Webchat: Buick and GMC with Susan Docherty.
Please join Susan Docherty, General Manager, Buick GMC, at 12:30 p.m. Eastern Time on Monday, August 31, 2009 for a one-hour live chat to discuss GM’s plans for Buick and GMC as two of its core brands. Susan will take your questions regarding the renaissance of Buick, the launch of the 2010 Buick LaCrosse, and the new GMC Terrain, arriving this fall. Looking forward to hearing from you. - Dayna Hart, Group Manager, Buick GMC Communications
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Can someone please explain why you have both GMC and Chevy trucks and SUVs competing against each other?
I know you, the executive committee, and your consultants must think there is a sound reason, but to us ordinary people it’s not very obvious.
On August 28, 2009 at 4:29 pm Jake Burnside said:
Can someone please explain why you have both GMC and Chevy trucks and SUVs competing against each other?
I know you, the executive committee, and your consultants must think there is a sound reason, but to us ordinary people it’s not very obvious.
Jake: Probably for the same reason Toyota and Lexus have SUV’s that focus on different market segments and provide high profits to Toyota, something Toyota will expand upon when they broaden the Subaru lineup where they will copy GM successful strategy of offering Chevrolet, GMC and Cadillac Crossovers and SUV’s to three different segments. There are more than two market segments (volume and luxury) in the automotive market – something only market experts like Toyota seem to understand. GM has understood this when it comes to Trucks and SUV’s and is why GM has made most of their profits with this strategy. GMC provides GM with high profit margins and is why Toyota will copy GM with Toyota, Subaru and Lexus what GM has done with Chevy, GMC and Cadillac.
GM will also use this strategy in the car segement with Chevy, Buick and Cadillac with limited Buick offerings in the Crossover market where GM has found success with the Buick Enclave sharing the showroom with the GMC Acadia and both still selling well. GMC trucks are also popular with Buick owners and since they are in the same dealership result in expanded truck sales for GM, since it has been documented that few GMC owners will buy a Chevy truck contrary to what most “experts” believe. Potential GMC buyers will buy a Ford or Toyota over a Chevy if GMC was not offered, this is something I has seen myself and have be told directly by owners of GMC vehicles in the lucrative California market where GMC trucks sell very well. There is much to be said for the strong Buick-GMC dealer strategy GM has built up over the last few years and will be the critical provider of cash flow to GM.
Hope that clarifies why GMC is very important to GM’s bottomline.
I guess things haven’t changed. When I was in high school I asked my Dad why GM sold both Chevy and GMC trucks. His answer was they did it so Buick, Olds, Pontiac, and Cadillac dealers could have a truck to sell since someone who bought a Buick was not likely to want a Chevy truck.
Hi Susan,
Wondering if the next full-sized Buick (Lucerne replacement) will parallel the introduction of Cadillac’s new XTS. Will they both share the same platform as today’s DTS and Lucerne do? I own a Lucerne Super and I’ll test drive the new Lacrosse with my salesman when it’s available, but I’m pretty sure the Lacrosse will be too small for me. A new Roadmaster (or Electra 225) would be ideal; hint, hint. Thanks.
I don’t know if I’ll be able to participate while the chat takes place live. So here are several questions which I hope will spur discussion:
1. Even though GM has yet to admit it, evidently “Regal” will be the name for the new U.S. Buick based on the Opel Insignia. (Just like they already are calling it Buick Regal in China.) Susan has stated that future Buick names will be a mix of heritage and new. So what other heritage names are being considered? I prefer Wildcat, Invicta, Riviera, Electra (similar to Chevy’s Volt and Opel’s Ampera), and even Estate Wagon.
2. So much was made of Buick’s design renaissance as shown on the beautiful new LaCrosse. Will the future small Buicks and Buicks based on Opels (ex: the NG Astra) have actual Buick styling (namely, a sweepspear and portholes like LaCrosse) or will they merely be an Opel body with a Buick grille?
3. If GM is truly committed to listening to its customers, why wasn’t the name “Invicta” used on the new Buick LaCrosse, as it was on the concept vehicle? I never read one comment in support of keeping the name “LaCrosse,” but I personally felt and saw that countless others also thought that “Invicta” should have been used.
4. If GM hopes not to lose the 3 million “free agents” who were customers of Pontiac, Saturn, Saab, and Hummer, I hope that you will quickly add a variety of models to Buick’s line-up (not all sedans, please) and make them worthy of the name Buick – not just rebadge jobs like the so-called and now cancelled “Vuick.” (By the way, a compact Buick crossover is a fine idea; it’s just that the execution as shown in that teaser photo wasn’t up to snuff).
I hope that you can tell from my questions that I’m a loyal, present, and future Buick owner.
Thank you.
“If GM is truly committed to listening to its customers, why wasn’t the name “Invicta” used on the new Buick LaCrosse…”
Christopher,
Because a British motor car company has the rights to the name Invicta and has been using it since the mid-1920’s. Though perhaps GM could buy those rights for a few million quid. But that would likely raise the price of the car to you the buyer, wouldn’t it?
