It Takes a Village to Raise a Volt: How Community Readiness Can Accelerate the Plug-in Revolution
Today, I’m pleased to introduce Laura Schewel as a guest blogger on FastLane. Laura is the program manager for vehicle electrification at the Rocky Mountain Institute (RMI) , a non-profit energy efficiency organization . RMI is a key facilitator in the development of cross-industry and cross-community plug-in vehicle readiness, which was the topic of GM’s announcement at the Washington Auto Show. In her post, Laura shares her passion about creating a green environment as well as her thoughts about the importance communities play in building an infrastructure for electric vehicles. – Natalie Johnson, Social Media Manager, Advanced Technology Communications.
By Laura Schewel
Rocky Mountain Institute
I spend my every working (and sometimes every waking) hour trying to make the cleaner, greener promise of plug-in vehicles a reality. The barrier that keeps me up at night is not the high cost of batteries or if Smart Grid will happen. It is the fear that there simply won’t be enough plug-in vehicles soon enough to hit the greenhouse gas reduction targets we must hit. I believe that communities are the best bet for overcoming this barrier.
Consumers and automakers are in a chicken-and-egg situation: the uncertainty of consumer demand for a completely new type of vehicle makes it difficult for automakers to commit to plug-ins in significant numbers. This uncertainty, in turn, affects the building of charging infrastructure and other supporting technologies. This, in turn, creates uncertainty in consumer demand, and so on.
Communities can break this logjam by getting “ready” for plug-ins, and aggressively touting their and their citizens’ commitment to the plug-in revolution. By showing that plug-ins will have the infrastructure they need, and that the local community is educated and willing, these communities can encourage automakers to increase production.
Why communities? Making a comprehensive national plan will slow us down. Many cities are already installing demonstration charging stations and converting hybrids, and more write me every day to share drafts of “readiness” plans. Furthermore, the ingredients for plug-in success naturally vary from place to place, and a uniform U.S. approach would be a detriment to natural diversity. Of course, this community-based readiness approach should be paired with a national backbone of open plug and communications standards so that vehicles, products, and services can be operated on a national basis. The federal government should also provide funds for cities to implementing their plans.
What does community readiness entail? First, readiness requires collaboration between many local stakeholders. My short list of the parties who need to be at the table: local government, transportation authority, auto dealers, retailers who own parking lots, local employers, civic groups and non-profits, colleges, utilities and grid operators, electricians, contractors and developers, air quality authorities.
Second, these stakeholders must create a coordinated, multi-year plan that makes owning a plug-in better than owning a traditional car for the first local adopters. We’re developing a long list of ways to do this. A few of my personal favorites: a “plug-in” concierge call-in service for all owners; federal and local incentives bundled at the dealer for immediate cash back; special parking spots; free electricity for your vehicle.
Third, cities need to aggressively communicate their efforts. Communication with citizens should be geared towards quantifying how many plug-ins can sell in each community in the first five years. Sharing that number, and details about the depth of local support with the automakers, is the best way to “prove” elusive projections for consumer demand, and to trigger accelerated production. It can also give the automakers a map of where they should sell their first vehicles, perhaps giving your community access to the limited 2010 and 2011 production plug-ins.
How much is “enough”? There are 200 million light vehicles in the United States. The current planned federal rebate for 250,000 plug-ins covers just over one tenth of 1 percent. That’s good, but not a revolution; nor does it represent a major reduction in greenhouse gases. President Obama’s goal of 1 million plug-ins by 2015 is not a revolution either. We need millions upon millions of plug-ins (coupled with smarter land-use planning to reduce driving, and huge investments in public transit).
Each automaker planning a plug-in needs to feel it has a reasonable chance to succeed, and needs to accelerate production. In addition, we need to get serious about converting existing vehicles to plug-ins, including incentives, creating emissions and safety protocols, and working with automakers for an acceptable solution to warranty and perhaps mutually profit from conversions.
And what do these communities get? They get green collar jobs, a new tool with which to meet air quality goals, quieter streets, and recognition for being a pioneer of a technology that, in my biased opinion, will be the hottest “green” topic of the next five years: the plug-in car.
In the coming weeks my organization, Rocky Mountain Institute, will be launching a major initiative to identify and support communities getting ready for plug-ins. To learn more, please get in touch at: MOVE@rmi.org, attention Laura Schewel. You can also visit us at move.rmi.org/smartgarage for more on our plug-in research.
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“Of course, this community-based readiness approach should be paired with a national backbone of open plug and communications standards so that vehicles, products, and services can be operated on a national basis.”
That sounds nice, but will be difficult when the automakers can’t even agree on a standard.
For example, why can’t the major automakers agree on a standard, modular Li-ion battery that is interchangeable between makes of cars? The makers of regular batteries long ago agreed on standard battery sizes: AAA, AA, C, and D, and a flashlight that uses D cells in the U.S. works just fine with D cells in New Zealand.
With easy-to-access and pull out standard Li-ion batteries, A Volt or Ampera owner could pull into a battery station and quickly swap a discharged battery for a fully-charged, fresh one paying for the difference in KWh’s between the fresh battery and the old one, plus a service charge. So could the owner of a Ford/Chrysler/Toyota/BMW/Mercedes electric.
With standard, modular batteries all cars could use the same battery sliding in and out of a standard battery tray, much as one swaps batteries in a flashlight.
