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230 mpg is disingenuous
Isn’t displaying that 230 mpg number being just a bit disingenuous? Especially, when you are trying to define fuel economy (or energy use) for a car that uses energy derived from two distinctly different sources — electricity from the grid and liquid fuels.
The real number to be concerned with is not how far it might go on a gallon of gasoline*, but how far it can go on a specific amount of energy — whether that energy comes from electricity, gasoline, ethanol, wind, gravity, or a team of horses.
Why not just drop the mpg rating completely and give us the specific energy consumption per distance traveled, whether that energy is measure in kWh, joules, or Btu’s, and whether it comes from the grid or from the liquid fuels the car’s engine burns.
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* The only valid mpg rating is how far it will go when being powered only by electricity produced directly from fuel the on board ICE burns. The distance powered by energy from the electrical grid (and stored in the battery) should not be part of the mpg calculus.
Cole,
You are correct. The Volt’s mpg rating for those miles when it is actually burning liquid fuels, will likely be very good, but it won’t be 230 mpg.
We need to know how far the Volt can travel on a unit of energy, not how far it can go per gallon. (Gallons are a unit of volume, not a unit of energy.)
Hey, they did say how far it went on a unit of energy – 25 kWhr/ 100 miles in the city. Sure some people care about gasoline equivalent usage and powerplant to wheels efficiency, but most don’t. lf these numbers will be conveyed to the public (I think GM said they will even be on the window sticker as asides), however really most people only understand mpg. They care how many of gallons of gas they use in a month. If you live in a city and drive 230 miles in month, you will use about 1 gallon of gas. It’s as simple as that. And many people could get much higher mpg if they also plug in at work/etc, or they could get lower if they weigh 500 lbs and drive like “the little old lady from Pasadena”. 230 mpg is not disingenuous, it is simply a number that the average, non-technical Joe Public can wrap his head around and expect to achieve.
I’m an engineer so I like knowing how much energy in total the car uses. But really how much primary energy a Volt will use and how much emissions it indirectly produces is incredibly variable. I for one have a lot of hydro/wind/other relatively clean power in my regional mix. So the Volt will be incredibly efficient overall and clean. But again, I suspect the average Joe doesn’t care much about these details. They just care if the car is fuel efficient and (maybe) if it is environmentally friendly.
Since this project is going to be delayed, GM needs to create a new City EV2 and smaller hybrids. They can probably do than more quickly than trying to get the synergy of the E-Flex perfected. I fear that the Volt might not come out until 2012 and any EV or small hybrids are probably a year away. By then the Leaf will be running about. Honda will have it’s Fit hybrid and CRX hybrid. Toyota might have an Auris hybrid etc. Let also not forget Hyundai and it’s five door hatch Lithium Polymer hybrid.
I hope GM has been cooking up an EV in the labs all this time. The current Volt should be abandoned and just used in a Cadillac until they get the cost down and can put it in a sporty utilitarian design more like the Prius and Leaf. The Volts body design is neither her nor there – somewhat sporty, but too sporty to appeal to institutional fleet sales and those who buy a car that has the look of eco – like the Prius or Leaf. A more friendly quirky look…
Stan,
Where are you getting info that the project is delayed? GM has said all along that the car would start production in 2010. Right now Pre-Production models are coming off the line at an average of 2 per day. The webcast already stated that there are about 80 pre-production vehicles running around. This is right on schedule for a release in 2010 …..
I have been a GM owner for decades and have kept several GM vehicles including classics.
My most recent purchase was a 2007 Chevy silverado and have been receiving these “owner appreciation certificate” valued up to $2,750. I have no use for ‘em b/c GM isn’t making what I am looking for in a truck.
This is what I’m looking to buy from GM, Ford or any other manufacturer for my next purchase,
A basic no frills GM truck with the following,
Solid Front Axle Dana 60 or better
Front Leaf springs
Solid Rear Axle Dana 70 or better
Rear Leaf springs
Manual hubs, manual transfercase, manual windows, manual locks.
Basically a no frills real pick up truck.
Thank you.
“Basically a no frills real pick up truck.”
Sounds like you’ll be in the market for the new pickup truck that Mahindra (of India) plans to build in Toledo and sell in the U.S. From the reports I’ve seen, that should be the no-frills truck you describe for people who need trucks for their jobs — and with a diesel engine.
I just got back from the design and technology event yesterday and have to say that I was seriously blown away by the experience. All vehicles I drove had extremely well-done interiors. That and the exterior treatment of the Lacrosse is very tasteful and in my opinion the first Buick that could realistically become a competitor to Lexus and perhaps even Audi.
I was pleased to see that many new GM engines will have timing chains versus timing belts. Many consumers have no idea that timing belts are potentially very expensive items to replace versus chains that can last the lifetime of a vehicle. It might be worth getting dealers to mention this feature because a typical timing belt replacement can cost as much as $1,000. Secondly, the fact that the newer direct injection engines are somewhat similar to diesels in that they are high compression, more efficient engines aught to be used in comparisons to VW’s TDI engines. Since diesel is more costly than gas, showing consumers whom might otherwise choose a VW TDI this option might change some minds.
I did have just a few comments which I thought about after the event. In regards to Buick, I think there could be a tad more detail and finesse added to the lights both front and back. If you look at what Audi, Lexus, and Acura do, they add just a bit more flair. Audi has been pretty successful with their LED pipe array in their headlights. Its just a small touch but it makes a big difference. I felt like the lights on the Lacrosse were a bit forgettable. They were nice, but not anything I’d remember. Its the shiny, gimmicky things that seem to attract luxury car buyers.
