More Follow-up Responses from Fritz
Chevrolet Volt vs. Other Battery- and Hybrid-Electrics:
A lot of folks asked about the Chevrolet Volt.
We call the Volt a no-compromise electric vehicle because it gives you the ability to save gas and reduce emissions without sacrificing performance, size, features or range. With the Volt, there isn’t the “range anxiety” you can have with a pure electric vehicle. In fact, with a full battery and full tank of fuel, you can drive the Volt more than 300 miles – up to 40 of them in pure electric mode. Beyond that, the engine generator kicks-in and produces electricity to extend the Volt’s range to more than 300 miles. To keep going, you simply refuel the Volt the way you would a traditional car, which is something you can’t do with a pure electric vehicle. Of course, you can also plug-in and recharge the Volt’s battery at any point to get up to another 40 miles gasoline-free.
As to whether 40-miles of pure-electric range is enough, consider that nearly 80 percent of Americans commute less than 40 miles per day, which means they could own a Volt and drive gas- and emissions-free all the time. If you want a bigger pure-electric range, you’ll need a bigger battery – and a more expensive car, because for electric vehicles, the battery is the most expensive component.
Also, remember that the Volt isn’t like a typical hybrid. The Volt has an electric drivetrain with an engine generator that sustains the battery charge when the battery is depleted, so it still drives electrically even when the engine is running. Most other hybrids have both engines and batteries that power the wheels – basically, a mechanical drivetrain with an electric assist.
Hydrogen:
Several of you asked questions about our hydrogen fuel cell strategy, and if we still plan on bringing hydrogen-powered vehicles to the consumer market.
We still think hydrogen is a key to solving the nation’s mid-to-long term issues with energy security, reliance on petroleum and greenhouse gas emissions. We’ve logged more than 750,000 miles with Project Driveway, the industry’s largest demo fleet of more than 100 hydrogen-powered Chevrolet Equinoxes. Through Project Driveway, we’ve already made improvements to the vehicle’s regenerative braking system, which is also used on the current Chevy Tahoe and GMC Yukon two-mode hybrids. Fuel cells have several hundred repeating elements that need to be thermally managed, and we’re also applying that thermal design knowledge to the Chevy Volt battery design.
Just last week, we participated in the Hydrogen Road Tour, driving a hydrogen fuel cell Chevy Equinox on a 1,700 mile road trip along the west coast of the U.S. and Canada. Along the way we had the chance to stop in 28 cities, inviting people to take test drives of the vehicle and answering questions about the future viability of hydrogen. Activities like these provide valuable insights into the future development of hydrogen technology, and we recognize that we need to stay on the cutting edge of this in order to remain competitive in the future.
There are still many hurdles to overcome before hydrogen-powered vehicles can become widely available to the masses, such as the lack of a comprehensive hydrogen infrastructure and the current high cost for the fuel cells. But we are working through these and other issues with industry, government and fuel providers. In the near term, we’re aggressively developing extended-range electric, plug-in hybrid, hybrid and flex-fuel capable vehicles, since they offer the best chance to immediately reduce our dependence on petroleum-based fuels.
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Mr Henderson, are the VOLT Cruz mules generating data on battery range that support GM’s target of 40 mile unassisted range for VOLT itself? ps I saw the Cruz and the new GM’s at the NY autoshow–all look super!
Mr Fritz,
I’m impressed that you are using the GM blog way more so than GM execs in the past. That’s a smart move and it shows signs of being transparent. I definitely appreciate that.
In regards to partially or entirely electric vehicles, I’m glad to see that you all are working on both. I work out here in Silicon Valley and it seems that every other week we hear of a new electric car startup who claims they will have a low cost all-electric car in 2-3 years. Of course we have Tesla. 10% of that company was bought by Daimler Benz. As someone who has been here awhile, I can see electric cars possibly becoming the next “big thing” out here. The most recent is the Coda electric sedan which is a Chinese car with a US designed electric power train.
So as you can see, a number of these companies are cooperating with one another to finish the product. To me it would seem worthwhile to consider teaming up with some of these companies or working on licensing deals. I know that GM now has the largest battery development facility in the US, but perhaps that isn’t the only way to develop the technology needed for these cars.
