What Quality Gap?
By Rick Spina
North American Vice President, Quality
Today’s quality announcement by J.D. Power and Associates suggest it’s time for perception to sling-shot its way into reality when people think about General Motors — especially when it comes to quality. When I hear or read disparaging remarks about GM vehicle quality, I get rattled because more often than not, the comments are not true.
For all the naysayers out there … get this … in the J.D. Power & Associates 2009 Initial Quality Study, Cadillac, our flagship brand, improved by 19 percent since last year’s study and comes in third, just behind Lexus and Porsche. That’s pretty darn good considering brands typically improve around 5 percent a year. And Chevy, our volume leader, eliminates the quality gap to join company with very competitive import brands like Honda and Toyota. Simply put, the quality gap is history.
Thirteen GM models placed in the top three of their segments, one less than Toyota. Two of our plants earned the Silver (Oshawa Car) and Bronze (Bowling Green, KY) quality awards. In fact, seven of the top ten plants in North America are GM plants, which is a true testament of our manufacturing capability.
There are many third-party studies that report on vehicle quality and they all use various methodologies to gather data. We pay close attention to this particular study because it represents the voice of our customers. We listen carefully to what they say about their vehicle ownership experience. Their input is translated into engineering requirements, or specifications if you will, and incorporated into our continuous improvement initiatives.
We’ve been working on improvements for a long time, we’re getting good results in many areas and admittedly we have work to do in others. I can assure you, though, quality is integral to everything we do. Quality doesn’t just happen, it is deliberately planned early in the design phase of vehicle development where aggressive targets are set for every phase of development, including vehicle assembly in our plants. Numerous quality check points, or ‘valves’ as we call them, allow for thorough reviews to make sure customer needs and expectations will be met. Of course, there are hundreds of validation tests of parts and components along the way to make sure that, when all the parts come together on the assembly line, our vehicles will not only look appealing but will last over the long haul.
Getting it right by our customers’ standards drives the entire development process. By all of our internal measures, we’re getting the job done. And, our customers confirm that in the Initial Quality Study. But don’t take my word for it, check out J.D. Power’s news release and see for yourself. And if you don’t believe our customers, go to a dealership and try out our cars and trucks … then let me know what you think.
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Good to hear GM initial quality has improved dramatically.
I sincerely hope we will also see further improvements of long-term quality across the GM line. Some vehicles have improved, which is good to see.
Unfortunately, most of the GM vehicles I’ve owned, while decent initially, developed many more problems over times than the equivalent Overseas vehicles.
Also, as GM reduces its dealer network, hopefully customer satisfaction and service quality will be major factors in determining which dealers remain open.
I have a 2001 Silverado ext cab. that I love but now with 127k I have had to replace both window regulator and the fuel gauge need replaced. I have a 2000 626 with 130k and the electronics are fine. GM really need to work on this the chevy cost a good 10k more and you would think that would give better quality. also the small diesel sounds like it’s time has come, if they can fit one in a VW why not ?
No Toyota or Honda owner is going to care about IQS. They are going to be watching CR and their neighbors that own GM cars and when decade old GM cars are getting rankings on par with Toyota and Honda in CR and still pleasing their neighbors, then Toyota and Honda owners are going to develop some interest in GM.
“Numerous quality check points, or ‘valves’ as we call them, allow for thorough reviews to make sure customer needs and expectations will be met.”
Not long ago I rented a virtually brand new Impala. (Only 800 miles on the odometer when I checked it out.) It seems that car should have been about as close to factory specs as a car could be. Yet the automatic transmission in that car performed horribly. Starting from a stop it wouldn’t move until 2300 rpm, and then would suddenly lurch forward. (A Navy carrier pilot would have felt right at home.)
How did that one slip through your ‘valves?’
>> …when decade old GM cars are getting rankings on par with Toyota and Honda in CR and still pleasing their neighbors, then Toyota and Honda owners are going to develop some interest in GM. <<
Charlie H.
It also doesn’t help when they see a 12-year old Oldsmobile, Buick, or Caddy rust bucket wallowing down the street on worn out shocks. (I’m sure you’ve all seen them. Actually, one usually first hears them coming because of the noise from the exhaust and the click-clack of the lifters.)
It would pay GM to hire teams of college student each summer and send them into big cities to cut the GM badges and logos off those old rusty barges roaming the streets.
Quality is probably more about expectation and preception than problems per vehical in the first year or whatever.
Ive allways loved GM vehicals because they are rediculusly cheep to maintain. Most of my blue collar colleges drive GM’s because they can afford to keep them, many would jump ship to Toyota if they could get a late model with Delphi electrical components, the old Denso stuff costs a mint, and on a working class budget you’d have to go witthout tail lights for want of a $300 relay. Some of the young guys like Hondas but once somthing mechanical goes they have to scrap them, Rebuilt engines and Transmisions are 3 times or more what GM’s go for, plus you can allways find a good low mile ECCOTEC in the recycling yard, Honda motors tend to be beaten to death when you find them in the yard.
When I bought my 07 Canyon I was dissapointed that it was biger, slower and less efficient, than the old Sonoma’s out there, But it’s a rugged truck that takes plenty of abuse and is cheep to maintain .
My other car is an 05 CTS, it was a rental car and it has 65,000 mi on it , it looks hammered, cigarette burned seats, dents, scratches; BUT I absolutely love this car, it’s as reliable as a quartz watch, the maintinance is as cheep as a Chevy, it handles like a BMW and rides like a LINCON, and it’s 22mpg average is not that off from boring old front drive cars. Say what you will but you can’t drift an Accord, without stretching the E-Brake cable, and heaven knows what they run. Annyway the only two things I do’nt like about the Cadillac are that its a Cadillac and people think I’m putin on airs, and that the 2nd gereration is so much cooler looking.
I think the hippies were right Americans are too materialistic, and the Squares were right too, Americans are’nt patriotic enough.
Jason Zebersky
Buck Slocombe,
Sounds like either one slipped through or a car renter abused the heck out of a brand new car… perhaps they were trying to burn the tires off or something….
Rich Spina,
Thats great to hear.
I just checked out the new Buick LaCrosse page and am very impressed. My only question is when there will be a diesel option or a hybrid?
additionally will there be a junior Buick Lacrosse (again G6 sized)?
Also can you post some information about the AWD system. My understanding is that it is based on the Saab system and is derived from a FWD power train. What power bias does it have and how well does it handle sporty driving?
Keep up the great work!!! I’m waiting to see the next wave of GM cars and hoping one strikes my interest a bit more precisely. Maybe an AWD Diesel LaCrosse or a small turbo Buick V6 with AWD?
Gm may be doing better in JD power problems per vehicle, but overall longterm reliability is not on par with Toyota and others… I will never buy GM again, especially after they dumped Pontiac and kept Buick. GM and Ford are not fooling anyone with their commercials touting quality on par with Honda and Toyota, it’s simply not true.
It’s long term quality that counts. My Cobalt has needed 2 steering columns and an intermediate shaft with less than 40,000 miles on it. My mother’s Impala, with less than 10,000 miles needed a new steering column. These are known issues to GM but faulty parts are still being used. Inexcusable.
As for build quality I want one of you guys to go to a couple of Chevy dealers and take a look at the carpeting on the floor. Every single ‘09 Cobalt I saw had carpeting that didn’t go all the way to the seats and I could actually see the metal floor! Go ahead-check it out and let us know that you find that acceptable. I know you won’t check it out because you have no quality control on your small cars. None. I would have purchased a new Cobalt if the quality was at least as good as my ‘06. It was worse, far worse.
I am not impressed.
I have noticed a bit of inconsistency in quality still remains. My own personal car is a 2006 Chevy HHR LT2. I love the car, and have only had a couple of nuisance issues with it that were fixed before the warranty ran out. Oddly though the 2007 Silverado I use at work is plagues with issues. Some seem to have been fixed for now (tire pressure sensors triggering warnings for no reason) but that truck has a persistent short in the wiring for the headlights. So one or the other is out. If I reach under the hood and jiggle the wires to the lights, they come on. My company has brought this truck in to get this fixed but the dealer can’t seem to find the problem and hasn’t fixed it. This sort of thing really shouldn’t happen in a truck that’s only two years old. The dealer not fixing it is just insult to injury.
So, ask yourself this: How can Chevy get things so right on one vehicle, but get things so wrong on another? Once you have the answer, you’ll be able to beat Toyota in every third party quality rating that there is.
As a former GM employee, I understand where you are coming from when you talk about the lack of a “Quality Gap”…however, as much as I’d love to tell you that saying that in your blog and trying to tell people that “we’re not really behind” should work, it doesn’t. Race car drivers can’t say “0.01s is not statistically significant”…especially since year after year, it’s 0.01s to the media and to customers–GM has not come out ahead yet. My belief is that your comments are perceived as “sore loser” and, as I mention above, “we’re not really behind.” Especially to those most coveted of GM potential customers–import buyers.
Since leaving GM, where I enjoyed helping create the SSR, the Lambda’s, and the Global Gamma, I’ve gone on to work for a medical device company out here in CA (they gave me an offer I couldn’t refuse over a year ago!), and I can’t tell you how many times I have heard, “I used to buy GM, but after one/two awful cars, I won’t go back to them.”
The key issue here is only partially quality. The question I now believe GM has to ask itself on every vehicle program is: “Does this vehicle give a compelling enough reason for a happy owner to risk giving up that happiness to try GM (again)?” Not just competitive, not just best-in-class, but truly compelling. The Ford Fusion Hybrid is one such compelling car–41mpg, the best by far in its class. The interior and drive do not disappoint. Psychologically, 40-something mpg is a world apart from 30something, and that’s what people remember… So I’m starting to hear about people considering it, even hard-core import buyers.
I’m not trying to be down on GM–I wish GM the best, and I have tried to be a good ambassador for the company (influenced the sale of 3 vehicles–all Lambdas), but since moving out here, I’ve gotten a new insight into why so many people refuse to consider GM despite its improving products.
Oh–and on why door sounds matter: it’s not the door sound itself, but the sum of all those little things _like_ door sound that give the impression of solidity and quality. Mercedes got its reputation by _seeming_ like their cars were built like bank vaults–how much do you want to bet that door sounds helped cement that reputation over decades? I would implore you to consider every customer interface when considering quality of GM vehicles and how they are perceived. I lost two Lambda sales because of these perceptual quality issues, both to non-car folks who “shouldn’t” notice these “little” things. They bought Acuras.
Finally–best wishes. There’s a little guy out here cheering for you. (no need to post this entry publicly…)
Well I think its great that GM is making better cars initially. I believe they still have a LONG way to go. While Im in the mind set any new car should have no problems its when you hit 7-10 years old, hows the quality now? Not so good and it hurts to say that. My Acadia has been to the shop twice, the powersterring pump bad, wipers bad, brakes calipers froze up…. come on GM get it together these are fail safe things were talking about. I know nothing perfect but little things add up rea quick when your left without transportation because its raining out and your wipers decide to quit functioning.
Charlie:
CR’s methodology is garbage and yet people like you who swear by import quality refuse to acknowledge this because you like what CR presents. Most people get rid of a car before ten years so you aren’t going to find much good reliability data for ten year old cars. Its great that some die hard Honda fans can vouch for their vehicles with 175k miles but he reality is 99% of owners do not keep their cars that long. Most people trade in their car because they want a new one, not because of mechanical failure. Why are there so many late model imports on used car lots if imports last 10-20 years without any problems? Friends of mine bought a used Maxima and after a year the problems started piling up and they just got rid of it two weeks ago. They spent nearly $3k in repairs on a car with less than 100k miles in a 2 month period.
BTW, Lexus has been known to tout JD Power results in its advertising since the brand debuted 20 years ago so don’ t sit here and tell us Japanese brands don’t care about these studies. Lexus is probably the brand that made “JD Power” a household name since they spent so much money advertising their performance in the company’s surveys.
Buck:
Every GM product with a 4 speed automatic I’ve ever drive is silky smooth. My parents have an Impala and the transmission is smoother than the 6 speed in my car. Amazing how those with the anti GM vendettas always happen to have first hand experiences with crappy GM rentals. I rented a Lacrosse back in 2006 and the car performed flawlessly.
“Buck Slocombe, Sounds like either one slipped through or a car renter abused the heck out of a brand new car… perhaps they were trying to burn the tires off or something….”
Nate,
True, it could have been either. But still, a car with only 800 miles on it and with a transmission that bad leaves a terrible impression of GM quality.
Whether to put cars in rental fleets must be quite a dilemma for car makers. On one hand, it is a great opportunity to show people the best you can build. On the other hand, once a car is in the rental fleet, the car maker looses control of the quality.
All I can say is that after my experience renting that Impala, I would never buy one.
Mr. Spina,
The presentation you had om Socrates is very inspiring, especially the last few minutes when you talked about “We” and “They”. However, you did not address the most important issue: “What are the areas where we should focus our attention?”. It is clear that we are trailing in SUBCOMPACT, COMPACT and COMPACT-MAV segments. Please do sweep these under the rug but let us be humble to accept that we don’t know how to make good small cars but we will learn to make to the best ones soon.
========== EOM ===========
Nate:
How many times are you going to ask the same question regarding diesels? They are not going to be a major factor in the US market. Its not GM’s fault and yet you keep asking about diesels for EVERY GM product. GM sells diesels in Europe where they are popular. They are not popular here for MANY reasons. Why not move on to something else? You can ask about diesles 500 times but until the taxes and emissions rules change GM wont be spending money developing them for the US market. Its time to get over it.
Jordan:
You cannot quantify your statement about Toyota “dominating” those segments because JDP does not give the PPV for each car in each class. For all you know the car that got first place had one PPV less than the car in second place. Stop making unproven claims as if they are fact. Toyota as a brand finished slightly ahead of Chevy and the two brands are essentially TIED. Just get over it and stop making up excuses.
Steve:
When you say your car needed two new steering columns what are referring to exactly? I had a minor issue with a half shaft and it was replaced and the problem has not resurfaced. What was your issue?
“Amazing how those with the anti GM vendettas always happen to have first hand experiences with crappy GM rentals.”
Cause and effect Sheth. Experience shapes opinions. Which do you think came first? An anti-Gm vendetta (as you put it), or an experience that shaped my opinion?
“Every GM product with a 4 speed automatic I’ve ever drive (sic) is silky smooth. My parents have an Impala and the transmission is smoother than the 6 speed in my car.”
Sounds as though you and your parents have been fortunate in your experience with GM products. But perhaps if you had driven the Impala I got from that rental fleet, you’d sing a different tune.
ET:
Sadly I don’t think there is much GM (or anyone) can do to convert someone who will not actually test drive their products and consider all the objective information out there regarding quality and performance. Based on my encounters with people from California in online forums they are extremely biased and unwilling to consider objective analysis of American cars. It’s really a shame, but many of them seem to pride themselves on being fiercely loyal to foreign brands. They almost seem to enjoy knowing that American automakers are suffering and that their selection of vehicles plays a part in that. I don’t think any amount of advertising or media admiration will convince certain people to check out a GM product. What it will take is for a few brave souls to be pioneers and take a chance by being different and buying American. The ONLY thing die hard import fans will respect is the opinion of someone in their circle who vouches for a domestic product.
To be perfectly honest, I find that the legend of “trouble free” imports is vastly exaggerated. Even if we were to believe the mythology it seems to be primarily focused on Toyota and Honda ONLY. I suspect that people who are loyal to a brand have the tendency to be extra forgiving of faults- I have some in my family that swear by Toyotas and dismiss any issues they’ve had. All cars need expensive maintenance if you keep them long enough so after 7-8 years reliability isn’t really the issue anymore. At that point the costs come from replacement of wear and tear items. Imports need new tires, timing belts, altenators, AC compressors, brakes, clutches (on manuals), etc. just like all cars do if you keep them long enough. My experience has been that import owners don’t count any problems that aren’t related to the engine or transmission.
Sheth jones writes, “CR’s methodology is garbage and yet people like you who swear by import quality refuse to acknowledge this because you like what CR presents.”
CR likes their methodology. I have more money in my pocket since I began taking their advice. Why wouldn’t I trust their advice? I also consult CR before buying appliances. That works out very well, too.
As it happens, I don’t like what CR presents. I like a certain European car brand. We drove one for 18 years and loved it every step of the way. We’ve also owned two more. However, on the latter two, reliability wasn’t what I had expected. Before buying another car, I consulted CR. My experience was not a fluke. CR says that European car brand doesn’t hold up as well as you might think. No more of those for me and I’m rather bummed about it. And, having switched to a certain Asian brand, I have to admit that our original European car wasn’t all that reliable, either.
Besides my personal bank account, reality looks to be well aligned with what CR reports. My friends with certain import brands all express nothing but satisfaction. My friends with GM cars… it’s hit or miss at best. The last time I saw warranty cost figures was some years ago but GM’s expenses were twice certain other brands. I have no particular reason to think that’s changed (feel free to send us to an authoritative site that shows the gap is closed). I subscribe to an indepenent site that’s attempting to track reliability metrics and they agree, certain Asian brands are well in the lead.
Of course, even if warranty costs were the same, look at the anectdote above… Short in headlights => can’t find problem. If GM managed to match on warranty cost, who’s to say they’d do it by providing the same level of service. Toyota just bought people out of trucks that prematurely rusted with decently generous cash settlements. GM just recently settled up for DexCool. Can you describe it as “decently generous?”
Sheth jones also writes, “Its great that some die hard Honda fans can vouch for their vehicles with 175k miles but he reality is 99% of owners do not keep their cars that long.”
A car with a reputation for reliability will sell more quickly and at a higher price than a similar car that lacks this reputation. It’s in the new car buyer’s best financial interest to buy cars that deliver lasting value, whether they intend to keep the car for one year or twenty.
Sheth jones also writes, “Buck, Every GM product with a 4 speed automatic I’ve ever drive is silky smooth…”
Buck,
Sheth is warning you that, if you recall an experience with a GM transmission that was not silky smooth, you have a memory corruption error. Please reboot your brain. If the problem doesn’t go away and you still have this false memory after the reboot, please log a service call.
Karl Bogardus,
I see, disproportionately, GM (and Chrysler) cars on the road with peeling paint. These things are rolling advertisements for another brand -any other brand! I don’t know why GM doesn’t give out coupons for a free paint job and mitigate the impact of these eyesores.
I don’t know if your plan would have much impact. Remove the badges from, say, an Aztek and it’s still, most obviously, an Aztek. However, remove the badges and you can’t tell a 2000 Cutlass from a 2000 Malibu. I’m not sure that would help the cause, though.
Buck:
Actually I wouldn’t sing a different tune. Trying to assess quality in a beat up rental car is questionable. Give your experiences in normal cars driven by people who have a vested interest in the durability of the vehicle. YOu have no idea how that rental car had been driven or maintained before you drove it and thus you cannot make any accurate assessment of GM’s quality control based on that car. For the record, I’ve never noted any abnormal functionality in any rental vehicle I’ve ever had. I’ve had a rental Lacrosse, Century, Impala, Charger and L200 in the past which no such issues. I have noticed damaged and heavily soiled interiors on rentals but I don’t blame that on the manufacturer.
Using abused rentals or poorly maintained used cars to evaluate the new car quality of any manufacturer is silly.
Sheth Jones,
Amen to your previous comment. I have seen imports with sometimes severe problems. Case in point, my boss has a 2006 Honda Pilot with 115000 miles on it. The transmission is slipping horribly on this vehicle, and of course is out of warranty. It will cost at least $3000 to repair or $5000 to replace. Also, some of the problems people with domestic cars have is really a matter of normal maintenence. In my case, I have a 2002 Chevy Cavalier. It has just turned 200000 miles on it. To date I have replaced the water pump at 120000 miles, the struts at 160000 miles, the alternator at 180000 miles, and last week the fuel pump just short of 200000. All of these things were not defects or flaws, just normal parts wear due to mileage and age. These parts were also very inexpensive to replace ( I did it all myself) when compared to their import counterparts.
That’s funny! I have a 97 Acura Cl and you know I haven’t had to replace any of those things yet! It is now at 210,000 miles and still shifts smooth! I bought the car with 152,000 miles on it and have since then used it for more than 50,000 miles of brutal pizza delivery miliage! it has made me extremlely happy! funny thing too is it is a little 3.0 liter engine that can creep ahead of a 3.8 liter supercharged pontiac GTP which is suppose to have 60 more hp than mine too. American cars are pathetic!!!
Tiger Woods should have had your car instead of his GM-provided Escalade.
SIMPLY PUT THE QUALITY GAP IS HISTORY.
Statements like that make me still have doubts about you GM. Almost as good is not good enough anymore.
That sounds exactly like the old GM. Granted you have made improvements but
you are still not on top. The quality gap will not be history until every vehicle you
make is ahead of every other vehicle on the market. Your reputation is in the toilet
and you you in a fight for your life. You can ill afford to settle fo almost as good as the
compertition anymore. You have got to become a leader again,not just in quality but
in all aspect of the automotive industry. You need to be the best built,best backed
,best performing, best looking,best everything. I know that is asking a lot but the
automotive busness is like a war now. In order to survive it you have bring your best game.
Is this a perception issue? Is this a Quality issue ?
In any case GM needs to do better.
GM has been talking the talk for years as market share declined.
Now is the time to walk the walk.
Build the best, make no excuses, fix the problems, respect your customers.
“Nate: How many times are you going to ask the same question regarding diesels? They are not going to be a major factor in the US market. Its not GM’s fault and yet you keep asking about diesels for EVERY GM product.”
Nate,
Sheth is correct. You are beating a dead horse. When it comes to diesels, we are all at the mercy of the bureaucrats in the EPA. They see the car industry as something to regulate and control so they can build their Federal careers, and they are determined to make it as difficult as possible for diesel-powered cars. Bureaucratic agencies such as the EPA are stealing our future bit by bit.
At one time this was a great nation where pioneers would endure months of hardship on the Oregon Trail to build new lives; or where a pair of bicycle mechanics in Dayton, OH could invent the airplane. But those days are gone. Now we are all under the thumb of the bureaucrats.