That Invicta would only conflict if GM wanted to sell the Buick in the UK. Trademarks don’t automatically cross jurisdictional boundaries and what is a Chevrolet in one market may be a Toyota in another.
But wouldn’t that be rather like GM deciding to call a car a Buick Rolls-Royce or a Buick Morgan? According to what you say they could, but it would certainly never be prudent to do so.
It would be the same with Invicta.
Ian, are you aware that Buick did make Invictas from 1959 to 1963 and that didn’t cause problems! In fact there were probably more Buick Invictas produced in these five years than there were in the UK!
FYI:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_Invicta
Phil,
It appears that it took GM five years to come to its senses. If it was so successful, why do you suppose they stopped using that name?
They stopped using it because in 1962, some Invicta hardtop coupes with special trim got a name already used by Buick for it’s engines since 1959: WILDCAT.
And the following year, all Invictas except the Estate Wagon model were renamed Wildcat.
In my opinion, Wildcat was a better name than Invicta but Invicta is still a better name than LaCrosse, Lucerne or Enclave…
“Invicta is still a better name than LaCrosse, Lucerne or Enclave… “
No arguing with that. But the Invicta Motor Car Company of Great Britain might have a dog in this fight too.
Not at all. Rolls-Royce and Morgan have sold cars in the use recently, and Rolls at least still does. Invicta went out of business in the ’30s and may have never sold cars in the US. In fact Rover once sold cars n the US under the Sterling name, but that name is now used for the former Ford trucks now sold by Daimler. Toyota once used the Colorado name on the European-market LandCruiser. The Touareg name was originally used on a Peugeot concept. Matrix was first used on a Hyundai, but it is not sold in the US, so Toyota is free to use it there. Daimler is both a British brand owned by Jaguar, and the company which builds the Mercedes-Benz. As both companies have valid claims, they have come to an arrangement about who uses it how and where. While Sierra is a truck sold by GMC in the US, for many years Ford used the name in Europe and other markets for a popular compact sedan.
What’s in a name? Everything if the name is LeSabre.
The 3.6 LaCrosse may be slightly quicker than the 3800 LeSabre, but the mileage is less, it is smaller and feels less like a premium sedan.
I want to echo Christopher Popa’s 4th point. I think a compact Buick crossover is a good idea. HOWEVER, it has to be a BUICK, not a rebadged/reskinned lame attempt at transferring some other model around. You most likely have the powertrain mostly done, just send it back to Design and get a real knockout exterior and interior for it. New designs, no old Vue headlights and tail lamps. Then get the suspension and drivetrain tuned for a Buick market, quiet and smooth.
I *really* hope that Vuick doesn’t find it’s way over to Chevy or GMC now…if it wasn’t a winner for Buick, another round of badge changes won’t make it a winner either
. I don’t know why something that looks that much like a Vue was ever brought over to Buick anyway, Fritz must not have noticed or it would have gotten the “badge engineering” slap of disaproval that the G8 got.
Looking forward to a small buick car! (preferably a coupe/sedan if it’s in the works) I hope it’s as stunning as the LaCrosse! ^_^
13:31 ~ “Susan Docherty: Frank, Ventiports or Portholes are a key design element for Buick, just like the Waterfall grill.”
What is the point of keeping something that has no function? I take it your design team puts little faith in the fundamental design concept of “form follows function?”
While I do like portholes on my ‘75 Electra, I also like Buicks that have none like my ‘67 Riviera Gran Sport and my ‘65 Wildcat (this one has side vents similar to those on the Pontiac G8, which I like better than portholes!).
I’m not a big fan of the “waterfall” grilles on the current Buicks. The are too tall!
That so-called “waterfall grill” has always been a big turn off for me. In my opinion, that particular design element offers nothing — I don’t understand its purpose and do not find it attractive.
RE: today’s chat
Why is nobody but myself concerned that the new LaCrosse
1.even in FWD weighs more than an equivalent horsepower RWD G8
2. has a much smaller trunk than 2009 LaCrosse, or even Malibu by nearly 2 cu. ft. Even the new Subaru Legacy has a larger trunk!(14.7 vs 13.3)
3. Where is “Victory Red”? Or would you consider custom painting one for me?
4. is once again a victim of GM ignoring the real enthusiasts, those that would buy the AWD version, but might simply buy something else since Buick fails to make AWD and highest hp engine available together – it doesn’t stop Cadillac from pairing 304 hp with AWD (seems same two engines in Cadillac trim put out 15-24 more hp than Buick)
New GM,
are you listening (or reading!).
Buick NEEDS RWD vehicles!