Personally I think all-electric drive trains are where cars are heading. The Volt is definitely a step in the right direction, but its also sort of like a bike with training wheels. The sooner we can get rid of any dependence on oil the better and if you look at what’s happening in the industry, this is becoming more of a reality and less based on ideas that amount to little more than vaporware.
Enough with overhyping the Volt, it was cool when the concept came out, you should have had a working prototype when it was out and a production version on sale at the beginning of this year, then people would have cared and gotten more excited. You’ve basically overhyped it to the point where it’s becoming obsolete, especially with GM’s image now. It’s not a car worth overhyping and waiting for like the Camaro, a car that is stylish, powerful and exciting, something the Volt isn’t. Instead of following in Toyota’s and Honda’s footsteps in hybrid technology and design, how about creating an exciting hybrid for a change? Maybe applying the Volt’s technology to the Camaro, CTS or the G8? Then you’ve significantly upped your game on the hybrid scene. While the Volt has an edge over its competitors, remember what its going up against, you have the well established Prius, the affordable Insight, the more practical Fusion Hybrid and the more exciting VW Jetta Diesel. So far, the only way the Volt has an edge over them is the fact that it has next generation hybrid technology and is closer to being an all electric car than the rest of the competition.
“…up to 40 of them in pure electric mode.”
What is the actual range in the pure electric mode when the driver uses powered equipment such as the heater, defroster, headlights, sound system, air conditioner, etc? All of those will consume energy from the battery, and are things most drivers will want to use.
Isn’t the realistic, real-world, pure electric range of the Volt going to be something less than 40 miles? Isn’t the constant claim of pure electric range as “up to 40 miles” somewhat disingenuous?
Rex:
Claiming 40 miles of range is no different than the EPA claiming you can get 50mpg in the Prius as long as you drive the way they drive in their test cycle. In any hybrid rapid acceleration, use of AC, extended coasting, etc. can adversely affect mileage. If you load the Volt down and crank up the AC you probably wont get 40 miles on a charge. All of these claims are based on ideal test conditions. C&D tested a Prius and only averaged 42mpg vs the EPA’s claimed 50mpg. Why? They drove it like a normal car, not a hybrid.
Mr. Henderson,
Like Edvard, I also appreciate the GM blogs. Smart information gathering tool (good and bad). I have heard you mention electric cars, bio-fuel cars and hydrogen cars for cutting edge technologies. What about Solar? Solar is cutting edge technology. Millions to be had from the Department of Energy. GM thinking about incorporating Solar into models anytime in the near future? I would think that if High Schools and Universities can design and make solar powered vehicles, that GM would also be able to. Truly cutting edge.
“All of these claims are based on ideal test conditions.”
Of course they are. Wouldn’t it make more sense (plus establish some much needed credibility) to make claims that are more congruent with how normal people drive?
GM’s response on hydrogen fuel cells FCV with the Equinox that runs on H2 doesn’t seem to address hydroxy gas HHO booster questions.
We are hearing of people (and watching on U-Tube) making onboard electrolyzers running off the alternator that convert water to hydrogen gas used to supplement internal combustion engines and some claim it boosts fuel economy as much as 20-60%. The HHO booster process appears to be much less costly and requires no infrastructure. The internet is filled with sites, this one lists sources models, devices, and demonstrations, eg:
http://www.greenfuelh2o.com/
The makers claim these devices work and they demonstrate them online for a few hundred dollars. Can GM verify and inform people of this technology?
The autochannel also raised this question:
Why Not H2 ICE?
Adoption of either of these technologies would allow everyone to replace oil based products by burning H2 from metal hydrides, or Enginuity’s mixture of H2 and steam, these technologies would allow the automakers to build (and maintain) vehicles with the tried and true ICE instead of exotic Fuell Cells which at present get their H2 from Oil Company Products instead of God’s water supply.
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/10/06/145024.html
Will GM let Toyota beat them to the announcemnt on HHO boosters?
What if you combined electric with solar?
“What if you combined electric with solar?”