I do not care about initial quality, or even quality in the first 3 or 4 years of ownership…… with today’s technologies, knowledge, and design, this shouldn’t even be a question that every manufacturer can do.
What I care about is how the car will hold up to 150,000 miles and up – I buy a car brand new and drive it for 7+ years. Which is why my last two cars have been Hondas, and will continue to be untill GM PROVES, through real life, that their cars last without stupid stuff like window motors and accessory motors breaking, engines leaking or running rough, and shakes and rattles in the interior.
I have an expectation that 200,000 miles, when taken care of properly, is not unreasonable. I have NEVER seen or owned or driven a GM car with anywhere near that mileage – they tend to be ready for the junk yard long before that mileage marker.
Charlie H:
(It also doesn’t help when they see a 12-year old Oldsmobile, Buick, or Caddy rust bucket wallowing down the street on worn out shocks. (I’m sure you’ve all seen them. Actually, one usually first hears them coming because of the noise from the exhaust and the click-clack of the lifters.))
I have a 1997 Olds Aurora, body rust free, runs excellent, shacks are great, the exhaust is stainless steel and doesn’t even have surface rust after 12 years Don’t know what cars your talking about.
Do you by any chance live near salt marsh ?
“Based on my encounters with people from California in online forums they are extremely biased and unwilling to consider objective analysis of American cars. It’s really a shame, but many of them seem to pride themselves on being fiercely loyal to foreign brands.”
Statements like that will never convince anyone who currently owns a Toyota to buy a GM or Ford product. I too am one of those supposedly “biased” Californians, but I’m originally from Tennessee. When I grew up we had several GM products: A beautiful 1984 Buick Riviera. The thing was junk. We also had a 1995 Ford F-150 ( Dad decided to give a US automaker another try) it made it to about 75,000 miles then blew the head gasket. Again-junk. But on the other hand, every single one of the Toyotas we have owned, which has included 2 Camrys, an Avalon which my brother still drives with over 260,000 miles on the clock, my Tacoma that I still drive with now almost 230,000 miles, and my Dad’s Tundra which now has almost 225,000 miles. NONE and I mean none of these have had anything other than extremely minor issues. As in I had to replace the original starter in mine last year and that my Brother’s Avalon had to have a new EGR valve just a few weeks ago.
So the problem with your argument that Californians, and I suppose “liberals” are all mean-spirited, anti-American, job-killing domestic automaker haters is that more often then not, their reasons for staying with Honda or Toyota is that they have had fantastic luck with their cars and trucks. The reason is quality and quality alone. GM clearly gets this and is making strides to improvement.
But I also agree with a few others here that Long-Term quality is more important than initial quality. Once Americans become convinced that a Chevy will go 200,000 miles without a hickup, then you’ll have sales.
Sheth,
As for my anti-GM vendetta, the last rental car I had was a 2009 Vibe. I liked it very much, and had no problems of any kind. I even got 39+ mpg on a 400 mile trip. I would be happy to recommend the Vibe ~ it’s compact, but still roomy and useful inside. It would be a great car for a young family.
Just heard earlier today that GM was stopping production of the Vibe. That’s too bad. I consider the Vibe one of the better cars GM builds, and I thought for sure they would move it to Chevrolet.
Based on my rental experience I could not recommend Impala, but would gladly recommend Vibe.
Buck:
Again, rentals are good for getting some driving experience in certain models but they are not a great way to make a determination of quality due to the way they are treated. Thats just a simple fact. The Vibe is a thoroughly mediocre car just like the Corola its based on.
CharlieH:
1. If you have such disdain and lack of faith in GM products you should continue to drive your chosen import and give the GM lectures a rest. Trust me, you aren’t saying anything new or enlightening.
2. European cars were never known for reliability so the fact that CR supports that notion really doesn’t mean much
3. CR surveys the same people every year which leads to slanted data. This is why polls are always random to get accurate samples.
4. CR doesn’t rate reliability on an absolute scale so we can see how many problems exist per vehicle or what % of vehicles experience a particular failure. Their convolted system tells you NOTHING about the absolute reliability of any model they rate. Everything is rated relative to the average.
5. Famous import problems (Toyota sludge, Toyota transmissions issues, Honda transmission issues) never seem to be reflected in their data. I’ve never gotten a real explanation for that.
6. Models that are built in the same factories get different ratings at times. In addition, they give wildly different ratings to different trim lines of the same model even though in most cases the engine is the only difference.
7. CR is the only publication I know of that rates cars without regards to pricing or rebates. One reason domestics generally do poorly in CR is because price is never a factor in their rankings. Please explain how a consumer magazine rates cars without mentioning price.
8. CR doesn’t even explain its final road test scores but imports almost always come out on top. Similarly performing cars end up with very different test scors and no explanation is provided.
9. If you are on a blog about GM vehicles you are likely to read about quality problems with GM vehicles. Since we aren’t discussing Toyotas or Hondas you aren’t going to find people venting about problems they’ve had with those cars. Trust me, those cars have issues too. I get my information from import owners that generally don’t consider domestics including my friends who just dumped their Maxima and yet wont buy American.
10. The GM settlement with dexcool goes back years and the period for reimbursement has already passed. This settlement is hardly a recent development. Toyota likely acted before it ended up in litigation because they wanted to save money. To my knowledge Toyota has never acknowledged the sludge problem with their engines and generally has blamed any such issues on the owners.
JoeD:
Your generalizations and anecdotal experiences really don’t mean much- especially if you are biased. Any car can last 150k miles if you are willing to spend the money on maintenance. ALL cars need costly maintenance if you keep them for well over 100k miles. This notion that imports run like Swiss watches at minimal expense for 200k miles is nonsense. I know of an Olds Delta 88 that lasted until at least 170k-180k miles until the owner gave up and figured it wasn’t worth continued investment. Few people keep their cars for 150k miles these days and there is no reliable data out there rating 10 year old cars so I’m not sure how anyone can “prove” to you that GM vehicles will last 150k miles. I really question your assertion that lasting 200k miles is a critical issue when most people dump their cars after 6-7 years.
Buck, the Vibe is not the car to use to prove that you like some GM vehicles. It isn’t technically a GM product as it’s essentially the same as the Toyota Corolla and Matrix which are built in the same plant as the Vibe. Had you tried a new Malibu, which is an outstanding car from most accounts, you would have had a better arguement.
Apart from talks, lets put things in real :
1) Do you pay me back my opportunity cost for every dealer travel and inconvenience caused by a part break down of you car,
2) Do you pay me back if your car is not up to my expectation ( same line you ask – give us a chance on small car with a product you plan to release next year – cruze ) because i risk MY money on somebodys words ( it’s my hard earned money )
By quality in work/products makes quality , it does not come by just preaching to people. Still are you in the game to put things real ?
I hear a lot talks, lets do it practical and then let the products talk and you guys work to make the products talk. Let them talk through CR , customers words, reviews etc ( to be true one of my friends brought a 2009 uplander (in canada ) and with in 2 weeks he has to travel back to dealer for check engine light on and they replaced some valve ).
“The Vibe is a thoroughly mediocre car just like the Corolla its based on.”
Whoa there partner! What do you even know about the Vibe?
Did you know the Vibe is recommended as a “great value”…a Matrix for less money. Many repair shops say it has the relative reliability of a Toyota and they don’t see them in for work often. Repair shops even like to buy used Vibes with high mileage to offer as free “loaner cars” when customers drop off cars. Used Vibes are available for a reasonable price and they are reliable with a low level of unscheduled maintenance.
Rick,
I reviewed the chart titled 2009 Nameplate IQS Ranking, Problems per 100 Vehicles. It is great news that Cadillac ranked #3 in the Luxury brands. Although Chevrolet IQS is competitive with Toyota, Hyundai and Honda are really in the leadership position among the mass-market brands. I am worried that we are celebrating the beating of an old enemy, while overlooking the emergence of new competitors. We have to continue to be vigilant!
Sheth,
First of all I think you’re making just a many vague statements as the people you claim “Bash GM”. For starters, you have to be specific about what kinds of brands we’re talking about when comparing to GM. To me, its less about whether the car is imported or American built. Besides- Pretty much every single foreign automaker has plants in the US at this point- even Hyundai. An “Import” could be anything from a Yugo to a Mercedes. If you were to say that GM’s quality is better than Mitsubishi, I’d agree. Better than Nissan? Maybe. Toyota? No way.
The other problem with your argument is that you’re basically dissing people you claim are anti-American when the real reason is that they- like myself- like to save money. I have a long commute. I have very little time to work on my vehicles or have them repaired. Thus its imperative that my vehicle function for long periods of time reliably. So far I have owned only two vehicles: A Toyota Celica and a Tacoma. Both lasted well past 200,000 miles without a problem. I still own the Tacoma. Additionally my Brothers beat-up 98 Avalon still runs great at 260,000 miles. So too does my Dad’s 2002 Tundra at 220,000 miles and my Mother’s Honda CR-v( latest edition) at 70,000 miles.
So you see, in our family we have had a nearly flawless ownership experience with our Toyotas. Its a brand and a brand that is a good quality. Its not just that we are import-loving domestic haters. Its the quality. That’s what GM has to do. They must build cars and trucks that reliably and regularly go 200,000 miles or more and do so with enough regularity that people can trust their quality without thinking about it.
That’s just the thing that people like yourself do not get. When I walk into a Toyota dealership, I know full well that whatever I get there will last me for long periods of time with no issues. I don’t even think twice about it. On the other hand, even though I am actually quiet a fan of GM and their latest products, I’d really have a hard time feeling comfortable with that decision because the plain and simple truth is that the level of quality they claim is not warranted yet due to not having had these supposedly improved vehicles on the road long enough to prove the statement. It takes time and persistence, one that I hope they achieve.
But when you see people who drive Toyotas and Hondas, there is a reason for that. Quality.
I don’t trust GM statements regarding quality. My 2003 SAAB 9-3 was a nightmare – same platform as the G6 and Aura I believe. I replaced it with a 2006, which has been better, but still had issues.
Even IF GM short and long-term quality matched the imports, I would not now consider one because thanks to Obama I’m involuntarily contributing to the UAW every week via the taxes forcibly taken from my paycheck.
So the last thing I’ll do is voluntarily support the UAW by supporting Government Motors (or Chrysler or Ford, for the same reasons).
I have been trading in cars every 9 months or so – two at a time. I have a long commute and trade-in around 9-15,000 miles. I have purchased only small cars, mostly stick shifts, both foreign and domestic. I have noted no significant initial quality differences; I had a Honda Fit with a couple more minor glitches than my Chev Cobalt. BUT dealership service on warranty varies a great deal. I have had VERY disappointing warranty service on both Dodge and Chevy vehicles. Rattles that get ignored; defective door latches (on the Caliber) for which parts never come in. Am I too fussy? I don’t think so. When I take similar complaints to Honda and Toyota, they always find the problem and fix it. Right away. No excuses or delays or parts that never seem to show up. One visit. Not two or three or having to try another dealer.
So for me the real issue isn’t initial quality. It’s comparable. And the real issue isn’t USUALLY trade-in – because I get better deals on domestics, which makes up for lower resale. The real problem is inattentive warranty work.
BTW Ford hasn’t had this problem. I bought more than a few Focii and whenever there was an issue, it was promptly attended to. The bad warranty service seems to be a Dodge/Chrysler and Chevy issue.
On the other hand, the 2.2 Ecotec in the Cobalt rocks, nothing like it in the imports…
Rick,
Initial Quality is just an indicator. It is not always a very good indicator either.
If GM’s long term quality is good – then they will automatically show up in Initial Quality as well. However, the reverse is not always true (Good IQS is not necessarily an indicator of good long term quality).
I am glad to see GM do so well in JD Power’s IQS results – but the focus for GM should always be on long term quality and C.R. Recommended Buy. These are what influences purchases (irrespective of whether people agree with it or not) and that is what GM’s focus should be on.
Initial quality means little. If a company can’t push a car off an assembly line with all the parts and pieces in the right place and with no rattles, they shouldn’t even be in business. If a car can’t pass its quality assurance inspection off the assembly line, you shouldn’t even bother sending it to a dealer.
What really counts is long-term quality, durability, reliability, and cost of operation. How long do all those parts and pieces stay together and work as they are supposed to? How often does a consumer need to take the car in for unscheduled maintenance because the parts and pieces don’t work as they should?
Those are engineering issues, not something to be solved by a one-time quality assurance inspection as a car rolls off the assembly line.
If GM is really confident and proud of the quality of their work, whey don’t they publish the mean time between failure (MTBF) numbers for their cars? High MTBF numbers would be a real indicator of quality.
Wow seems the feedback is speaking for itself… sounds like a 50/50 good vs bad experience.
ET,
Interesting you say that… it IS the truth. GM still comes off with a whiny tone that their cars are good etc.. They are getting much better but still not there. The remarks I’ve read (and now my recent experience driving a lowly Toyota Camry rental back it up).
“The key issue here is only partially quality. The question I now believe GM has to ask itself on every vehicle program is: “Does this vehicle give a compelling enough reason for a happy owner to risk giving up that happiness to try GM (again)?” Not just competitive, not just best-in-class, but truly compelling.”
You are spot on with that. My experience driving GM’s competition confirms that. Until recently I thought “I don’t know about Toyotas etc…” But after driving one and seeing the neat little features and styling that make it more appealing and fun to drive then GM it would be hard for me to go back to a G6 or Malibu… the Camry is simply more user friendly, more fun to drive (not necessarily faster but a blast to drive) and has the room and features I want/need in a car. I have a few more rentals coming up this summer so next on my list is a CTS and a few Nissans.
Sheth jones,
With respect to CR and people keeping a car more then 10 years. You are CLEARLY missing the point. Even if I own a car for 3, 4 5 or 8 years most likely someone else buys that car. And this is what people are concerned about. For example I myself prefer buying used cars because I have no need to spend 2 to 5K more for a zero mile car. GM cars typically have poor resale value (but why?). Car buyers do care about how long a car lasts. My current 1990 car is rolling on 130K and has some issues but I will keep driving it for at least another 15 to 30K miles before I consider totally scrapping it.
Just because the buyer of a NEW car only has it a few years doesn’t mean thats its life time.
I’m not sure if you’ve driven non GM cars but every GM 4 speed my family has owned has needed a rebuild after 80 to 130K miles. And at that the from 70K on the shifts aren’t that smooth.
Have you ever had a single bad experience with GM? If not your experiences seem out of touch with the reality the rest of us know.
Buck,
Putting cars in rental fleets is a great idea it is a shame that the bottom of the line are usually what end up there. It would be nice to rent a mid or top of the line car for once….
Sheth,
My question regarding diesels is 100% valid. If GM wants me to buy a car from them… especially a new one I expect them to have an offering that is suitable to my needs and wants. If that isn’t the case GM loses me as a customer. The reality is that GM CAN make Diesels even if in small quantities. The FACT is they have not tried to put a diesel in a Cobalt or Malibu sized car in the US market EVER. How could they possibly know how it would do. VW doesn’t seem to have a problem selling its cars in the US with small 100 to 140 HP diesels in them. In fact the resale value on VW Diesels from 2007 to 2008 (when VW didn’t have a Diesel entry due to new emissions regs) was off the chart. Extremely high mileage (90K plus) VW Diesels were going in excess of 6K to 14K. A comparable car from GM was between 3K and 5K if even that.
There IS a demand for Diesels in the US market. GM is 100% foolish for not targeting them if just a limited quantity. The engines are developed… certify them for US use and they have a product ready to go. I bet if you talk to most VW diesel buyers they are more then happy to pay the premium for them. Makes no marketing sense yet it IS really happening. My local VW dealer stocks 10 Diesels and turns them around fairly fast.
Why are US diesels not GM’s fault? Because they can’t take their euro diesels (which probably aren’t that competitive in their markets) and offer them to US customers for a reasonable price? How is that NOT GM’s fault.
What tax does GM have to pay on Diesels? The new VW diesels qualify for tax rebates for customers… AND they get 45 MPG and are fun to drive… There simply is no GOOD reason they can’t offer limited quantity diesels. BTW not offering them just shows to one more import buying segment how GM could care less about its customers and potential customers.
If anyone needs to get over “it” (whatever that really is….) perhaps you should take a look at reality. Diesel cars sell in the US… there is a niche market for them… that is a market GM could go after successfully.
Do you objectively consider your decisions after test driving every product in the same class as the GM vehicle you plan on purchasing?
Here’s some objectivity… the Toyota Camry I rented was more fun then the last GM I rented… it had nice features that are very useful to me (small features but not to be overlooked or down played). Even the shift pattern on the Camry’s auto turned a normal commute to work into a fun driving experience. I can’t say that about GM’s ordinary shift patterns….
None of us enjoy American Auto companies suffering. But the truth is when we scream what they need to do and what things people want people like you and the typical GM atittude surface and say “you don’t need that or you are wrong, you aren’t objectively looking at the facts”. The real fact is ‘I’ as the auto consumer poses the power to determine what is right for me. I vote with my sales transactions and buy what best meets my goal.
I’m pretty sure everyone on this forum wants to buy GM… but when competition offers better, more like-able alternatives and GM is caught playing the “objectivity comparison game” to justify their offerings its any wonder people say to hell with it and buy imports.
You are right no amount of advertising or media admiration will convince certain people to check out GM products. What will convince people is for people such as yourself to shut up and let the rest of us tell GM what they can do to make things better. And then GM has to actually listen and deliver the things people are telling them they need to fix.
How about getting cars out there with more rich features then imports, more innovation at the same price. To reiterate my previous example. The lowly Camry rental has things that not even the CTS has (like nice places to hold cell phones, sun glasses and even tissues… trunk trays to store oil and antifreeze or whatever they are really for… these aren’t needed features but convenience features like cup holders which just add a bit of boost to the consumer feel good and ease of use in daily life. Thinking back to the CTS I sat in I honestly think the Camry interior has easier to use cup holders placed more effectively and an interior that is almost as nice even if containing lower quality materials.
If you want GM to make a real come back they need to use these blogs to brainstorm the features and things people want in their next car, styles etc…
This blog should not just be a propaganda tool but a true communication channel.
Merlin Caine,
Technology prevails to some extent. VW diesels are around and people buying them and still getting 40+ MPG with them.
This country is still great, people just don’t seem as interested in trying new or different anymore. GM doesn’t have the b*@@s to take the risk on selling 20K diesel Cruzes a year or the brains to sell 10K Equinoxes that way. How much does it really cost to do the engineering for diesels? How much are they really regulated beyond EPA emissions laws… is there a law that prevents GM from selling X number of them? (I doubt it).
It is up to the creative engineers to figure out the future of products.. there are ways but many aren’t open minded enough to take them.
Having quality that’s as good as your competition is certainly a good thing, but it’s not very compelling (i.e. Not good enough.) Having pissed off a whole generation of car buyers who vowed to never by a GM car again, you need to actually be better than the competitors the (Old) “Bad GM” drove them to. The quality gap may be history, but the scars remain; tell me what you’re doing to WIN, tell me what you’re doing that would make me want to dump the car maker that provided a reliable trouble free ownership experience. Many owners left GM for a good reason, now it’s up to you to provide a compelling reason to return.
The way these studies have been interpreted by Mr. Spina is a key issue in all this. I reviewed the study and I see a couple of key points.
First, one or two years on the radar for quality scores does not equal a reputation. Reputation is an average over a longer period such as average length of ownership.
Second, if you look at the categories within the initial quality rating, they’re mixed between design quality and mechanical quality. GM has always had good ideas, but quality is how they’re executed, not how they were intended. If you look at “Overall Mechanical” Buick gets a 4/5 “Better than Most”, but Cadillac and Chevy get 3/5 “Average”. Note that it is impossible to get a 1/5. The lowest rating is 2/5.
Finally, a touting of a 19% increase year over year is more of an indicator of how far there was to go than how far you’ve come. When you start low, then it’s easy to show big gains. I’d rather see how many people out of 1000 rated 5/5 or 4/5 year over year. If it goes from 200/1000 to 238/1000, a gain of 38 that’s 19%. Not really impressive. if it goes from 800/1000 to 950/1000, a gain of 150 that’s 19% and impressive too.
“I see, disproportionately, GM (and Chrysler) cars on the road with peeling paint. These things are rolling advertisements for another brand -any other brand! I don’t know why GM doesn’t give out coupons for a free paint job and mitigate the impact of these eyesores”
As a service manager in a dealership that sells both GM product and an Asian import product I can tell you the Asian import has more paint concerns than our GM cars with cars they build in the US. What I have found out is that in the past a large part of the issue with paint is that our environmental regulations limit the paint process and materials used here. Our import lines US built cars do have more paint problems than the Asian built cars.
On the warranty side I have personnaly seen warranty repairs drop by 50% in the last few years.
Also beleive me, when the imports need major repair, and they do, it is much more expensive than the same type of repair done to a GM product
I know all the service managers in town and every one of their import shops is full of broke down cars.
I think people are overly critical of Gm and under critical of their imports.
As a last note I think what GM has done in closing so many good dealerships is come back to haunt them. Some of the stories I have heard it seems outright criminal what has been done to them as well as some of the Chrysler dealers.
To those who blindly believe in anything, the facts are irrelevant. What surprised me, with all this talk about the IQS not being good enough, is that no one has mentioned where Lexus finished in the latest Long Term (3 year) Dependability Study. They were not first. Nor were they second. Lexus finished third. Behind Buick and Jaguar. As for longer than that, I have my own experiences. I have only had two cars ever leave me stranded. A Volvo and a Toyota. In my opinion, Toyota’s and Honda’s are overpriced, especially used. Higher resale, yes. But not worth it as a used car, based on my experience. Not one of my many GM vehicles has ever done that. When our 2002 Pontiac Montana was totaled earlier this year, I went out looking for another minivan. While I was mainly looking for another GM, due to the over pricing of used toyonda’s, I came across a Honda Odyssey same year and nearly identical miles (80,000) as our Pontiac. I drove it, expecting it to be smoother and have few if any squeaks and rattles. Boy was I disappointed. It made our old van seem like a fortress. So for twice what our van was worth, I could have bought a van that was not any better equipped, and didn’t feel as solid, or better in any way (except space, our Pontiac was a short wheelbase). I left and found a 2003 Montana fully loaded (AWD, DVD, leather, everything) with less mileage for over $5,000 less. And lacking the squeaks and rattles.