And while you are sitting here discussing this “pie-in-the-sky” Volt car and offering hourly workers buyouts of cash and cars, you are firing salary workers left and right. You refuse to get rid of the contractors, but keep firing your salary staff.
Soon, you will have no one left that cares.
I agree battery standardization should be a strong factor in the electrification of transportation. The flashlight and radio industry did well here while watches, and cell phones, not so good (the later being driven more by design than function). Cell phones don’t even have standardized charging connections. Certainly, less is more here. Avoiding proliferation in battery design will keep cost down, enhance availability, and be more user friendly (consumer confidence). Developing a global standard for battery configuration should not impact the development of infastructure.
How ridiculous do you think GM is? They are on 13 billion life support, yet they’re not cutting salaries of their salaried employees. Honda has cut manager’s wages by 5% for 4 months. Lear has cut 20% of their salaries and implemented 4 day work weeks. Samsung, world’s top electronis maker, also cut executive salaries by as much as 20 percent and said employee benefits will be scaled back as well. Every global automaker and top multinational has cut their salaries, except GM. Do you really need 5 day work weeks during wintertime?
These are the comments I posted on the gminsidenews.com Forum:
I think I can’t hold back anymore, but I really have to say this: There sure are a lot of anti-China and anti-Communist bigots here on this forum (gminsidenews). Ford has done it before. They bought the Rover brand for $35 million from BMW, and they didn’t sell it to Shanghai Auto, which owns the Rover assets; instead, they sold it to Tata with Jaguar and LR. Tata’s not gonna revive the brand anytime in the future. Now the Rover brand is DEAD FOREVER!!! This is all a conspiracy to stop China from becoming strong and powerful. And now they are selling Volvo to Renault. It’s all a conspiracy.
Buying Volvo will give China a world-class safety research center, and this will boost the safety of their cars significantly. And Volvo comes with someone important, Chief Designer Steve Mattin who designd the previous generation S Class, a truly fantastic car which is both majestic and elegant. And look at the new S60 Concept, it’s simply gorgeous! If Shanghai Auto could buy it from Ford and share the RWD Architecture with GM, Volvo would be a BMW beater. Too bad they are too stupid not to buy it, with trillions in Chinese reserve.
It’s no wonder Ford is now losing sales, with billions in debt and a shrinking US market share. Karma has come back to bite them in their asses.
You probably won’t publish this, but I will say it anyhow.
Didn’t you, GM, have an agreement with the government when you took TARP funds that you where suppose to spend your money in the USA ONLY!!!!! However, I just found out that you canceled building the engine in Flint, Michigan and are going to build it in Germany or Austria. Also, the Senate just passed an amendment to the Stimulus Package that ALL goods spent from that will be spent on US goods ONLY!!!! You are slated to provide a fleet of GM Chevy Volts to the government, but you are outsourcing the engine.
I wrote to my Senators, Congressman and President Obama and told them what you are doing.
My husband’s union, Local 599, in Flint, Michigan was slated to build that engine. If they don’t get that engine work he will be out of a job. We will lose our house, cars and everything we own. But, obviously you don’t care about the people who built OUR company. Mr. Wagner…you and your Share Holders on the board didn’t build that company, WE DID!!!!!!!! You would be nothing without us because there would be no GM. My grandfather started working at your Buick Plant in 1930, when you were in your infancy. He and all of the people in Flint where OUR company GM started built that company. That is the same plant my husband works in now building the Colbalt and G5 engines. When he hired in there in 1978 there were 14,000 employees and now there are 500. That’s how much you care about the people who made you.
I stuck up for you when you were trying to get the TARP loan. I wrote on every blog. I pleaded with every House and Senate Member. This is how you treat us???? Well, no more. I’m done sticking up for you. Try to defend yourself.
Interesting, Wendell makes a good point about battery standardization, I think. However, while George seems to support Wendell’s contention his examples on watches and cell phones seem to contradict the point. Cell phone proliferation in particular does not seem to be negatively affected by the differences in battery configuration or charging connections. I think the original point is still valid because of the relatively low cost of cell phones and watches versus the anticipated high cost of a cars Li-Ion battery pack.
Good article, thanks
The roll out of green plug in vehicles, like the roll out of corn based ethanol, has the unintended outcome of more electricity needs, and will require cleaner coal technologies so that the impact to the environment is better. We must look as the whole system, grids, peaks/valleys of power utilization so that it is infact greener, instead of a shift shaft to the pubic psyche.
Kay said: “But, obviously you don’t care about the people who built OUR company. Mr. Wagner…you and your Share Holders on the board didn’t build that company, WE DID!!!!!!!!”
While I understand your frustration Kay, have you thought about the fact that this engine wil be built in Austria by a GM employee? One that has the exact same concerns as you do about job security etc.?
It is difficult to defend building a new plant in a drastically shrinking market for a product that is already being built in an existing plant. IF GM dis this, everybody would complain about a waste of scarce resources. Yes it is overseas but still part of GM. And please keep in mind that meanwhile GM is building and selling the majority of products outside the US…. So the “WE” in your phrase above includes me and the guy in Austria assembling the Volt-engine !
There you go, worrying your pretty little head about electrical socket standards. Perhaps they neglected to cover that subject at Yale, but those standards have been in place in the USA for over 100 years. The real problem here is your president, you know, the new guy, BO. He tells us he wants to bankrupt the coal companies, the combustion of whose product produces about 80% of our electricity, and then he wants to put a million electrical cars on the resulting 20% grid.