B U I C K N E E D S R W D V E H I C L E S
Hello Susan,
Thank you for taking the time to answer the questions posed by the FastLane participants. I have questions of my own on precisely the Buick and GMC brands that I asked on another FastLane blog commentary that has me puzzled as to the future of these two brands, I repeat them here:
“Buick
I would like to figure out in what market segment the Lacrosse is going to fit into? You will be offering a 4 cylinder (2.4L), downsized 6 cylinder (3.0L) and a bigger 6 cylinder (3.6L). The Chevrolet Malibu offers 2 of these powertrains (albeit slightly less horsepower) on the same platform for thousands less. The only differentiation between these 2 cars is the AWD option and the improved interior. If you look at the 2.4L option, the Malibu starts at almost $22,000, the Lacrosse at over $27,000. At a $5,000 difference, you will probably not convince the regular mid-size buyer to go upscale, and the luxury buyer will snub the 4 cylinder option. The 3.6L seems the most feasible model; however, with the base Cadillac CTS in this price range, why would the luxury buyer buy the Lacrosse? I guess the real question here is what is the purpose of the Buick brand? Not quite luxury, not quite entry level? What’s the potential market within this middle ground?”
I would like to add an additional question to the ones above: if the Lacrosse has received good feedback from the market, can you provide us with some sales figures corroborating this?
“GMC
Is the upcoming Terrain really necessary when the Chevrolet Equinox and Cadillac SRX, which share the same platform, basically fill up the needs of every customer from entry level to luxury? I also read that Buick will get this platform as well. I ask you, what is the purpose of having the same platform between 4 divisions? I read another Fastlane blog where Mr. Fritz Henderson stated that badge engineering will be a thing of the past in the New GM; however, the GMC Terrain shows quite the opposite. The other question, like Buick, is what is the purpose of GMC? Chevrolet makes the same cars and trucks on the same platforms, why another iteration?”
I realize since my last posting that the Buick variant has been eliminated, a good move in my opinion.
You wrote in the Webchat: “In terms of further differentiation between Chev vs. GMC, the best example is Equinox and Terrain, both with very different buyers, different levels of equipments where they only share a front windshield and roof.” I don’t want to sound belligerent, but this comment is disingenuous considering that the Equinox and Terrain share a common platform. The “windshield and roof” sharing comment is an understatement of what these 2 cars share.
Thank you for your consideration.
GV,
The SRX and Equinox are not on the same platform. The Malibu and LaCrosse are on two different generations of what is considered to be a similar platform but they aren’t the same platform.
Buick and GMC are a dualed franchise from what I understand and for those vehicles to have a complete lineup they need a small SUV that is either a Buick or a GMC. As far as badge engineering goes; I’m more of the opinion that the Pontiac Torrent was a badge engineered Equinox but the new Terrain goes a lot deeper than badges. If you didn’t know that the Terriain and the Equinox were on the same platform it’s not like you would know it even if you drove both vehicles back-to-back. They have completely different styling and character.
@ David,
Thank you for your reply and clarifications on the platforms. Concerning the SRX and Equinox platforms, I beg to differ on the different platforms, as they are both based on the Theta platforms, as is the GMC Terrain:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Theta_Premium
“If you didn’t know that the Terriain and the Equinox were on the same platform it’s not like you would know it even if you drove both vehicles back-to-back. They have completely different styling and character.”.
That is the same argument used during the Pontiac Grand Prix / Chevrolet Impala cars, both based on the same platform, but that had different “characters”. Buyers still preferred the Impala over the Grand Prix, and the majority of buyers knew that they were essentially the same cars. That is why GM finally scrapped the Grand Prix and kept the Impala. Car buyers are a lot more savvy than the 60’s and the 70’s, and now have a lot more information in their hands when shopping; car companies cannot pull the proverbial “rug over the eyes” of clients anymore.
The differentiation of the Lacrosse/Impala is a valid point, the Lacrosse is based on the Epsilon II platform, however the powertrains are very similar. The Malibu offers the 2.4L and 3.6L engines, for substantially less than the Lacrosse. Against which competitor models does the 2.4L Lacrosse compete against? Again, I have a hard time seeing the potential market for this car.
In my opinion, GM is still not realizing the economies of scale that the Japanese have. The business model of trying to satisfy every possible client has not, and is still not working. Look at the Lambda platform cars Traverse/Acadia/Enclave/Outlook. There was no need for a third and fourth iteration of the same platform, as evidenced by the 82 day supply of the Chevy Traverse on dealer lots currently. Is this platform not a clear example of the dreaded “badge engineering” that GM has told us it will avoid in the future?
Thank you
Look at the Lambda platform cars Traverse/Acadia/Enclave/Outlook.
Why not eliminate all the confusion about models and badge engineering, and just call it the GM Lambda 3.6 or Lambda 2.4 depending on the engine. Does anyone really care whether it has a little chrome badge or nameplate saying Traverse, Acadia, Enclave, or Outlook?
Wayde,
Probably because then people would complain about the name Lambda for any number of reasons. Just look at other blog posts… And Lambda 2.4? GM does not offer the 2.4 in any Lambda.
