell millions of cars for Buick and Pontiac? Do it the GM enthusiast way.
Follow this immediate plan added to the beautiful 2010 LaCrosse and GM will sell millions of Buicks and Pontiacs the GM way:
*Offer the 2010 LaCrosse with the 5.3 V-8 as the LaCrosse Super. Consider calling it the LaCrosse Supreme. Offer ruby red tricoat, gold mist, bronze mist metalic, heather blue mist, and teal mist, pearl white, black. On the top of the line model offer comfortable perforated leather with nice padding and wood stick and steering wheel trim (forget the heated and cooled seats.) No gray. Cashmere leather with tan carpet, or charcoal leather/carpet.
*Put the current 2008 LaCrosse headlight on the LuCerne as a mid-year offer for 2009 if you can to boost sales in the near term
*Give Buick a real Riviera with the 1966-67 Olds Toronado/Riviera look, have the tail lights go all the way across the rear like the 99 Aurora. Get it to market right away. Affordable luxury, true American elegance. Offer the 3800 with wireless ignition/the 4.6 NorthStar, or maybe the 5.3. $31K for the base model and $40K for the top of the line. Attractive lease options, crank them out. Burgandy, Ruby red, dark blue metalic, bronze mist metalic, gold mist, silver and black.
*Make the concept Riviera from Shanghai into a Regal with a Grand National option. Offer the 2.4 ecotec and an ecotec twin turbo for the Grand National version. Offer nice cloth/leatherette seats on the base model and perforated leather on the Grand National. Target Acura specifically with this car. Styling resembling the 88-89 Trofeo. Make this car good on fuel economy for the younger set be sure to offer the 2.4 ecotec twin turbo as an option. This car will sell for Buick priced around 24K. Yellow, red, teal, gold, white, silver, black.
*Give Buick a GPS based Nav system, just like the Garmin. Drop the disk based nav systems they don’t recognize toll roads properly and they are a pain to use compared to the GPS based.
*Give Buick an MP3 option.
*Give the Enclave to Cadillac at higher price – Buick dealers have the Acadia.
*Give the SRX to Buick as a family wagon at a lower price.
*Let Pontiac take over Saturn immediately nationwide across the board no ifs ands or buts – just do it. Give the Astra and the Outlook to Pontiac. Pontiac gets the Outook and the VUE.
*Give Pontiac a G6 sport truck with an ecotec and ecotec twin turbo, priced right instead of going with the more expensive G8 sport truck.
*Announce the Firebird Bandit coming soon with ecotec twin turbo and a good price.
*Give Pontiac a real Lemans/GTO based on the 1966-67, offer a base V-6 for the Tempest version, the 5.3 for the Lemans, and the LS V-8 for the GTO. Charge low price for the Tempest, mid price for the Lemans and big price for the GTO. Do it the right way this time.
*Keep the Solstice.
*Give the Sky to Chevrolet as a Stinger.
Do these things and you’ll probably be selling enough to justify bringing back Oldsmobile within a short time. Millions.
I have just been in a new LaCrosse, and the interior is really, really nice. This is fortunate since the windowsills are so high that passengers cannot see much of anything else. I also appreciate the generous supplu of airbags. Again this is quite handy since the windshield posts and rear view mirrors create blind spots that can easily hide an 18 wheeler or Greyhound bus.
Overall the closed-in feeling created by the narrow viewing slits was quite claustrophobic. The Lescerne is also bad, but not that bad.
Since the interior and wheelbase is nearly the same as the 02 thru 05 LeSabres why din you not keep that name instead of trying to sell old line Buick buyers on a new name. I bought a used 05 LeSabre rather than a new 06 LaCrosse.
I have just been in a new Lacrosse, and the interior is really, really nice. This is fortunate since the windowsills are so high that passengers cannot see much of anything else. I also appreciate the generous supply of airbags. Again this is quite handy since the windshield posts and rear view mirrors create blind spots that can easily hide an 18 wheeler or Greyhound bus.
Overall the closed-in feeling created by the narrow viewing slits was quite claustrophobic.
Interesting comments Bob. I appreciate you posting them. Those narrow viewing slits must be the latest fashion trend, since they use the same design cue in the Camaro.
They may be in fashion, but that doesn’t make them good as you aptly point out. It’s too bad GM’s designers don’t concern themselves more with function than fashion.
You want funcion? Then take the Aztek. That vehicle was great for function, the design was terrible. I’ll take a great design over function most of the time. The Chrysler 300C also has gun slit windows and that car was hot when it came out. Most car manufacturers are going toward the high belt line low roof. The new Accord and Camry both have a higher beltline than their predecessors. Don’t think this is just a GM “problem” (although I don’t think it’s a problem).
Looks like a carbon-copy of a BMW 5-series (which in itself is largely regarded as a bad design by Chris Bangle) with a Buick grille from the Enclave slapped on it. Blue lighting for the dash? VW came out with that 10 years ago with the new Beetle!
The Lacrosse is predominately designed for the China market where it serves as a limo for all the wealthy.
Ugly. Buick needs to go away.
Honestly, it looks like you’ve just taken the grill off the Enclave and nailed it to this. Is that really the best GM can do?
Its a nice looking car, but this name is not relevant to Buick buyers who are used to familiar names and not a river city in my home state.
This is a very nice and clever design. It is a major design improvement over the current model. Furthermore, the engines choices are very sensible. The direct injection 3.0 liter engine is just fantastic. I hope we see the same sort of improvements in the seats. We don’t need any more lazy-boy seats in Buiks.
This is freaking hot!! I really hope though that Buick offers a coupe/convertible soon. What about this next Regal?
Spectacular and stunning. It’s difficult to believe that this vehicle is a GM product.
THe car is beautiful, go to any forum on the next, grand prix, regal, LSx guys any of them love this car. It’s hands down one of the best looking GM has, right next to the CTS in beauty, build it GM, i’ll buy one if i can get a V8 or a forcefed 6.
I still am not totally in love with this design. Like a lot of the other comments from above, I feel that the design is a bit too muddles up. There’s a little Lexus, BMW, and Acura stirred up completed with what almost looks like slapped on Buick badges and a Grille. Sorry, but its just not my thing.
Edwin,
Sorry but you and I must be two totally different customers. While I can see your wanting for the V8…. I say why bother? The new 3.6 DI makes 280-300 HP and has a high rev rather then high torque feel. I’ve driven both. I like both.
I agree GM needs to put options on this one. They need a mid point version and the high end version…. though I see this car as a Lexus, Infiniti and Acura competition. So I don’t think watering it down is good for GM’s image on this one. I think a 4 cylinder or diesel version would be a great idea though.
Sorry I like the old Riviera as it is. Bring it here GM!!! (sorry I have to voice my opinion because I think GM finally has a clue all thats left is executing it right).
Grand National??? You gotta be kidding. Let the past die. Its time for a new name and a new car for that name. GM did target Acura with this thing!!! Have you ever driven an Acura? This should be good competition. My only complaint is an over active dash.
GPS nav system? You are aware that GPS is the positional system not the storage medium? All current Nav systems on consumer cars are GPS based. How they store the maps is what you are talking about. What you want is a Hard Drive based system. Please get your details right before you post.
I agree an MP3 option like the Cadillac CTS has would be a great idea. In fact I don’t understand why GM can’t make a global radio package (maybe they have). Its annoying to see each GM with a totally different stereo. The CTS system looks pretty promising with the radio playback and MP3 player. Add wifi and iTunes and you’ve got the market beat.
Sorry the Enclave is the way to go and the Acadia makes sense for non luxury buyers. I like how GM is making Caddy and Buick the luxury brands again.
GM needs to put the SRX to either Chevy or Saturn as a lower cost version.
Ax Pontiact@!!
Are you kidding me a real GTO from 1966…. a Tempset… again let them die and make something new. Muscle cars are mostly dead leave them rest in peace. Luxury sport is the new Muscle car.
The Sky should go to Caddy it has the same lines. Just add a V8 or Turbo or the new 3.6 DI engine….can you afford the insurance though?
Why would GM want to bring Oldsmobile back? They were a nice car in the day certainly when they stopped production they were the nicest thing GM had for the younger generation. But I think GM just proved they can appeal to the younger generation.
Ted,
I don’t quite think its a copy of the 5 series. I think its more a Lexus, Infiniti,Accord,Camry combination. I wish it was a bit more Acura TL. I’m not a fan of the complex interior (as compared to the super sleek and simple CTS interior). But it IS an improvement on everything else GM has been offering.
I think the LaCrosse will do fine here. Though I think it needs abetter name and a different grille. Perhaps Buick should go with the nameless idea. How about a Buick LC3 or something…. LaCrosse isn’t simple enough. But a name is just a name.
Lee Searies, gtjeff,
I agree change the grill to the Opel grill. And change the name something younger sounding.
Alex,
are you kidding me!!!!! Thats what I love about my Buick!! The seats are probably the most comfortable of any car I’ve ever driven. And I’ve got a 20 year old car with crappy seats compared to the Buick seats of the day!!
I agree that Buick needs a bit more of a sporty feel to their car but I think Buicks ride on the highway is really nice. If they use rheomagnetic shocks they’ll be able to get a nice sport ride without being harsh on the highway. I’d love a Buick with sport mode for the back roads and float mode for the highway.
Susan Docherty,
I think the new Buick (Opel) is just what Buick needed… a younger crowd car. I do however have some concerns that the interior is overdone. I love the nav system but what about Hard Drive based MP3 player and similar radio equipment as the CTS has?
Also I’m concerned about the center armrest not extending to a comfortable position on long drives. It looks to be back to far. I’ve driven a VW with a moveable arm rest and found it annoying that it didn’t extend to a comfortable position with drinks in the drink holders. Please don’t repeat this. Every Buick I have owned and driven had an extremely comfortable Armrest.
Also the side panel on the driver’s door concerns me. I have driven an Oldsmobile Aurora with the nicely styled wrap around door panel/AC vent. It never gave me enough side to side legroom and proved very uncomfortable to lean my leg against on long trips.
Also please put the Opel Insignia grille on the LaCrosse or offer it as an option. I’m just not a fan of the vertical grille.
These few things make me hesitant on this new Buick.
Also where are the diesel and 4 cylinder versions of the AWD car?
Keep up the great work. I’m excited to test drive this Buick!!
I like the new LaCrosse, but what’s the future of the GM’s large cars, specifically the Buick Lucerne/Cadillac DTS? I hope the LaCrosse is not going to replace the Lucerne. If so, can Buick survive with just two cars (LaCrosse and Enclave)? I would like to see another Riviera, but it should be more elegant than the last iteration. FYI: I currently own a Lucerne Super and previously owned an ‘07 Cadillac DTS. I would like to replace these cars with something similar from GM, not a luxury version of a smaller GM car.
It is more than just an Enclave grille attached, its all new styling could really bring in new customers if they come back to the finely American built car. The mileage is better than cars of its size, but I still don’t understand why my 2000 Buick Park Avenue gets better real mileage at 18 mpg city, 28 hwy, especially considering that it has a larger and roomier inside, just not quite as modern. As always, General motors does put in extras that the imports, even some of the luxury imports do not.
I like it. It’s got a nice clean, modern look to it without being over the top. I’m wondering if this car is going to replace both the current LaCrosse and the Lucerne. Currently the two seem so close in size that they may actually compete with each other for Buick sales. Maybe it would be better to just have one large Buick.
I’m hoping to see some more Delta II cars besides the Cruze. Like a new HHR, hopefully with slightly bigger windows and narrower pillars to afford a better view while driving it. The current HHR is extremely useful, and I and other owners love them. However the thick pillars are the only consistent complaint that we seem to have. Give us better visibility and you’ll get us coming back for new ones, you may even get some conquest buyers who are looking for an alternative to a small SUV.
This car is a significant improvement over the current LaCrosse. But why, in this day and age when fuel economy is a concern, is there no four cylinder option? Earlier on I had read that there would be a 2.0 litre turbo direct injected four offered. It appears now that the 3.0 litre V-6 is the base engine.
I doubt that you will offer a six speed gearbox for sale either. Yes, I am well aware that very few people drive a stick anymore, and that you will have a six speed automatic with a manual mode. For those of us that actually enjoy a manual, the manual mode is joke.
This is an area where your competition beats you yet again. Acura doesn’t sell many TSX or TLs with a manual, BUT IT IS AVAILABLE! Same with Audi A-4 and the BMW 3 series, which I would assume is the target competition for this car. Heck, I can get a five speed in an Accord, so why doesn’t GM offer a manual to the 5% of drivers that would enjoy that feature.
You have come out with a vehicle that I actually like the looks of, and would consider one. But without a manual, I can’t see myself driving over to the Buick dealer in my ‘06 TSX with a six speed looking to trade it in.
Real great job. Nice agressive looking. Keep on your good work.
A beautiful car indeed.
This is actually a great segment to launch right now, the near luxury market in which you get all the luxury without all the cost. That is exactly what Buick is known for.
Add to that the fact that you are getting the best styled sedan no matter what the price. The unique “sweepspear” design and classic Buick grill add an element of heritage to a Lexus quiet, Lexus inspired interior and rear. Buick said it was gunning for Lexus and from my perspective you hit it right on the nose.
If the Regal a la the Opel Insignia is coming to a Buick/Pontiac/GMC dealership near you than that would be a great 1 – 2 punch.
Once GM and Buick gets its confidence and optimism back lets make the sweepspear bolder, and the grill more proud in the future.
Of course, there is no sense judging the design from a picture, but on the road I envision that this car is going to shine and stand out for years to come.
This car is a winner!!! Nice job. This and the 2010 Ford Taurus show that the US auto industry is back.
Now if Buick had a fullsized and smaller model sedan as good as this, people might “rather have a Buick”. Good job GM.
Those asking for a 4 cylinder need to remember this is a Buick, not a Chevy. If you want a midsize car with a 4 cylinder engine GM has three options for you. This is not one of them. This is a premium midsize car just like the CTS and people buying at this price point are not looking for a four cylinder engine. They want decent acceleration and decent mileage. On top of that the Lacrosse is very heavy and would be too slow with a four cylinder engine. This car is much heavier than the Malibu.
In spite of the complaining here this car has gotten a positive reaction on other car sites. It seems like the Usual Suspects are here to rain on GM’s parade and talk about how this car looks too much like others. It resembles a Lexus GS to some degree but the details are all Buick and mostly attractive. Furthermore, it has more technology and better styling than key competitors like the TL and Es350.
“This is a premium midsize car just like the CTS and people buying at this price point are not looking for a four cylinder engine.”
If it’s “just like the CTS” why are they bothering to build it? Doesn’t CTS adequately cover the premium market?
I really think with Pontiac fading and Saab going the new 4-seater convertible should go to Buick.
You’re spending all this time thinking of a new tag line, when all Buick needs is a halo to get the buzz going.
The g-6 needs a Buick interior and a Velite front end and there you go..a Buick convertible!
kgm777,
I certainly hope GM only has two cars in Buick. They don’t need more. I guess maybe a nice cruising car but I think the new ones do that well. I’ve always loved the Park Avenues for long trips. But being young I’d rather a sportier car.
I think the Riviera would be a great addition.
Why not an STS to replace your current Buick?
Personally I’m very happy to see the all wheel drive option on the LaCrosse.
Gerry,
Its a shame they don’t have the diesel or 6 speed. That would make me go out and buy one without much hesitation. The diesel is a bigger deal to me then the 6 speed. A properly tuned auto today is almost as good as a 6 speed with none of the knee aches of city driving.
If GM listens it wouldn’t take much to put a 4 cylinder in this thing or a Diesel for that matter. As from what I can tell this is basically an Opel Insignia with a few American touches.
Edward Haynes,
I think this car is a stab at Infiniti and Lexus. The interior looks more Infiniti then Lexus and the exterior… well its pretty good.
As far as I can tell this thing is pretty much the Opel Insignia with some modifications to the styling package. Not a bad job at badge engineering from the looks of it so far. A test drive will back it up (or not).
I’m not a fan of the grille but I’d tolerate it considering the rest of the package.
Sheth,
You are right this is a Luxury segment car. But I can get an Acura with a 4 cylinder (the TSX). Why not offer the nice interior and Buick refinement with a nice interior. All things not offered on a Malibu. I really don’t think a 200 HP Ecotech would be to small for this car. If they can break 32 or 34 MPG it’d be a sell to people who aren’t power crazy but want a nice car inside and out. Though to be honest I’d rather see a 220 or 200 HP 2.X liter V6 with DI. Not sure if GM has any of them in the High Feature V6 line.
Sheth, I don’t think the usual suspects are here to rain on GM’s parade. I am excited to see this Buick especially with AWD and will be going to the dealer as soon as it available. I have been waiting for a car with modern interior and styling.
I do hope though that GM takes a look at the feedback and fine tunes a few things based on the feedback they get. My primary concerns are listed above (Center Armrest, Door Panel and Leg room and lack of advertised Hard Drive based MP3 player and front grille). I think GM has so much right on the new LaCrosse that it wouldn’t take much to finish it by the time they are ready to market it. Those are the only faults I can find with the exception of the overly active looking interior (which I am reserving judgement until I see it in person).
The concern I have is that when I see it in person and interact with the car that typical GM quality issues will show through all the great looks. I sincerely hope this isn’t the case. My old Buick is quickly in need of a replacement. How excited I’d be to buy another Buick.
Andrew Bazalgette,
Its not just like the CTS. Perhaps from a shear utility point of view it is. But it is a different flavor of the same kind of car. One I believe GM needs. The CTS is GM’s own thing. It has very unique styling. However there are people who don’t like the CTS’s looks and want something a bit more toned down. This is exactly what I think the new Buick does. It appeals to the sleek car crowd. I personally think both cars are great in their own right but I am drawn toward smooth curves rather then sharp edges that others may like.
For that reason alone GM needs this Buick.
Additionally this Buick from what I have heard is a smaller car. The CTS is huge compared to a lot of the foreign competition. GM needs a luxury car thats the size of the Aura or Malibu. Sorry neither of those are true Luxury cars. This gives GM the ability to compete with the Infiniti, Acura, and Lexus crowd in their own size class. Something I don’t think the CTS could do.
Sheth wrote:
“Those asking for a 4 cylinder need to remember this is a Buick, not a Chevy. If you want a midsize car with a 4 cylinder engine GM has three options for you. This is not one of them. This is a premium midsize car just like the CTS and people buying at this price point are not looking for a four cylinder engine. They want decent acceleration and decent mileage.
My 2006 Acura TSX, with a manual, set me back around $30K with the accessories I wanted added. It regularily gets 26-29 city, 29-33 highway, and does 0-60 in 7.9 seconds when tested by the automotive press. While Acura may be perceived by some as a less than luxury brand, it is sure as heck a square competitor for this car.
I specifically WANT a four cylinder engine, it is quite adequate for my needs, and gets great gas mileage.
This car is built off of the same platform as the Opel Insignia, Episilon II. That car looks even better than the LaCrosse pictured above, and is available with a 1.6 l, a 1.8 l, a 1.6 l turbo, a 2.0 l turbo, and a 2.8 l V-6, not to mention two diesels. I’m sure that a manual is available also.
This is where I believe GM makes a significant mistake in their marketing. A sizeable portion of the purchasing public does NOT want an Americanized model. Give us the same features as offered in Europe. If GM was following this philosophy, there would have been a rebadged Opel Vectra in my driveway instead of an Acura.
GM has a chance to do this car right. Dumb it down because you believe that Americans have different tastes than Europeans, and those sales will continue to go to the likes of Audi, BMW, Lexus, Acura, and 300 series MBs.