Petra,
Unfortunately, it takes a large area of solar panels to supply only a small amount of energy in the form of electricity. If the roof of the Volt were covered with a solar panel, it would take nearly two weeks of being parked in the Sun to collect enough photons for just a single-charge. It’s possible of course, but few people would willingly wait two weeks between 40-mile trips.
The only successful solar-powered cars so far have been literally covered in solar panels and had to be made very light. Solar-powered car
I will say I’m excited about the Volt; I’d burn no gas and have electric car acceleration (whereas the Prius creeps to 60 mph). With the desire to be high mileage and have fun I’d sure hope the Volt has an “eco” button like the Insight for when people want to be eco and when they want to accelerate like a bolt!
Fritz,
Something tells me the method developed for testing the Volt and coming up with a 40 mile pure electric-only range is akin to the old horsepower ratings system in SAE-gross…… average family sedans were rated at 350 horsepower.
Be honest – tell us what average typical drivers can expect in all electric mode with the A/C, radio, wipers, and headlights are on in stop and go trafic.
>>>> Be honest – tell us what average typical drivers can expect in all electric mode with the A/C, radio, wipers, and headlights are on in stop and go traffic. <<<<
I’ll second that Joe D. Please give us the expected range under normal driving conditions instead of an “up to” number under ideal conditions. After all, how many people drive under “ideal” conditions?
You’re the “new GM” of transparency and open communications, so please be honest with us.
All your effort on Volt won’t succeed if you can’t sell Volt for around $20-$25K. Got to be competitive with Toyota. Also Make sure u start with new marketing theme, fire your current marketing and purchasing folks. Empower your Hybrid engineering groups and engineering groups. Get rid of your upper management…again as i have said in past blogs, your purchasing, marketing, HR and IT sucks and so does your upper management execs. By the way what happens to executive retention bonuses when those executives leave, you get them back?? Like Bo Anderson – leaving the company while telling his underlings keep working hard and we will turn around. He left as soon as he got an opportunity. Again, very sad….You need to fix your organization.
I noticed every time I’m on the freeway, that the Prius’ are always in the fast lane speeding.
Mr. Fritz,
How can you claim emission free 40 miles when all you have done is move the emissions from the front end (driver/user end) to the back end (power generation side where customers don’t see the emissions impact they have)?
Caps,
I couldn’t agree more… GM has always had a problem delivering a concept to reality in a manor that keeps my attention. The Solstice was an example… when it was conceived it was ground breaking.. by the time it came out it was average.
The Converj is what GM needs to bring out SOON…. bring out a gas powered one and then later a hybrid… at least that way there can be some wow factor to the hybrid when it comes out in a year or two.
A CTS hybrid would well be worth it in my opinion even if a mild one like the Aura had… just something to boost the mileage above 30 MPG….
Edwin,
HHO boosting is most likely smoke and mirrors. If you do the thermodynamic analysis of it you will probably see it is a net energy loss process. Even if it is not I have found no creditable, properly performed scientific experiments to justify or support claims that are seen on YouTube. I challenge someone to find or create an experiment that scientifically proves this technology.
As to H2 in ICEs… how would you deal with the detonation issues associated with H2 and how would it be cheaply generated?
HHO booster is kind of a crock. It can work, if you change the fuel mapping and lean the motor way out. Of course this is detremantal to the life span of the motor because hydrogen burns faster and a lot hotter than gasoline. The steam method is an attempt to keep cylinder chamber tempatures at an acceptal level, but it also introduces another problem. Water in a super heated form is really ccorrosive to internal parts. To combat that, you inject a small amount of oil into the combustion chamber which throughs out all the emmision controls introduced in the last 40 years.
Mr. Henderson,
This isnt related to the Volt, which I love and I think timing will be great as gas will be permanently above $4.
For the love of God, please please bring the new Opel Astra to the States. The only reason the current Astra didnt sell was because it was a Saturn. It should have been the Pontiac G3. Anyways, that Astra could be a great entry level Buick (which your dealers will be asking for now that Pontiac goes away). There is rumor Buick will also have a version of the Cruze, but I wonder if its only for China?
Please look into a feasibility study. Gas will go back up. You need to arm the US dealerships with the right cars.
