May the Best Car Win, in Action
By Bob Lutz
GM Vice Chairman
Last month, during a discussion with journalists about our “May the Best Car Win” marketing campaign, I was trying to get across just exactly what that theme means. And what it means is, of course, just what it says.
We have a lineup of vehicles that we think, if given a chance, can stack up with the best the rest of the automotive manufacturing world has to offer. One of the examples I cited was the Cadillac CTS-V, and I went so far as to challenge the journalists to find a stock production sedan on the planet that could outperform the CTS-V on the track. I proposed a track duel, “run what ya brung,” at a time and place to be determined.
Well, that time and place has been determined. The guys at Jalopnik.com were the first ones to respond to the challenge, quickly and most enthusiastically, but I suspect there will be more. We’ll be having a full racetrack challenge October 29 at the Monticello Motor Club in Monticello, N.Y., not far from the New York City area.
And I put the challenge out to you. If you own a car comparable to the Cadillac CTS-V (a 4-door production stock sport sedan) and you want to match up against me and the Cadillac, you can join us at Monticello. Follow the link to fill out an application. From the list of applicants we’ll select several challengers to join us for the V-Series Challenge.
As I said in the previous chat, we’re going to take away every last excuse people have not to consider our products. We know that some consumers still think Cadillac cars do not have the top-end performance they believe the German luxury cars have. The development objective of the 556-hp Cadillac CTS- V was to create the world’s best high-performance sedan. In final testing, the car lapped the legendary Nurburgring in 7:59.32, fastest ever for a production sedan (recently eclipsed, reportedly, by Porsche Panamera). In other words, we believe we have achieved our goal of building the world’s fastest sedan, but I look forward to putting that theory to the test … and may the best car win.
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while this is an excellent promotion, Lutz misses the biggest dig against Cadillac and that is not based on performance
Cadillac has for the longest time been considered a 100,000 mile car and they have yet to make inroads against that image
they need to be the first with a 200,000 mile warranty if they want to reclaim the first Cadillac legacy, that of quality
second of all
Lutz is a global warming denier and while he might actually believe the oil industry’s propaganda denying the activity he missed a HUGE marketing concept
better emission, alternative and ultra high tech greener cars is an industry unto itself and Lutz missed the market
gm actually sold the battery for electric cars to the oil industry, (a sale which SHOULD have violated anti trust laws
Lutz is responsible for the fall of gm but I see he does understand the problems facing them and is able to make changes that address those problems
let’s hope his personal politics does not get in the way of further development and marketing that might save the company
@perris: Pray tell, what cars are actually considered 200,000 mile cars? What the hell are you talking about? Porsche offers a 4-year, 50K mile warranty. Cadillac offers 5-year, 100K mile warranty.
Personal politics aside, Lutz is a smart man. He knows a good product and how to sell it. If it wasn’t for him, fantastic cars like the Pontiac Solstice (the Kappa platform) would’ve never made production. Pretty sure the tech-heavy & green Chevy Volt and/or Cruze were his babies, too.
He’s a good marketer, and I’m really surprised with GM’s recent ads. The new commercials touting GM’s fuel-efficient cars had me saying, “Wow.” That an SUV can match an automatic-transmission Mini on miles per gallon is impressive indeed.
I’m not right-wing nut, but it sounds to me like you, perris, are buying lefty propaganda about electric cars. The EV1 was not killed by any one person, and it wasn’t a feasible mass-market vehicle. Battery technology wasn’t up to snuff, and its 90-mile range was ridiculously optimistic, especially in winter. Turn on headlights, defroster, and heat, and the range drops to 10 miles. Not to mention its price tag, and the fact that it’s a 2-seater. It was a nice exercise, but not a reality. If you think “the oil companies” have something to gain by hoarding battery technology, your head is not firmly planted in reality, or a real understanding of how economies work.
Anyway, this face-off is exciting, and I’d like to see how the Caddy fares against the other big sport sedan guys. Jalopnik was going to race a Mercedes C63 AMG, but Mercedes wasn’t so keen on the idea — perhaps because it wouldn’t win enough to justify the major price premium over the CTS-V.
The question I have is: will all the cars be racing on showroom tires, or will they swap on the same rubber to make it more an apples-to-apples race?
Turn on headlights, defroster, and heat, and the range drops to 10 miles.
Is there any evidence yet that also won’t happen with the Volt? GM has been pretty tight-lipped so far about the exact range on a charged battery when all the power equipment is turned on. About all they’ve been willing to say is, “Up to 40 miles.” but that “up to…” gives them a lot of wiggle room.
@Rory Mclintock: That’s a good strike against the Volt’s fuel mileage claims.
However, the Volt is still infinitely more usable than the EV-1. When the EV-1 runs out of go-juice, you’re screwed. At least the Volt can keep going, albeit on gas.
However, the Volt is still infinitely more usable than the EV-1
Totally agree. However, I would like GM to be honest about the realistic range of the Volt and stop this “…up to 40 miles.” hype. I’m sure that going 40 miles on a single charge is only under ideal conditions – something which few drivers will ever see.
pray tell, what cars are considered 200,000 mile cars?
you can’t be serious
no, I am not talking about warantees, I am talking about practical longevity
the very reason a company might NEED to post “100,000 mile warantee” when other companies don’t need to is BECAUSE it has a bad repuation
every single foreign car has repuations for being reliable to 300,000 miles, cadilac has a reputation for being worthless before they reach the 100,000 mile milestone…then nobody wants to buy one after that because they simply have a reputation for not holding up
low resale follows
don’t get the wrong idea, I happen to be a long standing gm customer and thik the auto matches the inports’
now putting the companies word behind their product like I suggested will help it reclaim the mantel of a well built long lasting investment
they have a lot of work catching up to the imports who already enjoy that reputation, to do it they are going to have to add to their warantee as I suggested
I my friend own a 200,000 mi car. And yes it is a GM vehichel, a 1989 Oldsmobile Toronado Trofeo. I bought it in 2003 with 100,000 miles on it and now I have exactly 210,000 miles on her,now take that you nae sayers.