“If it’s “just like the CTS” why are they bothering to build it? Doesn’t CTS adequately cover the premium market?”
Why does Toyota make a Highlander Limited and RX350? Why do they make an Avalon and a Lexus ES350? The Lacrosse will be somewhat cheaper than the CTS and is based on a FWD platform. The CTS is more premium and aimed at enthusiasts who want a sports sedan. The Lacrosse is unlikely to be seen as competition for imports with RWD but the CTS is very much a competitor to those vehicles.
Finally a beautiful sedan from GM North America. 2 little things though I’m glad I am in Canada so the Allure name is much more pleasing. Second is a item that would stop me from buying your car. It needs a manual transmission I am tired of the domestics complaining they are broke yet they don’t offer what the imports have. My Subaru has a manual, my Honda has a manual both loaded. Toyota, BMW, Lexus even Benz offer manual transmissions. What is the scoop you want buyers under 40 (I’m 36) and I really would buy this car and yes that is a 1st for a GM sedan. But no manual even at 5% to 10% production because you still have to make you old domestic buyers happy go for it it’s 20,000 to 30,000 sales you never had. enough said stop asking for money and get your head out of the sand. If you build it they will come. (Import people) that is.
“Second is a item that would stop me from buying your car. It needs a manual transmission.”
Good point Dale, and I concur.
Can someone at GM explain why a car based on the Opel Insignia–which comes with a six-speed manual in Germany–isn’t available with a manual once you’ve brought the design across the Atlantic to build it here?
It would also be nice if the LaCrosse was available with the same turbo-diesel engines available with the Insignia in Europe. I know, I know, you’ll claim emission rules prohibit you from doing that, but the diesel insignia already meets Euro 5 emission standards which are no less rigorous than those of our EPA.
One of the first things you should get your lobbyists in Washington to do is to homolgate and synchronize the Euro and U.S. standards so you can build Opels in North America with the same specs as European Opels. I’d much prefer buying an Insignia than a LaCrosse.
You’ve rebadged other Opels as Saturns, so why did you rebadge this one as a Buick?
Gerry,
You said it spot on. GM has been messing up with not offering customers choices within their high end brands. I agree with you. As much as I want 500 HP I’d be just as happy with a 150 or 180 HP Ecotech in a car like the LaCrosse.
GM continues to do this though. If you search for the Opel Astra on google images you’ll find a fairly attractive interior lineup with Nav. If you do the same search for Saturn Astra you’ll see the same exact style interior only without all the nice things that make it attractive. For some reason GM hasn’t quite learned that some Americans want the same things Europeans want.
Dale,
I agree The Allure is a better name for it. I also agree that a manual would be nice.
Another thing I think (hope) GM didn’t leave out was the 40 or 80 gig hard drive on the new LaCrosse. I think the CTS stereo is amazing and I hope GM is smart enough to offer that on the Buick. Its almost a deal breaker in some regard. Seeing such a nice car thats so sophisticated looking yet not offering something that is offered on the CTS would be disheartening.
Anyone know if the Buick has any advanced electronics in it for Cell Phone, Nav etc… I know its got BlueTooth and Navigation. But is it DVD based or Hard Drive based…. does it have speech recognition or the ability to record HD/XM radio?
Not bad looking, the ’sweep spear’ styling cue reminds me of the Dodge Charger though.
how long do you think the V-6 engines will be around with the 35 MPG corp average coming up ????. how long do you think a car the size of the new buick will be around ??? lets hear some guesses. my guess less than 5 years. looks like i will be keeping my 2008 corvette a long time and i will have to soon replace my 20 year old silverado before they also disappear or maybe if you want a pickup you will have to show proof to the govt that you NEED a pickup.
Wendell Mercantile,
All very true and good points. I think this is what most of the people opposed to the GM bailout were affraid of. Once again GM has the products we want and like a bully they are holding them just outside of arms reach.I myself agree that the Insignia is more appealing to my age group. Both the LaCrosse and Insignia are nice cars but one would sell better then the other.
As far as engines… again GM has missed the boat. I too would love one with a Turbo Diesel AWD. Or even a small turbo 4 cylinder. I see no reason a car like this can’t get good economy AND be fun to drive. GM simply ONCE AGAIN is disinterested in what their customers really want.
I can’t imagine it takes that much work to drop a US spec Ecotech into this thing. What does that entail? A US engine, Computer and exhaust system specs in whatever the engine package that they use in Europe.
If GM put a manual in it they would be sending a very clear message that they mean business to Acura and other Luxury car makers who offer manuals. GM doesn’t really need a manual if they program their Auto right and do a few other things. But I doubt they will…. once again the GM we’re right you’re wrong mentality at work. Some day their inability to listen to customers will catch up to them.
My only reservations on the LaCrosse are whether its short comings in style, engine choice, transmission choice and interior will stop me from buying or not. .. then there is that little issue of price… but if it had all the features I wanted that wouldn’t bother me. I just hate to spend good money on something that is less then what I want.
I hope GM and Susan Docherty are listening to this and other posts. Maybe they can iron out these bugs early before they put the car on the market and it’ll be a home run. Rather then just a hit to second base.
“You are right this is a Luxury segment car. But I can get an Acura with a 4 cylinder (the TSX). Why not offer the nice interior and Buick refinement with a nice interior. All things not offered on a Malibu. I really don’t think a 200 HP Ecotech would be to small for this car. ”
Nate:
People buying this size of luxury car do not want a four cylinder. As usual you are holding GM products to double standards. Do you see an four cylinder in the TL or ES350 or 2010 Taurus? No. Why would you expect to see one in the Lacrosse which has a base curb weight of about 3900lbs? If you want a GM sedan with a four cylinder there are three solid choices available. Contrary to your biased opinion the Malibu does indeed have a nice interior and quiet ride. Its a very nice car for those looking to spend less than $30k.
I believe most of the new GM models have a music HD. You might want to read the press release to get a better idea of what technology will be offered. The recording of live radio does not appear to be on the options list.
Wendell,
If you think the Lacrosse is a rebadge of the Insignia you must not have seen eiter car. The Lacrosse looks nothing like the Insigina and has a longer wheelbase and overall length. This is not a matter of bring an Opel over and calling it a Buick. This is a unique car on the same chassis. As for manuals, you should know they are not popular in large cars in the US. Its silly to ask why a luxury sedan like the Lacross lacks a manual. Similar cars from Lexus, Lincoln and MB offer automatics only. The TL doenst even offer a manual for now and when it comes available it will only be for the expensive AWD model.
Gerry:
If you actually looked at the features and specs on the Lacrosse (which you have not obviously) you would find out that it has plenty of high tech features found on the Insignia. In Europe cars are more expensive and tend to offer more high end options. You claim Americans want European cars and their features but there is no proof of that. Most models that have been brought to the US virtually unchanged by GM and Ford in the past have not sold well here. The Insignia would be considered very pricey for a midsize car in the US if it had all the options available in Europe. VW offers a very luxurious Passat and that car has not resonated with US consumers and that is largely due to pricing. Americans are not into diesels and diesel fuel is too expensive in the US. Different conditions exist in Europe that allow diesels to prosper.
The TSX has never been a volume seller and its one of the few luxury branded midsize sedans to have a four cylinder engine. You wont find a four cylinder in models from Lexus or BMW or Mercedes or Cadillac. The only reason the TSX has a four cylinder engine is because its really an Accord from Europe. Its only considered a “luxury car” in the US. Its not going to compete with the Lacrosse because its far smaller, offers only FWD and lacks power.
Dale,
Manuals are very rare in the luxury class. Lexus offers a manual on ONE model and Toyota does not offer manuals with V6 engines. MB offers a manual on TWO models, one of which is a roadster. Acura offers a manual on one model. Only BMW offers manuals on most models it offers. Manuals are very uncommon in luxury cars and even when they are offered (as on BMWs and CTS) they constitute the minority of sales by far. I read that only 5% of buyers chose the manual on the last generation CTS. The Nissan Maxima dropped its manual option years ago because no one was interested. The Lacrosse is not a performance sedan and a manual would make no sense on this car.
Gerry,
I guess you forgot about Cadillac. Buick is not going after people who want RWD performance cars. Thats what Cadillac is for. Your comment about GM “forgetting” about people who want performance and manual transmissions doesnt make sense when you consider Cadillac’s offerings. Buick is aimed at Lexus and traditional luxury car fans. You say GM has “dumbed” this car down and yet it offers more features and technology than comparable cars from the brands you seem to love so much. THis car has more tech than the ES350 or Acura TL or a comparably priced C class. Gm said the ride and handling was tuned in EUROPE, not the US so you should not be too concerned. How many Lexus models are tuned to European ride and handling standards?
No Sheth, I sure didn’t forget about Cadillac. I priced a CTS before I bought my TSX. It was over $5K more, even with my GM discount, than what I purchased. Yes, it has nice styling, but I liked the looks of the TSX better. The gas mileage isn’t no where near what I get either, with my TSX besting my friend’s CTS by at least 25%.
“The LaCrosse is not a performance sedan and a manual would make no sense on this car”
If your attitude is typical of GM’s mentality, no wonder that people wander over to the VW, Audi, BMW, Acura etc. dealers.
Who is John Galt.
I think the car looks beautiful and I’m happy to see it being launched in the US.
beautiful …………. bring this car to the arab gulf countries and dont worry about dealers you can always but them with GMC ……. realy buick still has a very good reputation here
The STS has too firm a ride for me and is too small inside to be a viable DTS or Lucerne replacement. I really want a full-sized luxury car, not a smaller sports car with a few luxury attributes added to try to appease luxury buyers. If Cadillac and Buick wish to abandon their traditional clientele, then I guess I might have to abandon GM altogether and go to Lexus or possibly to the Lincoln Town Car (if Ford ever updates it). Too bad, because I think the US mfrs., particularly GM and Ford, have really improved in areas of quality in the past decade; just remember those of us who want a BMW or Audi will buy a BMW or Audi, not a domestic imitation created in a vain effort to woo European car owners. FYI: I really liked my DTS and now my Lucerne better than my ‘06 Q45 (of course, Infiniti is not even making the Q anymore and the M is not luxury-oriented enough to be a competitor to the DTS).
Sheth,
Take a look at the CTS web page they offer a hard drive based radio recorder that appears to be similar in concept to TiVO. What a great way to get people into GM’s… offer them something no other car company has. To bad its not being offered on the Buick.
Sheth,
I have driven in a Malibu, its not bad but its no where near what it could be for that price range. Additionally no Nav option last I looked. Sorry but GM is missing it on that front in my opinion. Right now Audi and VW are somewhat appealing in that regard.
Sheth,
I don’t know how you say the the LaCrosse and Insignia look nothing a like. A side by side comparison shows me they are based on the same platform. The interiors are incredibly similar. Sure a few things are moved around but I find it hard to tell them apart inside. I had to actually compare two images side by side to notice the differences (and they are subtle).
As for wheel base. We’re talking 20 cm in length (8 inches) and 10 cm in wheel base (4 inches). While these changes can change handling a bit… its not enough that I’d call it a different car.
kgm777
I hate to say it but I think GM is missing the boat as well. Though I’m not a full size luxury buyer… I can see that the market for them appears to be quickly dwindling. How many people out there still want a full size? I sure don’t. I’m not sure how you think an STS is smaller inside. I’ve been in them they are huge… even compared to the Olds Aurora and the old ‘88 Buick Park Ave my dad used to have (though that was a real huge car). I honestly can’t see GM selling that many of their true full sized cars anymore.
I think the sad reality is GM can’t compete with everyone anymore. So they will probably end up losing some customers in order to gain others. Hopefully the gains outweigh the losses. Though I myself am borderline for quite a few reasons. One of which is I can get what I want in other foreign brands, things GM may never really offer.
Gerry:
I presume that you know that the TSX is smaller than the CTS and offers a much less powerful standard engine with two less cylinders. That likely explains why it gets better mileage. The CTS’ mileage is fully competitive with other V6 luxury sedans such as the TL, C350 and G37. You should compare apples to apples. The fact that that a smaller car with a smaller engine gets better mileage than the CTS doesnt mean the CTS is somehow underperforming.
“If your attitude is typical of GM’s mentality, no wonder that people wander over to the VW, Audi, BMW, Acura etc. dealers. ”
My thinking is that you dont provide options that will not appeal to your potential customers. A manual Lacrosse has very limited appeal and that’s why Buick doesn’t offer such a transmission. Most Acuras and six cylinder (and V8) Audis do not offer manual transmissions so I fail to see how you have concluded that those brands are taking GM’s business based on transmission offerings. As I said before, only BMW has shown a strong commitment to manual transmissions in the luxury class.
Sheth,
You are again missing the point. The CTS may be a larger car…. but where are the small European 6 cylinders with turbos that GM makes overseas that should be a mere bolt in and emissions testing away. The Saab has one, the Opel Insignia has one…all based on the high feature V6… People are interested in mileage. Telling us to compare Apples to Apples will result in us telling you to compare Air to the competition… because GM doesn’t have anything that competes.
What car does GM have to compete with an Audi A4, A3, A5?
Now that is why I think the Insignia and LaCrosse need more options. It IS the closest thing GM has. And they need to grab those customers up before they buy their new German or Japanese imports. But they can’t do that unless GM realizes they are potential customers.
Again missing the point… A manual LaCrosse would grab buyers who otherwise would buy non GM. Not to mention the transmission designed for the g6 GTP (3.6 240 HP) should be good enough to put in the LaCrosse.
Are you going to argue that the CTS doesn’t have a manual? People DO buy them.
What car does GM make to compete with an A3 or A4 Audi or Acura TSX. I can’t think of one.
I challenge you to.
“As I said before, only BMW has shown a strong commitment to manual transmissions in the luxury class.”
Our point exactly Sheth. And isn’t BMW regarded as one of the finest cars in the world? They got there by giving people what they want. Why does GM have to lag behind? Why do you (and GM) think that people who can afford luxury don’t want the enjoyment of complete control when they drive their cars?
Nate:
Your comments are spot on. There is no direct competitor available for the TSX, Audi A3 and A4, or for that matter the smallest IS Lexus with it’s small v-6.
Oh, wait Nate, we were wrong, we forgot about Saab. A 9-3 is available with a 2.0 l turbo, and a six speed. Nice car, too bad GM is looking to dump them. That Saab is on the same platform as the older Malibu, which is essentially the same platform as LaCrosse except it is on Epsilon II. Just another case where GM feels they know their North American market so well that they ignore a portion of it. One would think after seeing their market share decrease so dramatically over the last 25 years that they would rethink their approach.
The Buick LaCrosse has the ability to be that car if GM North America wants it to be. Ultimately, it is up to them whether or not they want people like me to shop at their store, or go to the likes of VW, Audi, Acura, and Lexus, and Volvo.
Sheth:
I can get a 2008 TL with a six speed manual (and it is coming back for 2010 in FWD and AWD), so if the LaCrosse is only competitive with the TL Acura, where is a competitive six speed offering from Buick? Lemme guess, they are not interested in the less than 5% of people that want to shift on their own. The attitude still is “here it is, take it or leave it”. No manual, and I shop somewhere else that DOES want to cater to my needs.
I’d really like to have the ability to purchase a “made in America” car that meets my needs, especially since as a taxpayer I already paid for a portion of the car with my tax dollars. But I’m not about to compromise my desires in an auto just so GM can standardize. If they can’t build in the flexibility in their model offerings (and manufacturing processes), then they are not interested in me as a customer.
Gerry,
I’ve never been a fan of the Saabs I don’t think their directly competitve with the cars we mentioned. I think the Insignia would be a better choice… with its two or 3 turbo gas engines…
I agree. One would think GM would pay attention to these forums when their customers talk. But apparently they don’t.
I agree with you 100% GM decides whether its customers buy or not. When we talk and they don’t listen…. oh well their loss.
As to Audi A3/A4, TSX etc… I think the best solution is to bring the Opel Insignia over. Its a bit smaller, lighter and has the small yet higher HP engines available. If they had to I suppose they could badge it as a Pontiac or Buick… But if they were smart they’d make it a Caddy and leave the exterior styling as is. Caddy needs a non stealth fighter car for the rest of us who want the Caddy name… though if they brought it out as a smaller Buick I’d be very happy. I’ve always loved Buick rides and noise even when a bit ocean going…..
GM should be asking what do we have to do to get you to buy (besides bribe us with deals that put them into bankruptcy).
Its not a matter of standardizing its a matter of moving some puzzle pieces to the right spots. GM has the car, the options and the engines people want… just not all in the same box and not in the US. Imagine a Buick thats the size of an Acura or Audi A4 that offers good engine choices with turbos, a 6 speed and all the interior options you’d expect to find in a Caddy…. of course saab may be the company but I’ve got no interest in Saab and their prices when a car like the Insignia exists… Buick maybe… Saab no.
“A manual Lacrosse has very limited appeal and that’s why Buick doesn’t offer such a transmission.”
Sheth,
It may have limited appeal, but it would send a message: i.e that GM is serious about cars. A Buick that is available with only an automatic perpetuates the stodgy image of Buick as a car for real estate brokers and insurance salesmen, who use their car mainly for going to Rotary Club meetings and cruising to the country club for Sunday brunch.
Even if they sell only a handful, people will know that this is a serious car ~ and a serious company.
Nate:
GM sells Saabs in the US. The 9-3 has a turbo V6 and is smaller and lighter than the CTS. You are asking for cars that are not popular in the US market. The TSX is a rarity in that its a FWD luxury car with a manual transmission. It really doesn’t have a lot of direct competitors. At this point GM doesn’t have a compact size luxury sedan so if that is what you seek I supposed you will have to look elsewhere. Turbos are rare in luxury cars (BMW and Saab being exceptions) so I don’t know why you keep harping on the lack of a turbo on the CTS or Lacrosse. You also seem to imply that a smaller displacement turbo V6 guarantees better mileage. That is not the case. The 9-3 doesnt get great mileage in spite of having a 2.8L engine. The 335i has twin turbos and is no more efficient than the CTS. You continue to omit important facts as you continue your incessant castigation of every product decision GM makes. Please offer some proof that GM’s luxury cars are less efficient than their key competitors. The 135i gets about the same mileage as the 3900lb CTS in spite of a smaller engine and lower curb weight.
I did not say GM doesnt offer a manual on the CTS, I said its a fraction of overall CTS sales. This is the case for every pricey car that offers a manual. Manual transmissions have low take rates in the US on virtually every car that offers such an option. This is why many cars have phased out manuals over the years. The G6 and Maxima are two examples.
Gerry,
Buicks attitude is the same that Lexus has with the ES350 and IS350. Its the same that MB has with the C350. Its the same for Nissan with the 2009 Maxima and Chrysler for the 300. BTW, from what I’ve read the manual tranny for the TL will only be on the AWD model. I am still waiting for an explanation as to why Buick should be offering manuals when most of their competitors do not. Sorry, but the TSX is not going to be a key competitor for the Lacrosse. I have a hard time believing that you have much interest in being a GM customer based on your posts here. I also think its interesting that you feel you personally have paid for the development of vehicles like the Lacrosse even though the design was finalized long before they got a loan from the government. Manual transmissions are on the way out. This is not GM’s fault or problem. In American manuals are associated with compacts and sporty cars. The Lacrosse is niether. If the ES350, Taurus, MKZ and Maxima start offering manuals than perhaps Bucik will as well. Until then I think Buick managers have enough sense to know there is little demand for a manual in a large, FWD luxury car.