Who pays – Community involvement implies making us pay for the smart grid or charging stations. Isn’t this figured into the overall costs of these electric vehicle programs or even the 2008 Energy Bill signed last year by then President Bush? There is supposed to be $50 billion in the Energy Bill someplace.
As for battery standards – I agree with the notion of standardized battery sizes. In fact it’s the first time I ever heard anyone mention it – BRAVO!
As for service stations – What gas stations will be converted to house charged batteries. Is it going to be a self serve model, so after the 3rd year of owning a EV we all have bad backs from changing batteries or will there be a percentage of the 130,000 gas stations in this nation to be converted to exclusively provide electric fuel and when we used to say “filler Up” we now say “pop and few fresh ones in” … and don’t get them wet while you clean bug guts off my windshield…
….this is going to be an interesting transition…
Kay’s comments really touched me. She makes some valid points that in summary illustrate a huge problem in the US. Productivity. Its no secret that the middle class has been dying a slow death across the US for decades. This is the result of an increasing reliance on outsourcing everything from assembly line work to now even software engineers and scientific research. I fully understand the implications of building things overseas from a logistical/financial perspective. But the more jobs that get outsourced, the less money Americans ultimately have in their pockets to buy the products companies like GM, Ford, and others make.
This problem is more than just a financial problem. Its a quality of life and standard of living problem as well. There is an increasing vast swath of the US that’s basically turning into a economic wasteland. This will ultimately spread nation-wide and rear its ugly head in the form of vast economic class disparity, soaring costs of living, and starving public infrastructures. If you don’t believe it, check out places like California where I live now, where such things are already occurring and greatly degrading the quality of life.
If GM makes it, I’d suggest finding more ways to develop, produce, and manufacture products in the US.
Community involvement might take the form of financing infrastructure upgrades with tax-free municipal bonds, to be paid back by charging user fees- it needn’t be done completely on the taxpayer’s dime. There might be a modest increase in local taxes as well, because the upgrades would presumably have a positive community benefit.
I would hope that battery manufacturers would understand that standardized battery pack configurations would benefit them as well, broadening their customer base to include all car manufacturers.
I’m still of the opinion that the eventual solution should involve electrified roadways, featuring wireless power transfer based on the evanescent wave resonant coupling principle (WiTricity)
http://www.fairhome.co.uk/2009/01/14/is-wireless-electricity-eco-friendly/
or inductive transfer
( PRIMOVE) http://www.bombardier.com/en/transportation/sustainability/technology/primove-catenary-free-operation?docID=0901260d800486ab
“I would hope that battery manufacturers would understand that standardized battery pack configurations would benefit them as well, broadening their customer base to include all car manufacturers.”
A nice feature of standard, modular battery packs instead of proprietary batteries for each car maker would be to open up the market to third-party battery suppliers.
If I buy a 2010 Volt with the GM-supplied 16kwh (8kwh usable) battery and then three years down the road Johnson Controls or Interstate Battery designs a battery that can hold 28kwh, I would have the option of upgrading.
That would be much more difficult (and expensive) if the Volt has a GM-made, proprietary battery that fits only the Volt, Ampera, and Converj.
Have the major car makers entertained the idea of standardizing the shape and specs of Li-ion batteries? There are obvious advantages, but of course it would require an unusual amount of cooperation and forward thinking for the car makers.
I don’t get GM’s interest in this.
The whole idea behind the Volt is the end of “range anxiety.” Plug it in at home and drive electrically but you’ve still got unlimited range because it carries a charger right up in the nose of the car.
But all this business about enhancine our plug-in infrastructure (which I think is useful)… That eliminates “range anxiety” for BEVs. This favors any competition which comes along with a BEV.
Why are you trying to eliminate the Volt’s only strategic and tactical advantage?
This sounds like the work of a dreamer without a grounding in the technical end of reality.
More comments to follow.
Wife of a Salary Worker,
You would be amazed what companies can do on a skeleton crew with contract workers. I don’t see why you are so opposed to it. If your husband is hourly and no longer has a job, why wouldn’t he become a contractor and make more money that way?
GMisCARKING,
What are you talking about with China etc… ??
Kay,
If GM builds a plant in the US South will you and your husband move there to build the Volt engines?
GM Employees might have build GM to what it is… but without stock holders and investors and sources of capital who would have been there to pay GM Employees during times of expansion? Also are GM workers willing to do what it takes to run a business? If GM shut down tomorrow would GM union employees organize and start a new car company in the remnants of GM?
Its not merely about the people who made GM its changing with the times and where things are now. Where were the GM Employees who made GM the past 20 years while GM ran its name through the mud.
Members of my town also started a major part of GM with pride and hard work. GM packed up and left our town long ago. One thing that stuck though with many workers in my area is the quality and hard work attitude. People in my town for years refused to compromises on the quality of their work and products… where did this mentality go in GM? Where were the GM workers demanding quality when management wasn’t?
If you want to make claims like you have then GM Employees need to take full responsibility for where the company is now.
Before you make claims as to what GM Employees do and don’t do think about the full story. And if I missed something let me know.
I work in a non union company and if I get laid off or lose my job… oh well I have to go find a new one. What gives union workers the right to think they can make demands and requests as you have posted? They work for the company just as I do. If they don’t like how its run they need to speak up and offer better suggestions or leave and find something else to do. Thats just how it is when you are an employee and not an owner. If I didn’t like the way my company is I’d go find a new job and forget about it… or I’d start a new company and do things my way and build it my way from the groun up. GM Employees have those options.