I disagree strongly that Lutz has hurt GM; in fact, I was closely involved in product development at GM before and after Lutz came back. His insistence on quality, performance, and product appeal were missing before he came, and all have improved at least in part due to his vision and leadership. I would also argue that once he recognized the public fascination with hybrid and alternative propulsion cars, he argued successfully that GM should develop them seriously even though the purely economic business case was weak to negative. That would never happen at the old GM or with a less persuasive advocate.
No, maximum Bob does not walk on water. But he does walk his talk, and presses forcefully for products of quality that evoke passion in GM’s development staff and custommer base.
“better emission, alternative and ultra high tech greener cars”
BOOOOOOOOOOOORING
Bob is right on, on global warning, think about it what caused the end of the ice age. And what melted the glaciers that created or left behind the Grand Canyon, All you greenies should get a life.
And I sincerly hope that all you nameless people don’t work for GM. Because if you do you need a real atitude adjustment and you better start looking for ways to add value to your jobs and GM.
Fred B Mendoza, LDT, Body Shop, QC team leader
If it takes an extra $60,000 to buy a sedan that runs faster then the CTS-V, as the Panamera S in all it’s stylistically disasterous proportions claims to do, then I’d say mission accomplished.
Bravo for putting on this contest Mr. Lutz. I’m looking forward to the stories and the results–burn some rubber for me!
Oh, one question Mr. Lutz–it *IS* you who is going to be racing the car right? I understood that to be the original challenge. You were a racer and have a MiG, so I figure you should be up for it!
Best,
Nick
Go Bob Go!!! We’re rooting for you!!!!
When I graduated college I ordered a new Vette. When it wasn’t in the shop for repairs it would haul rump. However, the factory paint job was so thin, the fiberglass matting could actually be seen through the paint. Metalurgy of the engine parts was very bad. The cam shaft’s lobes “smeared” at 20K miles. The piston rods failed at 40K miles. Then the entire brake system failed. The list could go on but you get the idea. Of course, GM refused to stand behind those defects. I learned high performance doesn’t matter if the car isn’t suffiiciently reliable to be driven across town.
No disrespect intended but Caddies are Porshe wannabees. If I want a Porshe, that is exactly what I would buy – not a wannabee.
Gm needs to set the styles and the reliability standards. Trailing the competitors in those two catagories and trying to compensate by excelling in performance won’t “get it”. Believe me, I can tell you first hand, a high performance lemon is still a lemon.
What year was that?
It was a ‘76. If you want a more recent example, my son got a Camero shortly before they were discontinued (can’t remember the exact year). It wasn’t as bad as my Vette but it did start falling apart prematurely. The 3 Chevys I’ve owned since the Vette weren’t as bad either but they still gave me a lot of grief. Their handling and performance was awful in addition to their unreliability. Given my personal experience, I’m not convinced GM has a genuine concern for quality. They seem to have the childish attitude “let’s not do it and just say we did”. I followed Mr Lutz’s advice to go look at the fit & finish of the new models at the local dealership. It is better than it was several years ago but it is still far behind what the competition has to offer. The substandard fit & finish, which is readily seen, makes me wonder how many shortcuts were taken on the stuff under the hood that can’t be seen. Before I ever buy another GM product, GM will have to PROVE they are decent and I will no longer be the guinea pig that provides the proof / repudiation. Some of you claim all your GM stuff has been absolutely perfect. That’s great. However the problems others of us have had indicates GM has ongoing troubles with consistently maintaining quality and it doesn’t take a nuclear pyschologist to figure out that is why GM has lost market share. I am not trolling and I’m not trying to hurt anyone’s feelings. I’m simply trying to get the message through to GM that they need to get their stuff together if they want to survive. I don’t think they realize what a hard sell it will be to recover us old fans who they ticked off with their past arrogance and contempt. If I didn’t want them to succeed, I wouldn’t be trying to get the message to them.
Randall H, first off, it’s folly to attempt to determine reliability and durability of GM’s entire product line based on personal experience with an extremely small sample size. Your sample size seems to be two cars, a 76 Corvette you personally owned and a 2002ish Camaro that your son owned. Just as you can’t predict an election with a poll of 5 or 50 people, to determine reliablity you’ve got to look at a real survey with a large enough sample size like the ones JD Power conducts. GM has done extremely well in the JD Power surveys.
That said, if you prefer personal experience, I’ve got a 99 Camaro with 141,000 miles that as been fantastically reliable as the counterpoint to your son’s supposedly “falling appart” Camaro. I suspect you couldn’t tell us with any precision how he maintained it, or what exactly constitutes “falling apart”. This is the problem with personal anecdotes. National surveys of a large number of owners are the better way to determine reliablity, because they can account for these problems of memory and the difference between something that’s a real problem (like an oiling failure at 20,000 miles) and something that’s normal with any car (brakes needing replacement)
Yes, I know about statistics and probability. I’m a licensed and degreed engineer.I’ve NEVER been given an opportunity to participate in a JD Powers survey so I’m not too sure their sampling base is adequate. I know I’ve been had by GM and I don’t need JD Powers to tell me otherwise. Only a fool keeps buying from a company that continues to shaft him. The awards GM has gotten recently are for Initial quality. That means they were great up until the time they rolled out of the showroom and that is a meaningless award.
When I said the brakes failed, I wasn’t talking about routine maintenance parts. The whole brake system failed. Even the calipers were leaking
By “falling apart” I mean the differential had to be rebuilt, the interior door panels became loose and floppy, the dome light completely fell out, instuments failed, etc. Mainteneance wasn’t an issue – the problems started after only a year.
Your Camero is perfect. Great. That only proves what I was saying. GM’s quality (or lack thereof) is hit-and-miss. Some people get the lemons, some people get the cherries.
I’m not seeing GM getting much better. I ask relatives, friends and neighbors how their new cars and trucks are working out. The ones with GM stuff aren’t having very good luck. When they take their car or truck in for warranty service for something such a transmission that shifts roughly, they are told the condition is normal.
Like you, I had extremely low expectations and, for many years, I was content to put up with grief from GM. Now I know I shouldn’t have to deal with that sort of thing at all. I might return to GM but it will be only after they really prove they have got their act together.