Also, if I had a “Lambda” by Chevy, and you had on from Buick, they are not the same vehicle. That’s like saying the Toyota Camry and Vensa (and ES350) are the same car because they are on the same platform. You might as well call is the Toyota ________ (whatever their internal name of that platform is).
…I see alot of wind milling here concerning GM and their product choices. I also see alot of sentiments expressed that are big on emotion and short on facts. 2 things I want to say. GM needs to have platforms that underpin more than 1 nameplate or more than 1 brand in order to make manufacturing less expensive…this is what Toyota does, it’s Camry platform underpins 5 or more vehicles including the Lexus ES sedans, Toyota Highlander, Camry and variants, Venza etc… the other point is that I see alot of people complaining about GM’s decision to put a 4 cylinder into Buicks…GM is finally offering more fuel efficient engines and you still complain. The purpose of this 4 cylinder is to offer this option in the US and especially in Europe and China where buyers pay much more for petrol than we do here in the US…and in those countries it is a standard practice to offer premium automobiles with advanced 4 cylinder engines. BMW and Mercedes Benz are well known to offer 4 cylinder engines in their Luxury cars outside of the US. Give it a rest and stop beating up GM when for the first time in Decades they are finally listening to customers, responding to gas prices and economic conditions and producing the best cars in their history.
Rick,
I can’t agree more.
As for emotion vs. facts…most people argue with emotion and I argue with facts, and I love those arguments because I always win.
You’re getting too emotional Tim. The fact is I just won this argument.
Sally,
Please show me where I was getting emotional. I agreed with Ricks post, and his post was pretty factual. And my previous post was also factual stating the GM doesn’t make a lambda with a 2.4L engine. And I also commented on the naming convention brought up by Wayde to a Toyota comparison that would not make sense since the 3 vehicles I named are in fact, not the same vehicle.
And you can’t win an arguement you didn’t participate in, and I didn’t see your name anywhere in this particular discussion.
It will be interesting to see what GM says that they plan to do to keep in as a large player in the game.
Here’s a question for the product strategists at GM. If rwd vehicles are being canceled because they use more fuel than fwd vehicles, why is that the actual fuel economy data suggests rwd vehicles always use less fuel than fwd vehicles. A rwd/awd Cadillac STS with the same 3.6 L DI engine as the LaCrosse not only uses less fuel (18/27 instead of 17/27), but also gets 20 more hp. When using the same engines as a Lacrosse and comparable 6-speed autos a Holden Commodore gets as good or better economy than the Accord V6 (25 v. 23.5 mpg combined under Australian testing) when the LaCrosse gets just 17/27 against the Accord’s 19/29? If fuel economy is a concern, shouldn’t you be canceling the fwd Epsilon platform and it’s larger derivatives and switching to a new generation rwd platform? It’s not just the Epsilon platform though. Every fwd vehicle which can be compared to a rwd vehicle with the same or similar engine and transmission uses more fuel, not less. A fwd Toyota with a 175 hp turbodiesel uses more fuel than the rwd Lexus with the same engine. A fwd Citroen uses more fuel than a rwd Jaguar with the same engine. A Passat with a fwd transaxle uses more fuel than an Audi A4 with a longitudinal layout. For whatever reason a modern fwd vehicle always uses more fuel than a comparable rwd model. The rwd fuel economy penalty is a myth.
What’s more under the CAFE proposals a fwd model has to meet a tougher standard than a rwd model the same size. Take a Cadillac STS v a Buick LaCrosse if the standard is 32.9 mpg—the target for the LaCrosse is 32.3 mpg, but the STS just 31.5 mpg (close to the minimum of 31.2 mpg), and yet we know the LaCrosse actually uses more fuel, not less. Or a Cadillac CTS v the slightly larger Buick Regal—31.9 mpg for the CTS, and 33.7 mpg for the Regal. Or a Mercedes C-Class, a benchmark for the Cadillac ATS, v the similar-size Chevrolet Cobalt—34.7 mpg for the Mercedes, v 37 mpg for the Cruze. As the CAFE standard increases year by year the difference diminishes, but doesn’t disappear. Even for the smallest vehicles in the A- and B-segment which have to meet the toughest requirements (more than 40 mpg) a longer wheelbase rwd platform (GM’s smallest is a 98.4″ wheelbase used for commercial vans in China) can cut that by a few tenths. Thus a fwd model is penalized twice—it is required to use less fuel, but actually uses more. You should be canceling all your fwd/awd programs and exclusively developing rwd/awd models, not the other way around.
All Buicks should be RWD!
Andrew, that’s an interesting comment. Actually I didn’t compare the fuel-consumption data on such a large variety of cars like you did. However, a couple of weeks ago, as there was intense discussion about the afterlife for the G8 as a Chevy Caprice, I also figured out, that the considerably stronger Pontiac G8 (361 HP) had a disadvantage of just 1 mpg in combined fuel-efficiency versus the Impala SS (5.3 V8). Consequently the matter of consumption also wasn’t a comprehensible reason to me, not to replace the Impala SS by this Holden-built sedan. This means, so far I could confirm your findings.