Nigel,
There is a reason why GM has more than one division. There is no need for Buick to be making sports sedans when Pontiac and Cadillac exist. I do not understand how people can criticize Buick in a vacuum as if other GM brands dont exist. You think GM isnt serious about making performance cars with offerings like the CTS-V and G8 GXP on the market now? I don’t see how that could be the case. Buick is going after the same type of people who buy a Lexus now. Lexus is the #1 luxury brand in the US and they dont cater to manual loving driving enthusiasts at all. You and others are suggesting the path to success is to emulate BMW but Lexus has been outselling BMW for many years now. Cadillac will worry about BMW while Buick will be aimed at Lincoln and Lexus. While you chose to make fun of the buyers who like Buicks the reality is their demographics arent that different from the average Lexus buyer. Older people tend to have more money than younger people.
Tony:
I suggest you get familiar with GM’s lineup. The CTS-V and G8 GXP are available with manual transmissions. The Camaro will be available with a manual transmission. The Cobalt/HHR SS and Corvette offer manual transmissions. GM offers manuals on its performance cars. The Lacrosse is not a sports sedan. Period. I cannot believe that people think Buick is gunning for BMW.
1st off the manual answer was to the import question not the luxury question Cadillac is a luxury brand. Buick is middle to middle upper. If you try put Buick in Lexus area come on. It is against Acura, Mercury in the US as there is no Mercury in Canada anymore. Toyotas etc. Offering the manual gives choice against Legacy, Camry,etc might I add that they are 4’s and do quite well here my Impreza wagon is a 4 and the wife’s CRV is a 4 and both are loaded and manuals and are nice to drive. Heck we have a loaded version of the Civic up here with Acura badges. Americans complain about 3 dollars a gallon wait till it ever hits about 6 dollars like it did up here last summer. Build manual transmission’s some 4’s even some diesels. But stop this 6 with auto thing no one wants it. But we still want comfort and fun. Also Gm I agree needs to know your branding. Cadillac luxury, Buick middle class, Pontiac performance ( Camaro should be a Firebird) and Chevrolet low income, second car, Police taxi business. that kind of market. oh and Saturn good call go against the imports 1 problem should have Opel badges as no one know what a Saturn is anymore.
Sheth,
The Saab 9-3 is hardly what I consider the IN style right now. And that is what I think we are talking about. Options, styling and features that people like and are popular.
In all honesty I think the line between sports car, muscle car and luxury car have been blurred. I see no reason to try to fit any car in that mold anymore. I happen to really like sports cars, but I need a two seater and I like the features and comfort of a luxury car. I’m not about to spend money to buy one of each. Many others probably feel the same way. Why not combine them? This is what A LOT of car makers have done. BMW is probably the first I can think of. To me a BMW used to be a Buick that was crossed with a Corvette. A bit of everything.
I see no reason to confine things to the mold. For that matter I don’t think people NEED manuals. I think people want autos but wish they had Manuals. I for one love the BMW sequential gear box with the option of auto shifting. What if you could have both a manual and an Auto? This is what I suggested to GM in a letter I wrote to Bob Lutz. The response was basically “we aren’t interested”, “what we have is great now… you just need to drive it”. Of course the truth is I “DID” drive it and it could be better. If that weren’t the case I wouldn’t have spent the effort to contact GM regarding the idea.
I’m educated enough in engineering to know that a V6 Turbo doesn’t necessarily mean better gas mileage (same goes for a 4 cylinder). But what fun a turbo car is. And fun is what we are talking about. If you were to interview the average enthusiast buyer and tell them “What if we can give you the power of a V8 with the fuel economy of a 4 cylinder” I’ll bet everyone of them would say sure. And thats what turbos CAN do.
The 335i has twin turbos makes 330 HP and 300 ftlbs at 1400 RPM to 5000 RPM. Compare that to the Caddy 304 HP @6400 and 273 ftlbs @5200 (which GM doesn’t give the RPM ratings for).
Are the two equal for similar fuel mileage?
We’re not taking ONLY fuel mileage we’re talking fun to drive. The CTS may be fun to drive but how much fun would it be with a twin turbo V6 with AWD pumping out 400 HP?
Anyway all that aside. You are right they don’t offer a compact luxury sedan. I think it is a key market. The Acura TL is in that size range I think as are a few others. I thought the Opel Insignia could be but perhaps I’m wrong. I think GM is missing out. There is no smaller car from GM that combines Luxury, Looks, Performance, Handling and Comfort.
I’m not going to offer proof that GM’s luxury cars are less efficient then their competitors. I merely pointed out that people don’t buy off of pure logic. There are people out there who want a car that gets 30 or 32 MPG with similar or the same specs as the Buick. Some of these people think that 4 cylinders get better mileage. Therefore they will NOT buy a Buick or Caddy simply for that reason. However right or wrong that is. That is reality. Now to address that I suggested the 260 HP Solstice turbo 4, but someone posted that the Buick weighs 3900 lbs and requires a V6 to move it…. which I know isn’t really true. That 260 HP solstice engine would be fine for the buyers that insist on the 4 cylinders….
BUT this brings up a good point. Why is the Buick 3900 lbs anyway?
You are right the CTS does get similar if not better mileage to the 135. But you are neglecting the people part of the equation. Some people want a smaller car and they want a high quality interior and engine package. GM hasn’t addressed these buyers yet. Which apparently there were enough of for BMW to offer the 1 series. Speaking of small cars what about the supercharged mini cooper. There is a high quality compact that I’d say borders on luxury sport.
Sure I agree Manuals are expensive to put in cars. But people still drive them. If they are that expensive to produce though… maybe Bob should look into appealing to the Manual drivers with Autos… something that can fairly simply be done. Then GM could make only Autos and still sell them to people who want Manuals.
Why would Acura only offer the manual on their AWD car? That seems backward to what everyone else does. Could that be based on demand or their marketing department’s bright idea? I have a suspicion people buy AWD because its fun and therefore want a Manual (take note Buick and Caddillac).
Even if the TSX isn’t a competitor for the LaCrosse. What does GM have that is? In all seriousness Gerry is asking buying questions. And GM is responding by saying “we don’t really need your business” What kind of message does this put out about GM? Gerry tells all his friends that he wanted a GM but only Acura had the car for him… then he tells his friends how great they are and before you know it a few of Gerry’s friends drive Acuras….. get the point ?… its not about markets its about GM making products we want and buy and continuing to be the superpower of the Auto world rather then an extinct dinosaur unable to change.
Can you unequivocally say manuals are on the way out? In terms of ICEs manuals are the most efficient way to put power to the road short of electric drive and CVTs both of which have some huge customer perception draw backs. Manuals have no pumps to run to lose efficiency and are directly coupled to the engine.
I’m not sure how you can say the Lacrosse isn’t Spory? With 280 HP a nice, modern interior its both sporty and luxurious. I say its on par with the CTS only with a more curvaceous body.
I honestly think its more a problem of putting a manual in a front drive car that big and making it reliable with high HP. GM typically controls shifts to ease on drivetrain wear.
I could have sworn the MKZ has a manual option.
Where does Acura fit into your analysis? They have a sporty, arguably luxury car with a manual and about the same HP as the Buick….What is GM’s solution to that?
What differentiates the Average Lexus buyer from the average Infiniti, Acura, BMW, MB, Audi buyer? Sorry I don’t think there’s much differnce. And many of them want either Luxury or sport or both Sport and Luxury (Acura TL S, M series from BMW and Infiniti and the S series from Audi)…
Well as long as GM has the attitude that younger people dont’ have money to spend on Luxury or sport luxury cars I suppose they will go to the likes of BMW, Audi, VW, etc… who realize that younger people are an important Luxury/Luxury Sport market.
BTW I’d never compare a Lincoln to a Lexus… Lexus has surpassed Lincoln a LONG time AGO…. And until now left GM in the dust too.
Apperently Buick has the attention of people buying Lexus, Infiniti and BMW and Acura as well. It has nothing to do with the name… everything to do with exterior and interior looks. The new Buick looks like a sport luxury car. It looks almost like it was penned by Bangle or one of the competitors stylists. It only makes sense that those buyers would be considering it as their next (insert competitor’s brand here). But when they find out its missing the guts of what they want they will go elsewhere. Its up to GM to prove otherwise.
BTW I hardly consider the G8 as a Luxury Sport car. But again the CTS, CTS-V, G8 and now the Buick LaCrosse are ALL 3800 lbs or more!!! Where is that kind of style, design and effort on lighter cars?
The Lacrosse (and what ever they call the Opel Insignia in the US) are both sports sedan material if GM swings them this way sales could be huge.
What will GM do?
Sheth wrote:
“Until then I think Buick managers have enough sense to know there is little demand for a manual in a large, FWD luxury car.”
First off, this is hardly a “large” car. It is mid size at best. It has the potential to be a midsize sport sedan should the powers to be a Buick decide to make it so. But, alas, you are probably right. The Buick managers that will make the decision not to offer a sport sedan are the same people that brought us such inspired product as the current Buick LaCrosse, and the Buick Lucerne. Those cars weren’t flying off the lots even when the market was booming, and Mr. Wagoner was walking around with his 30% button.
Nate,
Not sure how old you are, but nothing GM produced after 1976 was a “huge” car. The full-sized Eldorado hung on through 1978. The latest big car was the the 1993-96 Fleetwood, but even that was not as boat-like as my ‘76 Coupe de Ville with a 500 cid V-8. The Fleetwood Brougham was even bigger. The definition of “huge” is obviously relative.
Sheth,
Its not that people think Buick is gunning for BMW its just the simple fact that BMW competes with Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, Audi, and MB. The simple truth is that GM (Buick) has created a car that looks to be competitive with Lexus and Infiniti in the styling department. It only seems logical that because of the nice lines and curves of the Buick that people would compare it to the above mentioned vehicles. GM should take this as a hint though. Maybe they should compare it to BMW and other sport sedans. I’ll bet they could get some market share if they execute it right. As I’ve said before I’d buy a Buick… and certainly a Buick that is sport sedan competitive.
Keep in mind not to long ago BMW USA had 4 cylinders… and NOW they are the first with 34+ MPG diesels in their sedans. Making them quite interesting to people like me.
Again GM take note. Buick + EcoTech Turbo =sales OR Buick + Turbo Diesel = sales… add in a better shift controller and programming OR a true manual or an SMG like transmission and GM just got into a whole new market with this Buick. All I see are possibilities for GM. I hope they see the same. With the 4 cylinder GM could also aim squarely at the Toyota crowd AND people who want a little nicer interior then the regular Toyota. I can only hope the new Malibu is based on the Opel Insignia chassis and interior….. If GM does for the Insignia what they did for this Buick and adds the right engine combinations… they might have a real nice comeback. But they have to do it right… none of this oops we added 500 lbs to a midsized car stuff. I’d be happy with the size of an Insignia I think even with a 4 cylinder.
If the Buick were a true RWD it’d be even more interesting from a sport sedan point of view. The transmission could be the same one used in the G8 and CTS and they’d have the AWD option too. All they’d have to really do is cut a few hundred pounds off the Buick and outfit it with another few engine options and it could be a BMW eater along with with the CTS. Both cars though are a bit heavy.
Dale,
I think in today’s market there is a small almost unnoticeable difference between Luxury and Sport Sedan. Meaning that I don’t quite think of Cadillac as Luxury right now… in fact I never did really. My dad and grandfather have owned Buicks and all of them I can remember were quite luxurious. I always associated a nice seat and good ride with a Buick. Today however I think there are more people wanting sport luxury then pure luxury. I think most of today’s brands are aimed that way.
For example a 3 series BMW is a Sport Luxury car, while a 5 or 7 series is something I’d consider Luxury.
I think the Buick design can go both ways. Eqiup it with a nice soft Buick ride and it’s a Luxury car. Equip it with a bit firmer, sportier suspension and its a Sport Luxury car. Cadillac is the same way. The big difference I see is the styling. Buick is Sleek and sexy, while Cadillac is Modern and aggressive (but still good looking).
I think the Buick will effectively compete with the high end Toyota and low end Lexus. The Malibu competes on the low end (but will need an update to continue to do so).
I think there are still younger people (and older people) who still enjoy the thrill of shifting through the gears the old fashion way (with a clutch and gear shifter). I think GM forgets this.
Though many people buy a car for all around use. I find even myself preferring Auto for city driving. But right now I can’t have a manual AND an auto. So I end up driving auto wishing I had a manual those few times I find a back road thats fun. I see absolutely no reason GM can’t do both. I see no reason they can’t offer a manual either besides their afraid to.
I don’t see any reason not to build a 6 speed manual or 6 speed auto. There are good reasons for each. Though I think 4 cylinders are perfectly acceptable even in a car as heavy as the Buick.
The Buick to me is a luxury car. The only difference between Buick and Caddy in my mind are the price tags and the quality. I always thought Buicks were nicer. But there isn’t any reason that Buick can’t build a nice Sedan like the LaCrosse and aim it at young and old. For the young equip it with a Turbo 4 or 6 cylinder and manual transmission with a tight sporty suspension. And for the Old equip it with the classic Buick Yacht Suspension…. heck if GM uses their Magnetic suspension they can probably do both.
I think one thing that is hurting them is not offering the options they could. There are people like me who aren’t a big fan of Pontiac styling yet still want the nice looks of a Caddy or Buick.
Please stop trying to pigeon hole each GM brand. If anything drop Pontiac and Chevy. They are redundant. Each of GM’s cars should offer a bit of everything. A bit of sport, luxury and even a simple car. The fact that GM puts all the performance options on Pontiac and few on any of their other cars hurts them in my opinion.
A year ago I almost bought a Saturn Aura but it wasn’t available with the Manual like the G6 was. And I didn’t like the G6 that much…SO I didn’t buy anything. If GM had offered more options in their lineup maybe I could have ordered a car to my liking.
I agree that the Opel brand would sell here if it was marketed as the European GM brand (they should get rid of Saab though).
Gerry,
I consider the G8, CTS and LaCrosse large cars by today’s standards. They weight almost 500 lbs more then some of their competition. But thats not TOO bad. Of course if I look back to things like the 1972 Chrysler Newport and the 1968 Buicks.. then even the CTS is a small car. But if you look at the market a lot of new cars are sub 3700 lbs. And I think thats important because people do look at the size, weight, engine size etc…
As memory serves the 1972 Chrysler Newport could comfortably seat 8 (though we never tried it). It was a HUGE car. One of my friends had one for a short time and was actually able to fit a full 3 person sofa in the trunk (with the lid up). I doubt many people need that kind of space today.
So I’d consider readjusting your image of large car. The DTS is a large car to me. So is the 5 and 7 series BMW. Many of them are hard to park in quite a few parking lots around here. The CTS, and LaCrosse are on the big side of mid sized cars… but still a bit tougher to park then I’d care for, but still not to bad.
I agree 100% that Buick managers need to try something new. Offer a Buick to the sub 30 crowd as an alternative to Acura, Lexus and Infiniti or BMW/Audi MB. The styling is there just gotta touch up a few details to make the car 100% there.
kgm777,
I can’t help buy smile as you say that. Those were some neat cars (some of them I see in junkyards now and am amazed at what they crammed into them).
Of course huge is relative. But consider a lot of people seem to like Camry sized cars and consider the new Avalon too big. I think the LaCrosse is fine probably about the size of an Avalon… but they need a Camry sized car too with the Buick interior… or something to compete with Audi.
Heck even the new Subaru’s are looking pretty nice and offer AWD….. GM needs smaller high end cars. Thats my opinion.
“While you chose to make fun of the buyers who like Buicks the reality is their demographics arent that different from the average Lexus buyer.”
Sheth,
Whose making fun of Buick buyers and drivers? The simple fact is that most of the Buick owners I know are real estate agents, stock brokers, small business people and they belong to Rotary. Stating a fact isn’t the same as mocking. But I think few can deny that Buick does have a stodgy image. I’m sure even GM’s marketeers are aware of that.
For grins, I just Googled “buick” and “stodgy.” Got over 12,000 hits. I also looked up the definition of “stodgy.” Found it means dull and unimaginative. Sounds like LaCrosse to me despite its “signature waterfall grill” and “sweep spear” body-side styling. (”Sweep spear” ~ now that sounds like a real marketing buzz word. Can’t find an exact definition for “sweep spear” but it’s apparently a design element GM borrowed from their 1950’s-era Buicks. )
“There is no need for Buick to be making sports sedans…”
Who said anything about Buick making sport sedans? The issue was why you can’t buy a LaCrosse with a manual transmission. There are other reasons people might want a manual ~ the foremost two being, 1. Manuals are more efficient, and, 2. They let the driver actually be in control of the car.
It better not have a pushrod V8. It is a good looking car, but like most modern buicks and pontiacs it will fail.
The Genesis will most likely be superior and offer a more modern V8.
Nate:
Buick is not going down the sports sedan road anytime soon. That has not been their focus in the past and its not going to be in the future. I suggest you accept that fact and move on. GM has RWD performance cars from other brands. Lexus may compete with BMW on price but Lexus generally has a different aim than BMW and it shows in the way its vehicles drive. Lexus is not aimed at the enthusiast driver and that has served them well in terms of sales success.
You continue to show a lack of understanding about current product and the global auto industry. cars like the TSX and 135i are sold here simply because they exist in Europe. Neither car is a volume seller but their parent companies have excess capacity in Euro and feel there is a niche market for those cars here. Those vehicles were not developed for the US market. You also continue to ignore the fact that manuals are not popular in larger cars. BMW is the only player that offers manuals in the majority of its models in the US market. You will not find a manual on an M35, E class, A6, STS, 7 series, S class, XF etc. Why? Very little demand. In the US market manuals are typically combined with small cars and engines. They rarely coupled with V6 or V8 engines and they are rarely offered on pricey vehicles. That is the reality of the market. You cannot get mad at GM for not offering a manual in a large luxury sedan when none of its competitors offer one. That is just silly. Same apples to four cylinder engines. Let me know when you find a Lexus ES or MKZ with a four cylinder under the hood. Once a car gets to a certain level of mass it is pointless to offer a four cylinder. Not only would performance suffer, the mileage would suffer because the engine would struggle to move the car. Dropping an I-4 into a heavy luxury car is not a guarantee of great mileage. In Toyota’s Venza the I-4 only manages about 2mpg better fuel economy than the much more powerful V6 because the Venza is so heavy.
As for vehicle weight you need to remember that crash standards keep increasing and buyers keep demanding more and more features. The Genesis weighs about 3800-4000lbs just like the G8. The A4 weighs about 3800ls, although AWD is part of that. The new Lexus RX has gained about 400lbs over the 2009 model and Lexus claims that is due to increased crashworthiness.
Gerry,
As I said, Pontiac and Cadillac have vehicles that meet your criteria. It would be stupid of GM to turn Buick into a division stocked with sports sedans when GM is trying to sell G8s and CTS’. Sorry, but I would not classify any of your ideas as superior to what GM management has done over the past few years. Buick is not fore enthusiast drivers and it never will be. Buick’s aim is OK, they just need better products and the Lacrosse moves them in that direction. Also the Lacrosse is a large car. The Accord is large by EPA standards and is 194″ long. The new Mazda 6 is about the same size. The Lacrosse is 197″ long which surpasses all but a handful of large FWD cars on the market. The 300 and Avalon are shorter. Most midsize FWD cars such as the Malibu and Camry are about 190″ long and 71″-72″ wide. As for the Lucerne, it was sold about as well as the Toyota Avalon. Large car sales in the US have been trending down as more people flock to crossovers.
“You cannot get mad at GM for not offering a manual in a large luxury sedan when none of its competitors offer one.”