Hmmm… I have a ‘73 Lotus. The fiberglass is really flimsy, and it needs a LOT of work with only 28,000 miles on the odometer. Therefore, all Lotus cars are junk and nobody should buy them. Actually, I like the Lotus for what it is and I wouldn’t begin to judge their current line-up based on mine. Most of my cars have been GM cars, and I’ve had very few problems in the last 4 decades. Considering what I own now, my ‘92 Olds is still running very well, but my trouble-free ‘08 Saturn Aura is hugely improved by comparison, and I love my ‘09 G8. If you won’t consider a GM car because you had some problems 33 years ago, you’re just cheating yourself.
Did you not read the part about the later models I’ve owned weren’t much better? It amazes me how nobody here is willing to acknowledge GM isn’t perfect. If you keep having such low expectations, GM never will get any better.
If people judged BMW and Porsche by the reliability of the cars they built in 1976, no one would buy them.
People like to talk about how BMW is offering free maintenance during the warranty period. Well there Admiral Ackbar, it’s a TRAP! BMW does that because now you have no excuse to skip an oil change and if you do they can start building grounds to deny your warranty claim when you shave your cam lobes off.
Since you dont tell us when you graduated college its hard to tell if your experience was recent or 30+ years ago. All automakers have improved quality over the years so experiences from decades past have little relevence to today’s product.
It’s ironic you want to disallow any car more than 30 years old from consideration. In my experience, it has been that long since GM has built a production car that had decent performance and handling. Nothing they build today compares to my old ‘69 Firebird. Compared to it, the new GM cars are like piloting a big raft down a sluggish river. I really do wish GM could return to its glory days and build classy, stylish cars once again. I do suppose that the Caddies are the best performing cars that GM has to offer but I can’t see paying that much for an American car that will be a cluncker in 2 years.
Randall:
Its a shame that you are being so unreasonable. Its obvious you are determined not fo give any GM products a chance and thus discussing this with you is kind of pointless. I think everyone who cares to notice can tell that GM is getting back to designing compelling vehicles. To suggest that nothing they make today can come close to the performance or styling of a ‘69 muscle car is just wrong. You are not being realistic or objective. If Toyotas or Hondas excite than you should buy one of their products. I see nothing coming out of HOnda or Toyota or Ford that exceeds GM’s recent design work.
GM would like to pretend the last 30 hasn’t happened but ignoring it won’t make it go away. I’m not the only person they alienated with continuous contempt. Why do you think GM has continued to lose market share – not just decades ago but right up to the present? Do you really think the entire world has a perception problem and the remaining GM fans are the only ones who perceive the situation as it really is? Objectively compare the fit & finish on a GM car in a show room with one of the competition’s.
By saying you wouldn’t pay that for an “American” car, referring to the Cadillac, I can only guess that the price is acceptable to pay for a foreign car. My only question, is why? The flip side to your argument is that anything made foreign is better, which also is not true. Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, etc., all went through tough times with regard to reliability. The only difference was their “brand recognition” got them through it. Let me ask what do you think of when you hear Rolls Royce? Now let me ask what do you think of Rolls Royce with a GM transmission? You need to face the reality that the difference among American vehicles and foreign vehicles amount to the differences between Coke and Pepsi – it’s a matter of preference. If you want to harp on issues you had 30 years ago, then have at it. But know it is not as black and white as you make it out to be!
IMHO the foreign cars don’t look as shabby after a couple of years. It’s true I haven’t owned a new GM car in dacades but I HAVE driven some. As I said before, I’m not impressed with the handling or performance. I’m not bashing GM – I still refuse to buy a Ford and I hate the thought of buying an import. I would love to come back to GM but I still don’t trust them enough to drop $40K or $50K on something that is substandard and might have a worthless warranty (once burned, twice shy). I will wait a couple of years to see if GM really has cleaned up its act. If it has, I will go back to them. There is no need to bash me because I resent GM’s treatment of me and the hundreds of thousands like me. I’m willing to consider the “old” GM as dead & buried in the bankruptsy if the “new” GM will simply honor its warranty.
Randal:
You might be better informed if you actually drove some current GM products. You might also want to read 3rd party reviews. Why don’t you sample vehicles like the Lacrosse, Malibu, CTS, STS, Equinox, Enclave, Camaro, etc. before coming to this blog and telling people how bad GM products are even though you haven’t owned one in decades. Anyone saying GM vehicles are lacking in performance hasn’t sampled the CTS or Corvette or Camaro or the soon to be extinct G8. If you are a fan of performance and handling I can only assume you are not a Toyota, Hyundai or Honda fan. Their offerings certainly aren’t superior to GM products in either category.
As I keep saying, but none of you seem to understand, I HAVE driven new GM cars and pickups. In performance, handling and fit & finish GM is in dead last. They claim they are improving but they have said that before. It’s not a perception problem – it’s a quality problem. As I keep saying, if they ever do make the best car once again, I will consider buying one but not until then.
“As I keep saying, but none of you seem to understand, I HAVE driven new GM cars and pickups. In performance, handling and fit & finish GM is in dead last.
RandalH:
Its time to stop trolling. You are blatantly dishonest at this point. Don’t expect GM to improve at your behest when you are flat out distorting the truth because you of your deep seated dislike for the company. As I said, go buy a Toyota or Honda and give it a rest. If they make perfect cars in your opinion than there is no reason for you to post here ever. No one has ever said GM makes “perfect” cars. We have said that you aren’t being objective, reasonable or realistic. You are extremely biased and you are determined to disregard all the evidence that exists that disproves your premise that GM makes nothing but substandard cars. It’s 2009, time to move on from those steretypes.
“No disrespect intended but Caddies are Porshe wannabees. If I want a Porshe, that is exactly what I would buy – not a wannabee.”
I stopped paying attention to you after this “enlightened” observation.
New Rule: Before you can have a Porsche, you have to know how to spell it.
“Best” i snot always fastest, or most expensive, or simply wearing a certain badge, Bob. I will grant you that teh CTS-V (for now) holds title as fastest production sedan to lap Nurburgring. But at a price point where only a few monied souls will be able to own one, let alone keep it full of fuel, it may not come across on Main Street as the best overall family sedan. Granted, you are trying. The current CTS has to be an improvement over the first edition, just in gains in interior room alone.