(please enlighten me because I’m not understanding and wish to try).
Our economy is in a rapid state of change right now and I fear those who can’t change will be left behind. Why is change so tough for so many?
I meant no offense by my comments, just trying to better understand your point of view.
Wayne Arnold,
You are correct that the electrical needs of gasoline free chevy Volt’s will require a HUGE investment in power generation capacity.
Cleaner coal isn’t the best answer.
A huge push toward Nuclear plants and the reprocessing of spent nuclear fuel for use as new fuel is very important. As a reference a modern Plutonium fuel US Navy ship can run for 25 to 30 years on a single fuel load. This same technology can be put into power plants by reprocessing spent Uranium fuel waste to extract the Plutonium from it which can then be re-used as a fuel source in reactors…. what this means is we can get more then one use from a ton of nuclear fuel (which by the way only contains a small percentage of Uranium/ton of fuel material).
Additionally Fusion reactor research is essential. As is the plasma-incineration of garbage in landfills for waste reduction and power generation (currently under testing in New York).
People today have no clue as to the energy requirements of their cars as compared to their houses.
People need to be focused on reality of making it happen and how in such a struggling economy we as a country are going to afford such things.
Chazz,
Are you sure the coal plants produce 80% of our power? What about the 110 odd something nuclear plants that run base loaded every day of the year?
Either way you are right we need better power or to use less of it.
Standardized batteries would be fine except the limitations on design they place on the car. Additionally if we are standardizing on batteries why not standardize on the whole car? Same motors, electronics, chasis etc… let the manufacturer change the body and interior a slight bit. That is the cheapest way to do it. Or why not have them only offer one model… thats the cheapest way.
Do we really need variety?
I doubt such an idea will catch on its just to tough. Not to mention the infrastructure required to charge and swap batteries. But apparently the Tesla already does this.
Edvard,
Th reality is that for a while the middle class lived an upper class life style because of outsourcing. Only now its bitten us. Do you honestly think the middle class can sustain the way we live without outsourcing?
It has all been in the name of profits and retirements… sorry I don’t see how its working at all or ever can.
Outsourcing jobs isn’t the only problem. Outsourcing goods is also a problem unless we make back those lost resources and cash supplies. Over the past 50 years this country has spent over 15 trillion dollars on petroleum alone (that number is an estimate).
Soaring cost of living? Don’t you mean real cost of living? I’m sorry but the US lifestyle has been artificially cheap for way to long. The big problem is people don’t want that, they don’t want to wake up to reality that says they can’t afford that $20K car.
If you look back on history the industrial revolution got us here because machines were found to make work easier and easier and energy became cheaper and cheaper to use at whatever pace we saw fit.
Now that energy and resources cost more do you think that pace will change?
The US isn’t an economic wasteland it relies on people waking up every day and doing what has to be done regardless of their pay.
When was the last time you heard of an American doing a job (because it has to be done in the best interest of the nation) and then not complaining about the pay. I can’t think of much outside the military except maybe WWII days… but look what the threat was.
What happened to the people putting back into the country? Why is it that cities that once were great are now in need or repair and a reboot? Where is the money being spent on maintaining them? Its not people are moving out of cities and building new… just like people buy new cars instead of fixing old ones. The trouble is people want it payed for but aren’t willing to go out there and do it themselves.
Quality of life in CA? Isn’t CA a bankrupt state? And aren’t their cost of livings way way above that of anything else in the country but NY City and Washington DC?
I agree if people aren’t buying cars find other products they need… or offer other services to be done by your begging and complaining workers.
Wendell Mercantile,
Why would GM standardize on batteries that might mean other manufacturers can steal business from them.
The Volt isn’t the only one out there with the idea of a series powerplant. Its ancient technology that anyone can use.
There is a growing concern over the impact batteries such as the one in the Volt have on the environment.
Expect a lot of negative press to be directed at the Volt because of this…
Electric cars are not the answer – people will backlash against Volt.
Kay, Looking at the bigger picture, you’ll see that GM is in a fight to survive as a company, and what you and all our supporters did to stand up with us is important, so thank you. We all want a robust manufacturing base in our home country, but right now we’re also proving to the government and taxpayers that our plan is viable, and that takes some difficult decisions in the short term. This is what you’re seeing in Flint — doing whatever it takes now (the first few engines from Austria was the plan anyway) to bring the US-made Volt to the market as quickly as possible. GM still wants to provide Flint-made engines for the Volt. I hope we can all stick together through this crisis and do what’s needed to come out a stronger industry.
“Why would GM standardize on batteries that might mean other manufacturers can steal business from them.”
On the other hand, why would consumers buy vehicles with non-standard battery packs? You have to consider the trade-in value, and battery packs that aren’t readily available from aftermarket sources after 5 or more years will greatly diminish the residual value of a hybrid or electric car.
Nate asked: “Why would GM standardize on batteries that might mean other manufacturers can steal business from them.”
Why did GM, Chrysler, and Ford agree to standardized oil filters, spark plugs, tire sizes, fuel and air filters, or antifreeze, or the types of fuel their cars can burn? (And yes, I realize there are several different shapes of oil and air filters, as well as tires and spark plugs. But, they are standardized.)