The proposed Buick crossovers are not the same size as the Equinox, Terrain and SRX. The latter are all midsize, no matter GM may try to tell you, as big as or bigger than the Edge, Highlander and RX350. The Vue and the canceled plug-in Buick are much smaller, using a shorter wheelbase, similar to the Jeep Liberty, RAV4 wagon and CR-V. The third Buick crossover and the related Opel and Chevrolet are smaller again, no bigger than the VW Tiguan, Jeep Patriot and the new Hyundai Tucson recently unveiled in Korea. These smaller models can use smaller engines and thus less fuel. They’re also based on a stretched subcompact platform which is lighter and cheaper to build than the Theta and premium crossover platforms.
AUGUST 2009 SALES
Pontiac +23.35% 29,921
Buick -51.71% 8,612
Pontiac grew its market share 23% and Buick shrunk 51%, ..and GMC shrunk 45%
hmmmmm….
dazed,
Don’t you dare bring that up. The Executive Committee has spoken. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain, as the Wizard of Oz once famously said.
Maybe this will make NEW GM reconsider rebadging the G8 into a Buick at least!
If you also put some Wildcat badges on it, you won’t even need to design portholes for it! The air vents on the G8 look like they are inspired from those of the ‘65 Buick Wildcat!
If the “executive committee” had any guts they would simply import every standalone Holden model (including sportwagons and utes) as Holdens and let the chips fall. Don’t even bother to convert to lhd. Of course history would say that after two years of that strategy the Holden brand would be retired or sold.
ChiefPontiac,
I don’t think selling RHD vehicles here is legal. Plus could you imagine the lawsuits GM would face with RHD cars? People aren’t used to having most of their car on their right side, and would probably run into things. Then being that this is the USofA, they would sue GM for producing such a car.
It doesn’t stop AM General or whatever iteration sells postal vehicles to an arm of the government. It didn’t stop Subaru from offering vehicles to people that had to supply their own vehicle to deliver mail and newspapers. If it had been illegal in the late 50’s early 60’s Mike Rahal would not have been tooling around in a RHD Lotus, giving son Bobby his first taste of speed. (neighbors back then).
But the Holden Commodore (basis of the G8) is already converted to LHD for a steady market in the Middle East as a Chevy. Export it to Europe badged as an Opel and take on BMW head to head on their own turf – or did no one pay attention when many auto mags rated the G8 as equal to the 550i ? Guess not. And to mpg; the once planned changes to the V6 G8 of 6-speed and direct injection, in a lighter (by 150-200 lbs) would have made it at least a mpg equal to the LaCrosse.
So, lets move on. GM is less than 24 hours away from possibly, possibly saying to the world, Opel is no longer for sale. To make it a successful and vibrant arm of the giant once again GM needs to (in my opinion) direct import Opel again to these shores as Opel and not as rebadged anything else. And while they are setting up (once again) a dealer network for Opel by Buick (haha, dealers already exist) lets go one step further and bring over the aforementioned Opel Commodore by Holden.
ChiefPontiac,
Remember the post office the government, and they can do whatever they want : )
I do agree though, that I like most Opel cars. And I agree that they should bring them over here. I know you stated they should sell them as Opels here, but at least they are starting to bring them here even if they are sold as Buicks. I personally am looking forward to the new Regal.
I also agree that the G8 should be kept in some form, and like you said brought to Europe to fight BMW.
I hope GM keep Opel, because I think they have a lot of good technology and design, and GM needs something in Europe.
My original post was just to say that I don’t think RHD cars are legal (maybe they are), it wasn’t to doubt your ideas about vehicles.
dazed
Thats just the US numbers , throw in China numbers where Buick is wildly popular and is THE brand to have and you see why they kept buick vs pontiac.
Perhaps then the Executive Committee should have said, “Well, by golly. Let’s sell Buicks in China and Pontiacs here.”
For the love of Pete, save the G8! There’s a reason the car generating the most interest in GM’s ebay program is the G8. Also, if you type Pontiac into Google, what is the first search it suggests? Pontiac G8 of course.
The people want it, the press loves it, yet GM refuses to move it to Chevy or Buick. Why?
Hi Suzan,
Why GM constantly refuses making nice RWD Buicks? I’d really like a RWD Buick SportWagon, Wildcat, Riviera or GS. AND I’M NOT ALONE! Most of the people asking for FWD Buicks are Cadillac fans who don’t want a Buick!
I have owned just two FWD cars in my life, a Toyota and a Buick. But I have driven many more and I hate the driving characteristics of FWD cars. I’ll never buy a FWD car again!
GM needs to make Buicks with longitudinal engines that are mainly driven by their rear wheels… (AWD is fine if it’s based on a RWD architecture…).
Not the opposite.
On September 2, 2009 at 12:00 pm dazed said:
AUGUST 2009 SALES
Pontiac +23.35% 29,921
Buick -51.71% 8,612
Pontiac grew its market share 23% and Buick shrunk 51%, ..and GMC shrunk 45%
hmmmmm….