Secondly, small trucks were noticeably absent. I am hopefully assuming a replacement for the Colorado is on its way. The current truck is woefully non-competitive with the offerings from Toyota. To my understanding Ford is working on a replacement for the Ranger which will possibly come from Asia. If diesel is out of the question, I’d love to see a 4 cylinder small truck with your newer direct injection engine.
Lastly, are we really and truly going to see an all-electric car at some point soon? As I mentioned while I was there Tesla has the Model S coming out in the next few years. If they succeed, this will bring some potentially stiff competition to the Volt.
But in summary, it was a pleasure to meet with everyone at GM. The level of professionalism was amazing and I could tell that you have an immense amount of passion for cars and trucks. Thanks for letting me see this. Thanks again!
General Motors has had a huge problem honoring their warranties. Why would someone purchase a vehicle for 40+ grand knowing that GM has this reputation for not honoring their warranties? I think most rational consumers will want assurances that the warranty for any GM vehicle, including the Volt, will be honored. Would you want to fork out that amount of money to find out after the purchase and something goes wrong that you are going to have to pay for that out of your pocket as well?
Why not just demand your customers’ entire paychecks to ‘bail’ you out?
I would need only to put petrol in this vehicle once as I never drive more that 20 miles a day. Albeit, really need to have an affordable release not $40K car. Need to do what the German’s did with the VW Beetle in 1969. Mass production and low price! I’d buy the first electric car that brings the price into affordablility instead of costing a downpayment on a house.
You guys need to be here. http://consumerist.com/5335095/#
If you would pay me, I would be there all day shutting half these posts down with facts instead of off the cuff drivel with no sources. But honestly, these are the people who need to be sought after by GM.
Thanks for the tip, Rob. Err Robb? You are right, and sadly facts don’t always penetrate when some minds are already made up. Big job for us, appreciative of the help. -Robyn from GM Communications
GM is moving in the right direction with these types of media events and webchats. Great work and keep it up!
First and foremost, before leaving my comment on future GM products, I must congratulate GM for having the courage to publish the Fastlane blog. I’m sure it has not been easy to read some of the feedback given from some disgruntled individuals on this site, and I salute you for giving Joe Everybody a platform to contact you.
However, since this is a blog, I feel compelled to give my “2 cents” in a respectful way on the future product development of GM, even if some of it will be negative.
Buick
I would like to figure out in what market segment the Lacrosse is going to fit into? You will be offering a 4 cylinder (2.4L), downsized 6 cylinder (3.0L) and a bigger 6 cylinder (3.6L). The Chevrolet Malibu offers 2 of these powertrains (albeit slightly less horsepower) on the same platform for thousands less. The only differentiation between these 2 cars is the AWD option and the improved interior. If you look at the 2.4L option, the Malibu starts at almost $22,000, the Lacrosse at over $27,000. At a $5,000 difference, you will probably not convince the regular mid-size buyer to go upscale, and the luxury buyer will snub the 4 cylinder option. The 3.6L seems the most feasible model; however, with the base Cadillac CTS in this price range, why would the luxury buyer buy the Lacrosse? I guess the real question here is what is the purpose of the Buick brand? Not quite luxury, not quite entry level? What’s the potential market within this middle ground?
GMC
Is the upcoming Terrain really necessary when the Chevrolet Equinox and Cadillac SRX, which share the same platform, basically fill up the needs of every customer from entry level to luxury? I also read that Buick will get this platform as well. I ask you, what is the purpose of having the same platform between 4 divisions? I read another Fastlane blog where Mr. Fritz Henderson stated that badge engineering will be a thing of the past in the New GM; however, the GMC Terrain shows quite the opposite. The other question, like Buick, is what is the purpose of GMC? Chevrolet makes the same cars and trucks on the same platforms, why another iteration?
Volt
I read some of the comments above and agree with some of the posters that GM should have an all-electric city EV. GM was already well ahead of the competition with the EV1, you can take the lead on a future market segment. The Volt, if GM delivers on promises made, does show promise; however, there are 2 questions very much in the air:
-At $40,000, the only potential market you will get are ecologists with high budgets. In other words, the Gen1 Prius buyers. At the point of the Volt release, Toyota will be offering a Prius plug-in for a lot less. Again, what is the potential market?
-The one question that is still up in the air is when the Volt is burning gasoline beyond the 40 mile range, how does the car perform, for example, on steep uphills? Every interview I’ve read where that question has been asked, there has not been any detailed reply on GM’s end.
Not all of my comments are meant to be negative, I believe GM has produced fantastic cars lately, like the Malibu, G8, CTS, Corvette, Equinox, etc… However, I’m still puzzled by the strategy taken on some of the upcoming models as mentioned above.
Thank you,
Where can I learn more about the technology used in the batteries in the Volt and the company (or companies) that produce them?
If we had a way of storing energy, couldn’t we take advantage of excess power generated and available on the grid…say at night… store it in batteries and then use it later? People could in essence store up the energy they would need to use the next day in their cars and homes at times when it was readily available. (We could entice them to use it at non-peak times by making it cheaper.) This would smooth out the demands on the grid and I would think might reduce overall energy requirements. I have heard we throw away a lot of energy in our current system designed for peak time usage.
What are the barriers to this type of use of the battery or whatever is being used to store energy in these new cars?
I am not an engineer. So, I would need an explanation that did not require a scientific degree. Where can I find out about the companies that are working on the issues of how to efficiently store energy for what is basically consumer use.
Thanks