As for the Impala transmission problem, or any other problems, even Lexus lets one slip through now and then. I currently have an Impala rental with around 13k. Not one problem. Neither did the last two Impala’s I have had, including one with 28k on the odometer, which is quite high for a rental. My mom has drives a 2005, and I believe she is nearing 100k on hers, and no major problems there either. I’m guessing that it was either a fluke or an abuser getting excited about having a new car.
On going the distance of 150,000 miles or more…
-1994 Pontiac Grand Am, sold it with 160k on it and it still ran great, with no major problems. Last I saw it, it must have been nearing 200k and still going strong.
-1996 Saturn SL2, best car I ever owned. Still kick myself for trading it in, and only did to get something bigger for our expanding family. At 95k, still had original brakes and clutch, and never put it in the shop for anything outside of routine maintenance.
-2000 Chevy Malibu, only sold it because I got an offer I couldn’t refuse and had just acquired the previously mentioned Volvo. Bought it with over 75k and only standard stuff (battery, tires, and a water pump @105k) done, selling with 110k on it.
-1990 Pontiac Trans Sport, My parents bought new and put 170,000 miles on it, through me and my brother learning to drive (including at least 3 fender benders). Still running when my brother traded it in for a truck.
-1984 Pontiac Sunbird, had a blown head gasket when we bought it with 140k on it. Replaced the gasket and put another 30k on it before it got totaled, getting t-boned by a Jeep.
As you can see, over the last 25 years, GM has made cars that can and do go 100-150+k, without self-destructing or rusting into the ground. Have I had not perfect GM cars? Yes. I don’t brag about the SL2’s replacement, a 2000 Saturn LW2, but in the 60,000 miles we had it, the problems were mostly minor, the worst being the leaking coolant gaskets, fixed under warranty and the suspension causing the stock tires to cup. Switched to different tires, and the problem went away.
There are good cars and there are bad cars. And there are bad examples of good cars and good examples of bad cars. And EVERY manufacturer has built some in each category. Keep fighting GM, the truth will get out there. And then maybe some of the Toyota and Honda followers will open their eyes and see that GM is actually producing quality cars that get good (often better) mileage cars and trucks.
>Steve:
When you say your car needed two new steering columns what are referring to exactly? I had a minor issue with a half shaft and it was replaced and the problem has not resurfaced. What was your issue?<
The Steering felt like it was disconnected from the wheels, there was a clunking noise also. GM is known to have issues with their electric steering and yet the same problems crop up with the same faulty parts for years now. I find that inexcusable.
My Cobalt still has front end issues that the dealer claims doesn’t exist. It hardly elicits confidence in GM. I was still willing to give them another shot but one look at the ‘09 Cobalts changed my mind. If anything they have gotten worse, not better.
Sheth jones: “1. If you have such disdain and lack of faith in GM products you should continue to drive your chosen import and give the GM lectures a rest. Trust me, you aren’t saying anything new or enlightening.”
The moderator is free to drop my posts and go to a Soviet style forum.
Sheth jones: “2. European cars were never known for reliability so the fact that CR supports that notion really doesn’t mean much”
Your point was that I like what CR presents. I pointed out that I do not, in fact, like what CR tells me, I just respect it and their advice serves me well. In other words, and I know this is difficult for you, but try to hold on: you were wrong.
Sheth jones: “5. Famous import problems (Toyota sludge, Toyota transmissions issues, Honda transmission issues) never seem to be reflected in their data. I’ve never gotten a real explanation for that.’
Here’s your explanation… Internet hype by those who hope and pray Toyota and Honda will implode of their own accord have taken an insignificant problem and blown it out of all proportion. I know eight people with that motor. I have that motor. None of us have problems; we simply change our oil every 5-7.5K. miles and they tick right along. Of that group, my 3.0 is the baby, at a mere 82K miles. The rest are all over 100K.
Of course, you knew this all along but you prefer what internet hype tells you to the opinions of those earnestly trying to build a database when the opinions of those trying to build a database is at odds with your preconceived notions.
If I knew 8 peole with trouble-free GM cars at 100K miles, I would probably be willing to buy a GM. Sadly, I do not know 8 people who reached 100K miles in a GM without at least either one spendy malfunction or a lot of little nuisance malfunctions. In fact, I don’t know 2 such people.
Now, if the current crop of GM vehicles is really there on long term reliability, then in 6 years I might know 8 people who reached 100K miles without significant trouble. That may change things… for me and for others. So, get yourself a good book to read and prepare for a long wait.
Sheth jones, “6. Models that are built in the same factories get different ratings at times. In addition, they give wildly different ratings to different trim lines of the same model even though in most cases the engine is the only difference.”
You know, I’ve heard that often enough. One time, the assertion was accompanied by actual model names and I looked it up; the assertion was basically wrong. The models were rated slightly differently. If you’d like to dig up some specific examples, I’d be happy to give your claim some consideration. (also applies to
Now, it’s also possible that ratings on used cars will differ because of different dealer experiences. The Corolla/Prizm and Vibe/Matrix come to mind. One of each pair is service by Toyota and one by Chevy/Pontiac. Do those differ? There might be a good reason why. I know rework was the order of the day both for me and for my friends at the local Chevy dealer.
Shethe jones: “7…”
Domestics actually, often enough, get good new car reviews. Maybe not often but it’s not a systematic shutout. But subpar reliability history makes a difference.
Good quality and good reliability come from good processes and culture oriented to those results. Consistency is very important (they taught me this in Manufacturing Statistics Charm School at a former place of employment and then again where I work today – and I believe it and I’ve seen the results of good and bad first hand).
“Initial Quality” means your product doesn’t fall apart in the first month.
Wow, what an achievement.
Let’s discuss 5-year quality, shall we?
How about 10 year quality?
Seriously, those are metrics I use to judge quality when I make a car purchase, because I’m not trading every 2 to 5 years. Convince me your product will last by offering a 5-year 60,000 mile bumper-to-bumper transferable warranty, and a 10 year 125,000 mile transferable emissions/powertrain warranty, and I’ll take your claims seriously.
And so will a lot of other consumers.
Hmmm… a co-worker had his Civic engine completely fail at 150,000 miles. Tales of 500,000 mile Civics are overly exaggerated. A contractor at work once had a Civic automatic transmission prematurely fail on him at great expense, and since then he got another Civic whose transmission is dying. He’s not looking forward to the bill, either.
The difficult thing with quality is it’s all about statistics and big numbers. The fac that one individual or even “all my friends” had no problems or lots of problems with a particular brand or product doesn’t say anything about overall qaulity levels. Nothing, nada, zero, zilch !
So most of those blogs here pro or a particular brand are not really helpful because not statistically relevant. Obviously the affected individual having to replace an engine or transmissions sees this quite differently, but that’s not the question.
I am afraid we’ll have to go back to the statistics and (assuming they are done correctly) rely on them. Which of course includes the fact that you might well end up with a broken engine even with the “statistically most reliable” product out there. It’s just the likelihood that was in your favour, you’re still walking home.
I don’t get it. I’ve been driving GM’s for nearly 40 years and have always been able to get a minimum 150,000 out of them without major powertrain or chassis problems. Sure, I’ve had to replace a starter, battery, muffler, shocks, etc. Any import owner that tells me that they’ve NEVER had to replace any of the aformentioned items on their Toyota or Honda is full of it. America seems to have serious self-esteem issues, as reflected in the comment I saw posted on America Online last year: “”Anything that’s made in America sucks donkey-#@*%”".
Edvard:
I am going to be as clear and concise as I possibly can. I don’t have a problem with Toyota quality. If you love Toyotas please continue to buy them. The fact that YOU (or anyone else) claims that GM vehicles do not last more than 150k miles does not make it so. Can you understand that? I don’t know of many Toyotas or GM products with over 150k miles because 90% of car owners do not keep their vehicles that long. Most people I know get rid of their cars in 7 years or less. I would dare say you are in the minority if you keep your vehicles to 200k miles. YOu did not address my point about maintenance and repair costs at all. Are you suggesting that Toyota products don’t need costly repairs and replacement parts over the course of 10+ years of ownership? Even Toyotas use components that wear out after a certain amount of time and you will have to spend money to replace those components. After 100k miles or so you will have to spend money on ANY brand of car. To suggest otherwise is disingenuous.
By all means keep driving Toyotas if they are flawless. But do not lecture me about what I don’t understand. Its not that I don’t understand, its that I do not care. For the length of time I plan to own a car a GM product is likely cheaper to own. I personally have no desire to drive the same car for 15 years and the same can be said for most Americans. I care about pricing, styling, incentives, financing rates, low maintenance costs and features- all areas where Toyota products come up short. Out of all the import brands Toyota would be the last one I consider for numerous reasons.
You and I both know there is no reliable way to determine durability of vehicles over the course of 200k miles. You claim you want proof that GM vehicles can last longer but there is no way for you to get that proof and you know that. I also notice the derisive tone you take with regards to their “supposed” improvement in quality. Its not a myth, its a fact and its supported by JD Power and to a lesser extent Consumer Reports. Everyone (except die hard Toyota fans) is in agreement that their quality is improving. Same applies to the German brands as well. Everyone has studied Toyotas methodology and implemented some form of it to improve quality. Its not a secret anymore and you see the results. 20 years ago Hyundai was seen as a joke from a quality perspective and now they are routinely performing well in quality surveys and their warranty surpasses whats offered by Honda and Toytoa which speaks volumes about their confidence in quality.
Could you explain to me why GM offers a 5 year/100k warranty if their quality is unchanged? The warranty alone tells you they believe their powertrains will be bulletproof for AT LEAST 100K miles and you are here telling me their is no reason to believe their quality has improved. That is illogical.
Sandy:
There is more to a car than reliability. The Vibe is mediocre from a fuel economy, styling and interior quality standpoint. The Equinox gets better mileage than the Vibe in spite of being much heavier and larger. Toyota’s 2.4L engine is not very efficient and the Vibe should get better mileage. The interiors of the Corolla, Matrix and Vibe are very disappointing when compared to the Mazda 3 or VW Golf.
Michael W.
I woudnt make generalizations about the manufacturers based on your experiences with dealers. I’ve never had an issue getting a warranty repair on a GM product. Edmunds.com maintains a fleet of long term cars and blogs about them daily. They have noted no major difference in quality of service between the import and domestic branded dealers. There are minor annoyances and inconveniences across the board when it comes to service visits. That said, the domestic cars are typically cheaper to service.
Edvard:
I would love it if you can define “without a problem” specifically with regards to your Toyotas. We had a Corolla in my household and when we sold it there were about 137k miles on the odometer. The transmission and engine never failed (it was a stick so the tranny really couldn’t fail) but that does not mean the car never cost us any money. Money was spent on tires, battery (wires fused to the lugs which made it nearly impossible to install new one- never seen this in American car) new clutch (car got towed when clutch failed), brakes, emissions controls for inspection, etc. In addition the tape player had stopped working, the antenna was broken off and the driver’s side door handle had broken in half. The engine was still working fine though. Are you suggesting that over the course of 200k miles your Toyota products never needed anything but oil changes?
“If GM is really confident and proud of the quality of their work, whey don’t they publish the mean time between failure (MTBF) numbers for their cars? High MTBF numbers would be a real indicator of quality.”
I agree Gunnar. If GM has so much confidence in their design and build quality, then why not publicly release the mean time between failure numbers for their cars and their major components? Other industries commonly use MTBF to judge quality and reliability. It is a number that really does allow consumers to judge the quality of a manufactured product.
GM, why can’t you release the MTBF numbers for your cars?
“You and I both know there is no reliable way to determine durability of vehicles over the course of 200k miles.”
That’s simply not true Sheth.
As others have already pointed out, there is quality measurement many industries (particularly aerospace) commonly use known as “Mean Time Between Failures.” If GM has that much faith in their quality, perhaps they should be the first auto company to publicly release their mean time between failure numbers.
If we could compare GM’s MTBF numbers to those of Toyota, we would have very good comparison of their quality.
Uli,
Of course 8 people with bad GM experience are statistically significant because they impact future purchases. 8 people tell 4 more people each who then tell 4 more people each…. and then another 8 people tell another 4 etc… pretty soon you have the problem GM has now. So yes maybe a few problem cars aren’t a big deal but they can sure impact the future a lot.
Carl Johnson,
Its not JUST mechanicals but also interior and electricals that are a problem on high mileage vehicles.
Sheth,
“But do not lecture me about what I don’t understand. Its not that I don’t understand, its that I do not care. For the length of time I plan to own a car a GM product is likely cheaper to own.”
Those of thus who don’t trade our car every few years DO CARE… and we DON’T Care about what you say regarding certain issues being discussed because we DON’T agree with you.
” I personally have no desire to drive the same car for 15 years and the same can be said for most Americans. I care about pricing, styling, incentives, financing rates, low maintenance costs and features- all areas where Toyota products come up short.”
That is your own foolishness/preference if you choose to buy a new car every few years but are worried about maintenance costs. If I buy a car and own it for 15 years and get 200K out of it I’m probably ahead of you total cost wise… so please re-explain your viewpoint. I simply am not seeing any logic in it. If you want a new car just to have something new and different thats fine but what about those of us who want a car to serve our needs and don’t care about newness as long as it continues to serve those needs.?
As far as features go please list where Toyota products come up short? My recent experience with a Camry tells me otherwise (and I AM looking for a GM product to directly compare/compete with it because I typically a GM purchaser).
Actually there are metrics for vehicle longevity unfortunately GM is the only one who has them. We call this engineering (which can predict and show how long parts will last etc..) And GM tests show what we see on a 200K mile car… what they do with that data is another thing.
There is no Doubt in my mind GM quality is improving… I just hope they keep it up so I can find something that meets my needs and wants in the GM product lineup.
GM offers 5 years because their POWERTRAIN quality has gone up…. they ALSO now have government backing to back up those warranties…. show me a 5 year 100K mile bumper to bumper warranty and you’ll have my attention.
Isn’t the Vibe and the Toyota Matrix the same vehicle? Irony how someone loves a vehicle that is in fact a Toyota.
“We had a Corolla in my household and when we sold it there were about 137k miles on the odometer. The transmission and engine never failed (it was a stick so the tranny really couldn’t fail) but that does not mean the car never cost us any money.”
Interesting.. few of my GM manual transmissions ever failed before 150K miles… to bad they don’t offer many Front Drives with Manuals… must be like Diesels… no one wants them.. ironically Toyota seems to offer the Camry in a 5 or 6 speed manual (not sure which off the top of my head).
I would suggest that brakes, rotors, clutches are all normal replacement items.. or at least in my GM’s have been…Not sure what to say about shocks and ball joints/tie rods… they don’t last more then about 80K on GMs…..
Rick Spina,
GM owners know GM cars are the best. When GM is selling lots of cars and has a best seller on the market no one will be saying ‘quality gap.’ Of course there has never been a quality gap. The quality straw man is a way for the media to rib GM for not having high sales.
And why doesn’t GM have a best seller? Design, Design, Design, Style, Style, Style, Marketing, Marketing, Marketing, Brand Mystique, Brand Mystique, Brand Mystique. That may not be your department, but perception falls under the title of Quality.
Just look at what’s happening now. Those of us who would like to see GM offer a small fuel efficient V-8 have been saying it for some time. But we’ve also been saying that Cadillac should offer a 4 cyclinder. We are enthusiastic about the future Corvette V-8 which may provide some excitement for luxury sedan powertrains and some PROFIT for GM.
Just think, if Cadillac had a CTS at least available in a 4 cyclinder ecotec it could sell more V-8s. No one cares about a V-6. A V-6 is a concession from the get go. Think of why someone buys a V-6 in the first place. The only reason is they don’t want a 4 and they cant’ find an 8. So what inspiration is there to trade for something exciting when all there to chose from are a V-6? Zip, nada, none. Lincoln is only offering a V-6 on its MKZ. Lincoln would sell more if it offered a 4 cyclinder and a small V-8 and skipped the 6 or offer the 6 too if possible and track the sales.
If the CTS at least offered an ecotec, it would qualify for the $3500 voucher for the cash for clunkers trade in.
Guess who offers a 4 cyclinder Luxury option that meets the mileage for the cash for clunkers trade in. LEXUS IS and ES. Lexus ES and IS are BOTH rated by the EPA test at 22 mpg average to qualify for the cash for clunkers voucher and not a single Cadillac or Buick is (except maybe the 2010 LaCrosse 3.5). Some other foreign near luxury sedans also qualify. The Buick Lucerne and 08 LaCrosse rate at 21 mpg. How is that possible when the Buicks have better highway mileage than Toyota and Lexus? The EPA denied a good rating to all the 3.6 and up engines. That is just wrong.
GM has to do more to challenge these EPA tests and get a fair rating. Why didn’t the GM lobby ask for the bill to recognize GM’s better highway mpg.
GM needs to immediately stick a bunch of ecotecs and 3.5’s in the CTS and ship em out to get the sales. Put em on order and take the vouchers.
SELL CARS.
And these quality reports are not so scientific. How can they say there is a difference in initial quality between two models that come off the same line with different brand names.
“The Vibe is mediocre from a fuel economy…”
Sheth,
My experience is counter to that. For the Vibe I recently rented, I got a fuel mileage of 39 mpg over a 400 mile round trip.
For you to say the fuel mileage of the Vibe is “mediocre” only reinforces the fact you don’t what you are talking about, or perhaps worse, that you like to gloss over what you do know while trying to make a point.
Sheth,
When I mean “without a problem”, that statement is in regards to the non-maintenance components of the vehicle. Yes- we all know that tires, brake pads, and batteries wear out on any car. That’s a given. But let me give you a rundown of what our experience has been.
1: 1996 Tacoma ( my truck) Bought new off the lot. I still own it and it currently has 220,000 miles. Other than changing the oil every 3,000 miles and putting on new brake pads every 60,000, that’s been the extent of its maintenance. The original clutch was recently replaced ( did it myself in 2 hours) at 210,000 miles.
2: 1998 Avalon. This was my Mom’s car then she sold it to my brother. She knows nothing about cars and my Dad is too busy to work on them. Thus the oil and other stuff got changed only when she or I remembered it… which means it probably went 10,000-15,000 miles between changes. When she sold it to my brother, we changed the radiator fluid, transmission fluid, and cleaned the intake. At the time the car had 220,000 miles. That was the first time any of those items had been changed yet it still ran fine. Now it has 260,000 miles and we changed the timing belt. That was the original belt meaning it lasted approximately 3 times the time it was designed for. The car still has perfect compression and despite being filled with tons of gadget features like seat warmers, all of it still works despite the fact the the car has been seriously abused.
3: 2002 Tundra. My Dad’s truck. This was Toyota’s first attempt at a full size truck. It was ’supposed’ to be a dud according to a lot of loyal full size truck enthusiasts. 225,000 miles so far and again- it has not needed anything major.
These are all vehicles we currently own. All have been flawless in regards to their non-maintenance components. The Toyotas we used to own were the same with one exception: We had a 1988 4runner that had the right front wheel bearing go out on us. It cost $150 for the repair.
So here’s the deal: Like I mentioned before, I trust Toyota products not because its my goal to bash GM. I also never claimed that GM makes a bad product. I also know people who have GM products with 300,000 miles on them. But from the people I know, there are way more people who own GM products with defects and unsatisfactory ownership experiences than those I know with Toyotas. Sure- perhaps that’s a bit anecdotal. But across America you’d probably find much of what I mentioned to be true. So again, I trust what Toyota builds. I do not have that same regard for GM even though I would like to someday. GM needs to hear from people like me who tries to keep an open mind yet looks at cars from a practical perspective. Build good products that sell themselves through real quality and we will buy them. That’s it.
Lastly, I do appreciate the efforts of the Big 3 of late. They have made huge strides. Some of their products I find very appealing. But time is the real determining factor here which will tell the truth if these improvements means high quality products that give their owners no need to worry about their reliability.
Nate:
I will say the same thing to you that I’ve said to others: if you have so little faith in GM products and they are as unreliable as you say buy another brand. Why are you here? I cannot understand why you post her DAILY when you have NOTHING positive to say about ANYTHING GM offers. You claim GM makes little that you would buy and Toyota, Honda, VW, etc. meet your needs perfectly. Why not post on their blogs? I owned an Alero and it has numerous issues (that were fixed without complaint by dealer) but out of the GM vehicles that have been in the family is was by far the most problematic. No issue ever resurfaced after being corrected and for the last year I owned it there were zero problems. My first car was a Suburu and at times it would fail to start unless you turned the key 10 times or more. Also, interior controls detached from the driver’s side armrest and there was a terrible wind noise problem that I could never fix. The car had 51k miles when I got it.
I understand the concept of used car quality but we weren’t talking about that. Edvard and others claim they need their new cars to last 200k miles with no problems like Toyotas supposedly do. To be perfectly blunt I am not too concerned about how a car performs at 150k miles because I wont keep it that long. That said, a properly maintained GM car can last that long without a doubt. This “200k mile test” is a farce to discount the success of GM in JDP surveys. I notice that the expectations keep increasing as GM does better and better in reliability surveys. Next you will be telling me you need a car to be problem free for 300k miles before you will consider it. That is just ridiculous in my book. There is not one single car sold today that will be cheap to own over the course of 150k-200k miles.
Augie:
“If we could compare GM’s MTBF numbers to those of Toyota, we would have very good comparison of their quality.”
Where can we find that data Augie? You tell me. I said there is no readily available, reliable data rating the durability of cars with 150k+ miles. You said nothing to dispute that.