Many of the Pontiac sales were fleet and at large discounts, when the new Buick lineup is in place Buick sales will rebound strongly and outperform Pontiac on a retail basis.
GMC trucks sold as well as Chevy trucks with the exception of strong Equinox sales to a just released to the market Terrain which should sell in line with past GMC products in relation to Chevrolet.
The Pontiac lineup is getting long in tooth (except for the G8) and would have required large cash investments to produce more fleet sales or low volume niche sales (Solstice), until GM can give Pontiac a proper performance lineup that lives up to the brand heritage it is best left on the sidelines.
Please build another fast buick, please, I loved the GN’s, the GNx’s and the Regal GS’s of the late 90s. SLP even built a cool GSX car which I own, build us another boosted Buick.
GM are you listening? You boast you are listening… Pontiac outsells Buick 4 to 1 in August.
I sold Pontiac and Buick side by side for 20 years, Pontiac outsold Buick 4 to 1 every month of those 20 years. ……Nothing new, right GM? Are you listening?
“Buick will rebound strongly and out perform Pontiac on a retail basis”
Well isn’t that going out on a limb since GM picked the wrong division to scrap and not produce the division that sold 400,000 units per year but instead produce the division that might sell 100,000.
Like the one person wrote. ” If the Chinese like Buick, sell Buick’s to them. American GM buyers prefer Pontiac 4 to 1 over Buick
But I keep forgetting.. GM is listening… right.
Hi Mark,
I don’t think you’ll get any disagreement that GM sold way more Pontiacs than Buicks. However, I’m willing to bet that even though more Pontiacs were sold, GM still made more money off of Buick.
In the New GM, if it doesn’t make money, it’s not going to survive. The only caveat may be with the Volt, I’ve read things from they’ll lose money on every one, to they’ll just barely break even.
Anyway, my point is, it’s better to sell 100k Buicks at a Profit than half a million Pontiacs and just break even.
So Dave, Your willing to bet. So in other words you don’t know. You don’t have a clue. And yet you claim GM lost money on Pontiac and made money on Buick. If you go by sticker of each brand and figure each brand has the same percentage mark up, then your argument holds water because Buicks cost much more on average than Pontiac. But because of the volume of cars sold, Pontiac made more money by far. Go ask a dealer who sells both brands and ask him in raw numbers which brand he would rather sell. Pontiac sells 4 times the number of cars, The dealer gets 4 sales, 4 chances to finance the cars, 4 chances to sell a warranty, 4 chances to service the car throughout it’s life, 4 chances to sell that customer another car 4 chances for the state to collect sales tax, AND in light of the fact that Pontiac customers’ average age is 40 and the Buick customer average age is 65. Over a customers’ lifetime sell him/her more cars . . That’s to every 1 Buick. ..Not to mention the fact that Buick customers being older tend to pay cash for their car, something most customers simply cannot do regardless of make, model, or year. Dealers, while grateful for the sale, absolutly hate cash deals. Most people who buy highline autos like Cadillac and BMW, lease, so no real consistant comparisan there. There is also no argument on rebates because you don’t know in reality how much is allowed, ie: if it is an advertised rebate or backend rebate. And don’t go by the rebates on Pontiac now because they’re firesale and not a good comparisan.
So don’t try to pretend that you know who lost money and who made money. It boils down to GM wants to sell the Chinese Buicks. Then build Buicks in China and import them here. Step right up and see the Buick Invicta. As far as America is concerned GM screwed up big time on this deal because they just threw away an entire market segment. But apparently GM is more concerned with China
As Bunkie Knudsen once said, “You can sell a old man a young man’s car but you can’t sell a young man an old man’s car”. ..Once again GM are you listening?… If not to us at least to a real car guy and former president of Pontiac, Chevrolet and GM itself, Knudsen as was his father Bill Knudsen president of Buick and then GM.
Maybe the overall strategy, in light of (finally) losing the chicklet is to reduce the size of GM to the point they can simply change its name to Chevy and then Cadillac and Buickj will become small parts of Chevy – shades of Cimarron…Cadillac by Chevy.
On badging: ever notice that hardly a vehicle has any designation on its side as to what it is? What’s the reason, other than economics, for only badging front and back (and sometimes only back) Since so many new cars look almost the same form the side some identification would be in order.
gosh, i haven’t seen 1 blog entry by Susan D. thx for listening GM.
i havent bought a buick since 1982. couldnt get warranty to fix the car. went back to special order, which i would paid for, a white 87 gran national. buick said no. well, i have said no to buick since 1987. i am still looking for a PERFORMANCE car from buick and not a chevy.
tell me how much money did gm lose from me and others because gm doesnt listen to their customers on what they want??? and they went to other brands like me!!!
how about every unhappy customer is a dollar, we add them up, and we deduct it from from your paycheck, would that make you listen to the buick customer???
anwser; if we follow gm history, it wouldnt bother any gm exec at all.