Who is getting mad? All I can say is that if it doesn’t have manual, I won’t be buying one. It’s a truth universally acknowledged that those who drive cars with manual transmissions are better and more conscientious drivers.
If GM doesn’t want to market Buick to better drivers, that’s their business ~ a mistake in my opinion, but their business.
Just an observation on auto size and how perceptions have changed: The current DTS is about the same size as the 1976-79 Seville which was based on the Chevy Nova and considered a revolutionary car for Cadillac (but the MSRP was significantly higher than the other larger Cadillacs). Of course, the badge-engineered Cimarron (based on the Cavalier) was a compact, but would probably be considered a mid-sized car today, but we shouldn’t go there.
Sheth,
I can only guess you work for GM and have information I don’t…. BUT… I think its foolish for GM to not look at a Sport Sedan version of Buick. There is a lot of potential there if they stop being stubborn.
So you are telling me a Lexus
Apperently you and GM have a superior understanding? Sorry to say but GM wouldn’t be trying to recreate its image if it had as good an understanding as you claim. You forget one key thing. I am ONE of GM’s potential customers it is their job to figure out what I want to buy so that they can get my money rather then Toyota or VW or Audi etc…
To be honest the CTS is a nice car but it doesn’t quite fit my personality. Sure the CTS is a RWD sports car but its HUGE. There ARE people out there that want smaller sports cars or even luxury sedans. What I find foolish is when GM has a product with potential they force it into a cubby hole and won’t let it grow and prosper. Buick has this potential. Buick offers something no other brand has… sleek styling with a super nice interior. In fact I think some of Buick’s interiors have been better then most other brands. But why not offer it in a smaller car? Or offer it to younger people? Again… GM might have been gunning for Lexus, but the car they have in the LaCrosse and Insignia can gun for pretty much every major player in the luxury and sport sedan segment. RWD or not…
If GM is listening I beg them to seriously consider what I and other people say. We are some of your customers. Why not listen?
If people like you (and possible GM if thats who you work for) continue to be foolish and stubborn you will find GM falling short on sales once more and in an even more dire situation. All the marketing and slick talk by GM leaders isn’t going to work on people. People such as myself with a technical background grounded a great deal in reality can see right through it.
On the other hand a bit of smart marketing and salesman ship is needed sometime. IF 4 cylinder small to mid size high feature sedans are selling for Toyota and other companies why not offer them? Drop a Turbo Ecotech into the LaCrosse and see how it sells. Put a sport tuned suspension in it for younger buyers see if they buy… How much above the price of an Acura is the new Buick anyway? (is it priced at 35K or 45K). Last I looked that didn’t stop people in their mid 20’s from buying Acuras and other cars.
Can you conclusively say that manuals aren’t popular? GM shouldn’t be selling only to what is popular. Thats how they got here in the first place. They left to many niche markets go and their competitors started to expand them to the point they are at now. IF GM has such a great global platform base why not offer smaller cars with high end features… Where are all the fun cars at?
I doubt its a matter of demand. I have stronger suspicion that its engineering related. The G6 is a good example. Do you have any idea how hard it is to design a 6 speed to fit the G6 that will stand up to the abuse of a 240 HP engine in the hands of a bad driver? GM has to warranty these things.
Now RWD I have no idea on. But GM could easily do it. But who really buys STS’s? Last I looked mostly old people.
Maybe I can’t get mad at GM for not offering a Manual because its competitors do.. but how can GM be competitive if it doesn’t have the fortitude to try new things that its competitors AREN’T doing? GM is WAY to conservative with some of its cars. And to stubborn with a lot more. It is just foolishnes to be that way.
Are the Lexus ES or MKZs RWD?
I don’t see how you can say performance would suffer and mileage would suffer with a 4 cylinder turbo under the hood. Show me some kind of data. Last time I saw a dyno sheet on the Cobalt engine it had more torque on more parts of the RPM band then the 3.0 V6 in the LaCrosse. I’m just not buying it. You haven’t supplied me with enough technical basis for it. Back it up with graphs of BSFC vs HP or Torque or RPM back it up with drag coefficiencts and HP requirement graphs at various speeds…
As to the Toyota Venza… you just hit the nail on the head. This isn’t ALL about technical specs and engineering. Its about people buying the cars. If people THINK 4 cytlinders get better mileage and they see 2 MPG better… say the difference between 28 and 30 on the window sticker it might actually make them buy the car. I have a friend that wouldn’t buy a car because it only got 26, yet 28 he would go for. And to him 0-60 wasn’t to big a deal, as long as he could merge in traffic.
Not everyone is like the magazine reviewers or even me for that matter. Some people would rather have fuel efficiency then power or acceleration. Some people look for small engines over larger ones. Why not appeal to them. Apparently enough people buy the Acura TSX that they keep updating it…. why is that? Its only a small 4 cylinder?
Ok Crashworthiness is a good reason… but what does that say about other cars that don’t weight that much.
My point before was that the difference in weight of the LaCross vs Insignia had to have come from more then just a few extra sheet inches for structure, a driveshaft, exhaust, brake lines and wiring… it must have been from other vehicle changes. Because I doubt the bare LaCrosse chassis is more then 50-150 lbs heavier then the Insignia.
What about those of us who really don’t care for the G8 or CTS? Should we go to BMW, Acura, Audi, Lexus, Infiniti or MB? Because they offer what we want. Thats a good way to lose sales. Just offer some other options on your G8, CTS and Buick. For example I’d buy a G8 if it was AWD. OR I’d buy any one of the three if it was AWD WITH a turbo. I’d buy the CTS4 if it had a manual. Again do they offer any of these things?
Perhaps it is stupid GM is trying to sell G8s… Different crowd I suppose. Still thats no reason not to make the Buick into a sports sedan. Your logic makes no sense to me. Is the G8 a car with a luxurious interior? I don’t think so. The CTS maybe but not everyone likes the lines of the CTS or the G8. Buick is just one more way to catch a different niche if GM is mart enough to use it that way.
Who are you to say what Buick’s aim is or to judge whether OUR (us the customer) am is any better or worse. We ARE GM’s customers it’d be foolish to maintain your attitude. How hard is it really to offer a few options that make the Buick LaCrosse a luxury sport car? How hard is it to raid the parts bins to offer different suspension and a few sporty engine options… like a turbo Ecotech 2.0 (220 HP 250 ftlbs)and a turbo 2.8 (250 HP and 260 Ftlbs 290 with overboost). Offer them in an AWD version… with the nice interior and stiffer suspension and GM could sell to the Audi and Acura crowd. In all honesty how hard would this be to do? How much would it really cost? The Engines are already developed AND US certified. Wouldn’t increasing the number produced decrease their unit cost and offset the development costs in long term production quantities?
If large car sales have been trending down… why would GM have so many of them in their lineup… there’s the STS, CTS, LaCrosse, G8, Impala (arguable by some)… Why not reduce that number and offer them with various options that covers the various markets. For instance a CTS and LaCrosse could probably handle everything. What need is there for a G8 or STS?
Your logic doesn’t make sense to me. Sorry not trying to be harsh it just doesn’t make sense.
All I, and probably other customers are saying is that we’re asking for GM to sell us a car that we want. Yet GM seems to be saying we don’t want your business because it is to much hassle. That to me is a bad way to run a business.
Nigel Gamecock,
I happen to think the NEW LaCrosse looks nice. It doesn’t stand out or scream for attention. its also not super boring. It somewhere in between. Stylish but yet not over done. I like that. It makes me say wow I like that. A huge improvement over the Buicks of the past.
I agree with you manuals are about more then sport. They are about driver experience and feel, fuel mileage and overall enjoyment of the driving process.
How about 4 cylinders what is your take on that?
Herry,
The LaCrosse doesn’t have a pushrod V8… it has a high tech V6 with Dual Overhead Cams, Variable Valve timing and Direct Fuel Injection. Quite modern actually.
Even so I’m not sure what you have against pushrod V8s. They have proven to be quite competitive in the world of racing (and I’m not just talking Nascar). Pushrod V8s offer great specifications considering their cost weight and complexity.
Feel free to comment.
Nate:
1. I live in Philadelphia and do not work for GM
2. GM sells more vehicles in the US than Toyota or Honda or Nissan or BMW or Audi or MB so your premise that GM doesn’t know how to appeal to customers in this market is simply foolish. Most of the vehicles you are mentioning are niche models that are outsold by numerous GM models.
3. I think anyone who reads your comments here is painfully aware that GM will never be able to satisfy your needs and you might be better off buying from another manufacturer
4. Turbo engines require premium and have characteristics than many luxury buyers may not like. Turbo engines tend to have power surges when the boost comes on and this character seems to fit with sporty cars moreso than conventional luxury cars. In addition, I am guessing than the 3L is more affordable to make than the 2L four cylinder. Many luxury customers are simply not willing to buy a car with a four cylinder which is one reason why so few are offered in luxury vehicles in the US. Almost all the four cylinder engines that used to be offered in European models have been phased out and replaced by small six cylinder engines.
5. Sporty sedans will be sold through Pontiac and Cadillac primarily. That isnt going to change regardless of how many times you post. Buick is about quiet luxury and it always has been. If you want a sports sedan other options are available from GM.
“I am ONE of GM’s potential customers it is their job to figure out what I want to buy so that they can get my money rather then Toyota or VW or Audi etc… ”
Please tell me what turbocharged V6 equipped sedans with manual transmissions are sold by those manufacturers. Toyota does not offer ONE turbocharged car in its lineup. Toyota does not offer manuals with any V6 engines. Lexus offers a manual on ONE engine in ONE model. Audi does not sell turbo V6s anymore and their vehicles with V6 engines come with CVTs or automatics.
Nate:
“If large car sales have been trending down… why would GM have so many of them in their lineup… there’s the STS, CTS, LaCrosse, G8, Impala (arguable by some)… Why not reduce that number and offer them with various options that covers the various markets. For instance a CTS and LaCrosse could probably handle everything. What need is there for a G8 or STS?”
CTS, STS and current Lacrosse are EPA midsize. Lucerne, DTS, G8 and Impala are full size. The Impala is on a much lower price level than the Lucerne or DTS. The G8 is RWD and thus does not compete with the other cars you mentioned. DTS and Lucerne offer some overlap.
“Can you conclusively say that manuals aren’t popular? GM shouldn’t be selling only to what is popular. Thats how they got here in the first place. They left to many niche markets go and their competitors started to expand them to the point they are at now. IF GM has such a great global platform base why not offer smaller cars with high end features… Where are all the fun cars at?”
Yes, I can say with certainty than manuals are not popular at all in the US. Actually GM has lost share due to competitors going after the high volume markets such as pickups, midsize cars, minivans, crossovers/SUVs, etc. Niche cars have done little to hurt GM’s position.
Where are the fun cars? Cobalt SS, HHR SS, Vette, Camaro, CTS, Solstice/Sky, G8 GT/GXP. The fun cars are there. Where are the fun cars at Toyota and VW? You have a lot of praise for their products and keep “threatening” to buy from them but you dont mention specific products that they sell that excite you.
The Cruze will offer more high end features than the Cobalt. It will be here in 2010.
GM’s biggest problems are it’s own customers biggest problem. They tell us we don’t want a 4 cyl well I might want one. They tell us that no one wants a manual I might want one and by the way a manual does not make a car a sports sedan. The wife’s manual 06 CRV is no sports sedan. People might like it ,my sister in law has a manual Mazda Tribute same thing. This Buick Allure ( Lacrosse) is a beautiful car I would look at one if it came in a manual. It’s a good size priced in high 20,000’s low 30,000’s here in Canada P.S. a CTS can reach well over $50,000 large and a G8 isn’t much cheaper. People might just like manual’s and there is a list of people who sound like they love the look of this car and wouldn’t go near it with a ten foot poll because of the auto. Yet other people are upset at even the suggestion of a manual. I will tell you what I am up set about, bailing out an automaker that can’t sell mid 3.0 litre sedan’s with auto’s that is what upsets me when the import’s are selling coupe’s and sedan body styles, Auto’s and manual’s mid 2.0 litre 4 cyl’s and offer 6’s. They have what people want. Keep building 6 cyl , Allures (Lacrosse) , Impala’s etc. you know what will happen you will ask for more money in a couple of years. Because people will buy Camry’s, Accord’s, Altima’s, BMW 3’s, etc because they can buy it in any flavor they like. This car is a start you have our attention build it right from the start in many flavors.
The best-looking Buick in years. Too bad it’s stuck with a W-Body hand-me-down name (Lacrosse). Invicta would’ve been perfect. Oh, well. I’ll keep buying used H-Body/G-Body Park Avenues………………………….
All –
Great to read so many positive comments about the stereo system (we call it “Infotainment” at GM) in the Cadillac CTS. Being part of the team responsible for this area of GM’s vehicles – its nice to see it is as important to customers as it is to us. We like the “time shifting” feature in the CTS radio too – I always hated to miss the end of a news story or talk radio program while taking a phone call!
Have no fear – the navigation option in the new Lacrosse builds nicely on the system in the CTS.
We should start a forum dedicated to radio systems – I’d love to hear more. For example – what would you expect a WiFi/iTunes extension of the Cadillac CTS system to do?
Thanks again for the positive comments on the CTS – you just made my day.
James
Manager – GM Infotainment
I love this car. My wife makes comments about Buicks being grandpa cars. Not this Buick! The exterior is beautiful. The interior is beautiful. Reading the list of options and high-tech goodies makes my head spin. The one issue I have is that you can only get AWD w/the 3.0L motor in the CXL mid-level trim. I don’t understand why it’s not available in the CXS high level trim w/the 3.6L. Also, I agree w/the first poster that there should be a Super with a 5.3L V8 or a super-charged or turbo 3.6L (my preference though is the V8) and it’s gotta be available w/AWD.
Sheth,
GM may sell more then each of them but not the total. And that is what is hurting GM. The truth is niche models and brands combine to outsell GM. If this weren’t the case GM wouldn’t have needed an 18 billion loanout. Additionally GM is missing the niche market customers which it could easily appeal to.
GM can satisfy my auto buying needs. They just choose not to. They have all the hardware they just haevn’t figure out how to package it right to get MORE customers.
Turbo engines do not require premium fuel… or more correctly there is no reason they need to require premium fuel. They can be run on regular just like any other engine. In fact, the new High Value V6s run a nearly 11:1 compression ratio that 5 years ago would have required racing fuel. Pretty neat…. there is no reason a turbo engine can’t run on regular fuel as well. Your argument has no technical basis. The truth is that there are numerous technical ways GM Could run regular fuel in turbo engines. One such way is to turn the boost back when regular fuel and or knock is detected. It may reduce the power but chances are a customer worried about fuel price isn’t worried as much about power. The opposite is also true. Additionally there are fuels out there and other options available that GM could use to further justify a turbo.
Again your argument on premium fuels is not technically correct.
Additionally turbo engines do not have to have power surges. Turbos available on the market can be tailored to have or not have power surges depending on the feel the designer is going for.
A well designed turbo system is just as well at home on a sports car as a luxury sedan. (Incidentally do you consider the VW passat a sports car? Because it has a turbo and I don’t hear people complain about that).
In fact a bit of turbo power surge could add a bit of extra fun to the LaCrosse.
4 cylinders will always be cheaper to make unless some new V6 technology comes out (which is also probably applicable to 4 cylinders). It may be true that a turbo 4 is as much or more then a 6. But many people would agree the benefits are worth it.
I don’t see european cars with turbos being phased out. The Opel Insignia has ones. And if you are refering to US cars… there are still a few that do. Audi still makes turbo cars, BMW makes turbo 6s, Subaru has turbo 4s, so does Mitsubishi… even Ford has some new ones on their way out.
Again I don’t see where your point is valid.
I don’t see any good reason to limit sporty sedans to Pontiac and Cadillac. Some people don’t like their styling or options. Why not offer some sport in the Buick?
Thats like saying Chevy is GM’s cheap car don’t put power windows in it.
I see no reason GM shouldn’t offer what its customers like and want. The Buick is a car that will appeal to a lot of people that other GM brands may not. I see no reason to hinder its sales buy being so stubborn as to not offer it with other optional engines and other options.
BMW offers a 6 cylinder with both a turbo and a manual transmission.
We aren’t ONLY Comparing Toyotas We’re comparing everything else GM competes against. Every brand. Some of which do have turbos and manuals… not necessarily 6 cylinders…
The cars you mention are pretty big. Not much smaller then the EPA full size class.
So if the Impala offers a much lower price then the Lucerene or DTS what is in between them?
I don’t see how manuals cause lost sales.
Many people I know would rather a manual for some very good reason. One of which is personal presence.
But GM dealers stock the “safe sure sale” (automatics) and very rarely stock Manuals. Yet there IS a market for Manuals. And at this point GM can’t afford to turn customers away for something as petty as no offering a manual.
Where are the fun cars that are built decently and have nice interiors? That leaves what CTS, Vette, and maybe the G8 right now that I can buy?
As to products that excite me:
VW: Anything with a TDI, the Jetta, the Rabbit
Toyota: The Yaris (looks cool), Camry, Solara (available with a Manual),
Audi (VW): A4, A3, A6, S4, S3, S6… TT
BMW: 335d, 335i, M5,
Acura: TL AWD,
Infiniti G37,
Subaru WRX,
Most of them dont’ quite have the interior I’m looking for but other then that are great luxury and fun cars to drive.
Its a shame GM has the interior and exterior on the Buick they just don’t seem to have all the fun in there that they could put in.
Dale,
I couldn’t agree more. There are times I hear other GM customers regurgitating the stale, sour thoughts I’ve heard from GM and so many of its fans for so long. Almost to the point I’d not want to buy one. In fact I’m pretty much to that point now. It is a shame their products have come so far and are so close but yet they aren’t there yet.
There are plenty of people who want Manuals because they are fun, more reliable and most times get better fuel mileage. I’m not sure where GM got this idea no one wants them aside from GM wanting to pump out autos as fast as they can.
I’d look at the Buick seriously if it had a turbo V6 and AWD… a manual would be an added bonus.
The Buick is a great looking car and has a nice interior and the capability to be a car that appeals to a lot of younger buyers if they market it right. That means they’ll be new Buick fans…
I agree there are plenty of imports selling 4 cylinders in mid size sedans I don’t know why GM doesn’t offer them…..
Douglas,
I like the Allure name better. Allure sounds seductive and sexy…Couldn’t agree with you more though on the rest of what you said.
James,
I’m glad to hear a GM manager pop up on the list and let us know they are listening. (that made my day).
I think the CTS system is a great thing for Caddy and GM. I just wish it was offered in more cars. It would be the kind of thing that could make or break a sale with younger generations…
I have often looked at cars like the Malibu and G6 and said… not bad… to bad they don’t have a nice Nav option. I don’t understand why its taken GM so long to pickup on this… for that matter to even offer USB support for iPod direct connections…
I think a forum for radios would be good. While you are at it get the engine and drivetrain manager on here and lets start a forum for that.
Feel free to grab my e-mail address off my post and drop me a line I’d love to comment on my thoughts on a wifi/iTunes extension for the CTS system.
I think GM really hit a good recipe on the Buick and Caddy. Its offered with MOST of the features (excluding the ones I’ve posted about above) that customers want. If GM can keep that mix going on their other cars it’ll be huge.
“We like the “time shifting” feature in the CTS radio too – I always hated to miss the end of a news story or talk radio program while taking a phone call!”
James, James … James,
Please don’t tell us you use a cell phone while driving.
Mike,
I agree with you on the trim level and AWD issue. As for engines… I’ve been hoping for a turbo version… I was hoping for a 2.8 or 3.0L turbo.