Using your line of thinking, in order to maximize profit, all GM cars should be made to use proprietary, made-to-fit parts that only GM can supply.
The main reasons to use a standard size, modular battery across the car transportation industry are 1. Economies of scale, and 2. To open the market to after-market, third-party battery suppliers who might have a better idea or offer a more competitive price.
Car Fan,
I’m not sure why Lithium and Plastics are a big deal. They aren’t that environmentally dangerous. Lithium does have the ability to convert water to hydrogen and can under the right circumstances catch things on fire in its pure form. Just like Sodium and Potassium can.
It should be pretty clear by now that there ARE no EASY CLEAN answers. Only more questions.
Robyn Henderson – GM Communications,
I agree with you everyone wants US manufacturing. But doesn’t the reality pop its head out and scream at anyone else? Unless GM can get its costs in line with imported goods there is no way GM will survive in the current market unless it significantly downsizes and or makes its products SOO good that peoples top buying foreign.
Additionally I’d be more apt to buy if I knew the engine is made in Austria rather then Michigan. I have severe doubts as to the quality of parts produced in the US. Austrians have a reputation that is hard to match especially with engines.
On the other hand if GM can prove that US made engines are better I’m all for it. I’m merely looking at reality as it is.
Beaugrand and Wendell Mercantile,
If GM standardizes on batteries (which I think is a great idea)… why not standardize on more. Why should GM develop all its own “other stuff” why not collectively use the resources of Ford and Chrysler. Isn’t this what GM did to develop its current line of 6 speed transmissions for cars? (GM-Ford venture??)
The real problem though is with storage capacity. Its very tough from an engineering point of view to package such batteries in modules that allow for different car designs. There have been articles I’ve read about cars packaging batteries every where they could even under the carpets just to get enough power out of them. That by itself is an issue.
Then again look at Tesla Motors they are going with Battery Packs that are interchangeable. It is merely a new way to think about things. Similar to swapping a propane tank out.
Well I wouldn’t call it standardize rather that they produce such volumes of cars they CAN have their own part numbers. Additionally the sub contract things, and often in design you look at what is out there rather then reinvent it. Such would be the case of spark plugs or air filters or even to an extent oil filters. But on the flip side why are there 50 of each style sold by 5 to 20 manufacturers? That seems very standardized….
Now on the other hand bolts are a different story as are tires.
I thought almost all GM cars were already made with proprietary made to fit parts that only GM and its licensed suppliers can sell.
I mean a Ford engine doesn’t drop right into a GM car. Nor does a Ford Transmission, Engine computer, gauge cluster etc… about the only thing that is standard are fluids and things like windshield wipers and tires. Of course headlights etc.. again all these are designed for one manufacturer and then become off the shelf by their vendors that other manufacturers can use.
I hardly see where the standardizations are.
Many aftermarket companies are also vendors for GM and Ford etc.. Sure there is some competition but take a good hard look at your GM and tell me how many GM only parts there are.
Just go to your local aftermarket auto parts store like Napa or Pepboys and ask for an A/C or heating servo motor or even an exhaust manifold…. I guarantee they tell you it is a dealer only part. I should know I’ve fixed enough GMs to know which parts are usually dealer only items.
Nate said: “Lithium does have the ability to convert water to hydrogen and can under the right circumstances catch things on fire in its pure form. Just like Sodium and Potassium can.”
Nate,
There is a question of how robust the case for Li-ion batteries will be and whether they will remain intact after a high-speed head-on collision or T-bone crash. If the battery case bursts and scatters its contents, would it create any special environmental problems for bystanders and first responders?
Semi-trailers carrying Li-ion batteries have to display a HAZMAT placard to warn first responders in the event of a crash, so they can use the proper fire fighting and rescue techniques.
How will first responders know a car has a Li-ion battery so they can use the proper techniques when responding to a car crash? Spraying water on a fire resulting from the scattered contents of a Li-ion cell may not be the best practice. Have USDOT and the EPA yet addressed the issue of whether cars with Li-ion batteries will need to display a special HAZMAT placard to warn firefighters?
Kay,
I have appreciated all of your blog comments and agree on nearly every point. I believe I read that GM only postponed plans to build engines in Flint, because they do not have the liquidity now to embark on that project. Engine manufacturing capability in Europe exists now that presumably can support early launching of the Volt. I believe we can look for more manufacturing volume in America when the Volt and other Voltech products hit the market. I am still firmly convinced that American Manufacturing in America is crucial, and the only path to regaining our economic viability. Every wage cut, and every layoff removes another consumer from the economy, which is consumer based. Good paying jobs translate directly into buying power and tax revenue. We should want this for our fellow Americans if we want America to succeed.
Blue Wing,
I’m no expert on Lithium Polymer batteries but from what i know of chemistry and have seen of the manufacturing process. Lithium is made into a sheet foil like aluminum foil you buy at the store (perhaps thinner) and then layered in between a special plastic film. That said I imagine structurally they are pretty stable. Chemically I’m not sure whether the lithium making up the sheet is pure or alloyed with other materials to give it better properties for battery use. All of this could change its reactability.
That said its conceivable that simply finding the right liquid to react any scattered debris with could neutralize the Lithium into a compound that is similar to its natural state. Again I have no idea what state Lithium is found in nature but I imagine as reactive as it is it wouldn’t be hard to put it back to that state. This COULD make cleanup easy.