I was only 10 years old when GM made the last interesting Buick (I was born in 1977 so guess what it is!). The first car I got in 1992 when I was 15 was a 24 years old ‘68 Wildcat Custom (after looking at a Regal turbo, a ‘76 Electra Limited, a ‘75 Park Avenue and a ‘65 Wildcat Custom but no cars from other brands!). I got only Buick cars until I got a FWD Buick that I hated. Since then I buy RWD vehicles from other manufacturers!
As I understand it GM was planning to keep the G8 and perhaps Solstice and cut all the other Pontiac products (G6, G5, Torrent and Vibe). They were already developing a new Buick compact for China, the new Regal was already done, the Torrent was being replaced by the GMC Terrain etc. But the word came down from on high, “NO, if you want government support, you have to cut Pontiac as well.” They were given an ultimatum. Never mind sales, never mind consumer loyalty and support, never mind that the G8 could have gotten upgraded engines and transmissions to make it the most fuel-efficient 6-cylinder midsize sedan in the world (possibly better than 30 mpg hwy). It’s one thing to say they should keep Pontiac going, certainly they should, with the Solstice and G8 and eventually a stripped down version of the rwd compact, but it’s not GM’s decision (even though more than a few people are secretly happy to see the knife stuck in Pontiac’s back and may have influenced the task force’s decision), and not an option they have open to them. They can’t now having accepted the government loans say, “We know you said we had to close Pontiac, but we’re going to keep it going after all.” The best you can hope for now is for someone to offer to buy Pontiac and the Wilmington plant and restart production of the G8 and Solstice.
If Buicks were RWD they might cut into Cadillac sales.
At GM, both old and new, there are 2 sacred cows: Cadillac and Corvette.
Buick once pummeled a sacred cow with the ‘86-’87 Grand National.
As Susan stated, New GM has no plans to rebadge the G8 as a Buick.
Since Cadillac will retain some FWD models, it makes sense in the twisted world of GM logic that there can’t be a RWD Buick. It is funny that even after Oldsmobile and now Pontiac GM still hasn’t figured out that not every customer cross-shops the entire GM product line vs. by makes with similar content.
Sure, we can agree that not every Buick has to be RWD, but why can’t even 1 be RWD?
Why is the LaCrosse less fuel efficient than the old 3800 LeSabre?
Once again, GM says they are listening but in reality they are TELLING us what we will drive.
Too bad the market is bigger and more diverse than ever before.
What’s in a name… or a brand?
Hey LeNeve…at least I can pronounce CAMARO! Your credibility evaporated when you said it wrong.
Are there any actual Buick fans at Buick?
Sure the Grand National is Susan’s favorite, why wouldn’t it be? I’d bet she has no memory or ever experienced anything else. Understand that the GN, especially ‘86-’87, were built after the chassis was cancelled for the sub-par GM-10 platform, aka W-body. It was an example of what good engineers can do with an average chassis. How about coming up with something more obscure to show your knowledge of Buick history? I suspect that Buick/GMC is a stepping stone, not a passion.
Am I the only one that notes the lack of passion GM Execs have for their own products?
I fully agree with you. As you said, not everyone will cross shop the entire GM product line. I like just one GM brand, it’s Buick. If GM isn’t able to sell a RWD Buick that I like, I won’t get myself a Cadillac (as someone suggested to me a few years ago when I called 1-800-4-A-BUICK), I’ll look elsewhere…
And I’ve already looked elsewhere, I currently drive a Jeep and two Toyota pickup trucks…
Well, I see progress coming, I have never understood by the new Lacrosse had a diffent name in Canada. Now bring the the Chinese Park Avenue to NA.
I understood… But I didn’t like the Allure much. it should have been renamed INVICTA for every markets! But since I don’t like the car much, I don’t really care. Maybe GM is keeping the Invicta name for a planned future good product like a sporty compact RWD Buick?
Hmm, maybe in our dreams only…
I REALLY want GM to succeed
But Buick is not going to work in the US.
There is no desirability associated with the Buick Brand in the US..no HALO product.. Just brown cars with lots of thick chrome.
The recent YouTube video from GM ‘What Makes a Buick a Buick’ continues to talk about “Jazz music” and “swoopy lines”. This doesn’t appeal to anyone under 50.
There is no ‘edge’ in Buick in North America – no reason to really desire this brand.
The new LaCrosse is a good car but it looks overly ornamented and heavy – it lacks edge. Still looks like an older person’s car.
Please do not use this car as an example that Buick has moved on – it is still a frumpy old persons car.
I can’t see GM turning the Buick ship around – There are way too many set ideas about Buick.. and I see no reason to believe Buick in USA is even trying to move in the right direction.
prove me wrong.. long live GM
As deep a hole as GM is in, how can you justify taking a three-day weekend? It seems like the engineers, planners, finance people, and marketeers should be working 24/7/365 (donating time if necessary) to dig yourself out.