Nate:
I know its hard for you to understand basic points so let me try this again: MOST Americans trade in their cars after 5-7 years. MOST Americans do not keep their cars for 15 years. MOST Americans do not plan to put 150k miles on their cars. MOST used cars sitting on the lots of new car dealers have less than 100k miles. The market for used cars with 150k-200k miles is minimal and most people want to trade in their car while it still has decent value. Once a car hits 200k miles it’s basically worthless. Do not pretend that I am one of the few people who does not drive the same car for 15-20 years. You are delusional if you believe that 6-7 years of ownership isn’t normal in 2009. Back in the 1960s and 1970s people kept cars for even less time and traded in frequently.
The oft mentioned 5 year bumper to bumper warranty is NEVER happening. Why? Dealers make profits off extended warranties. Only one major automaker offers a 5 year total warranty- Hyundai. Toyota, Honda, Nissan nor Ford offer 5 year bumper to bumper warranties. The powertrain is the most complex and costly to repair part of the car and that is why its covered for 5 years by GM and most other manufacturers. The longer warranties offered by Hyundai/Kia and a few other minor players are full of fine print and exceptions and are not transferrable which means a used Hyundai does not get the 5 year B to B warranty. Read them carefully.
“Interesting.. few of my GM manual transmissions ever failed before 150K miles… to bad they don’t offer many Front Drives with Manuals… must be like Diesels… no one wants them.. ironically Toyota seems to offer the Camry in a 5 or 6 speed manual (not sure which off the top of my head). ”
Finally, you get something right- no one wants manuals. Acura isnt offering a manual on the TSX V6 because less than 5% of TSX owners get the manual transmisison. The CTS also has a very low take rate for the manual tranny. Toyota offers manuals on the Camry so they can automatically had the price of the auto to virtually every car they sell. Go visit a Toyota dealership and tell me how many Camrys with manuals you can find. Technically Toyota offers an SE V6 model but when I tried to build one on their site it told me that combination wasn’t available in my area and I should pick another trim.
“I would suggest that brakes, rotors, clutches are all normal replacement items.. or at least in my GM’s have been…Not sure what to say about shocks and ball joints/tie rods… they don’t last more then about 80K on GMs…..”
Any data to back that up? Of course not. All of the components you mentioned get replaced on imports as well once the mileage piles up. As I said, a die hard Toyota fan (and there are many on this site) doesn’t count anything as a problem unless its a catastophic failure. The point is that an older car is going to cost you money and time because parts will fail and components will have to be replaced. Period. Even on Toyotas. My freind’s Maxima had a failed catalytic converter, a cracked bolt supporting the engine mounting brackets, a idling problem and a starting/stalling problem with less than 100k miles. The car has been traded in after draining $3k from their account.
Beaugrand:
We don’t expect objectivity from your comments but I would just like to note that JDP, not GM sets the parameters of the survey. Its absolutely absurd to criticize GM for touting their performance in these surveys. If you get a Lexus brochure at an auto show you will find a section dedicated to all the JDP awards they have garnered over the years. Why would it be acceptable for Lexus to tout their performance in quality surveys but not GM? JDP measures initial quality and 3 year dependibility. One reason they probably don’t take it farther than that is because the older a car gets the more the owner’s habits become a factor in the durability of the car. It would be hard to account for the wide range of behaviors with regards to following scheduled maintenance.
Charlie:
Your lack of knowledge about statistics is part of the reason you have trouble comprehending my issues with CR. The Toyota sludge story isn’t about “hype” as you put it. Look it up on the internet, its a well documented problem that cost many owners thousands of dollars. This notion that “smart” people didnt experience the engine failures is a crock. Not every engine is going to have the same issues- for example not every 3800 or 3400 that was made during the era of the Dexcool fiasco had the problem. Why is that? No one knows but it doesnt mean that the people who had the problem were guilty as you seem to be inferring of the folks who had the Toyota sludge issue. CR’s results are shaky because they interview the SAME people every year. Anyone who reads CR and takes its advice in terms of cars is going to be partial to the brands that CR recommends. Its common sense. CR should do a random survey if they are confident in their methods but they wont because they know that a random survey would cost more and produce different results. Just as an example of how slanted their results are look at customer satisfaction ratings on CR and Edmunds.com. In CR imports DOMINATE the customer satisfaction rankings EVERY year. No surprise since the magazine is a veritable monthly ad for import branded cars. At Edmunds.com many stalwarts like the Camry and Accord are outpaced in customer satisfaction by domestics or Hyundai products. Why is that? What accounts for the difference in opinions if CR’s readership base is representative of the population at large?
Also, please spare me the anecdotal reliabilty evidence unless you provide some context. If you know 20 people with Toyotas and 3 with GM products (which seems likely based on your tone) there is no point in telling me that you know 8 people with Toyotas that have NEVER had an issue in 100k miles. MY sister in law has a camry and she had numerous warranty repairs and some repairs after warranty. Her AC didn’t even last 6 years before the compressor had to be replaced. She also had an issue with her doors not locking and water infiltration. PEople may not tell you about EVERY issue they have had with their cars- especially if they are fanatical about the brand they purchased. If you had a basic understanding of how CR presents results you would know there is very little difference between a car with excellent reliability and average reliabiltiy. CR uses a lot of shaded circles and graphs to show data but when you get to the bottom of everything they are trying to show a wide range of results when the actual variation is quite small. This is why they never reference failure rates or problems per vehicle. If the class average for problems in a particular category is .2 PPV and a Chevy model scores .4PPV it gets a below average rating. If another Chevy scores 1 PPV it will show up at the bottom of the chart and get a “poor” reliability ranking. Its nonsense. Show us the problems per vehicle or failure rates so we can see the reliability in absolute terms.
“You know, I’ve heard that often enough. One time, the assertion was accompanied by actual model names and I looked it up; the assertion was basically wrong. The models were rated slightly differently. If you’d like to dig up some specific examples, I’d be happy to give your claim some consideration. (also applies to ”
Chrysler 300, Saturn Aura, Toyota Tundra, Toyota Camry (2007), Chevy Impala. Start there- I don’t make things up. In its first year the Aura XE was recommended but the XR was not when the only difference was the powertrain. Other GM models with the 3.6L engine were recommended. Please explain.
“Good quality and good reliability come from good processes and culture oriented to those results. Consistency is very important (they taught me this in Manufacturing Statistics Charm School at a former place of employment and then again where I work today – and I believe it and I’ve seen the results of good and bad first hand).”
GM (and others) use similar quality control procedures and Gm has studied and copied Toyota’s production and quality control procedures thoroughly. Read “why GM matters” for a very detailed explanation of all of that. I doubt you would read the book because it might upset some of your preconceived notions so you will probably continue to remain ignorant. I assure you GM has paid close attention to how Toyota operates and they have been since the 1980s. Instead of making generalizations why don’t you offer some evidence that GM does NOT try to address quality with processes and culture. When a company has lost marketshare for 30 years and been pushed to bankruptcy I get the feeling that they just might be taking the competition seriously.
“Where can we find that data Augie? You tell me. I said there is no readily available, reliable data rating the durability of cars with 150k+ miles. You said nothing to dispute that.”
For a major, world-class manufacturing company such as GM not to have reliability data such as “Mean Time Between Failure” would boggle the mind. At any major manufacturing company today, the statisticians, economists, and operations analysts must have that data to be successful. Knowing those numbers is fundamental to designing and engineering a product, setting its price point, and establishing the warranties.
If GM does not in fact have that data, they are woefully neglect and not doing their proper due diligence. But I’m betting they do have it, but keep it for internal sue only.
If they really don’t have that data, they need to recruit some of the talent from the top-flight engineering schools such as MIT, Caltech, Stanford, UC-Berkely, Carnegie Mellon, Rensselaer Polytech, and Purdue to explain it to them and make it part of their business model.
“Edvard and others claim they need their new cars to last 200k miles with no problems like Toyotas supposedly do. To be perfectly blunt I am not too concerned about how a car performs at 150k miles because I wont keep it that long. That said, a properly maintained GM car can last that long without a doubt. This “200k mile test” is a farce to discount the success of GM in JDP surveys.”
Perhaps you’re not concerned about a vehicle lasting 200,000 miles, but to others who do not have the money to buy new cars every 5-7 years its very important. I’ll be honest with you. I make a pretty good income. Well into the 6 figures. I could easily be buying a brand new BMW every few years. Yet I drive a 14 year old base model 4 cylinder Tacoma with crank windows and cloth covered seats. To me, the longer the truck runs reliably, the more money I can save, thus enabling me to retire that much sooner. If I were to buy a new car- even a econo car every 5 years, I’d be blowing over $100,000 every 20 years minimum just on cars versus maybe $15k-$20k. BIG difference.
So yes- the 200k and beyond test is indeed important and a doubly good indicator of quality. A product that goes above and beyond its expected life expectancy is what gave Toyota its legacy and sterling reputation. Toyota relies on customers who are used to getting more than they expected quality wise. That’s how it works.
Winning awards like these is even more impressing to me. Congrats, Cadillac.
http://rumors.automobilemag.com/6543965/news/cadillac-hyundai-top-autopacific-satisfaction-survey/index.html
edvard:
You are over personalizing this issue. Its great that you keep cars for 15 years but the simple fact is that MOST people do not. This is not about people being rich or frivolous. Cars change a lot in 7 years and many people want a model that is safer, more efficient, quieter and more feature laden than the one they have. Very few people buy a new car because their old one stopped working. This is not something I am making up, its a fact. 200k mile durability is not measured by any independent source that I know of so even if GM vehicles are getting to that mark we have no way of knowing. That said, its pointless to say “I will consider GM products when they all hit 200k miles without a problem like my Toyota”. How will you know if and when that happens?
Since most people do not keep their cars for 15 years I would say Toyota established its reputation by making cars that were far more reliable over the course of 6 or 7 years than American models sold in the 70s and 80s. Since Toyota first become successful in the US in the 1970s I seriously doubt most people were buying them because they knew of others who had 200k miles on their models. When you consider the time most people keep the cars its reasonable to say that most new cars sold today will be relatively problem free for their owners. CR and JDP note that problems today are increasingly bordering on annoyances rather than mechanical failure.
BTW, I’ve seen ad campaign for Chevy trucks documenting owners will well over 150k miles on the odometer. You can keep almost any vehicle running for a long time if you do the maintenance and replace the necessary parts. Also, vehicles can last a long time and still cost you a fortune to own. Mercedes vehicles have a reputation for being durable but not necessarily problem free.
Insideline tracks numerous vehicles for 12 month stints. The last two vehicles to get towed were made by Honda and Chevy. Both had transmisison issues. This is the second Honda product they’ve had in their fleet that required the use of a tow truck.
“Cars change a lot in 7 years and many people want a model that is safer, more efficient, quieter and more feature laden than the one they have.”
Aw c’mon Sheth, you know that’s only marginally true.
Most people trade in for new cars because of a desire to be fashionable, trendy, and to make a social statement. They have self-visualized social and class images to uphold, and those who can afford, they want to show up at church, their country clubs, or their weekend getaways in the newest, most fashionable models.
You yourself said in your opening, “Cars change a lot in 7 years…” You’re right, they do change, but that change is primarily cosmetic. With few exceptions, true mechanical and engineering changes advance much more slowly.
You of all people — as evident from the many diatribes you have directed at Nate about Toyota styling — know that the automobile business is primarily about style and fashion. The auto makers are also fully aware the key component of their business model is fashion, and with few exceptions are rarely about engineering innovation.
I’ve owned three cars in my life, one Olds and two Buicks. Each one of them was extremely reliable. But, this entry from GM really frustrates me, because long-term reliability studies show that GM, on average, badly lags the foreign competition. Yes, I care about initial quality, but long-term quality is far more important. GM should recognize the gap- not pretend it’s not there and lead me to believe they don’t give a darn, which is why they’re bankrupt in the first place.
Could this be why market share has been declining for 30 years?
It almost went to zero.(out of business)….. bankruptcy is the last chance…… is GM going up or down for the last time? GM has a long history of ignoring customer complaints….will they listen now?
long-term quality is far more important
Scott,
You have to understand that in their view, long-term quality is a mixed bag. Long-term quality means consumers would hang on to their cars for a long time, in a business where getting people to buy new cars often is a positive and the road to profitability.
Companies such as GM have to walk a fine line between long-term quality and durability, and building cars that wear out (or become unfashionable) in a short term so we have to buy new ones.
Planned obsolescence was big in the 1950’s, but it’s not dead — even now approaching the 2010’s.
Cedric,
A reputation for good long-term reliability is one thing that helps to sell a your old car, quickly, for a good price. Good retained value makes it easier to trade up to a new car.
A reputation for good long-term reliability is one thing that helps to sell a your old car
Charlie,
Certainly true. But good long-term reliability also means I’m more likely to keep a car for 10, 12, or 15 years, instead of trading it in for a new one after 3-4 years.
Buying a car and then driving it for 10-15 years is not in GM’s long-term best interest. It’s a thorny problem for them. They have to achieve the perception of quality and long-term durability, without actually making those characteristics reality.
Rick, Rick, Rick;
“When I hear or read disparaging remarks about GM vehicle quality, I get rattled because more often than not, the comments are not true.”
Too bad that you, VP of North American Motors get rattled to hear from your customers that they have had attrocious issues with the quality of your products. Unfortunately, YOU BUILT THEM! Maybe that exact mindset needs to be one the first to go! Out the Door.
Are you dare telling me the ‘documented’ issues with the quality of the two (2) GM vehicles I purchased, in cash, is not true? Over 20,000 clams to be exact! And they were not 10 or 20 year old makes either. The courts have already determined they most certainly ARE TRUE. Quite frankly, makes me really, really never want to take a look at any GM product, regardless of what new designs or claims of improved quality your company may make. GM has NOT made things right with me yet! And I have not heard one word on how GM has made it right with any other customer you and your dealerships swindled out of $$. YOUR QUALITY! It’s gonna take a whole lot more than a few percentage points in any magazine to regain the thousands of customers GM has lost. And even if you do attain an impeccable quality level, how do you plan on getting those disgruntled customers into your nasty dealerships? Wouldn’t set foot in either of the two in my city. The one wouldn’t let me even test drive a medium sized truck, I was a ‘gal’. The other wouldn’t take a ‘cash’ payment (full price) cause their finance department was closed already. Amazing I even wound up with two GM products, maybe it was a sign I should have listened to. Motor blew in my daughter’s grand am at 38,000 miles (under warranty and not covered), motor in my bravada blew at 98,000. Then the catalytic converter, then the fuel pump, then etc, etc, etc. (not even going to go into all the little things (and they all cost $150 each…funny, that seems to be a majic number…not nickel and dime anymore).
Even though I am a very disgruntled GM consumer, I am still very concerned about GM, primarily the effect of it’s bankruptcy (be humble…very humble…you still have your job when thousands of your employees/coworkers do NOT) on the economy of the U.S., and most specifically the taxpayers.
Your numbers may be improving, but your corporate culture is not. It does not take much to show improvement in quality when there was 0 (zero) to begin with! And it will be extremely difficult for GM to get me to believe otherwise. Beleive me, I have told many more than 10 people, who have told more than 10 people, who have told more than 10 people etc. etc. etc. You get the picture.
I understand that you are all ‘gung-ho’ about GM, you get paid to be, we do not. It seems that GM is still not understanding the very simple principle that your paychecks are a direct result of sales. Even though your sales have plunged, I think your paycheck should reflect the direct correlation of that plunge! Maybe then you will understand how we, the regular schmo’s, feel when we get the shaft. I will also wager to bet, if I were a betting person, that you are one of the Management who gets a brand spanking new vehicle every six months. Well, I would be all ‘gung-ho’ about my employer if they did that too! How ‘gung-ho’ would you still be after the brand new vehicle you bought for YOUR 16 year old daughter blew, while she was out in BFE, after driving it only 8 months? THAT IS DISPARAGING!
Rick;
I would like for you to understand my description of Quality:
In my job:
1. I have 100% Customer Quality. Translates to, making each and every customer nothing less than 100% satisfied. I make it a point to make sure that each and every customer that I come into contact with has nothing less than complete satisfaction, whatever their need may be. Result: Customers come to me, over and over again, increasing my customer base.
2. I increased a department’s sales 500% in 6 months. Translates to, not only achieving 100% customer satisfaction, but long-term relationships and acquiring new sales from recommendations from those whom I have given exceptional service. Result: Customers come to me, over and over again.
3. I increased total store sales 100% in 3 months and was in direct competition with the top store in our region (not district). Result: Customers come to me.
It does not matter if the product I am selling them is a cost-effective version, or the top of the line. I cater to my customer’s needs, whatever they may be. I bend over backward to make sure they are nothing less than delighted with their purchase. If they have a problem…I fix it to their satisfaction…even if it costs me a little extra in the short term. I do that because I know that if I do, they will return and recommend me to their family and friends.
Bad mouthing customers who have had issues does nothing but drive them away even further and you will loose them forever.
Sheth,
Most people might trade in cars and replace them every few years with new ones.. but you are neglecting the other side of this: USED CARS. People want cars to last regardless. To say otherwise is to be very naive and stupid. Maybe not 150K miles but at least 130K or so. That said I’d bet if cars lasted longer people wouldn’t’ replace them as soon. Can you say with 100% certainty that there is no system coupling or link between life of used cars and purchase of new ones?
I’m pretty sure I can say there is a definite link between new car sales and life of used cars. There does exist a percentage that want a new car every year but I think this is and will become a smaller and smaller number.
So you can argue all day long that the life of the car doesn’t matter.. but if that is true why not tell GM to make a car designed for 30K miles since most people replace around that time….
GM should never consider compromising on durability. For that matter a 100K 7 year bumper to bumper warranty would be a great PR boost. If GM is designing them for 100K miles why not a full bumper to bumper?
Sheth,
Not meaning to keep beating this subject to death, but the last time I looked the avg American kept their cars for 12 years. Secondly if you look at auto related industries that are winners on Wall Street, they are mostly car part sellers. Couple that with industry-wide faltering auto sales and it tells you that that average has probably gone up: People are keeping their cars longer.
Secondly, most any car made today will last longer than cars made 20-30 years ago. It wasn’t uncommon for cars to be totally worn out before they hit 100k. Now its more like 250-300k. People have much longer commutes than they used to. I personally drive 100 miles per day. I know people who drive more then that. In fact one of my friends has a 1999 Tacoma with 450,000 miles, most of which he put on it in 6 years. It also used to be that by the time a car had say- 150,000 miles on it- it looked like it: trim coming loose, paint fading away, the interior full of holes. Not so today. The Avalon I mentioned earlier with 260,000 miles still actually looks pretty decent with no oxidation of the paint.Simply put, cars are better engineered today than before.
I agree with a lot of other comments here that if people buy cars more frequently, they do so due to the fashionable aspects of it. I work in Silicon Valley and the drive to work is like a auto fashion show. We’re talking untold numbers of brand-new BMW’s, Mercedes, Bugattis, and Bentleys. Its not that a 5 year old BMW or Audi won’t do the job to safely deliver its passengers to their destinations… its more that this year’s model happens to have new shiny LED “moon lights” or maybe an extra seat warmer or two. Hardly any of these luxury brands carry very high reliability marks, yet people buy them because they are status symbols. Personally I think its all kind of stupid, but hey- that’s just me.
Petra Butler,
To “blow” a motor out at 38000 miles or even 98000 miles in the case of your Bravada, some very serious things would have to happen. Did a piston rod break, or a head gasket rupture, or did either engine have a bearing failure? Any of these scenarios point to owner abuse, either by not properly maintaining the vehice (oil and filter changes) or by pushing the motor at high RPM’s for extended periods. In my 30 years of driving and 9 GM cars I owned, none of them blew a motor. In fact, the ones I sold or traded were running fine and all had over 100000 miles on them when I let them go. The point is, if you properly take care of and maintain the car, other than normal wear and tear items that occaisionaly have to be replaced, the car should be fine.
I think GM needs to take a good long hard look at Harley Davison’s history. They too were in a very bad predicament for years because they too overlooked Customer satisfaction by manufacturing sub-standard bikes. Once they got a new CEO and got rid of Rambler, they again shifted their focus on product quality which in itself increased customer satisfaction. They stopped cramming the production process through when the appropriate metrics were not being met in any given part of the manufacturing process…they stopped that whole line, fixed whatever needed to be fixed…once that metric was fixed, they resumed the process. They broke up the entire manufacturing process into segments, so if they needed to shut down one line, it did not necessarily shut down the entire plant. They are now producing nothing but the top of the line now (just like they had originally started out as being) and consumers have to wait in line to even get one and they don’t rightly care what they look like or how much they cost.
Like GM, Harley Davison was once a great American Icon, they too lost sight of what their customer’s wanted (even though they had severe die-hards that would buy them no matter what). They did not receive any sort of bailout either. Once they made up their mind to produce quality machines again, they updated their manufacturing process to make sure of it. And then they back it up.
General Motors needs to update THEIR manufacturing process like that. Don’t just slap the parts together and wind up with 200-300 redo’s. What a waste. Just do it right the first time. Make sure all the parts meet specs before you put the vehicle together in the first place. Stop the damn line if you need to and don’t use plastic screws (cheap parts). Then GM COULD offer a 5 or 10 year 100,000 mile bumper to bumper and meet that goal. And don’t make your customer’s be your R&D. That should be already included in the purchase price…(ie: Dexcool).
Rocket88:
If you believe cars do not change over 7 year periods you know even less about the industry than I feared. Cars evolve rapidly and 7 years is a long time. 7 years ago cars lacked AUX jacks, USB hookups, navigation (except high end vehicles), cylinder deactivation, 6 and 7 speed automatics, direct injection, stability control (except luxury vehicles), HIDs and numerous other features that are relatively mainstream today. Again, if you have a problem with the concept of buying a new car I don’t understand why you waste time on this blog. Why not just drive your car for 20 years and be happy? Why attack GM and individuals who chose to buy a new car every 6 years? I don’t see what you hope to gain from being here.
“But, this entry from GM really frustrates me, because long-term reliability studies show that GM, on average, badly lags the foreign competition. ”
Not true, check out JD Power’s 3 years reliability results. Buick was tied for first place in the latest survey. What evidence do you have that GM lags the foreign competiton in long term reliability? What surveys are you referencing?