You do know, however, regardless of velocity in your hands several more than a few of us feel you insummarily tossed the best overall family sedan i the trash. Of course I refer to the G8. And all of its potential versions. If a case can be made for a CTS Sport Wagon at well over $50,000 then certainly a case could have bneen made for a G8 Sport Wagon in the mid $30k’s. If a case for an AWD LaCrosse (with a wimpy little 255 hp V6, trunk smaller than a Malibu, and a rear window so small the rear view camera becomes a necessity – yes I drove one and still am not convinced it is half the car you could have built) then the case certainly could have been made for a 361hp V8 powered AWD G8, as well. So it cost too much to build it in Australia and ship it here? You just closed, what, something like 11 plamts wit htrained and skilled workers that could have duplicated the product here at home.
What killed Pontiac was not lack of saleable product since sheer numbers of units sold way outshone your current stellar brands of Cadillac and Buick. What killed Pontiac was not for lack of engineering and performance – how many srticles gave the G8 the nod over a 550i? What killed Pontiac was a lack of support and promotion from on high. After years and decades of car rags snubbing their nose at even giving cars such as the 1997-2003 Grand Prix GTP a chance to prove its superiority against Ford Taurus SHO, Chrysler 300M and all those imports in even just one comparison article, finally the magazines saw the merits in the newest and brightest Pontiac since the Solstice and what did you do? You ignored 200,000 to 300,000 plus in annual sales and threw out the baby with the bathwater. The numbers are in, and year to date the now defunct Pontiac division has outsold (in the United States) Buick and Cadillac COMBINED. 2007 and 2008 were no different as in each calendar year Pontiac outsold (USA) Buick and Cadillac combined. I am sure that even further back it remains true although the “new GM” has apparently removed that info from public perusal ( the links to historical sales from 2007 back for domestic deliveries are invalid).
Thumbs up for such a signature vehicle as the CTS-V and its superiority against the M’s and S’s of the world. You are even admittedly a bargain pricewise compared to a Quattroporte; and I’m sure it doesn’t cost $1100 to replace headlights as C/D reported for an XF – but the way I see it you have poured all of your performance eggs into one very small basket. Will the success of the CTS-V sell 100,000 CTS’s? First you have to get sustainable over 60,000. Will it sell one additional Malibu – I don’t see the cross-traffic, sorry.
BTW, can I bring a Holden Commodore HSV or Vauxhall VX/R8 to this one on one?
Dont mean to disrespect you Randal H. but there is no way that a 69 Firebird would out handle or outrun a CTS-V. Tire compounds and suspensions have come a long way since those days, let alone the fact that the new V-6 Camaro would run with a 69 Firebird in the quarter mile. I am guessing that you have not drove many performance cars lately.
I myself own a G8 GXP that is both stylish and very fast, and a very well constructed auto also. GM is building some great cars these days, however they will have to deal with the reputation that they have had in the past(late 80’s and early 90’s) when they built some real garbage.
In final testing, the car lapped the legendary Nurburgring in 7:59.32, fastest ever for a production sedan (recently eclipsed, reportedly, by Porsche Panamera). In other words, we believe we have achieved our goal of building the world’s fastest sedan, but I look forward to putting that theory to the test …
Mr. Lutz,
Respectfully, what good is that? (Other than giving you an opportunity to stroke your ego and brag when you gather with auto company execs for happy hour at the Bloomfield Hills CC.)
With the possible exception of Montana, there is no place in the U.S. where one could legally drive the CTS-V to its capabilities, and you are not going to sell enough of them to ride the back of the CTS-V back to profitability.
What you need is a true “killer app” — a car of which you can sell hundreds of thousands (or millions,) and one for which people will happily pay more than it costs you to build.
Preach Brother
In response to the “100,000 mile car” and Corvette build quality posts, my first hand experience with GM cars and trucks is the complete opposite – with regard to reliability and durability, they’ve been equal to our Japanese cars, and much better than our German cars. I don’t know when Randal H graduated from college, but I’m certain it wasn’t in the past 10 years, because the kind of problems he cites are simply unheard of in a C5 or C6 Corvette.
The reliability gap was once true, but it’s been a myth for a good long while now.
Bravo to Bob Lutz for throwing down a challenge like this and following through! The CTS-V is a gem, and I can’t wait to see how this turns out.
I wonder if bob reads these comments, if so I hope you’ve thought to contact TESLA about the Wilmington plant, the solstice has been successfully converted to all electric drive train and retains excellent performance, the kappa and tesler look like a perfect marriage
From what limited track experience I have, this is a pretty biased contest – track performance is far more driver than car. I have seen well prepped Civics and 20 year old 911’s pass Z06 Corvettes and Porsche GT3’s at Waterford Hills, and spec Miatas outrun Porsche Turbos at Grattan. So I fail to see the point of the challenge … though it would be fun to participate!
GM needs to make sure GM cars drive as well at 100,000 miles as they do when new – this is an area where the GM vehicles I have owned fall short, and some of GM’s competitors do not. And it is one of the reasons people buy non-GM vehicles.
To be honest 100k durability isn’t critical to most people. The average person keeps a car 5-6 years and you don’t cross the 100k mile barrier in that time. My experience has been that ANY old car needs parts replaced regardless of make. I’ve heard numerous times about the mythological imports that go 150k miles with nothing but oil changes but people I know have not owned such cars. Certain components of a car are not going to last much past 100k miles without failing.
Frank,
What civic on earth has completed a single 24 hour endurance race? Vette’s have held up long after Jgaur’s, Ferrari’s, and even the much vaunted Ford GT’s have all retired after breaking down in ALMS endurance race. There is not a single Civic out there that can outrun, outcorner, outbrake, outhandle a vette. Did you forget that vettes have twice the displacement? Front wheel drive cars will never truly compete against rear wheel drive.
In it’s class in ALMS series the vette competes against Ferrari 430’s and Jaguar XKR. What does Civic compete against? Wait a minute now, the civic doesn’t have anything to compete against. Even the Hyundai Genesis is moving toward rear wheel drive. Toyota discountinued the Celica GT-S and is developing a Subie all-wheel-drive rice-rocket.
100k durability is critical to me – I keep cars that long (and longer). It is also critical to resale value, and thus depreciation. We own a Lexus as well as a few GM cars, and the Lexus has (so far) had far better durability (and far less depreciation) than the GM products.