Perhaps this type of question is better directed to someone more familiar with Hazmat training. Or with a better chemistry background then myself. I am an Aerospace engineer with a small chemistry background… not a chemist or chemical engineer.
I imagine first respondents will have to be trained for Li-Po batteries and assume every car COULD be Li-Po powered. For now though there are only a few out there using them… all of which have a unique style and shape that should make them hard to mistake.
Again I’m not sure that spraying water on Lithium is a great idea. As I understand it Lithium is right up there on the periodic table with Potassium (K) and Sodium (Na). Both of which in their pure state will actually strip the hydrogen away from water releasing hydrogen gas. In the case of Sodium (Na), the Sodium pulls one hydroxide ion from the water (splitting H20 into H + HO). It then recombines to make Sodium Hydroxid (NaOH) and leaves one free hydrogen atom to escape as a gas. I’m not sure if Lithium behaves this way or not. However I remember to a high school demonstration where a very very small quantity of pure Sodium was placed into a plastic soda bottle with its top cut off. It reacted so violently and with so much heat that it ignited the hydrogen gas being released with a loud bang. The bottle was properly vented so it wasn’t dangerous. But it sure woke anyone sleeping in class up.
Again I’m not sure if Lithium does this or not…..
Nate,
The chemistry of lithium is close to that of sodium and potassium. You wouldn’t want to drop a piece of pure lithium in water, or spray water on a lithium fire. This is from Wikipedia: Lithium metal is flammable and potentially explosive when exposed to air and especially water, though it is far less dangerous than other alkali metals in this regard. The lithium-water reaction at normal temperatures is brisk but not violent. Lithium fires are difficult to extinguish, requiring special chemicals designed to smother them.
Of course the lithium in the Li-ion batteries is not in its pure form, but if truckers hauling Li-ion have to put a HAZMAT placard on the side of their trucks to warn first responders, it only seems logical plug-in electrics such as the Volt would also need such a HAZMAT placard.
Here’s what I found about fighting lithium battery fires:
* If battery contents burn, a caustic smoke, containing lithium oxide will form. Avoid skin contact and inhalation. Wear full protective clothing including a helmet; a positive pressure, self-contained breathing apparatus (SCBA); a bunker coat and pants; a face mask; and a protective covering for exposed areas of the head.
* Water may be used to extinguish packaging fires if batteries have not ruptured; water is not an effective extinguishing agent for a battery fire.
* For small fires involving the battery [extinguishing] media such as Lith-X or copper powder may be used, but should be applied with a long handled tool. Do not use CO2 or Halon directly on a battery fire as the exposed surface of the contained lithium may react with these materials.
* For larger fires involving lithium batteries, copious amounts of water may be applied, from a safe distance, to control the fire and protect adjacent materials and facilities.
It seems clear to me that a first responder arriving at a crash involving a car such as the Volt should immediately be able to know what he or she is dealing with. I know it’s not my decision, but it looks like cars such as the Volt should have HAZMAT placards in easy view.
Blue Wing,
Hazmat placards will inspire consumer confidence…..
There is no easy solution to our energy needs it appears…
“Hazmat placards will inspire consumer confidence…..”
Right, no easy solutions. I’m sure GM will be lobbying hard saying the Volt doesn’t need HAZMAT placards, while the lobbyists for the firefighters will be fighting equally hard saying the safety of first responders requires them when they arrive at a crash scene involving a car with Li-ion (or Li-Po) batteries.
I hope the final answer doesn’t depend on the power of each group’s lobbyists and their political connections, but instead is based on common sense and safety concerns.
Blue Wing,
I don’t think it’ll go that way. I think they’ll just opt to subsidize training programs for fire departments etc…
It will be interesting none the less….
Let’s see…
You think that GM would rather subsidize the training of tens of thousands of first responder units across the country, than put HAZMAT placards the Volt ~ placards that would probably cost less than $5.00.
If they’re going to spend big bucks to avoid using HAZMAT placards, I bet they’ll spend it on lobbyists to get the rules changed.
Bleu Wing and Nate,
Today’s cars don’t need HAZMAT placards do they? But yet, when tanker trucks are on the highway they need placards saying they are carrying flammable cargo. I bet the same thing will happen with the Volt.
Plus, if I was a firefighter walking up to a car crash, I would identify the car as a Volt and then I would know what I’m dealing with. It takes all of about 2 seconds to remember that a Volt has a Li-Ion battery. If a firefighter can’t remember that, then I don’t think I want them saving my life and giving my first medical attention. And if you are going to say “well what if the car is unidentifiable after a crash” In that case, I don’t think that placard is going to be anywhere to be found.
Lastely, if you hate Lithium batteries so much, why don’t you go out and invent a better battery for the same price?
Re: Hazmat placarding:
Tank wagons carrying gasoline are required to be placarded, automobiles are not.
The presence of gasoline is assumed in a vehicle crash, and will be assumed in a vehicle crash when the vehicle badging says Hybrid. That badging also alerts first responders to the danger of high voltage circuits that could be encountered while, for example, cutting the vehicle apart to rescue a trapped occupant.
Re: Interchangable batteries:
Yeah, that was my idea quite a few years ago, before the idea of a “range extender”. We were at that time anxious about the range of the EV-1.
I promoted the concept of leasing a battery from an energy supplier.