“Not meaning to keep beating this subject to death, but the last time I looked the avg American kept their cars for 12 years.”
evdard:
You are 100% incorrect and I guarantee you there is no documentation to support that claim. If the average American kept their car for 12 years the US auto industry would collapse. And you don’t even seem to acknowledge that leasing exists. What about that? Close to 50% of some luxury brands “sales” were leases before the credit crunch. Why not look in your local paper at the used cars for sale and see for yourself. How many 12 year old used cars are local dealers advertising in your part of the country?
I’m not here to debate WHY people get new cars. You and Rocket can have fun trying to figure out why people don’t keep cars for 15 years. I didn’t say there was anything wrong with keeping a car until the engine explodes but I did say most consumers trade in after 6-7 years. People get tired of driving the same car or need a new car for family reasons. Sometimes people trade in because they want something with better mileage. There are many reasons why the average consumer doesn’t hold on to their car for 15 years but the bottom line is they don’t. That was my only point. I will also say its ALWAYS cheaper to keep an older car running than to go out and buy a brand new car. This idea that GM products will be too expensive (or impossible) to keep running past 100k miles is a joke. Even if you spend $500 per year in repairs you are still spending far less than you would on a new car so if its an old GM car vs a new car payment the old GM car wins every time.
Robert:
I agree. I’ve never heard of GM producing motors that “blow up” randomly. In fact, that sounds like something that is rare for any brand of car. But it appears Petra is an expert on all things GM so I suppose we are not qualified to question her assertions. I don’t think angry rants are going to get the attention of GM employees that read this blog but that’s just me. Could be wrong.
Nate:
I will repeat for the 5th time that GM (and other manufacturers) will NEVER offer 5 or 6 year bumper to bumper warranties because dealers make profits off selling extended warranties. Furthermore, someone (like you) who is extremely biased against a brand is not going to change their mind based on a warranty. In spite of Hyundai’s industry leading warranty most Toyota/Honda owners continue to believe Hyundai cannot match the Japanese in quality. If GM offered an 80K warranty you would be on here complaining about how it should cover the car for 100k miles. Anyone who reads your commentary knows you will never be satisfied with anything GM does and that’s why I continue to question the point of your posts here. Basically, anything short of you personally running the company is going to be a problem for you because you don’t support anything GM does from a product or quality perspective.
Also, I never said longevity doesn’t matter. I said that NEW car buyers do not buy a car based on how it will hold up over 200k miles because they will get rid of the car long before that milestone is reached. There is a correlation between REPUTATION and resale value but there is no way to know if cars with higher resale value actually last longer. No data out there tracks that information. By your logic GM (and Ford) models would make lousy police vehicles and taxis. Do you think that Impalas and Crown Vics hit 150k-200k miles in those duties? I suspect they do. Most of the cabs in my city appear to be at least 10 years old and yet they are still running for 12 hours a day. How is that possible? Why aren’t all taxi companies using Hondas if American products arent durable? Wouldn’t it be in their best interest to buy cars that can easily last 150k miles?
Robert;
Yes I performed all necessary routine maintenance on both vehicles, especially my daughter’s grand am. By the dealers. The issue was the Dexcool coolant GM was using in those vehicles and the engine sludge the stuff produced. Even though I sometimes have a ‘lead foot’, I, nor my daughter, ran either vehicle at high rpm’s for extended periods of time. And, YES, it was a very serious issue. I had purchased an extended warranty on my daughter’s car…the dealer did not honor it (they wanted to charge me another 8 grand for a GM motor). I found a company that rebuilt motors with a 5 year 50,000 mile warranty (all machining done at their location and they also build race motors) for 2,500 installed. One her car, the grand am, it was the dexcool and lower intake gasket failure. When I contacted GM directly, they sicked their high priced attorney’s on me (which taking them to court etc would have cost more than 8 grand for a new GM motor, on top of all the court hassle and stuff). I slapped the new motor in it and sold the car for 1,500. Within a year the depreciation of that vehicle was 9 grand (not including taxes). We began noticing problems with the way it was running within the first week after the purchase. My daughter kept taking it to the dealer who told her there was nothing wrong with the car and that it was the way she was driving it. She was not racing it or anything, just driving back and forth to school and work. Third time she took it there and the Service Manager told her that, I went over to have a little chat with him and informed him that he really did not want to make me come down there again and to fix the damn problem with the car. That never happened and we wound up taking it to another dealer (both were GM) the one we wound up taking it to is now a Honda dealer.
As far as my Bravada is concerned, I don’t run it on high RPM’s. Have all the regular maintenance done etc. First started with little things breaking. The windsheild wiper arm = 150, the passenger seat adjustment lever = 150, the little plastic cover for the radio dial thing = 150, the windsheild wiper arm, again = 150, the radio dial itself = 150,etc. After 3 years, I had to start replacing the heating and cooling system (now totals 4 or 5 times (have lost count)), A grand a pop. Last year, replaced the entire motor with a Jasper motor. 6 grand. Thought that would be the end of it, no, a month later the catalytic converter went out (due to the sludge from the dexcool), 2 grand. Another month and the fuel pump went out…another 2 grand. Took out a loan to get that taken care of so, instead of owning the thing outright, like it should be, I owe 10 grand on it and am forced to keep it until that’s paid off. That’s why I have mentioned before, that had I not had to fork out all that dough for both these vehicles, I would be driving a brand spanking new vehicle right now. It’s sad and very upsetting…especially when you hear the VP for Quality say that ‘he’ gets rattled to hear these things because he doesn’t think they are true. I am sure that with his 6 digit income, 20 grand + is no big sweat! I am a regular working schmo, and it is a VERY BIG deal for me.
Regular scheduled maintenance and the dealerships. No abusive driving. Except when I backed over that boulder in the parking lot at work…but, hey, it IS an All Wheel Drive and it did just that! I am not complaining about the front end alignment I had to have done because of that either. But, by golly, it went over that boulder like a peach! Just glad my boss wasn’t watching! I normally drive like a grandma…at least that’s what my daughter, friends and co-workers say and maintain my vehicle.
The whole reason I bought the Bravada, was that it was an SUV. I drove a ton of different ones. I liked the Bravada the best… it fit like a glove and had some nice features…stereo, dealer installed sun-roof, heated seats w/ lumbar etc. With an SUV, you can expect to get 200,000 – 300,000 miles before any major repairs…so I thought. I went for GM instead of the others (mostly foreign) because I was under the impression they were still building quality products and was expecting to have a vehicle that would last a while with no major repairs. Same with my daughter’s car. In fact, with her car, Consumer Reports had just reported that the Grand Am was one of the most reliable vehicles on the road…hence, I bought it for my daughter. What I did NOT know is that GM was using their customers as their independent R&D Department with that Dexcool coolant.
These were not the first GM products I have bought. Depending on how GM handles this information from here on out will dictate on whether I will ever buy another one…ever! They really need to clean up their act…like Harley Davison! The reason I participate in these blogs is because I feel very strongly that GM needs to hear exactly what the REAL issues are…if they don’t know, they can’t fix them. And, if they want to stay in business, they have a whole lot of fixin to do! They need to improve their quality, honor their warranties, provide not only acceptable customer service, but exceptional customer service, from their dealers all the way to the top. If a dealer does not honor the warranty, then GM should. That’s why we buy the warranties, otherwise, they are just worthless pieces of paper and VERY poor PR for GM.
Sheth;
Have you looked at the FYI Blog on GM’s website? It’s full of vehicles from the 20’s on up! There is a huge market for people that like old cars, and will pay top dollar for them. They just can’t be a piece of junk! Where I live, we even have Car Shows specifically for those cars…mostly American Muscle Cars…and guess what…a lot of them are GM. That means that GM USED TO MAKE top quality vehicles. That’s all we really want, is for GM to build cars like they USED TO! They were noted for their Quality. Need to get back to that!
And, there is a HUGE market for people who buy nothing but used cars, but nobody is going to buy them if they don’t run or are known to be not reliable.
My biggest issure was with Ricks statement was that the quality gap is history. I think the correct and more apporate statement should have been, we have come a long way in improving our product quality and will continue to do better until we erase all doubts about who make the best quality cars and trucks on the market.
Petra Butler,
You use Harley Davidson as an example of a turnaround. It is my experience with owners of Harleys that they have had numerous quality problems with their bikes recently, and have horrid experiences with the dealer/service at the dealership. The dealers usually add on about $3500 above msrp doc fees, security packages, and initial setup. These are not optional- if you don’t pay these hidden fees, they will not sell you the bike.
On another note you did not reply to my earlier comment about your engine problems. With all seriousness I would like to know what exactly “blew up” on both engines. This would help show if the problem was truly due to a defect, or other causes. Thank you.
Scott M,
I think you’ll find that if you review the numbers for the last JD Power VDS (a long term data point) that GM cars have stacked up well in that survey for years. “Badly lags” hasn’t been true for at least a decade.
It’s also a fact that vehicles that typically score well in IQS also score well longer term.
Robert;
I forgot to mention that the lower intake gasket was an issue that was also included in the whole dexcool litigation thing.
Petra,
Harley didn’t get a bailout – that’s true.. What they did get (long before it came to the same situation as GM) was a set of tariffs that favored motorcycles over 700cc’s and made it much more (45% tariff) costly for Japanese companies to build motorcycles larger than 750cc’s and sell them in the US. It would be the equivalent of GM getting a “domestic content” tariff that said any vehicle with less than 75% domestic content (like most Toyotas at about 45%) would be subject to a tax of 25% of the retail price. How would you feel about that?
They did improve quality but their motorcycles are still not at the same level of quality as a motorcycle of the same price from BMW or Ducati (which are at the HD price point) – let alone Japanese motorcycles. What they did do was make desireable “must have” products. Much like GM has been working diligently to do for about the last 8 years. This allowed them to charge more and sell more motorcycles 750cc or larger. You can see examples of this kind of work at GM in vehicles like the Silverado, Sierra, Escalade, Corvette, Malibu, LaCrosse, Enclave, Traverse, Equinox, Acadia, Camaro and many others.
Most issues that affect passenger vehicles are not issues related to manufacturing. They are issues related to design. You do have to have a robust manufacturing process but GM has that, (Harbour report) http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2008/06/05/089107.html
When Toyota had engines that filled with sludge and told customers that it was their oil changes or their oil that they were using that was a design problem – not a process problem. When Honda had automatic transmissions that locked up at highway speed it was a design problem. Quality issues are almost never related directly to the assembly process because the controls are well understood and have been for decades and the amount of variation is negligible.
“If you believe cars do not change over 7 year periods you know even less about the industry than I feared.”
Sheth jones,
Did you even read what I wrote? Of course cars change over seven years, I stipulated that they do. But that change is primarily cosmetic and a matter of fashion. True mechanical and engineering developments don’t evolve that rapidly.
Adding an AUX jack, or Bluetooth, or a USB port are cosmetic and fashion changes and are not essential to a car’s basic function. The other engineering changes you cite are not new, have evolved slowly, and have been available for years. In fact, I owned a diesel in 1984 with direct injection. And don’t even get me started on HID headlamps. People that insist on using those are among the rudest drivers on the road with absolutely no consideration for oncoming drivers. They are like looking into an arc welder and should be outlawed.
The only thing that will get people to not worry about GM quality when considering buying a car is to match Hyundais warranty-5 years bumper to bumper and 10 years powertrain. Then they need to one up Hyundai by making the warranty completely transferrable.
You believe in your quality, GM, then put your money where your mouth is.
Your current powertrain warranty is meaningless if it doesnt even cover steering and suspension components.
Petra Butler
Thank you for your reply. I had totally forgotten about the Dex-cool problems with sludge (I saw it starting to happen on my cars (2001 Impala and 2002 Cavalier), flushed the systems myself, and replaced it with the Prestone universal coolant. I haven’t had a problem since.
To everyone else out there reading this, the Dex-Cool caused real problems in GM cars. When it sludged up it would clog the radiator ports, making the radiator unable to cool efficiently, thus causing oil to break down prematurly and thus causing engine bearing failures. The 3.4 L lower intake manifold gasket problem is a well documented problem not caused by the Dex-Cool. It is a design flaw that can be remedied yourself if you know how to work on cars, or by an independent repair shop. Fel-Pro makes a replacement gasket labled “problem fixer” for the GM 3.4L engine.
Finally Petra, I’m sorry about the problems you have had and hope there will be no more problems with your cars.
A Couple of suggestions :
Please do some GM Quality initiatives like
1) A supplier management program like , accessing the failure rates for components from different suppliers for last 10 years ( just need data mining ) and find which components died the most and find why they died, choose the suppliers
congratulate them pass best practices and get feedbacks and look how you can improve or do cost cutting.
and for the rest give a “product/process improvement plan” and check how they do in next couple of samples or cut them and recontract to better people .
2) A dealer management program where look at the customers and how many times they took to identify the problem , who they fixed it etc and same above things like dealer improvement program should do.
3) Another site for getting feedback from customers – like they can give compaints, people look on it , classify and respond back and make sure its categorized properly and take actions on them,
ex: complaint on dealer, complaint of vehicle etc. and make sure they are addressed
4) Use of Onstar for proactive analysis : Introduce this as a service and let the vehicle report problems when systems detect and do a run analysis and give customer proactive inputs – like do firm ware updates directly through on star, for miss reading – alert him to go to dealer etc.
5) Integration of Onstar data and analysis with dealer network so they can find and fix problems effectively.
I know the above implimentaiton is only one time but if this is done with a continuous monitoring, i am sure GM will be back in track in no time .
Sheth,
Are you sure you didn’t retire from GM like 5 years ago? Your attitude is EXACTLY why people are not buying their cars…… I mean, by the way you talk I swear you worked on some assembly line stamping fenders for Chevys for 30 years and cry and complain about every person buying a Honda, as if it’s your duty as an American to buy an American car simply because it’s a birthright.
Get off your soapbox for one minute and think about some people’s horrible experiences with American cars. I own a 2000 Honda Prelude with 212,000 miles. I just bought a 2009 Accord EX V6 coupe with a 6 speed manual – I am PROUD of both of those cars because they are money spent wisely. I bought the Prelude brand new in Dec. 1999. I hate to get rid of the car because it still runs great and it handles fantastic. Show me a single American car from that era that you can say that about with those kind of miles. And although I do take care with the oil changes and routine maintenance, I certainly DO NOT baby the car. I drive it like it was meant, taking the revs up to 7500 when I want to have some fun. Show me an American car that can do that.
I haven’t had to recharge the A/C and it still blows ice cold. The interior does not rattle, squeak, or feel cheap. When you shut the doors, it’s still like a “whoph”. The dashboard hasn’t cracked or discolored. And all the accessories still work like new: power windows, moonroof, cruise, wipers, HVAC, rear defrost.
No, you need to get out and talk to more people who’ve condemed American cars for good, and ask them why. I guarantee you will find many, many people like me.
And by the way, Mr. Spina,
If disparaging remarks about GM quality are not true, you and your company are doing a horrible job getting the word out. I still have yet to see Bob Lutz or someone from very high in the company do a comercial and get personal with America. Appologize for the garbage you sold us over the years. Show proof – not just some JD Power ranking thing, but show us the materials and engineering and assembly processes today vs those from 10+ years ago.
HOW ABOUT GETTING ME TO BELIEVE THAT THE SAME UNIONS FROM 10 YEARS AGO ARE BUILDING THE NEW CARS BETTER THAN THEY USED TO!!!
You’d have an easier time convicing the Pope he’s not Catholic!
SteveG,
If you look at Hyundai’s warranty you’ll find that the following items are covered only 3/36
Paint, Radio, Battery (only 25% covered in the third year), Air conditioner. And the warranty isn’t transferable. When weighed out GM’s covers more and it covers more than the first owner so if you buy a used car with 10,000 miles on it you aren’t SOL.
“But that change is primarily cosmetic and a matter of fashion. True mechanical and engineering developments don’t evolve that rapidly.”
Rocket,
You are in denial and are making statements that border on foolish. Cars are redesigned every 4-6 years and technology evolves rapidly. 7 years ago GM made nothing bu 4 speed automatics. Now more than half of their lineup has 6 speed automatics. 7 years ago GM had a handful of DOHC engines (maybe one?) and now they have DOHC engines in most of their cars and crossovers. Technology changes very rapidly and to dismiss my examples as “fashion” changes is absolutely ridiculous. You are making childish rebuttals to points that clearly disqualify your inaccurate statements. I leave concrete examples and you essentially say “that doesn’t count because I said so!”. I said that equipment and technology changes GREATLY in 7 years and you said NOTHING to contradict that statement. Engines, transmissions, safety features and convenience features evolve greatly in a 7 year period. Next you will be telling me that computers barely change in 7 years.
Features like blind spot warning systems, rear view cameras, DVD navigation, 6-9 speed autos, variable suspensions, DSGs, autos with manual control, direct injection, music HDs, remote starting, keyless starting, etc. were either extremely rare or nonexistent 7 years ago. If you like sticking with antiquated technology that is your business, but don’t make erroneous claims about innovative stagnation in the auto industry. Such claims erode what little credibility you have remaining.
Sheth,
You again are missing the point. I may be a bit biased but this blog is about GM products. If GM listens to only people like you we’d be driving around the same old cars. People like you can’t take criticism and accept the flow of ideas regarding GM products. Maybe I come off as being unsatisfiable but that isn’t reality. I merely offer suggestions to GM so at least they have an idea where to go next. Contrast this to the past GM and customers who hold them in such high regard that their inability to recommend change has put GM in the position its in relative to their competition.
My point isn’t to always bash GM my point is to evaluate the competition and offer suggestions on improvement methods for GM. Sure sometimes I get a bit excited in my comments but what’s wrong with that?
Warranties aren’t just about customer satisfaction. They are about competition and providing the feel to the customer that is needed to maintain a competitive edge. After all why are product lives and warranties where they are today (compared to 100 years ago). Technology and the ever growing demand by consumers for more value and reliability. That won’t change. All that will happen is GM competitors will evolve and offer better warranties until they can’t afford to do so. GM will have to keep up or exceed this in order to get back “lost market share”.
My point on bumper to bumper is this “OK GM, you’ve shown a high percentage of your cars can drive 100K with minimal maintenance work… now show us that the rest of the car can hold up to that standard. Not that we drive a shell of a car where the frame engine and transmission are all that hold up”.
The other point is that EVEN GM’s current service/warranty doesn’t cover or offer the consumer what it should.
Poll people on this forum to find out their dealer experiences at non GM dealers. I can count several people I know who have had exemplary experiences at foreign car dealerships.
Maybe GM could use some new insight and approach to things… maybe a fresh outlook could fix some of their problems.
Longevity does matter to new car buyers… because I plan on buying a new car and care about how long it lasts. I’m not alone in the world many people I know buy a car and run it 150K plus. Perhaps you live in an area where people have no concept of what things are worth or just have tons of spare cash to throw around… but there are a lot of people who buy a car as a long term purchase, some of them drive them to the junk yard at the end of life. I guess you don’t know anyone like that.
Your comparison of Taxi and Police vehicles is inaccurate at best. Primarily because these vehicles go through an extensive maintenance schedule/plan. In fact there are companies out there that will completely rebuild either a Crown Vic or Impala (can’t remember which) to like new condition. This is very similar to what has been done for years with aircraft. This is why these vehicles last so long.
Additionally I’d imagine the fact that both GM and Ford and no Dodge offering Police vehicles one of the primary reasons they offer them. In foreign countries they use Mercedes, BMW etc….
Additionally most Police I’ve met are patriotic I think it is safe to generalize them and say that they will only buy American cars. And that is why you see so many GM and Ford Police cars.
Taxis on the other hand I can’t say that about. I’ve seen foreign brand taxis. But I’ll be willing to bet that in the past Police and Taxi version cars have had huge price breaks (certainly one reason for steel wheels on a car).
The point isn’t that American products aren’t durable. The point is they aren’t as durable as their competition in many regards and they don’t offer the same satisfaction to many buyers. Whatever that reason, that is what needs to be figured out.
The commentary about Harley Davidson is interesting. The reason they became a successful company after their turnaround in the 80’s and 90’s was because they succeeded in making their brand into a highly coveted and sought after icon. The truth is that the quality of their product is sub-par compared to most anything Honda or Yamaha builds. What they do well is image and the commitment to uphold it. They make motorcycles that are pretty much faithful reproductions of the same bikes they made in the 1950’s. People appreciate that kind of honesty. They never claim they make bikes to compete against Honda. They don’t have to because people respect their brand and as such those same people also overlook the quality shortcomings.
So in using HD as an example, its clear that reliability is only part of the equation and building positive brand equity is paramount.
Memo to Sheth jones:
Steady lad, steady.
Robert;
I appreciate your sentiment. Wish GM could/would have the same. I really feel that if GM had recalled those vehicles with the lower intake gasket problems and Dexcool and fixed it, they would not have lost so many customers. And, most certainly, like you, I very much hope I do not have any more problems with the bravada. I know I won’t with the grand am cause I sold it. I just pray that the tranny doesn’t go or anything else major. It’s been like the never ending story—nightmare. GM has still not owned up to it. And it makes me madder than h*## when I hear they give a brand spanking new vehicle to their management every six months.
In fact, given my personal situation, I think I am being very lenient with GM. I post here so they will get a better understanding of what their problems really are. I figure I am out about 20 grand, I will make at least 20,000 posts. Unless, they make it right with me! I owe 10 grand on an 11 year old vehicle that I paid for in cash…no note. My point all along has been that the amount of money I have been out, irrespective of routine maintenance, I should be driving a much newer vehicle. I should not be driving a vehicle that makes me reluctant to take trips, short or long ones. I no longer trust it. Work and back and that’s about it. And, last year, I was late to work twice because 1 the motor blew and 2 the catalytic converter went out. The dealer I bought it from is now no longer a GM dealership, but a Honda dealership. As far as resale or trade-in…I will never recoup…I am stuck. I did not, nor will I, get a bailout!