Eric
Yes, the Volt’s design is soooo passe now! It is neither here nor there! At least the Prius has a sort of dorky space alien cool factor. I hope you will surprise us with a redesigned body before it is released. To me the all electric range will be negligible when running lights, radio, heater, AC. The real question is what it the gas mileage when the motor is running constantly to supply the batteries once they have been depleted. Will it then get better milage than a Prius? If not then it show that the E-Flex needs to be in a smaller lighter car with a lighter generator engine.
“We are hearing of people making onboard electrolyzers running off the alternator that convert water to hydrogen gas used to supplement internal combustion engines and some claim it boosts fuel economy as much as 20-60%…”
Edwin,
If that’s true, they have discovered a shortcut around the supposedly immutable Second Law of Thermodynamics and they should be making reservations for Stockholm next December to receive the Nobel Prize in Physics.
Nate,
H2 is as safe. H2 ICE vehicles have already been tested. Sandia national labs list “hydrogen combustion” for one of its alternative fuels.
“Hydrogen is less flammable than gasoline and natural gas due to its higher ignition temperature” Answers:
http://www.hydrogenhighway.ca.gov/facts/einsafety.pdf
Live demonstration of water power using Hydrogen on FOX News 26 video on Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3a5OHs6Yzk
HHO breakthrough reported on NBC WAVE TV video of Aquygen (TM):
http://technorati.com/videos/youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dpa1meqFFjjM
Blogs claim Chrysler, Lockeed and others are interested in Hydrogen Technology Application Inc., Aquygen (TM) gas (HHO) according to the sources :
http://hytechapps.com/
Ford Focus C-Max H2 ICE concept:
http://www.automobilemag.com/auto_shows/2005_geneva/0503_ford_focus_h2_ice/index.html
Here is a response to arm chair critics who cite the laws thermal dymanics to discount HHO boosters:
http://www.hho-generators.net/laws-thermodynamics-hhogas.htm
The author states:
Critics of HHO technology that invoke the first law of thermodynamics usually do so saying, that there is no such thing as a perpetual motion machine. What the critics fail to recognize however, is that HHO is a fuel additive, so no one is talking about a perpetual motion machine. Car owners are looking towards aftermarket HHO generators to supplement the fuel on their gasoline-powered cars (or diesel-powered).
Critics that invoke the second law of thermodynamics make the same mistake. Cars that run solely on water are a thing of science fiction. Cars that run partially on water are a thing of science fact. This might not always be the case going forward, but for now it is fact.
Thank you Edwin; you’ve made my day! It warms me to think there is another GM enthusiast (besides me) who is really into Oxyhydrogen (HHO) gas. After having studied Hydrogen Internal Combustion Engines for 3.5 years allow me to address our critics.
First, the Water Fuel Cells Edwin and I are talking about are not the same fuel cells that are in GM’s HydroGen4 (Chevy Equinox), or for that matter its predecessors. They use a Proton Exchange Membrane (PEM) fuel cell that segregate Hydrogen from Oxygen making Hydrogen unstable because it only has one valence electron and it desperately need another to stabilize. Therefore in order to properly run any car on hydrogen, the engine must have Direct Injection because any other method would result in the Hydrogen detonating in the Carburetor or intake manifold.
Secondly, while you can buy a Chevy Equinox for $25K at your local Chevy Dealer, you’ll be paying as much as 10 times as much if you seek to purchase its Hydrogen Counterpart. Primarily because the PEM cell splits Water into Hydrogen and Oxygen (or vice versa) via Platinum catalysts so to be able to produce such an Equinox would require GM to steal all the Platinum from Every GM car ever built.
Lastly to Mr. Fritz Henderson, as much as I dislike you, your ideology (that by the way is a continuation of your old boss, Rodger Smith who has done 25 years ago what you are ding to GM now that has sent GM into its bankruptcy that you seek to do only once and get out of it by July.) I am however glad that GM is willing to listen to the American people (even though you have kissed up to the government, displayed complete disregard to GM’s history declaring the good part of it dead while prolonging the last three decades that Mr. Henderson has all ready contributed 25 of those thirty years, and ripped $50,000,000,000 from the American taxpayer some 21,000+ of whom used to WORK FOR GM!!!)