That said, I did not complain about replacing parts here or there – that’s normal. I complained about the car not driving the way it did when it was new. Our GM cars feel old, rattely, and wallowy at 80,000 miles. The Lexus still feels like a new car.
Replacing a part on a car that is still a pleasure to drive is less painful than the same replacement on a car that is no longer a pleasure to drive.
Frank:
You insult our intelligence when you tell us old cars drive and feel exactly as they did when new. I’ve been in import cars with heavy mileage and wear and tear is apparent. This is true in terms of the interior and in term of how tight the car feels. I worked for a guy who had a 6-7 year Lexus years back and it was heavily driven. The interior had deteriorated seriously due to heavy use. The car looked years older than it actually was and the seats were cracking and peeling. I’ve seen this on numerous other imports over the years. My wife had a Corolla and an interior door handle broke off, the antenna broke off and the car had noticeable vibration at idle that likely wasn’t present when the car was new.
Frank:
Saying 100k reliability is crucial to resale is questionable. No one keeps good data on repair costs of cars with more than 100k miles. Resale is based on PERCEPTION and little else. When you buy a used car you have no idea if its going to be trouble free for years or break down within months. There are no guarantees. Lexus has convinced people that its reliability is unparalleled and that helps Lexus vehicles command a premium in the used car market. The fact that your GM vehicles (it would be nice if you mentioned which ones) had lower resale value than a Lexus doesn’t prove anything with regards to reliability.
It is facinating how there seems to be a disbelief of GM people and GM die hard customers.
I will tell you sir that with my own eyes and ears I have ridden in and seen multiple examples of 7 to 10 year old Lexus and Infinity cars with well over 100k miles.
Every single one of them was quiet, not rattles no loose plastic no wind noise, all the windows and locks were original and working. I ask them if they have had any problems, only 1 person said a timing belt had broken at 8 years with 120k mile lexus.
On the flip side every single GM owner I have ridden with (including my own 97 pontiac grand am) has rattles, squeks, shutters, doors that sag starting as early as year 1.
I am not here to flame, I am here to issue a counter challenge.
Make a BUMPER TO BUMPER 100K – 7 Year WARRANTY.
You say I should not have to worry about PS steering dying at 4 years 45k…back it up warranty.
You say I should not have to worry about Drivers PW dying at 4 years 50k…back it up warranty.
You say I should not have to worry about Alternator dying at 5 years 60k…back it up warranty.
Squeeks and rattles on interior…we can work on later…I will consider it a BIG step if you just cover broken things to 100k and 7 Years.
@dale
First, AMLS has nothing to do with production cars, especially GT1 where the Corvette used to race.
Second, I bet Civics have run “LeMons” (sic) ….
But the challenge is not race cars driven by pros. It is amateurs driving street cars on a track. It’s a hobby of mine, and I have seen very fast and powerful cars passed by Civics and Miatas. At the amateur level, the difference between drivers is huge, and on a road course, it can easily make up for a far inferior car. The second most influential variable is tires, followed by suspension, brakes, and in last place, horsepower. Point being, to have a chance at ascertaining differences in cars you need the same driver and the same tires.
None of this has any meaning on the street. If you have done track driving you know that only an insane person would drive like that on a public road. And absolute track performance also has little to do with how much fun a car is to drive. That part is quality, steering feel, handling balance, and lots of other difficult-to-measure aspects.
I have briefly driven a CTS-V, by the way. It’s a great car. Its performance is incredible, and the ride vs handling balance is the best I have ever experienced in a car. But off the track, there aren’t enough points on your license to drive one at 1/2 of its capability.
So, I still don’t get the point.
@dale
Go check out the local Porsche, BMW or Lotus club (motorsportreg.com is a good place to start) and go to a “DE” day (aka track day) with whatever you currently drive – any non-truck will do. It will be cheap, fun, and eyeopening.
Frank,
Be serious. There aren’t so many older vehicles from Toyota and Honda around. There are many more older American cars and trucks still being driven around.
There are Cadillac Limos and hearses around with over million miles on them.
There are Fords and Chevy’s from the 60s and 70s that have turned their speedometers over and over.
We pretty much know that the American vehicles have higher durablity.
Another reason we know that American cars are superior is that foreign branded apologists spend an inordinate amount of time trying to justify their bad decision to buy a foreign car in the first place by blaming their decision on American automakers.
We’ve all seen many many instances of Japanese cars like Hondas/Acura and Toyota/Lexus falling apart at the shops. Who doesn’t know a tow truck driver who says they have to tow more foreign cars than domestics. Who hasn’t heard the local transmission shop that say they mostly get Hondas in the shop.
Ever heard of the Lexus electrical problems? I’ve heard Lexus owners complain right on the new car lot about them.
Someone bought a used Lexus only to have the timing belt snap. Sound familiar?
Who hasn’t heard of a Toyota owner who claimed to have oil sludge in their engine.
http://www.toyotaproblems.com/
Ever notice that there is not a typical pattern of the Mercedes, BMW, and VW owner claiming their stuff is perfect? Maybe its because owners of BMW, Mercedes, and VW vehicles are apparantly less affected by foreign car guilt syndrome and don’t have to blame their purchase on American car makers.
Even the auto media reporters at MT recently claimed that the Cadillac ATS is threat to the Lexus IS, while GM only said it was a BMW 3 fighter. MT claimed the BMW buyer wouldn’t be as easily swayed from their brand as the Lexus IS buyer. However, in spite auto media claims, a BMW buyer is may also be likely to buy the Cadillac ATS. The BMW / Mercedes buyer is looking for an American choice and wants one, but can’t quite find the model, style and size they want in an American choice. It may need to be branded as a Cadillac, Buick, or Lincoln for the BMW / Mercedes buyer to take a look.
Often GM has made a stylish car that placed in the right division, with the V-8 engine choice available, with the right marketing might otherwise appeal to the BMW/Mercedes buyer seeking a luxury nameplate.
Even now in this economy its less important for GM to be talking about a new Impala than it is to be talking about a new Buick Park Avenue Ultra or a Riviera sedan. The BMW 5 and Mercedes CLS looker is more likely to be lured to a Buick.