I am very serious about the fact that my bravada is the laughing stock of my neighborhood. I am not just talking about physical neighborhood either…I mean family, friends, neighbors, co-workers, etc. I belong to a number or associations and groups as well. Most people I know are switching, if not have already switched, to ANY other car maker. It IS general knowledge that the bravada was built on the Jimmy and Blazer platform, so it really deters purchases of those vehicles as well.
Joe:
Just because you don’t like my resistance to mindless GM bashing doesn’t mean that I ever worked for GM. Accusing me of such while totally avoiding dealing with the points I make is a useless diversion from the issues at hand. In spite of your rant you wont find any evidence that I have disparaged the quality of Hona products. If you honestly believe that in this entire country there are no American branded products that have lasted 150k-200k miles then you are being incredibly naive. In addition, please show me where I stated that GM has never made products with lackluster quality in their entire history. Never said any such thing. Again, I will say to you what I have said to several others- if you love Hondas (or Toyotas) and refuse to consider anything else by all means continue to buy those brands. But don’t waste time lecturing GM or GM owners or prospective GM owners. The problem with people who refuse to accept that times change and quality parity is possible is that they are not satisfied by simply driving and enjoying their import car- they insist on constantly reminding everyone how smart they are for not buying anything domestic and then make sure to attack anyone who dares to suggest that MAYBE domestic quality is far superior to what it was 30 years ago. I understand that it may be hard to grasp the concept of quality changing dramatically in 30 years but I do believe such a thing is possible. Hyundai has been able to drastically improve in a matter of 10 years and the results speak for themselves.
I am not going accept the notion that EVERY Japanese car last 200k miles with ZERO repairs and no domestic vehicle lasts for 150k+ miles with few, if any problems. If that is what you are proposing I cannot agree. With regards to interior durability I have seen 10+ year old import cars with splitting seat materials and warped dashboard components many, many times. If you keep any car long enough the interior will begin to self destruct. I have seen nothing suggesting that import interiors hold up better than domestic ones over time.
BTW, as noted earlier my first car was a Suburu Legacy. Your tone suggests you are beyond consolation and cannot be reasoned with. It took America less than 30 years to forgive Japan for Pearl Harbor and start buying Japanese cars and motorcycles and yet people like you wont give GM a second chance after making lackluster cars in the 80s. Interesting.
Nate:
I don’t take issue with constructive, logical suggestions. I do have a problem with your tough standards for GM but seeming indifference towards medicrity from other automakers. I have plenty of suggestions for GM, but I’m not going to sit here and endlessly praise other automakers that are far from perfect. I could take your criticisms a little more seriously if you didn’t spend so much time engaging in blind adoration of forgettable products from Toyota and Acura. On top of that you constantly berate GM for not offering diesels and very specific vehicles that wouldn’t sell and yet the automakers you praise don’t offer such vehicles. Thats how I know you embrace double standards. If GM made a Camry you would be on here talking about its dull design and lackluster interior. Since its a Toyota you seem to have nothing but praise for the car and have the nerve to suggest GM’s vehicles are lacking in comparison from a styling standpoint. You cannot be serious. \
“Warranties aren’t just about customer satisfaction. They are about competition and providing the feel to the customer that is needed to maintain a competitive edge. ”
Exactly and GM’s warranty beats everyone except Hyundai. I don’t get your point. You are saying a best in industry warranty isn’t competitive? Don’t get that.
Here’s another tidbit- ALL manufactueres offer longer powertrain warranties than bumper to bumper. It’s the industry standard. If you don’t agree with that type of coverage you will be disappointed by the warranties offered by Honda, Nissan, Ford, etc. As usual you are lambasting GM for engaging in industry standard practices. Since Toyota has infallable quality where is there 5 year bumper to bumper warranty? Just curious. Everytime I ask why the brands with impeccable reliability don’t offer the best coverage I get no response. Maybe this will be the first time.
“Poll people on this forum to find out their dealer experiences at non GM dealers. I can count several people I know who have had exemplary experiences at foreign car dealerships.”
Yeah well this isn’t exactly a random sampling. At least half of the people that post here are her to vent about some longstanding issue they have with GM. This is why random sampling is much more useful. To my knowledge GM brands do respectably well in customer satisfaction surveys. Do you disagree? I see you like to use the regulars here as the basis for your generalizations about GM but you have to remember this is hardly an impartial crowd.
“Your comparison of Taxi and Police vehicles is inaccurate at best. Primarily because these vehicles go through an extensive maintenance schedule/plan. ”
So the only reason these vehicles don’t break down after 100k miles is because they are well maintained? Interesting. Those touting the durability of imports say all they have to do is keep their vehicles well maintained and they will last for many years. How is this any different? If the products are as poorly made and unreliable as you claim they would be replaced by cost effective models because no public or private fleet operator can afford to keep vehicles that need constant repairs.
“Additionally most Police I’ve met are patriotic I think it is safe to generalize them and say that they will only buy American cars. And that is why you see so many GM and Ford Police cars.”
Individual police officers do not get to chose what they drive. Decisons like that are made by fleet managers and vehicles are chosen based on price, specifications, performace, etc. Domestic automakers offer cars that meet the high standards set forth by police departments across the country. There are modifications made to cooling systems, electrical systems, brakes and other things to get vehicles ready for police duty. It takes engineering time and money to offer a police vehicle. Thats one reason why you don’t see many import brand police vehicles here.
“The point is they aren’t as durable as their competition in many regards and they don’t offer the same satisfaction to many buyers. ”
And your proof is where exactly? That’s MY point.
Did a search on cars.com to see if any GM models make it past 100k miles. I hate to use any real examples here since we are engaging in unfounded generalizations but here’s a sample of what came up. BTW- 328 Chevy, Pontiac and Buick models came up with more than 70k miles within 20 miles of my house.
97 Century- 129k miles
2003 Silverado- 136k miles
1995 Buick Riviera- 112k miles
98 Trailblazer- 138k miles
2003 Impala- 112k miles
2004 Lesabr- 121k miles
2004 silverado- 127k miles
2002 express- 118k miles
2004 express- 186k miles
2003 impala- 103k miles
1997 express van- 157k miles
2003 impala- 113k miles
95 Riviera- 147k miles
99 Astro -123k miles
99 Suburban- 191k miles
99 silverado- 133k miles
2000 Impala- 156k miles
2003 Malibu- 145k miles
2001 Impala- 125k miles
2000 Astro- 169k miles
1997 Tahoe- 188k miles
97 Lumina- 151k miles
2001 Express- 184k miles
2000 Silverado- 202k miles
1999 Alero- 136k miles
1998 S10- 139k miles
1996 Silverado- 189k miles
Yes I know- they probably don’t run, their interiors wont be flawless like a 300k mile Toyota’s would be, etc. Its amazing that these cars not only exist but are on the market when you consider I’ve been told by numerous parties that GM models cannot come close to matching the durability of the vaunted imports. I’m sure I will now hear how each one of these vehicle has probably had an extensive powetrain rebuild in order to make it past 80k miles.
Edvard;
Thank you for your perspective to help me make my point. Harley Davison does not compete with Honda or Kawasaki. They don’t have to. They DID turn their image around, significantly and now are once again a truly sought after product, regardless of shortcomings. They have returned to their former Iconic status in the marketplace and are extremely profitable. You literally have to order one and wait months to receive it. The point I was trying to make, was that GM, was also once a much sought after Icon who has lost their status (among other things). May serve them well to take a look at how Harley made that transistion so successfully. Key word being ’successfully’. I don’t think there is anything mechanical on the market today that does not have some sort of glitch, initially especially. I think everyone on this blog is hoping that GM is able to make that transition and become profitable again, otherwise, we wouldn’t be here (on this blog)…we would just go out and consistently buy from a different auto maker and not give a damn…but we do.
What Quality Gap?
Perhaps this one:
“The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration stepped up safety investigations into three models: the Mercedes-Benz ML, the Chevrolet Corvette and the Toyota Sequoia.
• The Corvette investigation involves about 48,000 2005 and 2006 models. Some consumers had claimed that the electronic-stability-control system malfunctioned, “causing a sudden and inappropriate braking action without illumination of the brake lights and causing the vehicle to swerve left or right unexpectedly.””
Apparantly there is a significant issue with GM’s ‘quality’. If anyone here has noticed, there are now a total of 97 comments on this blog. Only 20-50 on the others. GM take notice! Mr Spina, take notice…this is an issue that needs to be addressed…and not by saying there is no gap in quality. Even the die hards on this blog indicate there is…or, ‘OLD GM’ mindset of customers don’t know anything?
>SteveG,
If you look at Hyundai’s warranty you’ll find that the following items are covered only 3/36
Paint, Radio, Battery (only 25% covered in the third year), Air conditioner. And the warranty isn’t transferable. When weighed out GM’s covers more and it covers more than the first owner so if you buy a used car with 10,000 miles on it you aren’t SOL.<
Does Hyundai’s warranty cover steering? Yup. I would be more concerned about replacing an electric steering system than a battery.
GMs Powertrain Warranty is better than most others but I would expect a Powertrain not to fail within 5 years.
GM needs to increase their warranty to cover everything for 5 years otherwise they won’t win back folks who have had power windows, steering, etc go bad after 3 years.
Sheth jones, with respect to the discussion of how long people own cars and whether or not one cares about people who routinely keep cars for 12 or more years…
Would you buy a car from a company whose motto was, “Our cars are great, as long as you don’t plan to keep them very long?”
Longevity matters.
Here’s an interesting report, how long do vehicles from different brands last?
http://www.desrosiers.ca/2007%20Update/Documents%20and%20Reports/2007%20OBS/Trends%20in%20Vehicle%20Longevity.pdf
The first two charts are worthless. There’s brand-specific information futher down. This is a Canadian survey, I believe. I’d like to see the latest info for US trends.
Joe;
I think sheth is on the Board of Directors, if he is not directly employed by GM. Maybe GM is paying him per blog.
Sheth;
“I agree. I’ve never heard of GM producing motors that “blow up” randomly.”
Since you are the expert: Have you not heard of the Dexcool and Lower Intake Gasket failures of numerous GM makes and models? Do NOT pretend to be such an expert is you do not have YOUR facts straight. And I am sure that GM is also not going to consider ignorant rants either. And, I also don’t suppose you would be madder than h*## if YOU were out the amount of $$ I have been. Do NOT preach to me.
I wouldn’t take this JD Power study very seriously. After all, the difference between a maker with a PP100 score of 95 and one with a score of 195 is just ONE problem per car, on average. Couple that with the fact that many problems have little or nothing to do with the vehicles themselves: “hard to understand how to adjust headrests” and “hands-free communications system doesn’t recognise a command” are two examples of “problems” that would be easily solved if the owner would bother to read the manual or try communicating while not stuffing his face with burgers. According to JD Power, what you’d risk by buying a car from one of the makers in the bottom end of their result list, is maybe one extra problem, which may very well be that the cup holder is placed 5 cm too high. Not that big I deal, IMO.
Charlie H.
Thanks for posting the link to that those statistics. For those who didn’t bother to open the link, the top ten cars in “survival rate” over the last 11-15 years are, in this order:
~ Porsche
~ Volvo
~ Lexus
~ BMW
~ Mercedes
~ Jaguar
~ Toyota
~ Audi
~ Honda
~ Acura
The first GM brand is Cadillac at No. 11. Chevrolet is at No. 29.
Not even in the TOP 10 ! …….. WOW……
The ratings speak for them selves…….
Sheth,
I like GM, I want to see them offer products no one else does. There are market gaps that can be easily filled. I don’t understand why you think such suggestions are so bad.
As far as forgettable products go… I think that is a matter of opinion. I happen to think that Acura makes a nice looking car as doe BMW, Audi, Lexus, Infiniti etc… The point is GM typically has a styling which hasn’t really seemed to appeal to certain groups lately. I think they should and can appeal to these groups (of which I am one of). There are always things GM can do to win customers.
As for my adoration of other brands… I dont’ adore them I just admit they have a more appealing product. Certainly tastes are varied in cars. But can’t deny how nice I think the previous model Acura TL interior was. Or how the lines of cars like the BMW M3 and Nissan GT wow me. Much of this GM doesn’t have but they could. Perhaps my problem is that I’ve seen so many GM products they don’t wow me like other brands do…
I honestly wish I knew how you could say GM diesels wouldn’t sell. GM hasn’t made a Diesel car since what 1980?
Show me the market research that says diesels won’t sell today with their clean and quiet technology and high power outputs.
Perhaps I am alone in this but if GM put a diesel in any of its nice cars (CTS, Corvette, Solstice, Colorado, Malibu etc…) I would consider them in a second. A 250 HP CTS that gets 38 MPG is a winner with me (compare to Mercedes and BMW diesels).
It is no different then people who prefer 4 cylinders, V6s, I6s, V8, Superchargers or turbochargers. I happen to prefer diesels due to their turbo nature, available power and great fuel mileage. They are just fun and different. If GM made a Diesel maybe others would get it too.
On that note I have to ask when the last time you drove a diesel was? I’ve driven VW diesels and Duramaxs and have to say they were fun… yes diesels can be fun (take a look at BMW if you don’t beleive that with their 3 and 5 series diesels in the US this year).
What I am looking for is a turbocharged car thats sporty enough to be fun, nice looking enough to wow me with an interior that is simple and somewhat luxurious and a power train that gets great mileage while offering decent power. A Diesel CTS or Buick best fits this description. Interestingly BMW and Mercedes offer such a car, though I don’t like BMWs interiors and have never been a big fan of Mercedes. Too bad there is no other RWD alternative like say a CTS…
After driving a Camry for more then a week I have to say I like it BUT…. there are some things I don’t like… like the super thin fuel door or the lack of a solid feeling fuel filler neck. Or things like slightly off mid power manual shifting of their auto. Excessive body roll etc… With all of that said I still find it to be a nice and fun car… I just can’t seem to bring myself to buy one. I’ll keep looking. And THAT is the problem GM (and other brands) don’t always offer cars that are so much better then my old car that I say I have to have that.
Warranty feel is more then just the numbers. I hear stories about VW and Audi owners who drive their car to the dealer park in front and a service personnel meets them and takes the car to the back for its service. They then perform their work and sometimes even give the customer a new car to drive around until their car is done. In some cases the warranty covers brake pads, wiper blades and other “wear items” not covered by companies like GM. These things speak worlds of a car companies attitude toward their customers. There is no reason GM can’t do similar for Buick or Cadillac.
Its one thing to be competitive another to go above and beyond. And I think GM needs to have an above and beyond. A no questions asked warranty on premium cars. One that makes buying and owning a new Cadillac, Buick or Vette a bit more of a unique a experience.
I have no problem with a the power train being longer then bumper to bumper. My problem is in how the bumper to bumper warranty is administered. For example… lets say I buy a new GM and the A/C controls stop working or the window motor burns out… if I go to the dealer will they replace it with no questions asked? Or will I be run around told that it isn’t covered because of X Y Z and that its not GM’s fault?
“Since Toyota has infallable quality where is there 5 year bumper to bumper warranty? Just curious. Everytime I ask why the brands with impeccable reliability don’t offer the best coverage I get no response. Maybe this will be the first time.”
Perhaps it is because Toyota has proven their quality such that their customers aren’t worried about the product breaking after warranty is up. Perhaps they know that if they take their car in at the end of the warranty or a month after it is up that Toyota will honor it and give them great service…. I really can’t say but it is an interesting question.
If people weren’t here venting GM wouldn’t know what to do to change.
To me customer satisfaction surveys are skewed and not fully representative of buyers like myself.
There is a big difference between a Police Impala going in for a 150K mile major overhaul that pretty much touches every part on the car and a routine maintenance repair on the typical import.
You are right to an extent though a well maintained vehicle will last nearly forever if parts are available.
With older Police cars there were operators/owners who didn’t like the new offerings by the Big 3 and decided it was worth it to continue to restore/overhaul their old cruisers. This is a bit different then most import drivers who no doubt have a certain point when repair costs can’t be justified. Certainly Police cars going through total overhauls have exceeded repair costs a normal driver would be willing to spend. Then again if my car was such a big part of my daily lively hood I’d do the same.
In most government contracts there is usually a clause to purchase domestic products. I have no doubt that other companies around the world are as able to deliver police cars. It just works out that US law enforcement ‘for some odd reason’ use domestic products.
Last I looked Mercedes,and BMW both make police cars for their markets around the world. I am sure a bunch of other car makers do as well.
““The point is they aren’t as durable as their competition in many regards and they don’t offer the same satisfaction to many buyers. ”
And your proof is where exactly? That’s MY point.”
How about a look around the domestic auto industry and their recent bankruptcies. If people were buying their cars would this be the problem?
Many people are satisfied with foreign cars to the point they’d never own a GM again. Not sure how to back that up numerically.
As to your data: Show us the Toyotas and Hondas with more then 70K miles that are 20 miles from your house. It would be interesting to see.
BTW the data seems to suggest people do drive cars for more then 100K.
Petra, you said:
“Apparantly there is a significant issue with GM’s ‘quality’. If anyone here has noticed, there are now a total of 97 comments on this blog. Only 20-50 on the others. GM take notice! Mr Spina, take notice…this is an issue that needs to be addressed…and not by saying there is no gap in quality. Even the die hards on this blog indicate there is…or, ‘OLD GM’ mindset of customers don’t know anything?”
THANK YOU! I couldn’t have said it any better……. see, the thing that GM does not realize, no matter how much spin Mr. Spina would like to spin, even if GM’s long term quality and reliability was aboslutely 100% bullit-proof, their reputation is such that we still do not believe them. How do they change that?
1. Mr. Spina, if you get rattled because my opinions are based on falicies, prove me wrong – not with some JD Power blah, blah, blah numbers and blah blah problems per 100 reported garbage – prove me wrong by showing me how your engineering, design, and production processes have changed and how they have improved. What are your acceptable tollerance limits on vital engine and transmission parts? Power window motors? Does your outsourcing go to the lowest bidder or the one with the best design??????
2. Advertise your quality the RIGHT way. Don’t just tell America that a Malibu is better than an Accord, show them in the comercials how well it’s designed and put together.
3. Don’t get upset at ANYONE who has an opinion that is based on what may be lies now…. but weren’t not long ago. Fair or unfair, you and GM are still paying for the Cadillac V8-6-4, Olds 350 diesel, late 1980’s paint peeling debacles, and sea-of-gray plastic interiors of the 1990’s. That’s what is still on people’s minds, including myself, and it’s going to take more than a 5 year run of nice cars to change our mind.
In fact, why don’t you buy a Honda Accord and drive one for a year. And when you’re done, tear it appart down to the last bolt. Then have your engineers compare it to every last bolt of the Malibu.
See what makes people fairly or unfairly gush about Hondas. You might find something you never thought of.
Well said comment — Listen to your customers — do not just blow them off
Quality and Value
Petra:
I’ve heard of the dexcool issue. My old car had that problem and it was fixed under warranty. The engine never exploded and the problem never left me stranded. I’m glad I didn’t have to pay for the repair. If you have a link that supports your claim that the dexool intake gasket leak issue led to explosions let me know. This is the first I’ve heard of that but its apparent you are the expert on all mechanical failures in GM products.
Angus:
A few points:
1. Its not US data
2. The data was from 2006
3. The article says luxury car owners tend to keep their cars longer and maintain them better than owners of lower end cars which likely skewed the results
4. several brands not known for great quality (Jaguar for example) are ranked VERY high on that list so I think we can assume that some people keep their cars for long periods of time even if they aren the most reliable in the world. A longevity study is helpful but only tells part of the story.
Petra:
Should I presume you work for Toyota or Ford? Based on the frequency and content of your posts It seems reasonable to assume you are a plant by one of GM’s competitors.
Sheth jones,
You said, “It’s not US Data.”
Let’s make sure I’m clear on this. You’re trying to tell me there is something about Canada that means auto data from that country is not relevant and has no application in the mid-section of North America?
That is a chauvinistic view that is of no relevance to this forum.
Nate writes, “As to your data: Show us the Toyotas and Hondas with more then 70K miles that are 20 miles from your house. It would be interesting to see.”
There’s three such parked in my driveway. 83K, 97K, 125K. We gave a fourth to a child, it has about 150K now. Aside from battle damage and a single troublesome door latch, they run perfectly. The paint is still shiny, except where abused (we wax them once every couple of years). The interiors look good, even on the van which shuttled Scouts to 6 years worth of weekend and resident camps. Only one uses any oil, about .5 qt every 5K miles. Engine oil color looks good at oil changes, transmission fluid always looks good, too. The blower motors are still quiet, the A/C and heaters all work like new and the engines are all quieter than much newer cars (no bearing or mechanical noises). The power windows all operate at full speed. No pieces of interior trim have come loose. There are no stains on the driveway.
Do you see what the challenge to GM is to secure my business? In addition, my experience with the Chevy dealer was not good. Very much not good. I am extremely happy with the service provided by the Toyota dealer. If GM’s interested, they can e-mail me and I’ll tell them why.
Sheth jones writes, (objections to the DeRosiers report).
Certain cars will be kept longer no matter what, it’s no surprise that Porsche wins; Jags have an emotional and snob appeal that persuades their owners to keep them going and encourages others to buy and hold them for the long haul. Volvo’s vehicles are unique and they are surprisingly easy to repair.
The fact is, GM’s value brand is Chevrolet and it compares poorly against the Toyota and Honda, which are value brands. Those cars get discarded when no longer suitable for use. What’s remarkable is that, as with newer vehicles on those charts, the domestics still aren’t keeping up.
Sure, it’s Canadian data from 2006. I’d be delighted to see a similar contemporary report, based on R.L.Polk data, for the US market. Got that? No? Then it’s still, “we’re just as good, trust us,” where trust hasn’t been worth much. R.L.Polk charges for this information, I’m sure, but I’m sure someone can find the money necessary to pry it from them, if so motivated.
Way back at the top of the comments, I pointed out what’s missing… Ten year old Chevvies that satisfy like ten year old Toyotas and Hondas. That’s not going to change. The date that’s going to happen still seems to be ten years away.