“…and is why Toyota will copy GM with Toyota, Subaru and Lexus…”
SierraGS, just for the records: As it appears you have mixed up anything. To my knowledge Subaru is no brand or other subsidiary of Toyota, but belongs to Fuji Heavy Industries. I guess, you rather wanted to say “Scion” or “Daihatsu”.
Dear Mrs. Docherty,
what about introducing the Holden Caprice as Buick for the USA, as already offered by GM China? I am quite confident, this model would resonate well with customers as replacement for the Lucerne, regardless which name you would give to this vehicle later.
FYI:
http://www.buick.com.cn/ParkAvenue/index.aspx
At least, this would make some sense. Still a bit too conservative for the the North American market in my opinion but it’s better than any of the current Buicks available here.
Buick needs a G8 based car with more agressive lines and less unnecessary features (and a more realistic price).
And if GM does decide to keep Opel, as I suggested above, why not import the former G8 as an Opel, with a sales stopover in Europe. We’ll even take the Vauxhall version, converted to LHD, of course.
Hi…I’m Derek and I’m a Buickaholic. I currently own 10 Buicks from a 1929 McLaughlin-Buick to a 2006 Rainier. I won’t state my age for the record, but I do have a long way to go before freedom 55. Here are a few of my thoughts.
First of all, there ought to be some provenance for the people making comments. For all I know, you all (except Phil…I know him from the BCA site) could be Toyota lovers hoping to send GM to the abyss (I know that isn’t true, but just because they allow us to post thoughts here doesn’t mean that they should listen to all of us).
Congratulations to GM for outselling the competition in Canada in August.
Now, I like Buicks and I collect Buicks. I think the Buick Club of America and Buick Heritage Alliance are great for keeping the heritage of the brand alive. With that in mind, what are future collectors going to be able to collect? I know that isn’t really GM’s concern, but perhaps thinking about that might lead to some interesting designs. There really isn’t much since the ‘99 Riviera.
Speaking of the last generation Riv, think about it…the design is 15 years old, but if you see one on the streets today, it looks very modern. With the SC 3800, it has pretty impressive performance and gets good fuel economy for a car the size it is.
As my family moves forward, there is now a teenager in the house. I would like to relegate my 2005 GMC K2500 to hauling / towing duties only…it is a bit of a pain in the city the size that it is. I’m thinking of using the Rainier as my primary vehicle and getting something for my wife as she drives more regularly than I do. As the kids grow and want to drive themselves, we’ll need to have the “family” car less. We’ve already moved away from minivans and we’d like to consider something that perhaps isn’t as practical as a 4 door sedan. Fuel economy is a concern, but Buick’s history tells us that Buick has offered performance. Remember the 1936 Century, so named because it purportedly could hit 100 mph? In the ’60s, the Invicta, and later the Wildcat, was referred to as the “banker’s hot rod” putting the bigger engine in the lighter body. Of course there’s also the compound carburetion of the ‘41 Buick and the dual quad 425. The turbo v6 followed the tradition of the 455 Stage I, one of the most venerable engines produced…not to mention quickest cars of the day. Um, so I don’t know Pontiac history as well…I know there were impressive performance cars, but when exactly did Buick get boring? Perhaps when the GN had run its course? Mind you the Reatta and last generation Riv were interesting.
I guess all that is to say that I would be interested in a performance oriented 2 door. All, and I mean ALL the competition produces 2 doors, heck, even convertibles. Chev and Cadillac both have 2 doors. If Buick is to fill a niche as a premium car somewhere between entry level and luxury, isn’t it possible some of the clientele for premium cars may want a 2 door? Remember how Riviera started? As a personal luxury coupe. With the shrinking family sizes of today, not everyone needs nor wants a four door sedan. I’m not in the market immediately, but within a couple of years I’d like to see something.
Being from Winnipeg, I’d love to hear more about Susan tearing around MB in a turbo v6
There’s a lot more I can say, but ultimately, so long as we are being heard, AND we look back on the entire history of Buick (not just the last 20 years) to look to the future, perhaps there is hope for those of us who want to drive new Buicks.
Hi Derek!
I just want to tell you that I also own two small Toyota pickups that I also really like!
But I have no intention to send GM to the abyss! I’d like to help saving Buick from the Abyss but that seems like a tough job!
I’d really like if Buick would sell anything a bit more exciting than the current cars. I’d also like some 2 doors but I’d be happy if I could get at least a RWD sedan…
I talked to a friend of mine yesterday, he’s 37 and he likes the design of the new Allure (I mean LaCrosse?!). He told me he’d buy one if it was RWD.
Here are 3 two door RWD Buicks that are among my favourite models!
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3434/3918727275_41e50eb6dd_b.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2636/3918727205_b080ba320d_b.jpg
And 3 Buick owners under 50 (or should I say under 42!) and we had our Buicks for quite a few years already! I got my ‘67 when I was 23 to replace my ‘68 Wildcat!
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2467/3918793391_ae3c946d78_b.jpg