Chevy should focus on marketing the Malibu as its flagship even adding a Malibu SS or Chevelle coupe and GM should make a Buick sedan line-up first as a priority, then add the Impala second.
As a matter of priority right now, I would place the G8 as a Grand National in Buick rather than as a Caprice within Chevy for example. This would be more profitable for GM.
The best thing GM can do is to build the affordable luxury car model line-up at Buick. With the baby Enclave and the Enclave Buick is set on SUVs.
GM should be persistent in promoting Buick as the new class of world class targeting the taste level and styling of the BMW buyer.
Toyota makes 80% of its profit in the United States and takes it back to Japan. I see why apologists for these brands are worried. Toyota sales mostly come from from just two models. Its called pride before the fall.
Media apologists for the Camry and Accord and genuinely worried that they’ve been beaten by a superior car like the Malibu. And the Camry and Accord have been beaten. . . . All that remains is for the America car buyer to discover it.
Likewise, the Ford Taurus is a superior choice.
Francisco,
I see you are comparing the Pontiac Grand Am to Lexus. Interesting comparison. Your assertions aside, there are probably more old Grand Ams being driven than older Lexus models.
I will not dwell as long in reply to your post.
Let me just start with this…my purpose on this board is NOT to flame.
BUT I would just ONCE like to see the “gm lovers” to aknowledge they have a REAL reliability problem not just a image.
You want to post links…how is the is one, Technical service bullietins for 2002 Lexus GS 300 and 2002 Cadillac seville sts. TSBs are problems reported by customers and or manuf.
Cadillac had 4 major repair campaigns and 196 problems.
http://www.alldatadiy.com/TSB/08/020819fr.html
And note the Lexus GS300 no campaigns and 66 issues
http://www.alldatadiy.com/TSB/31/02310619.html
And note the Lexus GS300 was less expensive in those years yet has less problems.
My last purchase was 2009 Acura TSX but I did shop around with Saturn Solstice.
Previous to that was 2006 Scion Xb which I gave to my daughter for college.
The CTS-V is nice but the rear end still looks like an old person car.
Funny how they never mention that the CTS-V that ran Nuburgring was not stock production. Plus I believe it has been beaten twice by a 4 door. Once by Panamera, and also by the RS4. An RS4 that puts out 130hp less. Seems to me the Cadillac is a big behemoth that makes up for what it loses in ability to corner, handling, with a huge engine to get time back on the straights.
Monticello is a track full of long and sweeping straights, favoring a muscle car and not a true handling car. I am quite sure GM heavily researched the track to find the one that favored its characteristics, and did not favor the two to three other serious challengers out there. This is a total rig job. But a good chance to get a car on track and have some fun. Wish I was out east, I would bring my RS4 out in a second.
Mick, (to both your posts)
The choice of a track was a matter of track availability and timing…the cars are the cars, there’s no gaming going on here…the challenge is clear. And what do you mean we destroyed the car that ran the Ring?? Give me the source for that one?! As for Ringers….bring any DRB tool, objective mechanic or anyone else to evaluate that the car will be STOCK. I’ll stake a 60-day guarantee on it. Take a deep breath and enjoy the fall air…this is for fun
From Jackson Barret Website that sold the car as a scrapped title car:
http://www.barrett-jackson.com/application/onlinesubmission/lotdetails.aspx?aid=284&ln=677.2&pop=0&it=1
“This is the actual Cadillac that set the speed record on May 9, 2008 when it was driven by John Heinricy in Nurburgring, Germany. The car features a 6.2 Liter/556hp Supercharged V8 with an automatic transmission, and contains all the same features as when it set the speed record. The chassis and powertrain are 100% production intent. THIS IS A MODIFIED VEHICLE. NEITHER GM NOR BARRETT-JACKSON MAKE ANY WARRANTY OR REPRESENTATION OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, CONCERNING THE VEHICLE, INCLUDING NO WARRANTY OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. THE VEHICLE IS NOT CERTIFIED TO COMPLY WITH ANY FEDERAL, STATE OR LOCAL LAWS, RULES OR REGULATIONS AND MAY NOT BE DRIVEN ON PUBLIC ROADS. THIS VEHICLE WILL BE CONVEYED TO BUYER WITH A “SCRAP” TITLE.”
GM claiming this was a production car, an actual production car is incredulous. The car was modified, had a different tune, had different seats, a roll cage, harnesses, etc etc etc. If anyone in their right mind believes this was an actual stock car running the Nurburgring, then I have some sand to sell your camels. Interestingly when they sold it John Heinricy was there talking on Speed about the record and he called it the “rear wheel drive 4 door sedan” record. I bet if a Panamera Turbo, or an RS4, or an RS6 shows up, they will turn it away, look at the disclaimer on the website. They don’t have to let your car run. Such a load of bull. And GM wonders why people are flocking away from American cars. Tired of the double talk, smoke and mirrors, and CEO’s getting paid ridiculous amounts of money for basically running around challenging people to races. i woudl be so shocked if they actually ran a stock off the showroom floor model of the CTS-V. They are no doubt tuning it right now. Adjusting camber, putting in optimal sways, tweaking the pulleys on the supercharger, modifying the timing. What a load.
So as you indicate, we didn’t scrap the car and hide it … it’s out there to be sold! Perhaps a better understanding of the law would help you understand the issue the disclaimer is because we CANNOT sell the car for use on the road, it was a pre-saleable volume validation build which is not built within the certified production to NHTSA and EPA standards and the title is scrapped by law. Second, given your deep emotional desire to prove us wrong…you’re welcome to the challenge in a few weeks. And as I said, anyone can bring a third-party source to validate the cars. Can’t wait to see you there.
Mick, the days of press vehicles being massaged beyond factory spec went away with the change from Cannonball Runs to One Lap of America. This isn’t drive the family gomobile to Daytona and pay to do 3 laps during testing for the Rolex 24 Hours at:(which sadly will no longer have any Pontiac Crawford or Rileys competing). The “Ring” is not only a major world class F1 track it is also one of the most dangerous road courses in racing. Look up the tally. And, despite how well constructed the CTS may be GM would want their driver to be able to drive another day – just in case.(I’d insert a plug for the saftey cage ‘48 Tucker in here and its famous rollover during testing but figure it’s probably lost on you)
They took a pre-production car that was built before the CTS-V was made available to the general public. Also, this car was built before all crash tests had been completed. Stop spewing garbage from your mouth. If you think you can beat the CTS-V show up and race Maximum Boob. Yes, Bob WILL be driving a production CTS-V.