They fix that and the lack of a MP3 hard drive and a few other things and it’d be a total winner.
The 2010 Lacrosse is what a Buick should be. I haven’t seen a Buick sedan this attractive since the Regal of a decade before. After seeing this and seeing the Opel, I am wondering what will become of the Aura? In my opinion, there is plenty of room for a Lacrosse/Regal and an Aura.
With Obama looking to raise MPG in 2011, will you consider putting in the once planned two liter turbo engine with 250 HP?
even though the Lacrosse will NEVER please Nate since its not a VW product I saw the car at the Philly auto show and it looked good. The display model was a CXL AWD with wheels I have not seen in any of the press pictures. The AWD model rides higher (as all AWD cars do) which I dont like but overall the car was sharp, especially the interior. I will be glad when I can get inside and check out the interior in detail.
Sheth,
It has nothing to do with not being a VW product. This is a blog site, a place to voice opinions. I never said the LaCrosse isn’t something I’d want to buy. I just said if they changed a few things on it would be a bit more appealing. It is frustrating though to see such an incredible job by GM but then see that they don’t follow up on customer suggestions.
As I said once before… if people are buying 4 cylinders because that for some reason have this perception that 4 cylinders are more efficient then a tuned 6… then offer the engine in the car and sell more units. I don’t understand the logic of not doing that. If people want big cars with small engines why not take a great product and market it to that little niche and start to spread the GM word that “wow GM makes a nice car and they offer it with the engine I want”.
I’m not talking about reinventing the wheel… just changing the tires to what people want.
As for me Sheth, I’m looking at either a CTS or waiting to hear the price on the 3.0L AWD Buick. I may just drop a turbo on it myself and get exactly what I want….. a mid-large sized AWD sedan made by GM with 350-400 HP and a turbo.
The only sad thing is that it doesn’t appear to be shipping with the A/C seats and premium options on the AWD model as well as a lack of radio recording… but oh well its a damn fine car I just wish it could be ordered to the mid 20’s crowd such as myself.
Nate:
People dont want large cars with small engines. If that isnt the case please list a few cars similar in size and weight to the Lacrosse that have four cylinder engines. You wont find any fours at Lincoln, Lexus or Infiniti. You continue to claim GM wont give customers what they want but you are advocating a powertrain that luxury customers do not want.
I’m not yet 30 (getting close though) and I would drive a Lacrosse. I visited the auto show and got a look at some of the models that you seem to think are far superior to GM’s offerings. I don’t share your view. I sat in the TL and TSX and both feel like little more than Accords with different interior styling. The TL is acceptable but the TSX does not feel premium at all. Both are very tight in the backseat and lack fold down seats. I think the Lacrosse will compare nicely to the TL for those who arent obsessed with brand snobbery. BTW, I thought it was interesting that several Acura models have hood props instead of struts. Even the Cobalt has a strut to hold up its hood.
“People don’t want large cars with small engines. If that isn’t the case please list a few cars similar in size and weight to the Lacrosse that have four cylinder engines.”
Don’t generalize so. You may not want one, but not all share your opinion. It would have been more correct for you to have said, “In my opinion, people don’t want large cars with small engines.” Or, “No one I know wants a large cars with small engines.”
But your opinion is not universal. I happen to have owned a full-size Mercedes for several years that had a 4-cylinder engine and was more than happy with it. I’d buy another one — if I could afford it.
~ “I thought it was interesting that several Acura models have hood props instead of struts.” ~
What’s wrong with hood props? I prefer props — they are mechanically simpler, lighter, and almost nothing can go wrong with them. That’s one of the hallmarks of good design — using the simplest thing that will do the job.
Sheth,
I don’t see why you continue to think small engines are bad. People buy cars with weighing 3400 lbs with 180 HP. VW of course comes to mind. But even Honda and Toyota have cars with worse power to weight ratios (and they ARE four cylinders). With that weight to power ratio the 3900 lbs LaCrosse only needs 206 HP. You are sadly mistaken.
Is a 4 cylinder for every Buick buyer? No… will people buy them… sure.
I’m not saying to even compare with whats out there. GM has to compete with what is out there but also figure out a few things to do differently. Its quite clear that in europe more weight with less power is ok. I don’t see any reason people in the US wouldn’t be ok with it. There are clearly people on this list that want the Buick luxury without the need for big power. Why not sell to them rather then sending them elsewhere.
I have driven a 2004 TL (my brother owns one) and have to say its incredible. Its really an elegant car. Its not a muscle car, not a luxury car… its a bit of everything and its pleasing to the eye and other senses. Until the new CTS came out GM couldn’t touch the interior of the TL. The TL interior is nice looking functional and not over done nor overly simple or boxy (like many german cars).
I dont’ see the Buick as only being a luxury car. Why offer 280 HP (Northstar engine) if GM doesn’t want a sporty fun Luxury car. To me Clearly the new Buick is a luxury sport car, all it needs are some sport tires and a bit sportier suspension.
I have to admit I’m not such a fan of the NEW TL. I think the interior isn’t as nice to the eye. However in the older TL the seats were very comfortable.
I agree the TL is a bight tight in the backseat but its not as big as the CTS or the normal Buick…. It IS however a sports sedan. Drive one and tell me its not fun. The one I’ve driven was 270 HP with a sport shift auto. It is a blast to drive… like a Pontiac with a Buick interior.
Brand snobbery? Is that like saying Buick is a Luxury only brand? Or telling us a 4 cylinder isn’t for the Buick crowd?
I don’t see the need for struts on the hood… strusts on all my GMs have worn out a metal prop rod never will. Its not as nice or luxurious but it is reliable and works… either way I don’ t think its that big a deal.
This car is OK, but am I the only one who thinks that trying to re-build Buick is like beating a dead horse? A Buick is……an old man’s car…..there, I said it. There’s no future in North America for the Buick brand. It has been ruined by 30 years of appealing to 80 year olds (GNX aside). I’m in my 30s. I don’t EVER envision myself buying a Buick, and even my parents in their 60s won’t….they bought a Toyota and a Saturn.
Of the B-P-G channel of dealers, Pontiac should be the emphasis. The Opel Insignia should become the new G6 (please, change the name, though). The Astra should be a Pontiac, too. You can have some mid-size and full-size “old man” pseudo-luxury boats with a Buick label slapped on them if you must, but to spend R&D money on new Buick models at the expense of Pontiac is ill-advised. In ten years, there will be no market for Buick in the US. I’m not saying the Pontiac is much better, but at least they have a fighting chance moving forward. Sell Buicks in China, sell a few in the US, but give Pontiac a solid lineup of small, midsize, and sports cars. The Solstice and G8 were a start in the right direction, but now Pontiac has been truly abandoned.
“Don’t generalize so. You may not want one, but not all share your opinion. It would have been more correct for you to have said, “In my opinion, people don’t want large cars with small engines.” Or, “No one I know wants a large cars with small engines.””
I am generalizing because the evidence supports my position. If you can find a TL, ES350, Avalon or MKZ with a four cylinder let me know. There are few cars on the market that compete with the Lacrosse in size and price powered by four cylinder engines. The A4 is one exception but that car is hardly a volume leader in the entry luxury class.
Nate:
“Is a 4 cylinder for every Buick buyer? No… will people buy them… sure. ”
What proof do you have of this? What successful midsize or large luxury models have been powered by four cylinder engines? The TL and ES350 are the most successful FWD entry luxury models and niether has such an engine. Neither has EVER offered such an engine. What track record exists for success of a four cylinder engine in a large FWD car? None to my knowledge.
The 280hp engine in the Lacrosse is not a Northstar and has no relation to that engine. The lacrosse is powered by the 3.6L V6.
“I don’t see the need for struts on the hood… strusts on all my GMs have worn out a metal prop rod never will. Its not as nice or luxurious but it is reliable and works… either way I don’ t think its that big a deal.”
Its a big deal in that in the past automotive publications have mentioned hood props as a sign of cost cutting and overlooking of details. Acuras also lack struts for the trunk even though most GM models have them. These things arent major, but they are reminders that Acuras are still Hondas once you remove the large nav screens and better warranty.
Michael J,
I think you are the only one who thinks Buick is like beating a dead horse…. I do however often feel like GM is like beating a dead horse.
I personally have owned Buicks (and I’m in my mid 20’s) and I like them. I also have driven quite a few Pontiacs now. I currently own one. I have driven Trans Am’s (1997), Grand Prix (2007, 1998 & 1990), a G6 (2008), and a G5. I find them fun to drive. With the exception of my current Pontiac I’d never buy one again. Not saying I don’t like them so much as my tastes have become a bit more refined and I no longer like the rather lame interiors that most Pontiacs I have driven come with.
On the other hand Buick is a great car, nice interior, great ride on long trips.. but in the past I’d never call them a fun car. They dont’ look sporty or act sporty. In my opinion the LaCrosse is a pleasant change for Buick. One the brand needs. As you mentioned the GN used to be a great car and was sporty and I’d have to agree most muscle car enthusiasts in the know about GM cars would say the GN is one bad car.
That said I see no reason GM can’t build greatness again in Buick. All it takes is one or two cars to shed the old people image that Buick has.
My Vote is for a sporty version of the Buick (something akin to a CTS-V, only a bit more tame). I see no reason not to put in a turbo V6 with AWD and a refined suspension and transmission and market it to the mid 20’s and 30’s crowd.
Are you sure you couldn’t envision yourself in a Buick that handles as well as a Pontiac and rides like a Lexus… while at the touch of a button you could get rid of that classic Buick boat ride and exchange it for a firm, crisp responsive Pontiac ride?
Because with today’s technology you CAN have all that. A fun, nice looking, quiet driving Buick with manors and a mean streak to match those times you want fun. GM COULD build it if they wanted to.
I however think Pontiac is a wasted brand. Aside from their unique styling there isn’t much else they offer that Chevy, Saturn, or Buick can’t deliver. The G8 is nice but not quite refined enough to be competitive with BMW and not cheap enough to be purchased by enthusiastic Chevy buyers… Pontiac to me seems totally redundant.
For that matter if GM really wanted to they could Ax Saturn, Pontiac and Buick and keep only Chevy, Caddy and perhaps Opel or a new brand….
They need less overlapping model and more options on the models they have.
Just my opinion.
Please don’t tell GM to get rid of Buick. The LaCrosse is a mean car waiting for the right options from GM to appeal to younger buyers like me.
Sheth,
What evidence? That only the brands you compare the Buick to (the brands GM wants it compared to) don’t have those features? Because I can look around and take your primary argument and invalidate it. Go to the web pages of each car mid size car from Toyota, Honda, VW, MItsubishi, Mazda etc… and compare weight to HP ratios. THEN take that ratio and solve for the equivalent engine that a 3900 lbs LaCrosse would need.
For example the VW Passat:
HP: 200 HP
Torque: 207 ftlbs
Weight: 3344 Lbs
Wheelbase: 106.7 in. (2,709 mm)
Length: 188.2 in. (4,780 mm)
Weight to HP ratio: 16.72 to 1
The LaCrosse at the same weight to HP ratio needs 233 HP (on par with a lightly turboed ecotech).
Toyota Solara (coupe):
HP: 155
Torque 158 ftlbs
Length: 192.5 in
Wheelbase 107.1 in
Weight: 3240 lbs
Weight to HP ratio: 20.90
LaCrosse equivalent: 186 HP
Toyota Camry:
HP: 158
Torque: 161 ftlbs
length: 189.2
wheelbase: 109.3
weight: 3483
Weight to HP ratio: 22.04
Equivalent LaCrosse HP: 176.9
Honda Accord:
HP: 177
Torque: 161 ftlbs
Length: 194.1
Wheelbase: 110.2
Weight 3298
Weight to HP ratio: 18.63
LaCrosse equivalent HP: 209.3
What does all this mean? Well it means that GM COULD put a 4 cylinder in the LaCrosse and market it on the low end of luxury (the high end of Honda, an Toyota) and people would be happy with the Weight to HP ratio with as little as 186 HP. Additionally if you look at the engine output vs size you can see that GM SHOULD be able to get that kind of HP from engines in their parts bin of similar sizes.
GM curently has a 1.6L Turbo 4 that makse 180 HP (enough to meet the lowest of the weight to HP ratio). They also have a 2.0L 220 HP 4 cylinder that would be able to meet the weight to HP ratio of VW. These engines ARE from the Production Insignia but are available in GM’s international parts bin.
As a reference take a look at the video here:
http://timepassonline.blogspot.com/2009/01/2010-buick-lacrosse-car-specification.html
The narrator discusses the LaCrosse going after the TL (a Sports Luxury Sedan).
I’m well aware that the LaCrosse doesn’t have the Northstar in it. My point was that Buicks of the past put Horse Power in them (280 HP). So apparently they were going for a bit of performance and sport. I see no reason not to aim the car at the mid 20s group with a sport model.
The 3.6 DI 6 is a great engine. I wish GM offered it turbo (maybe we wouldn’t even be discussing any of this if they did).
I guess I’m just a fan of turbos and the sound they make.
Perhaps gas struts are a sign of cheapening….. either way it wouldn’t stop me from buying.
Incidentally Saturn makes a US model 169 HP 2.4 L 4 that would just about hit the 180 HP required to put the LaCrosse in the running with Toyotas and Hondas.
The new 2010 2.4L ecotec makes 182 HP just enough to put it in the range WITHOUT a turbo. Add a turbo and get 260 HP.
It appears to me a 4 cylinder is feasible and people are willing do deal with less power and a nice interior.
The question is can this car compete with the Genesis. The Genesis has changed the whole playing field. It has actually brought Lexus level quality into this price range. The Lacrosse has competitive styling inside and out, but it has nothing comparable to the Tau V8 engine. The Genesis almost makes an entire generation of GM cars irrelevant. With a both a v6 and V8 choice the Genesis can compete with a whole spectrum of GM cars. The truth is that the Genesis is GM’s worse nightmare. Do you really think people are going to choose either a Lucerne or Lacrosse over a Genesis – not likely.
Herry,
I’d take a Buick over a Hyundai any day. I am a bit biased but I’ve heard there is always something missed by Hyundai. GM has a more proven record in my opinion…. what that record is is another story I suppose.
As to engines, I agree the LaCrosse needs a few more engine options. My recommendations are : a 2.0L Turbo 4 cylinder with about 220 HP. A small turbo V6 with maybe 250 HP. And a Larger turbo V6 with 350 or 400 HP (Making it the LaCrosse version of the CTS-V).
As to a V8 I’m not sure I see the need for one. I guess a small Northstar would be ok if it was direct injected. But really I think GM is better off turboing their 3.6L to make it 350 to 450 HP.
Just my thoughts. For me 400 HP is what I want in an AWD car. Though I’d certainly be happy with a solid 240 HP in a turbo car. I just like the sound of turbos.
Herry
one question HHUUUHHH Genesis. How do you figure a Buick Allure (Lacrosse) which starts at $27,395 wher I am at to $39,395 competes with a car that starts at $37,995 and goes to 48,995 plus freight, Gas Tax, Air conditioning tax and 13% sales tax That at the smallest margin makes it a $10,000 difference up over $20,000 are you that far out of touch plus GM discounts. Then again it seems most GM people are out of touch putting it against Lexus and so on. It is a nice mid size family sedan nothing more nothing less. Anyone buying a lexus would not go near this car.
Nate
is right people that look at Camry, Passat and cars like that look at this car and a 4cyl would do GM good to expand and a manual. The other thing that kills GM in this class is variety. Camry has a coupe, Sedan and now a new wagon with that crappy name.Vensa or something. VW Passat sedan, wagon. Accord Sedan, Coupe. Altima Sedan, Coupe. So get it through your GM heads no
4 cyls, no manuals, no coupes, no wagons equals no sales. Not everyone except for rental car companies wants auto 6cyl sedans. You have a beautiful car here that is marketed to HHHEELLLLOOOOO no one. Except existing GM loyalist that are leaving by the Camry load.
Herry;
Every competitor faces the same issues with the Genesis on the market. Its far cheaper than any large foreign luxury car and it offers more space and V8 power for the price of a compact or midsize luxury car from the competition. There is no reason to single Gm out and say the Genesis must be their worst nightmare. The car is aimed at Lexus and Mercedes so one could argue it makes cars from those brands look very overpriced. the CTS is as nice as the Genesis and handles better. The Genesis gives you more space and V8 power. To me there is no comparison from a styling standpoint. I sat in the Genesis at the auto show and the interior is nice but not as upscale as the CTS’ in my opinon. The Lacrosse appears to be just as nice as the Genesis but it will lack the power available in that car. I suspect the Lacrosse’s base price will be around $28k which is at least $4k cheaper than the Genesis V6. I think the Genesis is playing in a higher price and size class than the Lacrosse although some cross shoppin is inevitable. The Lacrosse has a few things in its favor like FWD (for those up north), available AW and distinctive styling. The Genesis’ bliggest flaw is its generic Asian sedan styling.
Nate:
I will repeat again that GM has three midsize cars with four cylinder engines. The Lacrosse would be very slow with a four cylinder. Based on the fact that GM doesnt use the 2.0L turbo in any large cars I can only guess that the power delivery characteristics of that engine are best suited for small cars with manual transmissions. Even if the 2L was available I wouldnt expect any miraculous gains in fuel efficiency. The 2L only gets 19/28 in the Solstice which weighs about 700lbs less than the Lacrosse.
Nate,
GPS based as a opposed to disc based maps is a proper description, tune in to real language.
The 5.3 ohv V-8 with active fuel management is a superior powerplant to any V-6. Man does not live by horsepower alone. Its simply a better engine. In many ways active fuel managment on a V-8 trancends the need for the V-6. The 5.3 gets signifantly better gas mileage in real life than the EPA estimate too.
Yes, I’ve driven Acuras V-6 Vtec rubber timing belt and all, and its crap.
Your analysis of HP to weight is ridiculous. The foreign brands you cite merely sacrfice structure to save weight.
Grand National is a perfectly wonderful marketing name with high value to many consumers. You don’t seem to understand good marketing.
——————————————————–
GM should be running ads promoting its premium sedans like the STS and the G8 together to garner attention and sales. Why not name the G8 the Lemans and the Lemans GT for the V-8.
The G8 would be selling much more with exposure. Every time we see one, it turns heads especially in the new color Pacific Slate. WOW.
Nate:
Not to mention that Acura V-6 V-tec (rubber timing belt and all) doesn’t really have the stated horsepower until after its threshold RPM. Its a noncontinuously variably system with two sets of cam lobes.
“The foreign brands you cite merely sacrifice structure to save weight.”
And what is wrong with that?
The problem with cars has always been that more than 90% of the energy is spent just moving the car around. It has never made sense to move 4,000 lbs of car in order to move only a single 200 lb person.
Saving weight is more than a worthy goal, in the future it will be absolutely necessary to get the best value out the energy we burn for transportation.
I am glad ro see a Buick receiving this much attention on this site. Kinda proves the brand is still alive and appreciated. We need to maybe look back at the roots of the Buicks we remember and adapt it to today’s models.
I have a 2008 LaCross that my wife drives. She absolutely loves the car & in 7 months has 32K on the car. 3.8L with all the options. She has no complaints about the car and keeps finding out how all the little hidden features operate, like traction control in the snow and ABS.
This car drives great. I am a sports car type of guy and this car impresses me with it’s power, ride, overall feel and size. I’m a large guy and I fit. Easy to get in & out of, seats feel good after a 500 mile road trip, an actual useable trunk. I wish for AWD, but it just can’t be. You press the gas and the car has the low end torque, like a Buick should have. This car drives 80 mph without a fuss. The HVAC works great, very little wind noise.