(1) If a trip was necessary that was longer than the range of the battery, the owner would pull into a “Battery Station” (think “Gas Station”) to have it swapped out. With standardized batteries and connections it could be done as fast as filling a gasoline tank is done today. The battery station would be responsible for recharging the battery and any reconditioning that was necessary.
(2) Years after purchasing the vehicle the consumer would not be stuck with a worn out battery and a large expense to replace it. The battery is leased, and the lessor would be responsible for providing replacement batteries and recycling spent ones.
It still may be a good idea.
Tim,
I don’t hate Lithium batteries. I was simply stating some facts about the chemistry of them (to the best of my knowledge).
Val,
That idea is pretty good. Its not the first of its type either. Propane cylinders do this as do compressed gases such as Argon, Helium, Nitrogen, Oxygen and Acetylene. You basically pay service contracts which helps to maintain the fleet of tanks.
That idea is probably the best way to solve the electric problem. But warehousing batteries is a lot tougher then gasoline. Additionally the charger in the car would need to be modular so that as batteries evolved so could the car.
“Lastly, if you hate Lithium batteries so much, why don’t you go out and invent a better battery for the same price?”
You sure jump on something when you get a hold of it don’t you?
Who said anything about hating lithium batteries? My point was that if the battery cases aren’t robust enough to stay intact during a high-speed crash, will we be prepared to handle the contents that get scattered around?
I don’t even know if it’s a potential adverse issue, but I do know the prudent thing is to think about it and plan ahead. If GM has thought through the issue and already has an answer, someone from the Volt team could jump in and set us all straight ~ but so far we haven’t heard from them.
Nate,
That comment was more towards Blue Wing. I understand there are going to be risks with batteries, but that’s what we’ve got now. Plus, why worry about placards? I mean, if they are deemed nessary then, that’s what we’re going to have to deal with (like you said, there is no easy answer to our energy needs). But otherwise, don’t blame GM for regulatory problems.
Val,
While that is a good idea, and like Nate said, it already in practice in Propane and other gases. However, I’m not sure it would work with batteries. Maybe the Volt’s battery pack will be extremely robust, but as you probably know, any battery today degrades at it gets older – it can’t store as much energy, and can’t deliver it as quickly as it gets older. Lets say the Volt (or any electric car) has been out for 3 years, but I just bought mine yesterday. Today I need to go get a battery change, and they take out my brand new battery and replace it with a 3 year old one that’s just about to be recycled. My guess is, that 3 (or 5 or 10 whatever the case may be) year old battery will not perform like my brand new one I just got with my car. If they can find a way to make that happen, great, but I don’t see it happening. It’s a good idea, but I personally wouldn’t want to trade my 40 mile battery for one that’s got 150k on the clock.
“It’s a good idea, but I personally wouldn’t want to trade my 40 mile battery for one that’s got 150k on the clock.”
It’s an issue of how many kWh the battery holds, not how old it is. When turning a battery in, the service station would meter how many kWh is in that battery, then meter how many kWh are in the charged battery they install, and charge for the difference at same rate per kWh. They would also charge a fee for the service.
When you swap propane, oxygen, or acetylene tanks are you concerned about whether you’re getting a virgin tank or that it’s one that 40 other people have used? No, you care how much gas it holds.
The issue here is how many kWh the battery holds. An older battery might well hold fewer kWh, but when swapping for that battery, you would pay only for the kWh it holds, not it’s theoretical capacity when new.
Wendell,
That’s a good point. I don’t know enough about batteries, but will an older battery hold the same kWh, but yet, won’t deliever it all? I don’t know. I mean the battery in my laptop is 500 mAh (just throwing out a number) when new and will last ~2 hours, but when I recharge it when it’s old, will it still take 500 mAh for a full charge and yet only last ~30 minutes or will it only take 500-400 = 100mAh?
I’m still not sold on how they would know within a few minutes exactly how much energy is still left in that battery.
That badging also alerts first responders to the danger of high voltage circuits that could be encountered while, for example, cutting the vehicle apart to rescue a trapped occupant.
Very good point Val. If I can summarize, these seem to be the potential HAZMAT issues with cars using Li-ion batteries:
1. Will the battery case be robust enough not to rupture and scatter its contents during a high-speed crash? Will the battery case be robust enough not to crack during a low-speed crash? It would be discouraging to have to pay for a new battery if the case cracked during a relatively minor fender-bender.
2. If the case does rupture and the battery scatters its contents, would there be any environmental or safety concerns?
3. If an Li-ion battery catches fire, do first responders need to take any special precautions? Would they need special fire-fighting techniques? Would they need respirators because of the smoke?
4. How will first responders handle the electricity stored in the battery? Would there be any danger to first responders or the passengers in the car from severed cables, exposed contacts, or cutting into a battery cable during emergency extraction as Val suggested? (Perhaps GM will need to install an accelerometer in the Volt battery circuit. The high g-forces of a sudden stop such as a crash could then cause an automatic shut down of the battery and all electrical circuits.)
5. How will first responders recognize cars with Li-ion batteries, and who will train them how to respond? Will cars with Li-ion batteries need HAZMAT placards?
Tim
The easy solution for you is to make a new battery optional on purchase of the vehicle. Even in the Propane and Gas Cylinder business they inspect and maintain the fleet of tanks to make sure they are all up to standards. They repaint old tanks, pressure check them and in the case of Gas Cylinders even track how many times they have been filled.