Actually the CTS-V was stock except for safety add ons. Who told you the car was modified? I’ve never heard that a stock RS4 beat the CTS-V. The M5 and M3 certainly have not.
The “ring is THE gold standard. There is no other comparsion.
51. Porsche Panamera Sport Chrono Turbo 7:56 156 ´09 500 / 1974 Walter Roehrl (AutoBild 2
52. Porsche Panamera Turbo 7:56.0 156 ´09 500 / 1870 Walter Röhrl
57. Audi RS4 (B7) 7:58 155 ´05 420 / 1720 Frank Stippler
59. Cadillac CTS-V 7:59.32 (Pre production) 155 ´09 556 / 1908 john heinricy
From “Fastestlaps.com” for the Nordschleife track setup at Nurburgring.
Whats really interesting is the company these cars are in:
53. Porsche 996 GT3 early 7:56.33 156 ´99 360 / 1350 Walter Rohl
54. Honda NSX-R 7:56.733 156 ´02 280 / 1270 Motoharu “Gan-san” Kurosa
55. Honda NSX-R 7:56.733 156 ´02 280 / 1270 Gan San Kurosawa time att
56. Lamborghini Gallardo LP560-4 7:57.46 (full lap) 155 ´08 560 / 1530 AutoBild sportscars 08/08
58. Chevrolet Corvette C6 7:59 155 ´04 400 / 1470 Motortrend
Regardless of who wins what, these are all fast cars, and really the factor here is the driver.
Mick:
the stock RS4 has not exclipsed the CTS-V at the Ring. According to Wikepedia the RS4 lapped the Ring in 8:09 and the M3 did it in 8:05. No stock production four door except the Panamera has beat the CAdillac.
It is posted with link right there. Wikipedia is not the de-facto source of accurate information. Look at the list above, look at the multiple times it is referenced on the web. Also the RS4 that ran the time above was using the same tires that the CTS-V used, R compound, i believe they were corsa’s?
I would love to come up, but I know a ringer when i see one, Also i am unfortunately in Washington state, and my car has been modified, so it would clearly not qualify. I have an aftermarket exhaust, probably adds 5 hp, right, instant DQ from GM. LOL. Also my wheels are not factory paint. Instant DQ.
If I were GM, i would first get the actual facts on the times are the ring, not be selective to the source. Next I would get some independent party on hand to ensure the cars aren’t rigged. And last, why not wait a week for the Panamera to hit our shores? Oh, my bad….
What if it rains? Instant DQ for any AWD cars? And how do you address the issue that you car has forced air and a ridiculous amount of displacement, where an M3, RS4, or M5 have much smaller engines and manage to wring the same performance out of them? I think it is an engineering failure to put a monster truck against a regular off the lot 4×4, have them both climb an 8 minute hill, monster truck finishes .2 seconds faster, and claims superiority. I can go put an LS1 motor in another chassis like the german cars, or a pontiac G5, or whatever, and get the straight line performance on a long track to make up for its cornering inadequacy.
I have seen the CTS-V at the drags at PIR, and know they run a straight line very well. trap speeds are over 112mph for the one I saw out there. but on a road course like PIR, lots of turns, and few straights, it fails to keep up.
No other sources show that a STOCK RS4 has beat the Cadillac. I read auto blogs every day and recent stories about the Panamera clearly state that its the first STOCK four door to beat the CTS-V. As I said, the RS4’s time is listed as 8:06 which makes sense considering it has far less hp than the CTS-V. That list you provided doesn’t clarify which cars are stock and which are modified. What does “b7″ mean after RS4 on that list you gave? I suspect that means it was a tuner car, not a stock car.
You say the “proof” that the CTS-V cant lap a track quickly is that you have seen it unable to keep up at a track. What cars was it trying to keep up with? How experienced was the driver? As I said, a magazine compared the CTS-V to the M5 (Road and Track I believe) and the CTS was faster on a track. You are playing around with facts to make your point because you don’t want to give credit where it’s due.
B7 is the platform generation. For example, B5 was the 2000-2002 A4, S4, RS4, B6 was 2004, 2006, B7 was 2007-2008. Not tuner.
The car was completely stock. I have the following to show it.
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/audi/35288-frank-stippler-i-drive-rs4-7-58-a.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEPpp8qr9GU
HP is not what makes your car fast on a windy road. Its handling. But regardless of that fact, look at the drag times and numbers. The stock top time in an RS4 was 12.8 109mph. Now look at the CTS-V stock best time 12.6 117mph. What you may notice is the huge disparity in the trap speeds, yet it isn’t translated in a large time gap. Thats because of AWD and the high redline of the RS4. The RS4 and M3 both top out at over 8200rpm. They can carry high levels of HP for longer. The CTS-V caps at what, 6000 rpm? that a few extra seconds before a shift, a few extra seconds at high end.
No other sources show that a STOCK RS4 has beat the Cadillac.
Who cares? (Unless you are a moonshiner running white lightning in the hills of Northern Georgia or South Carolina.)
The only people that will be able to take advantage of the CTS-V’s performance are lawbreakers ~ people that flaunt and are contemptuous of the rules that regulate the rest of civilized society.
The RS4 was not using standard tires which is why that time is not touted. The CTS-V is faster than the RS4 with OEM tires. I read the comments on the site you linked and people indicated it was on racing tires which is why Audi never claims the time as official for the RS4. The CTS-V was not using racing tires. It’s faster, period.
One of the examples I cited was the Cadillac CTS-V, and I went so far as to challenge the journalists to find a stock production sedan on the planet that could outperform the CTS-V on the track.
Considering the many laws that regulate how we drive, exactly of what use is performance? Is there anyone that can take advantage of that performance unless they drive on their own private island, or own a 10,000 acre ranch?
Better that you instead strive for first-class engineering, quality and precision in the manufacturing process, durability and reliability, ease of maintenance, length of warranty, a first-class network of dealers, etc.