I showed the pictures of the 2010 car to my wife. Her 1st words were “when can I get one”. It looks fantastic in the silver on the Buick website. I really want to see it in person & drive it. She will likely get one next winter.
Buick, having been the original near-luxury car, need to get back to it’s roots. We are playing against Acura, Lexus & Infinity. Price the car to play with them. A premium car priced low will not get taken seriously by the public. Make this car $40k, put all the stuff on it. Then, make sure it is the best you can make it. Go even up, best car wins. Nothing else American-made plays in that market. We are it, guys.
To all of the “must have a manual transmission” wishers. Sorry. Auto trans have gotten so much better recently that you would be hard pressed to really want one. The tap-shift units are great and trouble-free. The car does scream AWD. Thanks to the engineer that pushed that one thru. Do we need a diesel? Yes. But you will need to overcome the bad memories of the 5.7L. A real, honest european turbo diesel will work, but will be a hard sell. Putting the 5.3L V8 in the car is almost a must and badge it a GS or Wildcat. A 4 cyl just wont cut it. This ain’t you grandpa’s Buick, but for most of us, we remember grandpa’s Buick for it’s shape, power how nice it was compared to dad’s Chevy. The 1st time I went over 100 mph was in a Buick. So the respect is there for the brand. Just please make the brand live up to the respect.
If Saturn is going to be shut down, revive Opel with the Astra and let Buick sell it at a fixed price. I understand the overlap with Pontiac Vibe & G5 in the dualed showrooms. Give the Vibe to GMC as a small SUV since the Envoy & Jimmy are both gone.
Edwin,
GPS stands for Global Positioning System (at least in the circles I am in). It is the satellite network and the radio signals they send. In order to USE the GPS signal you need a receiver and processor to properly process the differential radio signals they send out. The computer converts this signal into a Latitude and Longitude coordinate as well as computes altitude (all relative to the satellites in space). What is done with the information from there is totally up to the end “user” (company making the product). In my experience there are 2 basic ways of navigating 1) Cell towers (such as the first generation iPhone used and 2) GPS receivers. In the case of the store bought GPS (hand held, dash mount or panel mounted for boats and airplanes). They all rely on a map database that correlates lat/long/alt data to a useful position on a map. Some systems like the iPhone use the internet to pull the maps as they are needed. Other systems like those purchased for your car (aftermarket) use internal map databases stored on flash memory… yet others like the older car based systems found mounted in dash use DVDs to store the maps.
Unless there is some odd language and terminology that I’m not aware of, my language regarding GPS is correct. You may want to double check what you are saying. Because, respectfully, I am sure I’m using correct terminology.
GPS is the signal system, the map database can be stored any number of ways which are totally independent of how the GPS radio receiver itself functions.
As to the 5.3 V8… I would challenge your assessment any day. At very least the V8 is on par with the new V6. Even with cylinder deactivation. A 5.3L V8 with Direct injection is different story.
The only benefit of the V8 is more torque at the expense of a slightly lower redline and less mileage.
If you have some BSFC numbers to back your statements up I’d like to see them. Additionally it would be interesting to see the emissions comparison of the two.
As for me I will be getting the data first hand from the engines themselves once I get them up on a dyno to test them.
According to my conversations with Sheth my analysis of HP to weight ratios is accurate. Sheth’s statement to me was that no one would buy a car that weighs 3900 lbs with a 4 cylinder. Yet According to the math I did people ARE buying cars that are similar in effective performance (HP to weight ratio).
The foreign brands may sacrifice structure to save weight (or maybe GM can’t make a lightweight car to save their own skin). Let me know when you can show some proof that their lighter structures are inferior to GM’s somewhat heavier structures. Do you know what alloy steel or aluminum the competition uses? Do you know its strength and material properties? Do you know how their structures behave under certain load conditions? Do you know GM’s compares?
I don’t, so I can’t accurately make reference to the quality and structure of GM’s competition. But what I do know is that people are buying the competition’s cars. The cars have the weight to HP ratios I mentioned that people actually are buying. These same ratios COULD be put in the Buick with out to much of a problem if GM wanted to.
Good marketing is subjective. I am in my mid 20s the Grand National of the day has little meaning or importance to me. On the other hand older people such as my father remember the glory days of the Grand National and it means something to him. But honestly all that is moot if you look at the current landscape of the market. The old days are dead and people like my father are stuck in the past. The old GM and GM’s old ways are mostly invalid now.
As for the G8, I’m not sure I consider it a premium sedan. I’ve beenin one and it wasn’t bad but wasn’t near what I was expecting it to be.
A Ferrari turns heads too but its not for everyone. GM wants to sell cars… cars that aren’t part of the exclusive club… the G8 apparently isn’t quite selling like it could according to you. There are obviously reasons beyond marketing for that. Probably the fact that its HUGE and a lot of people want smaller cars. Additionally not everyone wants a V8 or a V6… and then there’s the whole GM loanout issue effecting sales.
I may not be an expert, but as an engineer I know what I see. And I see a reason people aren’t buying GM. GM people can’t admit it though.
Edwin,
What year Acura V6 are you talking about?
Keep in mind that doesn’t matter because the Acura TL has a feel that people like. There are many ways to parameterize that feel.
Sheth,
GM may have 4 midsisze cars with 4 cylinders but they can’t compete with the higher end of VW, Toyota and Honda.
Do you know anything about the power delivery characteristics of Turbocharged cars? They offer a wider torque band, more power and more torque. The Solstice Turbo engine makes 260 Ftlbs of torque and 260 HP. Power wise its right up there with the base model 3.0L V6 that is in the LaCrosse.
There may not be any gain in fuel economy. But perception is the big issue. People hear the words “4 cylinder” and “turbo” and it totally changes how they hear the rest of the words describing the car. A magazine writer may write “The LaCrosse is a nice car with plenty of power” But if it had a turbo 4 cylinder they might say “The LaCrosse is a blast to drive with a fuel efficient 4 cylinder and a turbo ready to move you. It is a fun car to drive”….
People react differently to that. Just look at Subaru, Mitsubishi, and a few others offering turbo AWDs.
There is a clear marketing advantage to offering a 4 cylinder with a turbo.
As for the fuel economy. NO one is really doing much better then 28 MPG if they have a 220 HP engine. Its the way the new EPA ratings are. Camry gets 28 or 29 MPG. Thats not the issue as much as fighting the stigma and perception that GM has.
A 4 cylinder in a car that LOOKS like the LaCrosse would be a winner with more customers then GM realizes. And last I looked GM needs sales.
Are you kidding me??!! How did you get this car past GM’s bland police? This car is by far – the nicest full-size car that has come out of Detroit in years. GM has finally allowed it’s designers to put more style into a cars side profile . Sure beats the old rubber trim that runs the length of a typical GM car.
As others have mentioned here, don’t get into the habit of grafting the same grill/facia of one car onto another. You can still make a Buick look like a Buick without putting the exact same grill on everything. When you do things like that, it makes things get old pretty quickly. Go the extra mile.
“GM may have 4 midsisze cars with 4 cylinders but they can’t compete with the higher end of VW, Toyota and Honda.”
Nate:
What basis do you have for that comment? The Malibu LTZ and Aura XR are fully comparable to upper level Accord and Camry models. All they lack is navigation but that feature is skipped by most midsize buyers anyway. I have no idea how you can make such a statement. The Passta is more expensive car and does not really compare to the other cars you named. It also is the only one with a turbo engine standard.
“There may not be any gain in fuel economy. But perception is the big issue. People hear the words “4 cylinder” and “turbo” and it totally changes how they hear the rest of the words describing the car. ”
People hear “4 cylinder” and they are going to say “why does a Buick have a four cylinder?” and look elsewhere. Buick knows what they are doing in this case. There is certain amount of prestiage associated with V6 motors in many vehicle segments. Many folks are not interested in a four cylinder engine in a $30k car, even if that engine is turbocharged.
“And last I looked GM needs sales.”
Everyone could use extra sales in this market.
Memo to Nate and Sheth:
Can the two of you take your debate about whether or not the Buick should have a four-cylinder engine someplace else? How about trading e-mail addresses and making it a point-to-point discussion between just yourselves?
You are both valuable contributors, but this debate is growing tiresome.
Sheth,
You answered your own question. ” All they lack is navigation but that feature is skipped by most midsize buyers anyway.”
It is really foolish to overlook a detail like that. If the G6 had a Nav I would probably own one right now as I wait for the Buick LaCrosse or be saving for a CTS.
Again I don’t like the options on the Aura and Malibu and neither do many people I talk to. The VW Passat may be more expensive but thats exactly why it should be compared to the Buick LaCrosse.
A few people might say “What a 4 cylinder” and go else where. But a lot more are going to say “What its got a turbo 4 cylinder? Wow where do I get one?”
There are probably as many folks out there who want 4 cylinders as want 6 cylinders.
I don’t think that the average non enthusiast cares which is in their car as long as it starts when they turn the key. Additionally, many of these same customers lack the technical background to understand that a 6 cylinder CAN get similar fuel economy as a 4 cylinder. That said they have it engrained in their mind that 4 cylinders will ALWAYS be more fuel efficient then 6s… that in itself is reason enough to look at a 4 cylinder in the Buick.
I’ll say it again. I don’t get GM’s know it all attitude (or maybe that’s your attitude hearing).
Buick will always have a few legacy buyers who expect a luxury car with lots of power. But lets look at reality. There are a lot of people who want luxury interiors and exteriors but could care less about power. I think Audi, VW, Toyota, and Honda all have proven that.
And BTW my neighbor’s 2008 Honda Accord is very nice inside even without the Nav System certainly as nice if not nicer then any Buick I’ve ever been in as well as nicer then most GM’s, and it has a 4 cylinder with I believe around 170 HP. So please stop discrediting what buyers want and don’t want. Not every buyer fits into GM’s idealistic view of the car world. And for those buyers GM better wake up and figure out how to capture their market.
Its time GM figures out that buyers want variety and options amongst within models as much as between models.
As for me. When I get a LaCrosse it’ll no doubt have the engine out within the first 50K miles for a turbo and retune.
Harbottle Grimstone,
Not necessary. I think I’ve expressed my views well enough. I can only hope GM listens.
This blog is about voicing opinions and being vocal so GM can make better vehicles. I see the discussions here to be useful. During this discussion I think Sheth and I have narrowed down the issue to one of culture and perception about what Buick is and isn’t.
That however is for GM to decide. Purchasing their products is for me to decide.
As for our discussions back and forth…. if you don’t like them skip over them. I address mine to Sheth and he seems to address them to me. If you have an opinion to add that would be good though.
Do you have anything else to add to this thread?
Nate:
Life is not that complicated.
GPS operation: Few are concerned about how a GPS functions internally, the driver just wants a user friendly device with successful experience. Its marketing, that is the point. The issue was recognition of the toll road as a permissible route, not the storage of the map. The Garmin device operates easily, so someone should hire one of their programers.
I’ve driven the foreign competition, and the Acura V-6 V-tec is lousy. Acura/Honda V-6 V-tec doesn’t provide the stated horsepower until after the threshold RPM, and it doesn’t have the feeling. Its funny to watch the salesman try to swag the customers by telling them Acura is soo filled with technology while another customer is upset in showroom with a failed transmission. If the Honda/Acura rubber timing belt snaps (part number 144-RCA-A01) on the freeway at 70 mph, it may place lives in danger. How can anyone recommend them? Acura/Honda owners complain about the transmissions with an online petition. It seems almost no one should buy an Acura/Honda.
Structure: So you are admitting that the foreign competition sacrifices structure to save weight. Now take a look at the facts, GM cars still achieve better in class fuel economy than the foreign branded competition, so your point about weight is moot. GM offers better performance too. GM does a better job of building vehicles than the foreign competition. In the televised Pontiac challenge, with certificed drivers, Pontiac beat the foreign luxury sport competition. The auto print media needs to buy a new calculator.
GM’s 4 cyclinder Eco-tec does offer a steel timing chain too, along with reliability, great feel, and great fuel economy. Plenty of greats.
REAL WORLD: The 5.3 V-8 with active fuel management transcends the need for a V-6. I don’t want a V-6. Most of my friends and family have V-8s now. We’ve outgrown the entry level world and we’re not going back. The real world fuel economy of the 5.3 V-8 is better than the EPA estimate and GM owners experience it. The 5.3 feel is fantastic and the power is there when you need it. GM offers great V-6 engines, but the 5.3 V-8 with active fuel management allows GM to differentiate itself from the competition and provide a superior product at the same time.
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The Buick LaCrosse will soon be joining GM’s other world class sedans, lets just hope they keep the Super 5.3 V-8 for the successful taste. But what to do if someone wants a new world class sedan that can fit a couple of children in the back seat right now? Successful entrepreneurs have families with kids too. One SUV and at least one or two other cars. GM has two of the world’s best sedans for rising professionals. The Pontiac G8 and Cadillac STS are world class and they support America. The new 2010 Buick LaCrosse Super could join the ranks if GM ponys up. GM is not giving the STS and the G8 the exposure they need to reach out to buyers. GM is missing lots of luxury sedan business in this range and should give more marketing to the G8 GT and the STS Northstar in order to capture the market of rising professionals. The Pontiac G8 offers GM’s LS V-8 and world class sedan for the pure car enthusiast. The Cadillac STS NorthStar is also world class with a high end luxury appeal. Every rising professional should have one of each. Buy them both!! Then buy the 2010 Buick LaCrosse this summer.
Why Americans should BUY a new PONTIAC G8 GT today (buy a new Cadillac STS fully loaded for the other garage, get the high luxury package with the wood steering wheel and stick and the NorthStar V-8).
Its important to buy American, of course. Australians buy American. Parts of the G8 come from Australia you may notice. But don’t worry. Australia buys more from America than America is buying from them. Surpise, its time thank Australia, and return the favor to one of America’s strongest Allies. The United States has a huge trade surplus with Australia too. Australia is one of the fastest growing buyers of American products. That’s one reason Americans should buy a Pontiac G8 which supports GM worldwide. Pontiac has fantastic brand imagery with one of the most appealing logos. Pontiac should take over Saturn immediately and GM would hit the ground running with Pontiac.
Americans are buying American. There is an increased awareness. Here in Orlando among the many mansions of large neighborhoods even Spring Lake and Lake Ivanhoe for instance, reside many of areas most successful entrepreneurs. Folks in Michigan might be surprised that there is scarecly a foreign car in these neighborhoods if there even are any at all, with the exception an exotic sports car sprinkled here or there. In Winter Park, other than high end BMWs and Mercedes, the new luxury cars are almost exclusively Cadillac and Lincoln. Besides the kids walking the dogs, and American flags in the yards, the arced driveways of Orlando’s elite are lined with new American cars. Not just one, but routinely two, three, and four new American cars line the driveway. From the his and hers Chrysler 300Cs, new Lincolns, Buick Enclaves, Pontiacs, new CTS’s and Escalade’s, a new one of different colors for each family member. One of the largest gated mansions sports three new Cadillacs. Just the opposite seems to occur in some major cities. Presence, dealerships, and image do matter. GM is winning.
Edwin,
You are right to an extent. However I merely wanted to point out a fundamental inaccuracy in your statement. GPS is the positioning system NOT the software or map system. There is no reason a DVD based system can’t function as well if not better then a Garmin suction cup mount unit. It has nothing to do with the GPS.
That said you have made your point. And I do agree that Garmin’s GPS software is pretty darned good.
Interesting you say that about their engines and transmissions. My brother has an ‘04 TL and hasn’t had any problems of engine or transmission type. He has about 100K on it and loves the car.
My GM’s on the other hand have transmission problems with less then 100K. No big deal GM transmission hopefully have come a long way.
As for timing belts. Most modern cars use them and have interference engines. That includes, Audi, VW, BMW, Honda (apparently), and Toyota. Yet people seem to have decent luck with them.
All our GMs have chains to my knowledge so no problems there.
My point was never really about weight. I was merely arguing weight to HP ratio since Sheth pointed out that a 3900 Lbs buick would never sell with a 4 cylinder (which I still can’t agree with him on).
The trouble is people out there think GM is inferior because they can’t keep the weight of their products down. And lets face it in the performance side of things this is killing GM. For instance the G8 compared to a BMW is heavier. A lot of people see that and turn their nose about it. I hardly ever hear anyone say GM builds a safer car. All I hear are people complaining about GM’s cars being heavy and fuel hogs and technologically behind the times etc…
The fact is people are buying lighter weight cars for a variety of reasons. Apperently the last of it is safety.
I’m not sure how you can say GM offers better performance. Handling wise several of their cars are behind the competition and under powered for their weight. And for that matter have poor city economy. Feel free to throw some figures and numbers in there; I’ll stand corrected then.
OK lets set one thing straight. I can hardly compare a Pontiac to a VW, Audi, BMW, Lexus or Acura. The interior quality and styling just is no where to be found. Then what about cars like Subaru and Mitsubishi. Who offer great performance, price?
Again I don’t think Pontiac can tough them. A BMW would beat a G8 almost any day of the week. Especially if we are talking about the M cars. GM simply can’t compete all around. Of course you will talk price point but thats a totally different issue. What other cars do Pontiacs compete against?
Also are we talking completely street cars or race spec cars with race/tube chassis?
I agree 100% on the Eco-Tec engine. Its not for me though, but I know a lot of people that are drawn to 4 cylinders because they falsely believe the economy is always better with a 4 cylinder. So what I say is why try to educate people who don’t want to listen. Just offer a good 4 cylinder in the medium/ to larger cars and see who buys them. Even if they are only 5% of sales that is an added 5%.
I’m not sure I agree with you on the 5.3 V8. I think the new Direct injected V6s offer a good alternative to V8s. Now when GM makes a 5.3 V8 with direct injection it will be worth looking at.
A few years ago I looked at a Grand Prix GXP with the 5.3 in it. The one thing that made me hesitate is the 26 MPG (down from 27 MPG of the previous year). Compare that to a car with the same 300 HP (yes I know torque is less on the V6) that gets 28 MPG…. Thats a make or break it for me. My current car is old and STILL gets 29 MPG. I can’t see dropping 2-3 MPG on my next purchase. It makes little sense.
As for fun to drive factor whether we are talking about a Turbo 4, 6 or a N/A 6 or 8… each is fun… each has its own personality. If I’m going to pay 25K to 35K for a car I want a turbo. Just my personal preference.
Additionally last I looked the 5.3 had a low redline. I find it fun to wind out an engine to 7 or 8K. Again just personal preference.
If GM puts a 5.3 in the LaCrosse I hope they come up with a better name then the Super. As a younger person I think Super sounds lame and old. Same goes for LaCrosse. I think Allure is much much better. Again personal preference.
Respectfully do you really consider anyone a successful entrepreneur in this country (USA) when our economy tanked to the point of requiring multi billion dollar bail outs? Seriously. It appears more to me like the “entrepreneurs” of America have been irresponsible and have gotten themselves into a mess. Again just my opinion.
I really don’t see HOW you can call the G8 and STS world class. (Do you mean world class for the price??). Motor Trend couldn’t even put the G8 on its top ten list.
GM isn’t giving the G8 and STS the features it needs to reach out to people. Those at GM and GM supporters/customers don’t understand what customers want. Which is precisely why they aren’t selling enough of them. The G8 is nothing more then a want to be BMW. And anyone shopping for a car like that Knows it. The STS is somewhat of a confused car. Its got a nice exterior, but the interior is old and outdated now that the CTS is out. On top of that it only appeals to older people. Which is fine but GM has to realize that there are plenty of other top notch brands in the same or similar price ranges that offer better value and nicer looks. That is what people are buying.