Charlie:
By all means keep buying Hondas and Toyotas. To be honest there is nothing GM could do to get your business which makes your continued posting here somewhat hard to understand. You seem to be commited to defending the reliabilty of Japanese autos when they arent under attack. First we heard GM models cannot last past 100k miles but now that I have disproven that (and you can to by searching used car listings) we have shifted to the more subjective “No GM car will satisfy like a 15 year old Honda”. Thats YOUR opinion not fact. I wouldn’t find any 10-15 year old car satisfying. I rode in numerous 90s era compact imports in college- not impressed. They ran but thats about all I can say about them. There were small, noisy, unrefined and forgettable to look at. I wouldn’t want to own any of them in 2009 because they are woefully lacking compared to modern compacts.
If you look at the data from the link you will see that European brands seem to be the top brands for longevity. That runs contrary to what is being preached here by you and your Japanese car driving fellow zealots. Any explanation for that? The fact that a car is still on the road merely means it has not been scrapped, it does not mean that car has been reliable. I thought we were talking about longevity and reliability here. I highly doubt that Jaguar is one of the most reliable brands on the market but apparently you disagree. Furthermore, if you look at the overall import vs domestic data you will see the gap is not huge with regards to % of vehicles on the road after 10 years.
I am not going to buy an inferior and likely more expensive vehicle just because it MIGHT last to 200k miles vs 150k miles for a GM product. That is not a good deal in my book. Maybe you have different standards but I need the vehicle to be compelling when I buy it- I cannot worry about 15 years down the road if I dont want the vehicle in the first place. I find all this longevity talk to be nothing more than a distraction from the dull vehicles being sold by your favorite Japanese manufacturers.
Angus:
Different markets have different realities. On top of that not every vehicle sold in Canada is sold in the US and vice versa. That may not worth noting to you but it is to me. If we looked at similar results in Europe we probably would see different results. It is one metric to be used and what it really shows is that domestics are generally mid pack but not MUCH less durable than Japanese brands.
Furthermore, data from 2006 that is tracking vehicles up to 15 years old is essentially measuring the longevity of models that may have been sold back in 1991 or 1992. I dont doubt that a GM vehicle made in that time fram was less likely to last 100k miles than a comparable Honda or Toyota. That was when a 100k powetrain warranty was probably thought of as a pipe dream at GM. Cars made in 1992 have nothing to do with cars made today. And not just for GM. The quality of European, American and Korean brand has likely increased greatly in that 17 year period. I know that there are a higher % of 1991-1996 Hondas than GM models on the road but that doesn’t tell me squat about today’s vehicle. I supposed we should swear off Hyundais as well based on that data.
“I don’t doubt that a GM vehicle made in that time frame was less likely to last 100k miles than a comparable Honda or Toyota.”
That’s quite an admission from you. As is too obvious, we won’t be able to get a good feel for the reliability and durability of the current crop of cars for another 10-15 years; but history does count, and auto companies can’t turn around their legacies and corporate cultures overnight. (To use a trite and overused phrase, changing the direction of GM’s corporate culture would be like turning a battleship.)
Unfortunately, the legacy of the last three decades at GM has deep roots that intertwine throughout the entire company.
Angus,
Your last sentence, ” the legacy of the last three decades at GM has deep roots that intertwine throughout the entire company”, is why I believe GM should change it’s name as they move onward toward the “new” GM……
If they continue to call themselves General Motors, or at the very least continue to use the blue square, the perception that the old GM still exists is going to be very, very, very hard to dispell.
Sheth,
“Certain cars will be kept longer no matter what, it’s no surprise that Porsche wins; Jags have an emotional and snob appeal that persuades their owners to keep them going and encourages others to buy and hold them for the long haul. Volvo’s vehicles are unique and they are surprisingly easy to repair.”
Perhaps these cars are this way because they create a positive emotional response for their owners. Jags are typically a collector’s car and are taken care of better because their owners learn to take care of things. Snob appeal? What’s wrong with that? If thats what sells cars… then thats what sells them.
I once accidently told an Aston Martin DB9 owner I had seen a lot of them. He was very offended and upset that his wasn’t the only one in town. I then told him… that I meant in magazines and he breathed a sigh of relief… turns out he paid that much for a custom car and wants the Snob factor…
The same goes with Ferrari. Ferrari requires buyers of certain model cars own other model Ferraris before they will ALLOW them to buy them. How is that for snobbery? And here you see that despite whatever metrics GM can throw at Ferrari via the Vette, people will STILL be loyal and snobbish toward Ferrari. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. I also see no reason GM can’t have a super super high end car to bring some clout back to their ranks. GM needs a bit of snobbery and a bit of pride to own them… something that some still have… but for other people to get caught up in GM’s brand they need something to be passionate about… something more then just another car competing… something special that separates them and also brings them together with other owners.
Isn’t Volvo part of Ford? Are you saying its a non GM vehicle you like?
GM has a following of fans: the Corvette owners are that way… the same goes with Jags and Ferraris. I see nothing wrong with GM creating a car that there will be a following for (such as the new Camaro)…
Why shouldn’t people hold onto cars for the long haul? Because that doesn’t make money for GM? Thats ridiculous. If you noticed that list of cars a few high end names were at the top with the least miles on them. That is because people buy them to collect rather then abuse and beat.
What I still don’t get is even after you’ve proven cars last (and therefore people drive them) well past 100K miles you think no one wants 100K or 150K plus cars… just dont’ get it. If GM builds a car that lasts 200K miles (interior included) they’d have something….
The truth is car buying opinion is what is at stake and under discussion here. My opinion and everyone elses. GM has a bunch of us practically screaming what they have to do to get their business and others are over there saying “Don’t listen to them they are full of it”. Why would a company turn our business down when most of our requests are straightforward?”
“…why I believe GM should change it’s name as they move onward toward the “new” GM… If they continue to call themselves General Motors, or at the very least continue to use the blue square, the perception that the old GM still exists is going to be very, very, very hard to dispell.”
Joe,
You are correct. There a handful of people who will always buy GM because that’s what their grandparents and parents bought. But unfortunately, the majority of consumers now have a negative reaction when they hear “General Motors” or see that blue square.
In my opinion it is imperative that the “New GM” come up with a different name than “General Motors.” It will be a tough decision for Fritz Henderson, but I don’t see any choice. The name “General Motors” now carries too much negative baggage.
I will bet a dollar to a doughnut that the “New GM” already has a “Tiger team” working on option for a new name in order to rebrand the corporation. Wouldn’t you love to be a fly on the wall at those meetings and hear their pitch to Fritz and Board of Directors?
Perhaps we should start an informal poll here on what an appropriate new name would be — any suggestions?
Sheth jones: “I am not going to buy an inferior and likely more expensive vehicle just because it MIGHT last to 200k miles vs 150k miles for a GM product. That is not a good deal in my book. Maybe you have different standards but I need the vehicle to be compelling when I buy it… I cannot worry about 15 years down the road if I dont want the vehicle in the first place.”
Who said anything about buying an inferior car? The only way my first Japanese vehicle lost to the GM competition of the day was in engine displacement, it had a “smaller” engine. But it had shockingly more power and was a nicer car. And you should worry about 15 years down the road; a reputation for reliability helps improve resale values and makes it easier to sell the car, at a higher price, in the used market. I’m not wasting my vehicle purchase money; I want as much back as possible when I replace it.
This is pretty interesting from Business Week: VW, Ford tops in vehicle quality survey
Who would of thunk it? VW and the Ford Focus.
“Volkswagen took the most awards in an annual U.S. automobile quality survey by a California research company, but Ford’s Focus also proved to be a favorite, rising to the top of the survey’s small car category. Volkswagen and Ford Motor Co. were the top scorers among automakers that offer a full line of products in the U.S. The survey looked at 20,101 buyers who bought 2008 and 2009 models between September and December of last year.”
Maxima sales were up 71 % in June.
http://www.freep.com/article/20090701/BUSINESS01/90701054/Maxima-sedan-sales-up-71-
Better have a talk with your pals over in design. People want the affordable luxury sedans segment. We’ve been telling you this over and over and over.
If they are buying a car as ugly as the Maxima (the front is ugly) it just shows how desperate the public has become to find style.
It also shows that quality perception follows design and sales.
Where is Oldsmobile when we need it?
Edwin,
The New Maxima has a nice look to it in my opinion. Not as sleek as some other cars but it has a front end that reminds me of a cross between an Aston Martin DB9 and a modern Volvo.
You are right people want an affordable Luxury car. I personally think GM did a great job with the new LaCrosse BUT when I optioned one out it was nearly 40K. Additionally what happened to the Turbo I4 or the Small V6 options? Or more importantly why does the V6 have such bad mileage?
GM hopefully has something in the works to address the public…. the LaCrosse may just be it.
“You are right people want an affordable Luxury car. ”
Who wouldn’t want affordable luxury? The problem is, if they make it affordable, it is no longer luxurious — or exclusive.
Nate,
The Milan and MKZ are really looking good and appear to have outdone the Maxima.
The new Milan should have kept the bold white light on the tail light, but overall the Milan has the exterior/interior style and colors.. Milan and MKZ need a small V-8 as an option. The Milan and MKZ aren’t getting enough exposure. The 2010 LaCrosse is going to need some exposure to climb in sales and its should have a Super edition with a small V-8 offering.
There just aren’t a lot of choices in the affordable luxury segment, thats why people are even looking at Maximas and its probably picking up a lot of Altima sales.
People want an affordable luxury sedan to park beside their Enclaves, Acadias, and MKX. The American car companies need to hone in their efforts on afforable luxury.
The 2010 LaCrosse is finally here. The new Taurus may also lure some.
The American car companies need a small fuel efficient V-8 offering for the affordable luxury segment to outshine the foreign branded cars.
Angus,
It was just reported the other day that Fritz testified in court that the new GM would still be called General Motors, so that shoots that down…… but I still think they should change the design of the logo. Get rid of the blue square. Update it to something modern and sophisticated but not flashy or trendy.
In all honesty, the names Chevrolet, Buick, GMC, and Cadillac don’t have anywhere near the negative vibe in this country as “General Motors”. So, in the future, at the very least, it would be who of GM to push the individuality of the 4 divisions, rather than the fact they are divisions of GM.
Edwin,
I don’t get your need for a V8. I can understand though the desire for a V6 over a I4. V6’s don’t have such bad harmonics. At any rate I’m all in favor of small V6s with turbochargers. I suppose there is no reason GM couldn’t put the 5.3L or even a small version of the modern Northstar in these cars. But I honestly see no need. The High Feature V6 has plenty of power. There’s no need to incur the development costs of a V8. IN fact I’d rather see a diesel offering before a V8 offering. At least that way the customer gets great mileage and good power with gobs of torque.
Not sure I’m a fan of the Milan or MKZ. Just not a Ford fan. I’m not really sure what to think about the affordable luxury segment. My view is that you can’t have luxury without higher end costs. If you want luxury at an affordable level buy a used car.
In the mean time I see no reason to go after that kind of market. It would appear to be tough to do luxury right while cutting costs. Maybe all that is needed are some high end Luxury options on Chevy. Nav, Heated and A/C seats etc…. after all the new Chevys are much quieter then 5 years ago and ride nicely (well at least the G6 I was in did). What is left to make them Luxury beside style, heated seats, A/C seats and independent climate control? I suppose they could toss backup sensors, cameras, night vision, MP3 support, blue tooth, active cabin noise cancellation etc…
Once you add all that the only thing separating a Chevy from a Caddy or Buick is styling and longevity.
Just my opinion for whatever thats worth. Though I do agree GM needs to fill the gap between Buick and Chevy. I’d rather see a smaller Buick released then a luxury Chevy though.
Until then My vote is firmly on a diesel powered LaCrosse and CTS (both with AWD).
“It was just reported the other day that Fritz testified in court that the new GM would still be called General Motors, so that shoots that down……”
Joe,
Sorry to hear that, and in my opinion it’s a mistake, but that’s why Henderson gets paid the big bucks. Perhaps he is just too close to the subject to realize the negativism that goes with the name “General Motors.”
Joe D, Cleveland, OH
Try and look on the bright side. If CEO Henderson directed a team to come up with a new name, he would probably appoint the same team that came up with the name “Cruze” for the new Chevy.
Perhaps “General Motors” isn’t that bad considering what they would likely recommend.
I have to make a comment about some of these quality comparisons. First, yes, I’m a die hard GM fan, but even I have complained openly and often about the quality of their products over the last 20 or so years. I, too, am fed up with the cheap plastics used on the interiors, bland style offerings, the all around fit and finish of the cars, etc. I’ve also watched a lot of their cool features from the late ’80s/early ’90s disappear on the more modern, more “advanced” cars they created. That being said, they have come a LONG way in quality the last 5 or so years. Granted, they still have a lot of road to conquer, they HAVE made tremendous progress in a short amount of time, and I do believe that’s due in large part to Bob Lutz.
Now about the so called quality of these imports. I see a lot of complaints about how many times people have had to send their GMs to the shop, or how quickly the motors or transmissions failed, etc. I know these things happen. I’m active on quite a few different GM related message boards. HOWEVER….a lot of you are making it sound as if Japanese vehicles are not susceptible to these same issues. Being as involved as I am with cars (fixing, maintaining and modifying), I can say with complete confidence that this is total bull! The grandparent’s of a friend of mine have a ‘09 Toyota Camry. They’ve had it a little over a year. Guess what?? After mocking my friend/their grandson for buying a “piece of crap 9 year old American car, it’s THEIR transmission went out! That’s right. The transmission died on a one year old Camry! My boss’s wife’s lease ended on their Honda Accord last fall, so they went and bought a brand new Honda CRV. A few weeks ago, the power steering started groaning around corners on it. They JUST had to have the entire rack and pinion replaced, and the service manager told them it’s a common problem. My boss’s father in-law owns a 3 year old Acura TL that needed a transmission replaced, as did the older Acura TL the sales rep from one of the companies we carry owns.
Meanwhile, my first car was an ‘86 Pontiac 6000 STE that I BOUGHT with 164k miles on the original 2.8L V6 and trans. I fell in love with the dash on those cars, and all the crazy features that were way ahead of their time. Being my first car, I beat that thing relentlessly. Always did the proper maintenance, but I hammered the accelerator every chance I got. Through the course of my 5 year ownership, I had to replace the radiator, water pump, alternator and a power steering hose, but the original motor and trans survived everything I threw at them. I got rid of the car with 225k miles on it. My current car is a 2001 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP with 136k miles on the original motor, trans and supercharger, and the thing still starts instantly, and pulls like a bat out of hell. In fact, except for one car, I’ve never owned a GM with less than 100k miles on the original drivetrain, and I’ve NEVER had a drivetrain fail on me.
Point is, we’ve developed this mentality of pointing out every time a domestic car fails, while only pointing out imports when we’re praising them, as if domestics always fall apart, while imports always prevail. It is simply not true. BOTH have their faults, and BOTH have their strong points. I will admit that Japanese cars are built slightly better overall, but this perception we have of the discrepancy between the two is nothing short of ignorant.
Rick,
The issue is not IQS, or CR, or the various auto magazines – the issue is your focus on cost reductions at the expense of everything else. Purchasing at GM has far too much decision making authority and they do not get judged on sales, only cost reductions. Further, even with your bankruptcy filing you continue to treat your suppliers like second class citizens. The same old tired game plan of global sourcing instead of strategic sourcing has got to stop. These surveys and journalists are reporting what is there – GM you build second rate cars because that is what your systems are set up to do. Build it cheap and your employees get rewarded, that’s a great way to build first rate cars don’t you think?
GM, you need a healthy dose of humble pie, and a second and third helping too. You need to tear everything apart, and start fresh with new leadership, and new ideas, and let go of everything old school. Treat your suppliers like the partners that they are instead of like dirt and you’ll be on the path to recovery.
Take a good hard look in the mirror – the problem is what you see. And the New GM is looking to be as bad or worse than the Old GM. Where did that get you in the first 100 years?
“You are right people want an affordable Luxury car. I personally think GM did a great job with the new LaCrosse BUT when I optioned one out it was nearly 40K. Additionally what happened to the Turbo I4 or the Small V6 options? Or more importantly why does the V6 have such bad mileage?”
A 3L V6 would qualify as a “small V6″ to most people. The Lacrosse’s mileage is worse than some counterparts because the car is HEAVY. Very heavy. That said, I wouldn’t not buy a car because it gets 1-2mpg less than a comparable car. The Taurus gets 18/28 vs 17/27 for the Lacrosse which is hardly a major difference. Most cars in this class cost up to $40k with all the features. Check out the Avalon and Taurus for comparison. Keep in mind a DI CTS starts at $38k with less features than the Lacrosse CXS has standard.
“Who said anything about buying an inferior car? The only way my first Japanese vehicle lost to the GM competition of the day was in engine displacement, it had a “smaller” engine. But it had shockingly more power and was a nicer car. And you should worry about 15 years down the road; a reputation for reliability helps improve resale values and makes it easier to sell the car, at a higher price, in the used market. I’m not wasting my vehicle purchase money; I want as much back as possible when I replace it.”
I said inferior car. I am talking about buying a car TODAY, not in 1990 or whatever era you are referring to. The Camry is an inferior car to the Malibu and Aura (and Fusion) in my eyes for numerous reasons. I would not pay MORE for a Camry just because it supposedly will last longer.
Resale values are pretty close these days. Check out used car listings for yourself if you have doubts. I read recently that a new Camry is projected to hold 47% of value over 3 years vs 45% for current Malibu. Not major in my book. The resale issue has been beat to death but in reality the gap isn’t that big if you are talking about trading in after 4-5 years. Besides, if the import cost more to buy and finance you really don’t “save” anything by having higher resale value. You should not allow resale value to distract you from getting the best deal up front and Toyota/Honda rarely have the best deal.
Deek,
I wish I could say thats the experience all of us had… but it isn’t. Almost every GM my family has owned since 1975 has had transmission problems before 100K miles. Not to mention a few engine overhauls.
Additionally all the Honda and Toyota owners I know who had early problems had them fixed with no questions asked under warranty. Even if/when parts fail if the dealer fixes them it really makes a great impact on customers. People don’t say “Oh that Toyota had a faulty transmission”… they say “Man I had a problem with my Toyota and they took care of me and fixed it free of charge… they even gave me a loaner car while mine was being fixed… try that with GM”.
Quality ?
Sheth,
Interesting point (total up front cost vs resale value). After driving a Camry and looking at their new cost I couldn’t justify buying one despite the nice features. Lower fuel mileage for a car that is slightly better then an Aura for more dollars doesn’t sound that great to me. Though I have to say I’ve found some low mileage Auras and G6s that are nearly new for less then 14K only one or two years old (2007/2008). Its hard to justify a Camry for 28K new when a used GM is reasonably priced. On top of that for that same 28K and similar fuel mileage a used CTS can be had and in some regard is a nicer car.
Not sure on how the new GM’s will hold up in 10 years… but if GM fixes major problems with no questions asked it wouldn’t be too bad.
All that said I’m not 100% sold on a GM yet… have a few more to test drive.
Sheth jones: “I said inferior car. I am talking about buying a car TODAY, not in 1990 or whatever era you are referring to. The Camry is an inferior car to the Malibu and Aura (and Fusion) in my eyes for numerous reasons. I would not pay MORE for a Camry just because it supposedly will last longer.”
That was 2001. I’ve driven both midsizers and if I went Toyota again today, I still wouldn’t get an inferior car.
As for “supposedly,” there’s no evidence that GM has closed the gap. That takes 6 to 10 years to determine. There are no shortcuts to rescuing GM’s reputation. You’ve seen the DeRosiers study, so you know what the score really is. Someone could talk to R.L.Polk about the necessary data for a new scorecard, if they felt that GM was getting shortchanged.
Nate,
I can attest to the dealer experience with Honda – I had a Honda dealer do work on my 10 YEAR OLD PRELUDE, and they gave me (at the time) a brand new 2007 Accord EX V6 with leather to drive for 2 days, free of charge. And the repair bill for my Prelude was very reasonable and well done……
Guess what I just bought and who I bought it from…… GM, are you listening? Can you read between the lines?
Charlie:
Actually there is ample evidence. GM brands and models have been performing better and better in CR and JD Power surveys over the years. GM has more recommended models in CR than ever before and few GM models have the lowest reliability rating in CR. You are saying there is no evidence that GM models will last 10 years or more and that is true. There is no real effective tracking of reliability for 10 year old vehicles so you can’t prove that foreign models are as problem free as you claim. BAsed on my experiences with owners of imports I have my doubts. It is your choice to place 15 year durability at the top of your list when buying a car. In fact, I suspect that’s the only thing you care about. I care about styling, interior layout, pricing, financing, features, performance and quality. The Camry loses in virtually every category and there is no way to evaluate the future quality of any new car so to me it’s inferior. Most of the automotive press agrees. I have a relative with a 2007 Camry XLE. It looks nice at a distance but upon closer inspection you find lots of hard plastics, part lines, flashing, cheap looking faux wood and other cost cutting measures.
JoeD:
I think “reasonable” pricing from a dealer is subjective at best. Since you love HOnda I am not surprised that you have no complaints about what your dealer charged for repairs. Dealers are independent enterprises and are not run by the auto companies. If you have a problem with the pricing of one GM dealer simply find another one that meets your needs. GM does not tell dealer what to charge for labor and the same applies to Honda. Many dealers have loaner car policies but that is the choice of each dealer. Honda doesn’t force dealers to offer loaner cars.
“Additionally all the Honda and Toyota owners I know who had early problems had them fixed with no questions asked under warranty. Even if/when parts fail if the dealer fixes them it really makes a great impact on customers. People don’t say “Oh that Toyota had a faulty transmission”… they say “Man I had a problem with my Toyota and they took care of me and fixed it free of charge… they even gave me a loaner car while mine was being fixed… try that with GM”.”
Nate:
Are you claiming that GM dealers dont make repairs under warranty? You have any evidence of that? I had an Alero and every problem I noted was fixed without hesitation- and trust me there were quite a few problems. To suggest that only Toyota/Honda dealers make repairs under warranty is just ridiculous. GM offers loaner cars and has done so ever since they expanded the warranty coverage. When they say “best coverage” that is one of the things they are talking about. To my knowledge Toyota, Ford nor Hyundai offer loaners if your car gets warranty repair. Individual dealers may offer this for free, but GM includes it in the vehicle warranty.