There is no reason not to do with with batteries. The Volt batteries SOUND like they will be smart batteries so they will know how they’ve been used/maintained. There is no reason not to simply check and re-certify batteries. When they fail they go to the recycling station and are replaced by new batteries. This is exactly how gas cylinder tanks are leased. You basically pay to have a tank thats up to standards.
That said who would care if its an old or new battery as long as it meets the specs. As mentioned earlier by GM they have a battery that is roughly double the capacity of what they claim (according to a post here by someone on the volt team). So GM has already built in a small margin of room for batter degradation.
The concept of new is psychological in this example. The concept would work well if the logistics of it could be figured out.
To bad we can’t simply hook a trailer to the car with fresh batteries in it. It would be very easy then to switch batteries.
Wendell Mercantile,
Battery life IS a effected by the number of times its been charged and the age of the batteries. In the case of Li-Po batteries how they were charged and discharged can effect them as well (this is why they have special charging circuits). It isn’t simply a matter of how many KWh the battery holds. Battery life is monitored in Volts. it is nearly impossible to measure KWHs of charge IN a battery or even the Amps. If a battery were perfect with no losses or degradation over time Voltage would directly indicate charge with nothing hooked to the battery. Additionally Voltage drop with respect to charge is almost always a non linear function. Meaning that the lower the voltage gets the faster the battery goes dead for the same power usage.
Now factor in real world battery life where the age and cycles and duty of the battery are variables and now predicting battery life is tough without discharging it to test it (which is what auto parts stores do now).
A battery inspection station would require a power converter to basically record and analyize how a battery behaves under discharge. It would then use that battery to charge other batteries (with small losses hopefully).
But such a scheme would work if it weren’t for storage, moving and processing of batteries.
The real problem is knowing the difference in batteries. They can’t know that unless they know how much is in it to start with which requires draining it (to my knowledge). Perhaps a pay for the full charge and a refund or credit for anything extra in it that is pulled out at testing? Or maybe a top off fee (which is how the local places fill large propane tanks).
With swapping the problem becomes this:
I’m going on a 100 mile trip and want a full 40 mile charge. I go to the local station and they only have a 36 mile charge battery in stock. Now what? (sure the Volt has a gas engine but we’re ignoring that to explore this charging concept).
Overall the idea is do-able if we can figure out how to swap batteries and where to store/charge them.
“I’m still not sold on how they would know within a few minutes exactly how much energy is still left in that battery.”
Tim,
GM must have solved that problem because they say the ICE will kick-in when the battery has dropped to an energy state of 8 kWh remaining.
Actually, I think we’ve become pretty sophisticated at knowing how much energy is stored in a battery and at recording the history of the battery. The Li-ion battery in my daughter’s Apple computer recently quit holding a charge. I took it to an Apple store, and they were able to hook it up to one of their computers and diagnose the problem within just a few seconds. They could look at a complete history of its charge-discharge cycles, how many times it had been in deep discharge, and how much energy it was capable of delivering. Result: They found the battery was not capable of performing to specs; that my daughter had not abused it. They gave us a new battery under warranty.
I’m sure GM is capable of building equivalent technology into the Volt and its battery.
Re: swapping and leasing batteries.
I think a few folks may have missed the part about range anxiety that has largely been solved through the development of a “range extender”. These devices are currently made to operate on gasoline or Diesel internal combustion engines, or hydrogen fuel cells. The range extenders will make the “battery station” economically unfeasible. I do not believe a sufficient number of people will opt to pull off the highway to swap battery packs once or twice an hour when they can just as well continue along their way for another several hundred miles.
However, leasing the batteries may still be a good idea. If consumers lease the battery they will never have “age anxiety”. I suppose the lease deal would grant the consumer one battery replacement per unit of time (1-2 years) or perhaps some kind of metered service based on charge/discharge cycles.
When the conditions for replacement are met the consumer would receive a battery that is warranted to hold a minimum amount of energy over a given number of months.
Secondary customers that purchase the vehicles on the used market will also not have age anxiety and will be willing to pay more for a 3 year old vehicle than they would if it contained the original battery. That’s good for the resale market, and good for the primary customer.
As for the battery losing capacity as it ages, that could be an issue. However, battery technology is advancing. At replacement time the consumer may have the option of a smaller, lighter battery with the same energy capacity or a full size battery with greater capacity.
Thanks for the comments.
Val
Val,
The whole point of electric is to not use fossil fuels (which people use anyway to make electricity). The whole concept of a range extended almost makes no sense in your example. Why wouldn’t GM simply make a high mileage vehicle?
The whole issue with people swapping batteries is about running entirely on electric so they don’t need to (directly) buy fuels.
Just as an exercise please think about which is better: Starting a trip on battery and ending on fuel or starting on fuel and ending on electricity?
The real issue here is the person who decides to take a trip on an uncharged Volt battery and wishes to not use fuel. Even if the range extender (primary power) runs will it recharge the battery completely? Another words does it offer enough extra capacity to charge the battery and run the car or only run the car?
The whole discussion was about used vs new batteries in new and used cars. Some people think new is the only way to go. But suggesting an exchange program makes a lot of sense.
The whole idea of battery leasing is that it off loads battery maintenance to an entity that can specialize in it. That way if a battery fails prematurely it is replaced. And the fleet of batteries is incrementally kept up to date with the current batteries and old ones being properly recycled. Of course this would allow for battery swapping using very simple tracking systems and charging circuitry. With all that said why wouldn’t people want to lease batteries?