I asked you Mr. Fritz, “Given that Thomas Friedman states the first country to become energy independent will become the new economic powerhouse of the world, How serious is GM in terms of renewable energy and climate change?” And you replied, “gm’s commitments to alternative propulsion, technology and alternative fuels continues strongly today to ensure we can be part of realizing this future.” Now I’ll include your extended response (above) which is much better but GET SERIOUS!!!!
People are losing you jobs, Mr. Fritz, their livelihoods, America suffers from an energy crisis 3.5decades in the making and you are still in that Renaissance center plotting the next scam; doing whatever is profitable instead of offering a diverse array of INDEGENOUSLY CONCEIVED RICH AND DISTINCTIVE SUBSTANITIVE PRODUCTS!!!!
After having studied GM for 5 years GM has always been stable with six brands. While we are shrinking, Toyota is growing having overtaken our status and plants and beaten us at our own game even making their own muscle cars (Lexus IS-F) while we axe our muscle car brand (Pontiac). Pontiac has done more for GM than any other brand in terms of innovation and creativity and is second to only Olds. It was the third best selling brand in 2008 amidst all odds. If you choose to bury Pontiac I pray that in the coming years GM will continue to embrace the innovative, creative legacy of Pontiac Olds and Saturn. All I’ll ask is please don’t let pieces of GM’s broken legacy die in vain. – Thanks.
I think that it is great that we can now use the technology that we’v been talking about for years. Hydrogen fuel is the way forward.
Edwin,
Are you a Chemical or Mechanical Engineer?
HHO (also known as H2O + Energy or Brown’s gas) is nothing more then water split into hydrogen and oxygen (which you already know).
The problem that I have is that HHO is typically (at least in aftermarket form) powered by electric and the electrolysis process.
The problems with such process from a real world (ie non perpetual motion view)perspective are:
1) The questionability of Combustion efficiency with HHO injected.
2) Generation of the gas from water and its associated losses,
3) Generation of electric to run the electrolysis process and its associated controls, generation and apparatus losses
4) The net effect on the system.
I would be less skeptical of HHO had some real hard test data to back it up. By this I mean a true test dyno setup with FULL instrumentation like Formula 1 would use.
I forsee two problems with this setup.
1) detonation/preignition at higher compression ratios.
2) The net efficiency it yields as an additive to regular gas.
There is no shortage of evidence suggesting that electrolysis is less then 100% efficient as an energy conversion means (not surprising give real world conditions). The question becomes “Can this stuff get enough extra energy via combustion efficiency improvements that it will exceed all the losses incurred to make/use it”
When I can see creditable dyno reports with BSFC, MEP, Peak Cylinder pressures, temps, etc… both with and without HHO I’ll believe it.
As of right now any reasonably good engineer would laugh and say there is clearly a loss in the system. Which is 100% true UNLESS the HHO addition performs some chemistry magic inside the combustion chamber (you know the way compression ratio does)… If for some reason data supports that HHO makes combustion more efficienct through some physical chemical mechanism then HHO is a serious option.
Until then Show us the REAL data from the real scientists… not the back yard guys you see on YouTube.
Edwin,
By the way it has nothing to do with perpetual motion. The First Law is a conservation law. Energy can neither be destroyed nor created… only changed in form.
Additionally what you have failed to mention is that to create HHO you need to make it and that takes energy. State how HHO is made and do the energy accounting to show where every Kilo Joule goes….
Da Judge,
Could you please tell us more about your 3.5 year study of Hydrogen Internal Combustion.
Last I heard BMW was having a hard time running large engines with small power outputs on hydrogen (perhaps wrong cam timings though…)
Wouldn’t the use of hydrogen make an engine extremely prone to detonation compared to other fuels? Mainly due to the ideal gas laws at work and associated temperature rises due to higher compression ratios?
HHO isn’t an end all solution… if you consider it a combustion improver then its talkworthy… but as a fuel substitute or an end all solution to the energy problem… its bull as far as I’m concerned. Again show the BSFC data.
Fritz
What about Natural Gas powered vehicles. It seems that would have been the best way to if Obama would let you.