That’s a testament to a quality vehicle and great dealership support.
“I had an Alero and every problem I noted was fixed without hesitation- and trust me there were quite a few problems.”
Quality in the first 30 day and for the next 5 years —– You should not have to have EVERY problem fixed because you should not have the problems to start with ……. That is where quality comes in.
Quality and Value …….. repeat after me ….. Quality and Value……..
Sheth,
“BAsed on my experiences with owners of imports I have my doubts. It is your choice to place 15 year durability at the top of your list when buying a car. In fact, I suspect that’s the only thing you care about.”
For many owners it is no single thing. But a compilation of acceptables. For many that styling or the 15 year longevity is the icing on the cake that makes them buy.
“In fact, I suspect that’s the only thing you care about. I care about styling, interior layout, pricing, financing, features, performance and quality. The Camry loses in virtually every category and there is no way to evaluate the future quality of any new car so to me it’s inferior. Most of the automotive press agrees. I have a relative with a 2007 Camry XLE. It looks nice at a distance but upon closer inspection you find lots of hard plastics, part lines, flashing, cheap looking faux wood and other cost cutting measures.”
I’m not sure how Camry loses on features, performance, quality, interior layout and styling. I have no clue on financing and certainly know that it isn’t the greatest with fuel.
As to hard plastics I find no less or more hard plastics in Camry then I do in Malibu, G6, and other Chevy offerings. In fact if anything Toyota does a much much better job at hiding their hard plastics. Many GMs that I’ve been in don’t make their hard plastics feel and sound solid, merely hollow. So right their I give Toyota the nod… if you are going to use hard plastics do it right and make them feel nice.
As to Faux wood show me a GM outside of Caddy that has real wood… Almost all GM has it so who cares. Of the Toyota’s I’ve been in the fake wood almost always looks nice enough considering its not real….and I’ve even seen real wood that looks worse then fake wood.
I honestly think Toyota and Honda give a slightly better interior feel even if their materials are the same or worse then GMs.
“Dealers are independent enterprises and are not run by the auto companies. If you have a problem with the pricing of one GM dealer simply find another one that meets your needs. GM does not tell dealer what to charge for labor and the same applies to Honda. Many dealers have loaner car policies but that is the choice of each dealer. Honda doesn’t force dealers to offer loaner cars.”
GM dealers seem to set the time alloted to perform a repair. Not to mention dealers in my area quickly seem to figure out how to price inline with each other.
As to loaner cars… miss the point it isn’t that dealers can offer what they want it is that MOST GM dealers in my area don’t offer loaner cars. If Honda offers them at my local dealer how do you think that makes GM look in comparison?
These may be up to the dealer… but if GM sees these are things causing customers to go else where they need to step up and figure out a way for dealers to offer loaners. Even if it is loaner value dollars that dealers can use to put toward the loss the added mileage and wear of loaning new cars incurs.
You miss the fact that the mere fact that Honda does offer loaner cars speaks a lot of their dealers, the dealer attitude and it helps with their overall brand image.
Not a tough concept to get in my opinion.
“Actually there is ample evidence. GM brands and models have been performing better and better in CR and JD Power surveys over the years. GM has more recommended models in CR than ever before and few GM models have the lowest reliability rating in CR. You are saying there is no evidence that GM models will last 10 years or more and that is true. There is no real effective tracking of reliability for 10 year old vehicles so you can’t prove that foreign models are as problem free as you claim.”
If you squint any harder at CR looking for evidence that GM has caught up, you’re going to pop out a contact lens or maybe your whole eyeball. Six year reliability of the 2003s is just now swimming into view… and GM ain’t there, yet.
As for 10 years and up, DeRosiers has shown the way… which cars are still on the road at 10 years and up? R.L.Polk can supply this information to anyone who really wants to know. For a price.
As for your ramblings about style and many other completely subjective measures, that’s the recourse of someone who has lost the contests that can be measured objectively.
Sheth jones: “I suspect that’s [long term reliability] the only thing you care about.”
The car must perform (go review my original reason for turning Japanese) and provide good space and ergonomics but longevity is one of the things that drives value. I’m not driven by considerations of fashion or someone else’s notion of “style.” I shall never forget Chrysler’s “new, more formal roofline” on some one of their endless cheesy derivatives of the K-Car. They changed the roofline towards square. Who defined “formal” as “rectilinear?” And all those cars are in America’s automotive dumpsters. I’ve got three cars in the driveway that drive well, are tight and rattle-free, get good gas mileage and perform nicely. Replacing those would be, easily, a thousand dollars a month. No thanks, I’m banking that. If my needs change, they’ve all got significant cash value and I could easily find buyers.
Nate:
You are a blatant Toyota apologists and your responses lack any objectivity or credibility in my book. Toyota does a better job “hiding” hard plastics? Are you serious? You cannot be. Get in the Camry, touch the dashboard and lower dash panels. The plastics are hard. The Malibu has hard plastics on the lower panels but the design is far more pleasing. Toyota’s faux wood is some of the least convincing I’ve ever seen. There was flashing visible throughout the Camry XLE I examined. No such thing in the Malibu. As usual you make vague references to inferior GM products but offer no specifics. Why not name some examples of these “many” GM models you have sampled with cheap feeling interiors that cannot match up with Toyota’s offerings? YOu cant be talking about the CTS, Malibu, Vue, lambda crossovers, Impala, Lucerne, Tahoe/Yukon, Silverado,etc. so I would like to know which vehicles you are talking about. The lower end products from GM and Toyota are full of rock hard plastics. Trust me, I recently drove a Scion xB and the interior interior is brick hard and lacking and pretense of luxury.
“For many owners it is no single thing. But a compilation of acceptables. For many that styling or the 15 year longevity is the icing on the cake that makes them buy. ”
You cannot assess 15 year durability when you buy a new car. Styling would be a disadvantage for many Toyota products. People buy Toyotas in spite of their styling not because they find the cars alluring.
“As to loaner cars… miss the point it isn’t that dealers can offer what they want it is that MOST GM dealers in my area don’t offer loaner cars. If Honda offers them at my local dealer how do you think that makes GM look in comparison?”
I will repeat: GM’s warranty guarantees a loaner car or rental car allowance when your car is getting a warranty repair. Read it for yourelf. This is part of the 5/100k warranty that was rolled out a few years ago. I will repeat: GM cannot control specific dealers and its disengenous to pretend that you can make assumptions about what ALL Honda dealers offer based on your experience with ONE dealer.
“GM dealers seem to set the time alloted to perform a repair. Not to mention dealers in my area quickly seem to figure out how to price inline with each other.”
First of all dealers are independent regardless of what makes they sell. Secondly you totally ignore the fact that many dealers or automotive sales groups sell imports and domestics. When you continually disparage GM dealers are you only talking about dealers that dont sell GM’s competition? Do the dealers who sell GM and the competition only offer subpar warranty service on GM products? You tell me. You are the one with all the answers.
Charlie:
The much quoted POLK study shows a few things and you are chosing to ignore much of what was shown. First of all I already pointed out that the study was tracking vehicles that were sold from 1991-2006 which means its hardly indicative of the quality of curent vehicles. Secondly, the data shows that overall that a slightly higher % of imports are on the road after 10 years than domestics. It does NOT back up your claims that GM products do not last more than a few years. The gap between the imports and domestics grew as you approached the 10 year mark but it was nota huge gap. If we assume that quality has improved substantially since 1995 (ten year old cars in 2005) we can presume the gap is smaller today than in 2005. That study which you keep referencing over and over and over does not prove that American branded products cannot last 10-15 years as you have been inferring repeatedly. Using the reliability of cars from the early to mid 90s to rate cars sold today is about as useful as studying Super Bowl Champions from the 90s to determine who is likely to win it this year. The entire premise for your unsupported argument is based on cars sold between 1991-1995 which is a LONG time ago in the auto industry. The reality is there is no way to accurately estimate how reliable CURRENT cars are going to be in 10 years. According to your favorite study Hyundai’s are unreliable vehicles but lots has changed in the last 5-10 years and now Hyundai has much improved quality and a warranty that shows confidence in that quality.
“As for your ramblings about style and many other completely subjective measures, that’s the recourse of someone who has lost the contests that can be measured objectively.”
No rambling here sir, I just pointed out something that you refuse to acknowledge- there is more to a car than durability. You want to confine the discussion to 15 year durability while stepping over other factors that make a car desirable to consumers. If reputation for durability was all that mattered to consumers you can rest assured Toyota and Honda would dominate the market by now. The fact that you are talking about K cars shows how far in the past you remain. When did they come out anyway? I was probably a toddler at the time. Its ancient history and its time to move on. In 1979 I have no doubt Japanese cars were superior- the problem for you and your jaded arguments is that we are in 2009. The domestic brands are more competitive than ever in design, fuel economy, performance, build quality and features.
Sheth jones writes, “(Charlie,) you are chosing to ignore much of what was shown… the data shows that overall that a slightly higher % of imports are on the road after…”
“Imports” vs “Domestics” is very misleading. “Imports” includes everything from OUS. Naturally, there are winners and losers among the imports. If GM aims to be mediocre, then, by all means, they should aim to meet the “imports.”
You’ve got to get past page 1 and take a look at the rest of the report…
Go to page 3 and look at “passenger car survival rates.” This is broken down by brand. For vehicles 11 to 15 years old, 7th place is Toyota with 78.5% survival. They’re beaten only by Volvo and an assortment of expensive brands, including #3, Lexus. Honda is 5th at 76.x%. GM’s top finisher is Cadillac at 74.x%. Chevrolet, GM’s value brand, (like Toyota) is at 29th place with 48.6% survival.
I didn’t say a GM car can’t last N years… I said they didn’t do as well.
Nor did I say that there is nothing to a car but durability (e.g., performance, utility).
I do admit, I sneer at “style.” Style comes and goes. Chrysler’s roofline treatment is an example, the “W” front end is another, as are square headlights vs round, vinyl roofs, etc. They’re all examples of the fickleness of style. The purpose of “style” in the automobile industry is to persuade some schmuck that he should replace a perfectly good car with a new one.
But durability, utility and performance are timeless.
“But durability, utility and performance are timeless.””
These words should be mounted boldly in a prominent place in every GM design studio.
Quality and Value,,,,,,,,Quality and Value,,,,,,,, That is what is needed.
“But durability, utility and performance are timeless”
I do beleive car makers at one time put plackards like this on their cars. I’ll have to go to the local Caddy dealership and see their early 1900’s Cadillac and post some pictures.
I do agree to a point style is over rated… but it is just one more thing that draws customers in. GM needs style as much as anything else.
While JD Power says its improved I’m surprised 2 cars didn’t hold them down below Chrylser. The Cobalt and Aveo. I own a Cobalt and its a POS. I’m on my 5th time the airbag has tried to deploy, my car shuts down, the interior of my car doesn’t make sense, the electronics that GM doesn’t apparantly cover in Warranty don’t work and the car gets terrible gas milage. I have never hated a car in such a long time to the point of wanting to burn it just so I don’t have to deal with the problems and the issues that GM or the dealership where it came from tells me is normal. GM sucks at quality and the results are inside this Cobalt. Its an embarassment. I know hate is such a strong word but I get so much emotion when people ask me about my car or why I’m selling it and I just tell them its terrible and bad and the problems and hope that someone would like to take the car on as a project and can afford it. Customers and quality always last at GM now and forever I’m proof of it!
Quality and Value…… it’s pretty simple…….. When will GM get it?
I just bought a new 2009 Pontiac Vibe with 4 miles on the odometer and picked it up on June 8th, 2009. -One month later my friend tells me I have a brake light out. I call the dealership and am informed that this is not covered even though the car is brand new and that if I bring it in to the dealership, I will be charged the cost of the bulb (a couple of bucks) plus a hefty charge that is automatically done when you have your car serviced – no matter how small.
Needless to say, I brought it to the auto repair shop near where I work and the bulb was blown already and he charged me 5.00. Time will tell if there is something more as an underlying issue causing a bulb to blow on a brand new car.
From the customer perspective, this incident sums up in a nutshell why I kept my last car for 10 years and 200+ thousand miles before finally breaking down and buying a new one. Or in other words, why in the world should I have to pay to replace something like this on a brand, brand new car. I also fault the dealership – if I sold something and something like this broke so fast when the life of a tail light is obviously supposed to be longer than 30 days – why in the world wouldn’t you agree to replace it for free. It would cost you a couple of bucks but it would buy you loyalty to think beyond the bureaucratic logistics that light bulbs are not covered under warranty.
A quality dealer experience will go a long way in bringing buyers back to GM
Maybe GM should start a “secret shopper” factory rep program. Let a factory rep go into your dealers and “buy” a vehicle and see how they are treated. Are they treated fairly? Are they up sold? Are they pushed higher interest rates than they qualify for? Does the final price reflect value for the consumer?
Quality and Value…..
Let’s see — the new GM and one of the first things done is to do away with the agreement that resulted in the highest quality vehicles by GM over the past 15 years according to “Consumer Reports”.
The agreement with Toyota produced the Prism and the Vibe under the GM Label. No other GM vehicles have come near the quality of these. After this period of time, one would have expected GM to learn from the Freemont operation how to do things right. You haven’t — Wouldn’t it make sense to transfer the Vibe to Buick who doesn’t have anything to compare with it?
What Company gets rid of it’s highest quality product and survives?
What company gets rid of it’s highest quality vehicles and survives?
Good Question…………
GM has a way to go to convince customers that it produces quality vehicles.
I just saw the new Lexus commercial……. WOW!……….. Quality and Value are speaking to me……….
“Wouldn’t it make sense to transfer the Vibe to Buick who doesn’t have anything to compare with it? What Company gets rid of it’s highest quality product and survives?”
Excellent point Gerald. You would think that GM would continue to offer the Vibe as either a Chevrolet or Buick, wouldn’t you?
From GM’s lack of marketing of the excellently reviewed Vibe, I’ve always suspected they are ashamed of the Vibe’s Toyota heritage.
Yes, Mr Spina, what quality gap? What then is the story on this:
“It seems that doing a hard launch or using the launch control system occasionally results in a broken output shaft, a serious failure that will most likely leave the car immobile and in need of repair. We spoke with General Motors spokesman Adam Dennison about the problem and, as this is being written, a factory hold has been put on deliveries of manual transmission V8 Camaros while Chevrolet engineering teams investigate the problem. “
Early Camaro SS manual transmission failures reported, factory hold issued
You’ve stopped deliveries of Camaro’s with manual transmissions because of broken drive shafts? To me, that sounds like a quality problem.
I really blame all this misinformation given by people about the quality gap of GM products to the expanse of social media networks that have done nothing to GM but propagate propaganda. Good thing there are blogs like this to make sure the truth of the matter is revealed.
About the GM cars of the future, it would be great if someone from GM management would get the idea that there’s no other future of new models of Cars but to go green, hybrid or fully electic.
Misinformation????? GM’s quality ratings are below average as a company.
This needs to improve. Having as few vehicles that are world class does not excuse making other vehicles of poor quality.
Consumer Reports rates many GM vehicles below average in quality.
How would you feel if you bought a vehicle and found out it’s quality rating was poor.
Would you feel cheated? Would you want to buy a vehicle from that manufacturer next time?
As a GM owner (and only a GM owner for 35 years) here is my potential solution to both the real and remaining perceived “quality gap.” You lost owners faith decades ago. It will NOT (NEVER) return by itself, no matter how many “quality surveys” are placed in front of the public. As an earlier ex-GM employee stated, what reason(s) would someone have to give you another chance(s) if they are reasonably happy with their current vehicle? NONE – PERIOD. Put your “money where your advertising dollar are.”
1. Provide an “iron-clad” (no excuse) warranty for 10 years/150,000 miles (except tires). Brake pads and wiper blades, headlights, even air filters should be included and covered. (Incorporate the “actual minimal” (no profit) amount necessary under your extended warranty program into the base cost of the vehicle).
2. Have simple 1year/15,000 mile (whichever comes first) maintenance iintervals/requirements which customers can get done at ANY GM dealer for a “spelled out in advance” amount at the time of vehicle purchase (with a possible inflation adjustment specified) (again at just above actual cost. Use synthetic oils — to gain the 15,000 change period).
3. Replace FREE OF CHARGE any parts which fail prior to 10 years/150,000 miles. Apologize to customer for any premature failures – then replace them promptly! This will do wonders for your perceived committment to customers and bring back a “word of mouth” excellent reputation. Only clearly accident damaged parts or damaged vehicle would require the customer and/or insurance company to pay for the necessary repairs.
(You should have lost even me with premature failures of a turn signal stalk, fuel pump, and other parts which have added up to thousands of dollars in unexpected repairs over the years. I just could NEVER bring myself to support the Japanese and likely never will. When you “lose” me, it’s over folks).
BEST WISHES……..
Hyundai has been successful at improving it’s quality image. This was not accomplished thru advertising campaigns or gimmicks. They just improved the quality of their vehicles and the public noticed and began to buy.
Produce a quality vehicle at a value driven price point and the public will come to GM.
Stop looking for a new advertising campaign or some gimmick to dupe the customer.
Build the best in class — this means for the whole vehicle — Interior design, exterior design, value, performance, fuel economy, safety, defects in the first 30 days and for 5 years, customer experience at the dealer. (if you feel cheated by the dealer nothing that GM builds will make a difference)
I just finished reading the Sunday paper auto section review of the Camaro.
Reviewer writes “While the Camaro offers a comfortable ride and DECENT handling, other modern sport coupes, like the Nissan 370Z, have raised the handling bar higher than the Camaro can clear.”
To have a perception of quality you have to compete in all areas. Good enough is not good enough. Build the best in class. When you do customers will come back to GM. You have been loosing market share for years……..GM has gone bankrupt… Every year for the past 30 years GM says it knows it has to do better and it is improving in every aspect…….. Talk the talk is cheap….. walk the walk by building the best and let the vehicles speak for themselves.
Just finished reading the weekend USA today Test Drive section 10/9/09 on the Buick LaCross.
Sounds like you made a good start but you still have room to improve…..
Seats: “Look great , and the bottom cushions are fine, but the backs are lumpy. The lumbar support won’t retract enough — common to GM cars. It’s not as if there aren’t good seats to copy: most Volvos and Porches, some Acuras, VW’s ans Audis”
Trunk Hinges: “They are the crude gooseneck style that swipes trunk space”
“and there’s the still-not-correct GM Hydra-Matic transmission.” But the testers, a front-wheeled drive CXS and all-wheel-drive CXL, shifted poorly.”
There is more but you get the idea. So So is not good enough… you need to produce excellence in every category. (Interior, Exterior, Performance, Safety, Value, Technology)
Quality is the in buyers perception…… You need to be able to convince the auto reviewers that you can produce the best.
GM is coming out of bankruptcy… how many more chances are you going to get to get it right?
Quality and Value….
For too long GM has ignored criticism and continued to loose market share each year.
You need to learn from the criticism and not be defensive.
When GM’s market share is growing again then you will be able to say you got it right.
Until then go back to the drawing board and continue to fix whatever complaints come your way.
Ignoring or brushing off complaints is what drove GM down the slow road to bankruptcy.
Do not make excuses.
There is a reason why Hyundai’s market share is increasing and GM’s is decreasing.
There is a reason why Toyota and Lexus have their reputation for quality and GM does not.
The first step to recovery is to admit you have a problem.
Oh my god , Has everyone gone off the deep end? all i read is bitch and complaining about cars that people buy… Nobody holds a gun to your head and say buy my car or else … Just because you buy a car ,doesnt mean its going to last forever…. If you don’t like a auto maker , Go to a automaker you feel comfortable with … And quit complaining .. Do you think it’s going to make a difference…Do you think you can make a car that will run forever with no problums… I’m going to say “NO”… So knock it off and give some advice, Not bitch’en about your car you bought on your own free will…
People have been going to other auto makers when they were not satisfied with GM products..
That is why GM has been loosing market share for years.
Quality and Value need no excuses.
Do you think you can make a car that will run forever with no problems… I’m going to say “NO”
Paul,
Actually you can, or at least close to forever.
I bought a Mercedes diesel in 1984, and put more than 350,000 miles on it with only routine wear and tear items needing replacing. Tires, filters, belts, etc.
When I put it to rest at 350,000+ miles after 21 years, I did so because the clutch went out. I wasn’t particularly upset that the clutch went out (something has to break after 350k miles), but it would have cost more to fix than I figured the car was worth. But I could have had it fixed had I wanted to. Mercedes still stocked the parts the mechanic would have needed.
The hard truth is that most auto makers don’t want us to buy cars that run that long. It is to their advantage for us to turn cars over every three-four years.
Quality Survey is out -
Results are:
General Motors products are rated as “inconsistent.”
The Chevy Malibu V-6 was the ONLY GM product rated above average.
20 GM products were rated AVERAGE.
27 were rated BELOW AVERAGE.
The Consumer Report ratings are based on more than one million reports from owners asked about major failures and repairs to their vehicles over the previous three years.
Sounds like Quality is still an issue for GM
Average and below average are a hard sell.
What is GM’s plan to improve on these results for next year?
What is being done to review the survey results and locate each of the “problems” and work for a solution?
I have faith GM can do it. They can regain their solid position. However, it is true for too long they were hard headed about change and that is why they lost their leadership position. The good thing is that GM is “finally” listening and making so great cars.
I want to see GM succeed. I want to Buy American products from an American corporation.
You need to build Quality products at a Value driven price.
Buyers will come back to GM if you compete on Quality and Value.
Quality is more than a slogan. Lexus displays it’s “Pursuit of Excellence” in every vehicle.
There is a reason why Toyota and Lexus have their reputation for Quality and GM has a reputation that is less than it should be.
Wishing will not make it so. GM — you need to deliver Quality and Value to the customer.
“When Better Cars are Built, Buick Will Build Them.” That’s a quote from early fifties, late sixties GM
advertising. It has now receive epic joke status.