How do you figure the NorthStar is world class? Do you mean competitive when you say world class?
Rising professionals want the bragging rights of more prestigious brands like BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Lexus and Infiniti. Not GM products that they know/think are rebadged cars (which is BTW what a lot of people still think).
It is important to buy American? Why? Last I looked GM products weren’t made in the US because they can’t competitively do it.
I disagree the Pontiac logo is boring and old looking. I’d rather the Buick logo or Cadillac logo.
Please define your idea of elite? Does this include people who are over financed to afford their 3 cars?
The area of Florida I’m from the elite drive foreign cars.
GM needs to focus on more then just the elite if they want to stay in business. They need to focus on the less then elite who are buying cheaper, equally as nice cars and very happy with them.
We’ll see if GM is winning. At the very least hopefully these discussions help to better GM and make their products better and more appealing.
Nate:
I assure you most people do not survey the curb weights of cars before making a decison. You are really nitpicking now. You are taking the issues that you care about and assuming that most car buyers share your concerns. The new Accord is over 3600lbs with a V6 and yet people still buy the car without hesitation. GM’s models are generally heavier than their Asian competitors but are roughly equal to their European competitors. My guess is the extra mass has something to do with the ridigity of the structure and crashworthiness. If case you missed it the new RX350 gained about 400lbs because Lexus wanted to make sure it passed all upcoming safety regulations in the US and abroad. One has to ask the question: How safe is the current model if the new model needed 400lbs of reinforcement to meet looming safety regs? Now the RX’s mass is in line with similarly sized GM products, if not slightly heavier. The new SRX is close in size to the 2010 RX and weighs about 4300lbs with AWD which is lighter than the AWD RX350.
A few other points:
1. The G8 GXP performs about as well as the last gen M5 and it only slightly off the pace of the current M3.
2. Many of GM’s best models are made here in the US
3. The STS has been out since 2004 so it should not be a surprise that the CTS has a fresher design. You say the STS doesnt offer the features people want but it offers everything you would find on comparable foreign luxury sedans.
Nate,
Pontiac did compete and win against BMW and some others in the televised Pontiac challenge. There was a link to the program at at one time, perhaps someone can repost the results. (As I recall, BMW, Mercedes, Ford and Lincoln (3.5 and up), and most GM cars offer steel timing chains. Perhaps you were thinking of VW and Porshe with your comment about timing belts, now BMW).
As informed as you claim to be, we should not have to rehash the successful history of the NorthStar and the LS V-8. The NorthStar engine is world class (along with the Aurora 4.0 which won many races and captured world records for speed endurance). The NorthStar history, design, and performance, all testify to this. It carries the brand mystique for GM in the market place and the name and product should continue to do so. The LS V-8 used in the G8 is world class, as well as the Corvette, etc. These are not disputed in the market place. These engines are strong products with brand mystique and only add to a cars potential for sales. The 5.3 with active fuel management is also a strong product for GM and it transcends the need for a V-6 for the successful taste.
There was an excellent article that someone should reprint from the 1990s by a retired BMW engineer who disected the NorthStar V-8, the Lincoln V-8, and BMW V-8. His comments and comparisons were highly favorable comparing these American V-8s to BMW. The article commented that they were among the best engines in the world. Its seems like it was in motor magazine or one of those.
Pontiac should takeover Saturn:
Disagree with you regarding Pontiac imagery. Pontiac is very strong on imagery, logo, and the intrinic value of its classic line-up like the Firebird Bandit, the GTO, Lemans are unquestioned. Among GM’s other strong logos was the Aurora swoosh. The Aurora swoosh should be the new Buick logo.The three shield logo for Buick should be revamped, Buick needs more than three models going forward. GM should combine the Oldsmobile model classic names under the Buick dealers, rotating for example the Riviera and Toronado offerings to excite buyers to come in to the showrooms to take a look. Pontiac should takeover Saturn with Saturn’s product line-up being dispersed among GM’s core brands. This plan would roll out incrementally and expand going forward to meet demand.
With a stronger Cadillac, GM’s core flagship models at Buick and Pontiac will soar. GM should make a serious plan to manage its tiered assortments in a series, like it did in the 1960s with the successful Eldorado-Toronado-Riviera series for example.
The Pontiac G8 is a fantastic product that is not getting exposure along with the STS as noted previously. These are the models GM should be promoting and show casing in this economy. These buyers can afford it.
These buyers are not over extended as you suggest, they have the cash on hand right now to purchase at least one or two new GM vehicles. They are buying Acadias and Enclaves for because they like the style. They need to inspired with sedans. The Pontiac G8 with the LS-V-8 in Pacific Slate up close and personal is awe-inspiring. But you don’t see them yet and this buyer is not really aware of the product until they see one or hear of it. The STS-V should offer the LS-V-8. This customer, which is the typical Mercedes owner, wants a torque feel, and would be more inclined to buy an STS with the right powertrain. But why don’t they buy more of them now the GM exec may ask? Simply, they would like the horsepower and torque together on the STS-V to match Mercedes. Another issue is Color on the STS. The beautiful blues aren’t even called blue, they’re called gray and then they stop offering it. For 2008, the STS there were too dark gay colors, and not enough slate blues and jewel tones.
One of GM”s most successful ads was ad wich for the CTS release which aired over Thanksgiving as I recall. The dealers were swamped with calls and visits. At the time our local Cadillac dealer claimed they had 100 people show up to see the CTS, the day after the ad ran. But guess what? There were no CTS cars delivered to the dealers yet.
Foreign competition:
Diversifying Cadillac’s line-up:
The more serious competition for GM is the Lexus exterior design. Time and time again we’ve told GM to diverisfy luxury sedan design at Cadillac to capture more business and reduce its exposure during recessions like the one right now. GM should also offer a strong entry level coupe with a competitive price and a twin turbo 4 like the BMW 135i. We aren’t going to let our friends at GM off the hook on this one. We want them to tackle the entry level Cadillac models head on. We don’t want Lexus IS, ES, and the RX crossover to keep eating GM”s lunch on sales. And that is where Lexus/Toyota needs to be hit hardest. The Camry will come crumbling down once the Lexus IS, ES, RX are delt with the right way. GM and Cadillac offer superior powertrains and technology to Toyota and Lexus. Clearly, the issue is offering cars that meet the appearance demands of the buyer. The Lexus IS is a strong entry level product and Cadillac can offer better one. GM has beautful designs like the 87-88 Trofeo which should have been a Cadillac. GM knows how to design cars.
Infiniti/Nissan is not a serious competition. Its design and looks just aren’t there. Buick has the right stuff going forward to take away the Infiniti customer. The 08 LaCrosse and the Intrigue both had nice fronts, but both suffered from a lackluster tail light design while the foreign competition has been using some of GM’s classic design cues in the tail light designs themselves. GM has a home run with the Malibu and the 2010 LaCrosse also appears to be a home run.
The competition is Lexus. Disagree with you regarding Acura/Honda. Acura/Honda are not serious competition in the market place. Ask those who work in the shops how many they are seeing. There have been a high number of recalls on Acura/Honda transmissions. Their V-6 V-tec engines are of questionable design with quirky performance that doesn’t offer the stated horsepower until after the threshold RPM and does not offer a coninuously variable valve timing throughout the RPM range. As a result, some drivers may be tempted to try to kick up the engine rev past the threshold in order to see if the horsepower is there. Besides, Acura/Honda doesn’t look that good and the interior is not competitive regardless of how some automotive media try to cheer lead for them.
Sheth,
I’m well aware that most people don’t do a thourough technical review of the cars specs. Which is the original reason this thread got started. I suggested that most people hear 4 cylinder and associate it with good fuel economy. Add to that the nice looks of the LaCrosse and there is an instant winner. Somehow the issue of power was brought up which then forced the issue of weight and weight to power ratios. The issue of saftey and vehicle weight wasn’t brought up until recently.
Again weight may have increased due to a number of things. I don’t like to assume that saftey is the primary reason. But I suppose thats not a bad assumption. The reality is though that consumers need to be made aware of this.
As an example I have a friend who constantly bases my over weight GM products as being inferior because they are heavy. However I’ve never once heard him talk about safety. Some people simply don’t care about safety. They care about power, weight, handling and looks.
1) The G8 is a car “I” could afford the M5, not so much unless we talk used. So I think its foolish for GM to only compare the M5 and G8. I could however afford a nice 3 Series or maybe an M3. But the G8 is larger and doesn’t keep pace. That NEEDS to change. Big issue… why spend for a G8 when for maybe a grand or two more I could have a 3 series that is more refined?
Otherwise you make a valid point
2) Define best models
3) Sure the STS does, however why can’t GM update the interior every two years? The Chassis is no doubt good and the exterior styling decent. Why not freshen it up with a new CTS like dash to match and maybe some more under the hood goodies.
As a note. I went to the Caddy dealer to see what their used CTS’s were like. I saw an STS (which back in 2005-2006 I thought was pretty nice). By today’s standards a CTS is much much more appealing to me.
That said what market does the STS now serve? The new CTS outdoes the STS in almost everything. Additionally from an exterior styling standpoint the CTS has taken the cool STS factors that the previous CTS was missing and incorporated them. As I understand it the STS is simply a slightly larger car but built on the same platform as the CTS (or perhaps vice versa).
Edwin,
Perhaps I was thinking of older BMWs that had timing belts.
History is history. Its in the past and is not relevant to tomorrow’s car. Especially when GM has other engines that offer a better cost/effectiveness ratio. I define effectiveness as a product of power, torque band, and fuel efficiency.
The Northstar is an expensive engine and its performance limited. I state this considering that the CTS-V has an LS series engine rather then a hopped up Northstar. It makes little sense to me for GM to put the LS engine in the -V cars (except the STS). At one point GM explained that the LS is a better choice.
That said why even keep the now old Northstar around?
The Aurora/Northstar engine/block did well in racing for a while. But everything I have read has told me that the competition has surpassed the technology lead it once had. That said I consider the Northstar to be mostly dead except maybe the new Direct Injection version with the Variable Valve timing.
I’m not even taking into account all the problems the Aurora and Northstar engines had.
I agree the LS engine is world class. GM has proven this AND the LS engine is probably one of the longest running, most developed engines in the world. And JUST when I thought it was about to Die. GM announced they were adding Direct Injection to it (truck engines I think). This means that once again GM will have an extremely good engine to run.
Successful taste?
I disagree… I think for years GM should have had a small 4.0L V8 with a turbo option. This would give a very nice mystique. I think Audi is the only one doing small V8 turbos right now (if even at all).
None the less it would be a cool option. But the reality is that cost savings are in GM’s immediate future. That said it only make sense to keep three lines of Gas engines: Eco-Tec 4, High Feature V6 and the LS series.
Perhaps GM can offer all variants on the LaCrosse with turbos also…. imagine 2 of each engine type…. (2) 4 cylinders (N/A and turbo), (2) 6 cylinders (again N/A and Turbo) and (2) V8s (N/A and perhaps a small Super or turbo engine).
That would be a lot of options. But the point is to sell to customers preferences. Why not have a turbo V6 or turbo V8? etc.. I see no reason beside development and support cost. I’ve always been a fan of turbos, you may like N/A and other people may like Superchargers. Why not try to satisfy most of those customers?
I just don’t think the 5.3 engine is the solution unless it makes 400 HP and still gets 30 MPG. Then I’d get one in a LaCrosse.
But there are certain things that can be done with boost that can’t be done with engine size alone.
As noted by several other people the 1990s were a long time ago. A LOT has changed since then. in the ’90s the idea of computer controlled valve timing was only a research project at one of the top engine manufacturers (probably BMW). Today most cars worth their weight have it.
I can’t say I agree. By today’s standards those names you mention bring up memories of cars that are junk. The specific names you mention are all performance cars. GM hasn’t built one of those in a while. And even at that I don’t think they CAN do it. If you want performance based cars why not move them to Buick (they had the Grand National didn’t they) and move the entry level cars to Saturn. The only other option is getting rid of Chevy and for some weird reason people object to that. Again there is to much overlap in Pontiac’s models with Saturn and Chevy. It would be better to just drop them. Most of their line I’ve been in have subpar interiors and bland exterior styling. On top of that GM can’t continue to support that many models in so many brands. The writing is on the wall that one of the brands has to go and the number of models GM sells has to be intelligently consolidated and updated. There is no reason for either Saturn or Pontiac to be around. And for that matter little reason to keep Chevy around (I think Saturn is the most viable for the future).
I agree the new Oldsmobile log worked very well. It would work well on a car like the LaCrosse. However the Opel logo would work well. Among the poorest logos on today’s CARS is the Chevy bow tie. It just ruins the looks of the Malibu and Cobalt. Redesigning the Chevy logo would go a long way.
I still don’t understand why anyone would want to bring back the old brand names? Besides Ford and Chrysler what other companies do that?
The Camaro I can understand. But none of Buicks current models have the character required to bring back old Brand names.
I still strongly disagree with disbanding Saturn. I thin Saturn has an image of low cost high quality cars by many of its buyers. I think GM should take advantage of that by moving low end models of Chevy and Pontiac to the Saturn name (ie Cobalt, G5, and Malibu), The could move the middle end ones to Buick and keep Caddy as the ultimate brand. There would then be no need for Chevy except for Trucks. They could dissolve GMC, and Possibly bring in Opel. Though Maybe Bring Opel in, in favor of Buick. Either way if GM had the Following brand structure it would work well (from lowest to highest): Saturn, Buick/Opel, Cadillac, Chevy (trucks only), and Corvette. There is no need for Saab, Hummer etc.. even if there was they could be shuffled into that lineup. It would greatly simplify GM’s brand scheme and reduce costs in the long run. it would also introduce a Euro brand to compete more directly with BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Infini,Lexus, and Acura.
Something GM currently isn’t doing that well at (the CTS alone isn’t enough to compete with all those niche brands).
That still leaves Volvo, Mitsubishi, Subaru and a few other companies to figure out how to compete with.
I don’t see ANY need for a series. UNLESS you are talking about one car and different trim levels (as GM does with the LS, LT etc.. series). Then maybe naming the series is ok… But I think spreading one car out with 3 different names is the biggest mistake GM could make. On the other hand offering one model with 5 different trim levels is the SMARTEST thing GM could do.
What is there to showcase on the G8 and STS? The CTS and LaCrosse as well as Volt are the only cars GM has that are showcase worthy right now. Tell me what puts the G8, Malibu and STS above the CTS, LaCrosse and Volt (platform)?
I can’t think of much except price tag. The G8 is somewhat a dud from that regard. Its just another one in the show field. Nothing special nothing great.
They are buying Enclgaves and Acadias because they are styled right and have the RIGHT feature sets. Additionally they are AWD, get OK fuel mileage, and CAN tow a decent sized trailer. All in all for the price they are a decent deal.
It would be foolish to think or suggest that “these buyers” are going to waste their money one TWO vehicles when they can get what they WANT in one. If GM Made an Acadia with 30 or 35 MPG no one would bother with cars except enthusiasts. The Acadia form factor is probably the best thing since the minivan. It isn’t for everyone but it offers what customers want (as do the CTS and if GM gets it right the LaCrosse).
Why would you say the STS-V should be offered when not more then a few paragraphs before you mentioned how great the Northstar is… I don’t get it.
Have you ever driven a vehicle with a turbo that is setup right? IF you want feel… go take a Subaru WRX out on the beach and drive it. The acceleration on sand is incredible. Now imagine an AWD GM with more power and torque doing the same thing…..
GM won’t ever match Mercedes, BMW, Audi, or any of those brand until GM builds an 80K luxury car with all kinds of options. They don’t need to build many just a few and offer them to a select few. That will do a HUGE thing for their name. It gives them models the average person CAN’T afford and thus something that remains special. GM misses that point a lot. The same goes for the Corvette. The reason an Aston Martin will alway have a mystique about it is because few people have them, AND they are a work of art. Imagine if GM made a ZR1 that cost 250K with a special ZR1 only body and only offered a handful of them. We’re not talking performance numbers but customer perception. If GM made a car that was like that. Customers would be attracted to them and end up buying something they CAN afford from GM. Of course the Technology base would flow downhill.
That is why Mercedes and BMW customers don’t look at the STS. The STS is just another GM car which probably isn’t worth the cost difference of it and the new CTS. In fact the STS should get phased out for a while. Bring in one of GM’s high cost China cars to fill its place. Let the well off customers buy their exclusive rights to a high end GM product.
GM has a history of showing cool products and then failing to deliver on them. The 16 is one of them. If GM would have offered it it would have worked well. The same goes with the CTS coupe (again it was shown and then never offered).
I can think back to the days the Z06 was just being released. I thought wow thats an incredible car. And it was exciting to have the chance to see one on the road. Today Z06s are so commonplace that I don’t even notice them. GM doesn’t understand this part of marketing. They need to constantly be creating new demand with cars that people want and a small percentage of tease cars that are only for the select few who can afford them.
I agree on the Lexus exterior design. The CTS isn’t quite sexy enough… the LaCrosse is close. Though the CTS has a much more refined looking interior then the LaCrosse. Too bad GM couldn’t fit them both into the same vehicle. They’d have an instant hit.
I agree that GM needs a turbo coupe. Something like the Cobalt SS but perhaps in the new Cruze architecture with a much much classier interior and better suspension. I think it should be offered by Buick. Offer it with a small 2.6 or 2.8L V6 (like the SAAB TurboX engine).
I think Buick and Caddy are the tag team to hit the mid and entry level. But maybe it’d be easier to bring in Opel for that. I think along the lines of a VW passat sized car or maybe a 1 series or 3 series sized car. GM really doesn’t have anything on the high end in that size in the US. Thats what they lack.
I don’t see how Cadillac can offer a car that are as sleek as the Lexus cars. Buick seems to have the curves down. Cadillac is somewhat a cross between Sleek and Muscle car. But for that matter GM can market them however they want. I just think Buick or Opel is better suited for that.
As for Infiniti… Many of my friends have 350Zs and G35s. They like them because they are sleek, sporty and reasonably priced. I don’t see Buick’s current strategy competing against the Infiniti cars. More like CTS vs Infiniti. But even there they are missing some things.
I think the Malibu feel short of a home run for a few reasons. Mainly interior options and that ugly Chevy logo on it.
I don’t think its a matter of the cars in the shops. I think it is matter of appeal to buyers. The TL up until this year had a lot of appeal (similar to the new CTS). And Honda had the same appeal regardless of repair history (again I don’t see how that matters, not all customers look at that). None the less the TL is competition. AND GM CAN compete against all of these brands with some careful brand, model and sub model options. There is no reason Buick and Cadillac can’t take on BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Infiniti, Lexus, Acura… while Chevy and Saturn/Pontiac Take on VW, Honda, Toyota, Nissan… That leave Opel to contend with Mitusbishi, Subaru and a few other miscelaneous car brands.
GM can do it but one or two brands have to go.
As to Acura/Honda… most customers don’t look at dyno sheets before they buy a car. They either like the feel or don’t. Some people think that sudden torque of a Vtech is nice. Others like me like turbos or N/A engines better.
Acura TL interior was extremely competitive. Personally I like my brother’s 2004 TL better then the latest TL or even Infiniti or Lexus interiors. This is the reason the CTS interior is so appealing to me (it is very similar in style and layout).