JIm,
Natural gas powered cars and trucks makes a lot of sense. Except that the storage tanks are heavy and require high pressure to store a useable amount of fuel.
The real problem is that over the past 10 years there has been an increase in power plants that run Natural gas (it used to be very cheap). This seems foolish to me as power plants are generally easier to make clean then cars… so why not run NG in cars rather then plants. I’m sure there are reasons probably money or political.
GM does have CNG buses and other vehicles currently in use. In such cases the size of the tanks isn’t as big a deal.
People simply are not going to buy the Volt. It won’t have a 40 mile range in real life conditions, especially in the cold of winter. Most of us park in huge parking lots at work and won’t be able to plug in there, so now the round trip to and from work every day has to be less than 20 miltes to stay all electric.
Every time energy in converted there are losses. So in order to run the Volt you first have the power plant generating electricity by burning coal (or whatever). Then you charge the batteries on the car. Then when driving and the batteries get low the Volt runs a gas engine to charge the battery that runs the car. None of this is going to be particulary efficient or “green”. Electric cars just move the pollution to a different location (power plant) and make you feel like you are conserving energy because you are using less gasoline.
Has anybody figured out how much the combined cost would be for the electricity and the gas in real conditions? Or how many more power plants will need to be built if a large number of people were to buy electric cars? There are a lot of ideas that sound great but need to be thought all the way through realistically.
GM needs to sell cars the people want and will buy. The Volt is a cool idea, but it won’t save GM. The Camaro on the other hand, is selling like crazy because it is something people want and will buy. GM should give the masses car options what they want and then they will be solvent again. Yes, that includes having a Volt-type car and Camaros and Corvettes, but the big money will come from selling lots of cars that the general population wants and can afford. GM needs to be innovative in new designs and features that people people want. New styling – something that doesn’t look like everything else on the road – desired features, good mileage, good price.
Ask people what they want. Show new design proposals and get people’s reactions. Let people vote on features they want. Generate excitment by getting people involved. All this can easily be done on line and no one else is doing it yet.
I hear GM has terminated its contract with a U.S. manufacturer of poladium based catalytic converters for 2 foriegn manufacturers. The NEW GM has hurt the bondholders in the OLD GM and now has put hundreds of U.S. worker’s jobs on the line with this move. The NEW GM’s stock gives those bondholders a 10% stake in the NEW GM for a $40 billion debt, but gave the UAW a 30% stake in the NEW GM for a $20 billion debt. Seems to me like it should have been just the reverse. Let’s see $40 B = 10% vs. $20 B = 30%. I fail to understand the NEW MATH being practiced by the NEW GM and the federal government who forced this deal. Guess who gets to pay for this = the U.S. taxpayers.
As for the catalytic converter manufacturer decision, I thought the Obama administration was promoting “BUY AMERICAN” – What happened to that, huh Fritz. This particular decision needs to be reversed before about 1200 americans lose their jobs.
GM needs a big save, but I don’t think this will be the product. It seems too expensive and not efficient enough yet. I’ve found all the comments really interesting. Thanks.
Fritz:
I feel that my $ used as a taxpayer bailout represent the very dollars I needed to replace an aging Cutlass. Trouble is, I didn’t get the new car in return for that money and feel slighted. So I bought a new Civic (my first) in April. Bottom Line: I paid for 2 cars but only got 1 car with the first car payments I’ve had to make since 1998.
Now I’m starting to consider the replacement for a beloved LeSabre and I need you to devise a way to return MY money as part of any deal I make for a new GM vehicle. I know the bright lights in Washington think they doled out impersonal tax revenue, but I take every dollar personally. Your debt to me, my children and my grandchildren is one that was not swept away in a bankruptcy discharge. This continuing liability remains on my books and needs to be addressed before I can return to a GM showroom .. after which I, once again, become an easy sale.
VT
I am an avid GM enthusiast. I am considering the purchase of a new Cadillac CTS. I entered the required information to receive authorization codes for GM College grad discounts and credit union member discounts. The dealer now tells me those don’t really matter as everyone is all ready receiving supplier pricing. Why have these programs in place if the price they have listed is what you will pay anyhow?
Thanks!
Chris
what’s the fuel tank size for Volt?