Nate:
The STS was freshened inside and out for the 2008 model year and got a new direct injection engine and 6 speed automatic. You are complaining that GM isnt doing things that have already been done. Its fully competitive with the E class and 5 series. No car gets an interior refresh every two years. Not even your beloved imports.
Sheth,
You are right about the interior. However it is so subtle I don’t even notice the difference between 2006 and 2008. Therin is the problem. That AND the overly simple radio and A/C controls. There is something missing it just looks plain and boring.
As for the engine…. 320 HP from a 4.6L and only 26 MPG… that is disappointing even for that big of a car.
Again Why buy an STS when the CTS is much nicer and more high tech.
What makes it fully competitive with the E class and 5 Series. What does the STS have that the CTS doesn’t?
Nate:
You can visit Cadillac.com and compare the features yourself. The STS comes standard with 302hp and pushbutton start. It also offers auto high beams, magneRide, radar cruise control, heated rear seats and a few other things not on the CTS. Its common these days for cars within the same brand to offer almost identical features. The 3 series has almost every option on hte 5 series.
What makes the STS uncompetitive with the 5 and E class? You tell me.
The STS gets 302hp from a 3.6L and gets 26mpg. The Northstar is old and is likely purchased by a minority of buyers. The V6 is the best deal and most cars in this class are sold with 6 cylinder engines.
Nate:
GM has many fine cars, but we were discussing luxury sport sedan choices for rising professionals and loyal GM base customers.
GM has many fine engines, but again we were discussing those for the successful taste level and rising professionals as well as GM’s base customer.
GM has advanced versions of its direct injection V-8 on the books and maybe even the V-12. These engines could have cyclinder deactivation technology too. Of course we’d like them.
———————————————————-
GM’s current powertrains are still the best in the world. I would still prefer the NorthStar V-8 and the LS V-8 , the 5.3 to any other engines on the market.
Its the body styles that are at issue. Many current buyers are being lured by the cosmetics of the Lexus look, many of them may be female. That’s as direct as it can be said and GM needs to act. GM makes the best cars, but when the customers are saying to their spouse oh but look at the Lexus and its colors, GM had better wake up fast.
The STS colors for 2008 were boring. The Pontiac G8 really needs exposure. GM needs to get an ad or celebrity power behind the G8 to energize the buyers. The slate blue, the dark red, and silver are all great colors for the new G8.
The Pontiac G8 GT turns heads, seeing it on the road is believing. Its a sharp car that needs marketing. Likewise the STS needs marketing.
In order to beat the Camry, GM needs to go after the Lexus on looks with Cadillac. Beating Lexus on looks is the key to a fashion credible image. It makes it more acceptable to buyers to buy a Malibu over a Camry when Cadillac unquestionably offers a prettier car line up than Lexus.
Flagship appeal = more profit for GM.
Saturn has been an investment distraction from GM’s core brands. Of course, everyone likes Saturn’s attractive products like the Outlook, Vue, and Astra, but right now they’d sell better in one of GM’s core brands in order to boost flag ship appeal. Saturn brand seems more like a poor man’s Chevrolet. Pontiac needs to takeover Saturn dealers in the near term and Saturns products dispersed to GM’s core brands. GM can make more profit by building up its core brands. With a stronger Cadillac, GM’s flagship models in its other divisions will improve in sales. If there were a stronger economy, I would be saying it may be ok to keep Saturn. I would prefer that GM build its sales up to the point where it can restore Oldsmobile and maybe even Saturn names, but right now GM should focus on strengthening Cadillac, Pontiac, Buick, and Chevrolet line-ups.
GM should be looking anew at the marketing the STS and the G8 right now to boost its sales. There are many buyers with the money in the market for a sporty luxury sedan that can fit two children in the back seat. GM is missing luxury business, the buyers are unaware of GM’s products. There seems to be a growing awareness of particular SUVs like the Acadia and the Enclave. Going forward GM should add one to more hot alternative sedan style to Cadillac to compete with the Lexus looks.
Many luxury buyers are not going to be pleased with a V-6 offering only. Lincoln is suffering for not offering a V-8 on the MKS and MKZ. Many buyers want want a V-8.
I would buy a NorthStar V-8 or an LS V-8, or the 5.3 with active fuel management over ANY V-6, direct injection or not. A V-6 lacks the feel of a V-8.
“The STS colors for 2008 were boring.”
Agree. Why can’t GM paint cars to exact color specs? If GM expects us to spend many tens of thousands buying a car like the STS, they ought to be able to say, “Tell us what color you want, and we’ll paint it for you.”
Of course, that would only be possible for people who wouldn’t mind ordering a car and waiting for it to be built, but I bet there are many who would do that ~ if GM would let them tailor the car with exactly the options, and interior and exterior colors they wanted.
Why do car companies always expect us to buy only the handful of colors they decide to make available. Paint is paint. If I want an STS painted taiga mauve, why can’t I order it that way?
Think outside the box.
Sample frame the issue rubrics for beating the foreign competition:
Bold
Marketing grid
Subdued
Science
Appeal
Art
convergent-vertical-divergent
Grille option
Waterfall
Vertical-beveled
Tail lights options
convergent-full length-divergent
CTS beveled
Cadillac
Aurora curved
Pontiac GTO 67 look
counterpart
Buick Invicta
Murcielargo/Gallardo
Exotic comparative
Aston Marton
BMW 135i
Foreign competition
Lexus IS
Cadillac Trofeo
Entry Cadillac
Cadillac ?
Brand Mystique
Stylish Image
Quality Perception
Value
NorthStar, Corvette, technology, (eg. the best)
Looks, performance (what will friends say)
Confidence, trust, fuel economy
Features, comfort, price
Narrow assortments are not the answer, perfectly tiered assortments are the answer to the foreign competition, managed in a series eg. Riviera – Eldorado – Toroado.
BMW manages their product line in a series and has been successful 1-3-5-7. GM can do better – combine both techniques together – perfectly tiered assortments managed in a series.
The way to topple the Camry is to unseat the Lexus IS and Lexus ES with Cadillac. Then the Camry will fall on its own. The Malibu and the Buick LaCrosse have the potential to take down the Camry and Accord. Lexus will become a Buick competitor once Cadillac owns the luxury world.
GM should not back away from the V-8 product. Its very important for the to take the Mercedes business and maintain GM’s core luxury appeal. GM’s base will not be satisfied with the V-6 and would be tempted to look outside of GM for allure.
An LS V-8 at Cadillac is a great idea for the performance appeal to lure the Mercedes buyer. At the same time Cadillac should have a 4.0 V-8 twin turbo and a 4 cyclinder twin turbo for appeal. Buick should continue to offer the 5.3 V-8 with active fuel management until GM offers a better V-8 option. GM’s core customer wants a stylish sedan with a V-8.
GM style needs fashion credibility. That means colors with their real names, not just earth tones, but jewel tones to beat Lexus.
Trunk space – don’t be outwitted on practicality. When the LaSabre customers like their trunks better than the Lucerne – they may wait to trade.
Designs need balance – nice fronts and lackluster tail lights and vice versa are a problem – don’t make the head lights too big when the tail lights are too small.
The 1993 Camaro had balance, then the update took the tail light head light out of balance. The Buick Lucerne’s head light is too big for the tail light.
Let them Experience Excellence
Adding Value, improving profit, and raising perception
GM has the best powertrains – let the people know it. GM owners experience excellence, we know GM cars are the best in the world. Bring them into the GM fold with perks like earning credit card points toward free ONSTAR renewal, XM, and vehicle savings accounts.
Heres how you can Buy American.
Edwin,
I don’t limit sport sedans to simply rising professionals. That is certainly one market. But the concept of a sport sedan ranges quite a bit. In my opinion a sport sedan can be any car that is sporty, has a fun factor (whether it is a turbo or a big engine) and has a style that appeals to people in their mid to late 20s and up.
If you are talking successful taste level and rising professionals (aka those with money to burn)… GM doesn’t have anything that particularly jumps out as unique or WOW. The Corvette engines are about it. But as of now they aren’t super high tech (certainly not low tech either.. and they ARE competitive). But as you said there are no small V8s or Turbos, or V12s to offer high end customers.
On the other hand GM has some high tech options that could be marketed to the elitist type crowd. One point I make is that they DON’T and they could. The could offer a premium version of the STS and CTS that even exceeds the V series. I think it would be pretty cool if they sold a 100K version of the CTS with some very special equipment in them …. and only sell maybe 500 or 1000 of them. Drive the supply down and make them in high demand.
________________
Best in the world is arguable. What makes them the best? Are they really that much better then their competition or is it GM marketing hype?
You personally might but you aren’t everyone. Again after reading about the direct injected LS engines (L92) that are going to be in the new trucks. The LS engine is one high tech engine. Imagine variable cam timing in a pushrod V8!!! Who would have thought…
That IS high tech. But that doesn’t mean it should replace smaller engines with the same technology.
Please don’t make statements like GM has the best cars without some validation and criterion for such statements.
Lexus sells because Lexus has established a name for itself and has styling that most people think is incredibly sexy (something GM typically has lacked).
I think Lexus is a very nice looking car. I would buy one (except I want a GM for some dumb reason). Additionally I just saw the 2009 Acura TL for the first time and it is right up there with Lexus with exterior styling (it is different but equally alluring).
The STS is a boring car in my opinion. The interior looks like it was borrowed from BMW (I’m not a fan of BMWs direct and to the point interiors). The STS has a very minimalistic feel to the interior to the point that it just doesn’t fit. I think the problem is that the interior doesn’t match the exterior styling. The exterior is smooth an eloquent. The interior is just over simplified. Perhaps it is my opinion, as I think about it higher end cars like Bently and RR probably have similar interiors. But the STS isn’t a RR or Bently It isn’t priced or optioned exclusively enough for that.
The reason buyers aren’t energized is because the G8 is the wrong car at the wrong time with the wrong looks and wrong features.
No GM needs Buick to go after the looks. The new Caddy isn’t sexy enough. The Buick Allure is though. It just needs the rest of the stuff to back that up such as: Premium engine options, ALL premium interior options and an interior thats styled to match.
What I can’t figure out is this: Why does GM mess with their option packages so much. Why can’t I get a CTS with the same high end options as an STS? Why can’t I get the AWD LaCrosse with the same interior options as the Top of the line LaCrosse model…..
GM does this all the time and it makes no sense. Someone on here pointed out that a 5 series and a 3 series have the same options available. I don’t see why GM doesn’t do that. Some people like one car over another for their own reasons why not offer the most options to sell them on it?
GM truely needs a flagship car other then the Corvette. They need a super high tech car with features no one could possibly need. Something like the Caddy 16… except a production car that could be ordered by people.. Then they can have more realistic flagship like the CTS….
To heck with GM core brands. Its a changing market and requires new thinking, new branding and new models. Why not trim GM down to Three car brands, Corvette and Trucks…. In fact why not make Chevy offer 2 models… a truck and a car. Same with all of them. Imagine someone saying “I bought a Chevy” And right away they know you have a truck because thats all Chevy makes (because it is what they do best). Imagine someone were to say “I bought a Caddy” and you know they bought a CTS or STS…. etc…
Perhaps replacing Saturn with Opel makes sense. Just market Opel has a quality European import. Push Chevy’s low cost brands on saturn customers. Take on a new customer care attitude that people like and GM should be fine.
I dont’ think GM should ever bring back Oldsmobile unless they drop another brand. The car market is to tough to do that… Unless… unless GM assigns one model to every brand and that Brand name becomes the model name (as stated above). Then You go to a GM dealer not a Chevy dealer etc… and you buy a Chevy or Caddy, or Buick, or Opel, or Oldsmobile etc… Making the brand name the model solves a lot of image problems that we’ve been discussing.
How can GM strengthen Pontiac? I think an AWD G6 would be a good thing to compete with Subaru… as would refining their interior to offer a true sport luxury car (but Caddy and Buick do that so why does Pontiac need work at all? Why not ax pontiac?)
The G8 simply isn’t refined enough or stylish enough for people with the money to afford one. It isn’t as nice looking as a BMW or Lexus or Infiniti, it doesn’t have options that are that nice like Buick or Caddy… its kind of a misfit car. It COULD have been a BMW eater but it wasn’t executed quite right.
So what market does the G8 serve?
The Buick Allure could be the alternative to the CTS.
I think V8 is in the minds of people. Today’s V6s for the same power as a V8 (from only a few years ago) are quite comparable. Even the torque on the new V6s are almost where V8s were not long ago. I think there is a mental block in the minds of older people who are used to V8s being the thing to have for bragging rights. GM fights the resistance to change with that.
I’d bet I can make any V8 driver like a V6 with a turbo.
I strongly feel that each engine has its own character. I like I4s, V6 and V8s equally. But from a logic and sense standpoint a Turbo V6 has what I want (as would a turbo I4).
I see my table above posted vertically instead of horizontally. Would be nice to have the preview option restored to the blog.
GM critics in the media use terms like rebadge. Curiously, they don’t apply the term to Lexus and Acura. Lexus achieves most its sales from rebadged Toyotas. Acura likewise receives most of its sales from rebadged Hondas. Lexus and Acura have inferior powertrains. But look how many are fooled by the mind tricks from these foreign brands, they even manage to completely fool the media pundits.
Entry level luxury
The LaCrosse Super could be called the LaCrosse Grand National, that would focus attention for to the younger luxury set. They do recognize GM’s classic names and it causes them to take a closer look at GM. Name awareness helps to build sales. From the pictures, the 2010 LaCrosse and the Malibu are winning designs. I feel its essential for for GM to keep enthusiast versions of its cars, not just in good economic times. The flagship buyers have the money to buy GM cars, they buy more frequently when they are inspired to trade early. .
The new CTS is the world’s most appealing small luxury sedans. Its nicer than the Lexus IS, but on price, Cadillac should have an answer to the smaller Lexus IS which offers a 4 cyclinder. Perhaps, GM could offer a CTS-4 version for the entry level buyer matching the price of the Lexus IS.Perhaps a manual shift 4 cyclinder twin turbo CTS would appeal to this entry level group. Cadillac cannot allow the Lexus IS to take sales at the entry level. The CTS guages are difficult to read over the steering wheel tilt. Please fix this. In the future, GM could offer the small luxury car buyer other choices like a Cadillac version of the 87 Trofeo as an entry level. Young single luxury buyers should be brought into the GM fold.
Cadillac needs to grow in neighborhoods that have multiple new luxury cars in the driveway. The STS proportions are appealing to young couples – rising professionals. This group wants interior room/trunk size without having a ‘big’ car. The DTS is too boxy for them. They are STS buyers and they are difficult to please, but they are Cadillac’s future customer. There income level is such that they seek the top name brands like Cadillac. This group doesn’t care much for cooled seats, they care more about nice seats with nice looking leather and the wood steering wheel. They are fashion conscious, they love the CTS, but the CTS is just too small for their needs like a car seat. This group is a huge market, GM is missing much business in this luxury class. Some of them like luxury with curves like the Aurora style.
Offer a Couples discount
We know the STS V-8 Northstar VvT is truly world class, lets share that with the world in an ad. The Pontiac G8 GT is world class, lets tell the customer about it. GM should raise awareness of these cars in its adds, perhaps advertise them together as a his and hers / couples option. There couples can afford both the STS V-8 and the G8 GT. Many are one income families. They are living the American dream, don’t make them have to look for a foreign brand. This group drives up to the GM dealer in brand new vehicles to shop. Why not have both new cars be from GM? Buy two luxury vehicles from GM and receive a couple’s discount. The LaCrosse Super could qualify for the couples discount.
Comfortable seats should be standard – heated and cooled seats don’t seem to be as comfortable.
the exterior is beautiful, but the interior is very ugly… GM is getting there to make an attractive car that people will buy.. the blue light is pretty stupid. and GM for some reason can’t get away with the giant dash board, the dash board that goes from the drives side to the passenger, my grandpa’s buick always had that and it always looked cheap and pretty dumb
In GM’s Restructuring Plan to the government, on page 70, it shows the Lacrosse offering a 2.4L L4 engine. At the introduction at the Detroit Auto Show, they only talked about a 3.0L and 3.6L V-6.
Will the Lacrosse be offered with a 4 cylinder? If so, what will the fuel economy be?
It’s a nice enough car and I like the “going after Lexus” attitude that GM has for Buick. Done right it could prove profitable. The styling, though is getting a little generic…especially from the rear clip. Otherwise, great job!
the interior and exterior are spot on. this vehicle will absolutely sell extremely well and be a shot in the arm for buick and the entire company. over the past three years GMs products have gotten decidedly better from interiors to exteriors a complete and total improvement. obviously there are other factors bringing the company down, but maybe it took this kind of downturn for the company to realize its strengths and faults and attempt to move forward from there.
I am hopeful the corporation will realize what it needs to do and act fast to respond to market changes and shits. great work on this new buick model!
This wonderful Buick is really one of the main reasons GM and its Empire went downhill so rapidly. The thinking at GM management is very seriously flawed as you can see by the top remarks from Susan Docherty Buick-Pontiac-GMC Vice President!
In its present state this is not a car for the year 2010 and a world in the grip of a serious recession and seriously dwindling oil supplies! Full Stop!! The car must at least be a lot more lighter, offer smaller more economic new power units with more aluminium and ceramic technologies, other gadgets like auto swich off at red lights, free wheeling on overun to reduce emmisions AND at least one modern turbo or bi-turbo diesel power unit with a semi auto/ manual transmission to reduce power losses!
Wake up GM its 2009 and oil supplies and resouces are dwindling and getting more expensive all over the world!
This car needs to be offered in a 4-seat convertible… I’m young (29) and in the market for a luxury 4 seat convertible and would definitely get this if offered. Other than Saab (which is on the way out) GM offers no luxury convertible that seats more than 2.
I’m buying one.
I’m definately buying one. The CXS version has a base price of $33,015 and is a bargain compared to it’s rivals. I’m hounding my dealer so I can be the first in line to get it – loaded!
I bought the new Enclave since it first came out for my wife and she loves it.
In my best Peter Griffin voice … “Lois, this car is freakin’ HOT!!!” A lot of folks have made the mistake of falling asleep on Buick, but I bet they are awake NOW BABY!!! BMW and Mercedes are safe for now, but Acura, Lexus and Infinity should see the GM writing on the wall … with the launch of the new LaCrosse and the new CTS they’re finally going after them! When I hear people say that American cars can’t compete with Japanese and German quality, style, power; I remind them not to forget GM has the new LaCrosse and the Cadillac CTS-V guns in their arsenal. If memory serves me correct, the CTS-V officially pushes out 550hp, but rumor has it that it will actually do 620hp!
Much like a few folks in the above posts, I too would love to see the new LaCrosse as a convertible sedan, but I’d also like to see an optional supercharger much like previously offered in the Regal GS and GSE. And to round the car off Buick, how about offering the Cadillac’s Adaptive Cruise Control … talk about technology! One last thing Buick … kill the “AuqaFresh” blue ambient and instrument lighting in favor of a more vibrant Crystal Blue like that displayed in Volkswagen’s cars.
I can’t wait for the lease on my Lucerne to be up in July – there WILL be a new LaCrosse pulling into my garage the same day … bet on it!
Ted is totally right
copies version of BMW 5 series
i would rather get the bmw instead of this copied
“Much like a few folks in the above posts, I too would love to see the new LaCrosse as a convertible sedan…”
A convertible sedan called the “Wildcat.” Buick really needs to bring back the name Wildcat. What does “La Crosse” mean? Nothing, unless you live in the Northeast where many colleges play the game.
You took a car that was just beginning to look “sporty”, squished it up and made it look like something I wouldn’t buy. Ford could have done a better job designing it.
Ned