Here we go again with the “who cares about the performance, you can’t really use it”. Who cares. I’m sure there are some people out there that take their car to the track (just look at Frank’s post above). Plus, if it’s such a bad idea to make performace cars, why do virtually all other car makers do it. Even holier-than-thou Tesla’s roadster goes 0-60 in like 4 seconds. Why not complain to them to make it slower and even more fuel efficient? I guess we should limit all cars to 80MPH (Texas’ highway limit) and put super slippery tires on all cars to discourage people to try to drive fast (nevermind that a high performance car is also usually a safer car in active safety).
Plus knock me all you want, but I guarantee that if I had a CTS-V I would be doing some WOT’s from stoplights from time to time.
Also, isn’t performace a trait of first class engineering and precision that you mention? I mean Formula 1 race cars have an emmense amount of engineering and precision, and they are the highest performing cars in the world. And Cadillac has one of the best warranties in the business.
Even holier-than-thou Tesla’s roadster goes 0-60 in like 4 seconds.
Tim,
There is a legitimate need for acceleration when merging and passing. There is no legitimate need for a high top-end speed when our laws so regulate and restrict how we can drive.
If I lived in Germany where I could use a CTS-V to go from Frankfurt to München in 90 minutes or so, I wouldn’t say that. But here in the U.S., there is no need except personal gratification.
Corky,
I completely agree that there is a need for acceleration. That’s why I put my line in there that said “nevermind that a high performance car is also usually a safer car in active safety”. Acceleration is one part of the active safety. Handling and braking are the others. So yes, there is a benifit to high performace cars.
Plus in your first post you say “no one will be able to take advantage of the performance” and then you reply to me saying there is a need to acceleration. So which is it?
Not really true. There is no speed limit in Montana. And who knows maybe the speed limit will rise in the future.
if it’s such a bad idea to make performance cars, why do virtually all other car makers do it
It’s an ego thing. They do it for bragging rights. Read Freud.
Who wants to race Camry’s instead of a Caddillac with a supercharged vette engine underneath the hood?
GM destroyed the CTS-V cars that ran nurburgring immediately after so they could not be analyzed. Typical GM BS. They will do the same here. There will be a custom tune, stripped weight, all kinds of crap done to make this car running appear stock but not be stock.
What woudl be good is if someone showed up with a stock CTS-V they have owned, track that. Not some ringer from the factory.
1. If don’t have any proof you shouldn’t make the statement.
2. The CTS-V has been compared to the M5 by car magazines and the CTS-V is faster around the track.
3. The CTS-V used for the run at the Ring was not enhanced for greater performance.
How about a challenge for all of your vehicles with cars in their category not just in performance but in all aspects. Things like build quality,quality of material,fit and finish,comfort and convenience,ride and handling,gas milag,braking and last but not least bumper to bumper warranty,not just power train.
When all of your vehicles comes out a winner in all of those category’s then and only then can you can truly say that GM has turned the corner. Unfortunelly there will still be people out there who will still look at GM vehicles as junk. But I bet if you can prove your vehicles to be the best you can convince a lot of people otherwise. People will not consider GM vehicles on words alone because the have it all before. This time they need proof and it’s up to you to give it to them.
Things like build quality,quality of material,fit and finish,comfort…
Good idea Felix. I’d like to see Bob pull a Cobalt at random off the line at Lordstown and then throw down the gauntlet to all comers to compare quality and the fit and finish you mentioned.
A willingness to make that challenge would indeed mean something.
I like the idea of this test. A Cobalt pulled a random off the line at Lordstown against random cars pulled from the assembly lines of the other major carmakers and judged by a neutral observer on quality of assembly and fit and finish.
A comparison test such as that would have a lot more value for American consumers than seeing how fast a CTS-V can go around a track.
That could even make a pretty good reality show. Let’s hope one of the major networks jumps on your idea Felix and Hunter.
C’mon Bob and Fritz, let’s see you throw down a challenge that would actually mean something to the average car buyer.
“How about a challenge for all of your vehicles with cars in their category not just in performance but in all aspects. Things like build quality,quality of material,fit and finish,comfort and convenience,ride and handling,gas milag,braking and last but not least bumper to bumper warranty,not just power train.”
would Toyota’s vehicles be able to emerge victorious in such a comparison test? How about Honda products? How about Nissan products? The answer is “no”. No automaker has a complete lineup of vehicles that bests the competition in every category. Don’t be absurd. And please stop complaining about GM’s warranty until Toyota or Honda or Ford best their warranty. Most non luxury automakers have 3 year/36k warranties. GM is the only one offering a 5 year/100k powertrain warranty that is transferrable. When a warranty is already better than average you don’t demand that it be improved to be competitive. We just have to accept that some people (like many posters here) have no intentions of ever buying a GM product under any circumstances. To pretend that a change in GM’s warranty policy would convince you to buy a car is silly.
…would Toyota’s vehicles be able to emerge victorious in such a comparison test? How about Honda products? How about Nissan products?
Don’t know. If we knew the answer ahead of time, there wouldn’t be any reason to do the test, would there?
Ace:
Actually I do know. The answer is “no”. Toyota’s lineup is full of mediocre vehicles. Have you ever driven a Corolla or a Scion xb? I have. In fact, I drove both within months of driving a 2008 Cobalt and I assure you the Toyotas are no better. It kills me when people demand that GM prove that all of its products are perfect in every way when other automakers wouldn’t be able to do the same in spite of their stellar reputations.
I guess that means you don’t get to be a member of the team of neutral and unbiased judges.
But it’s irrelevant anyway, the honchos at GM would never issue a throwdown challenge to have random cars pulled off their assembly lines and judged on quality of assembly and fit and finish against random cars of other automakers.
That would mean more than watching Bob Lutz go fast around a race track, but why do something that would have actual value for consumers?
“But it’s irrelevant anyway, the honchos at GM would never issue a throwdown challenge to have random cars pulled off their assembly lines and judged on quality of assembly and fit and finish against random cars of other automakers.”
Ace:
Any car you might inspect at a dealer is “random” so if you want to see how GM’s fit and finish compares go check a car at a dealer or auto show. It’s not hard to do. Your challenge idea makes little sense. Any customer can easily check out a random GM product at their leisure to see how the fit and finish matches up vs the competition. Why would GM set up a competition that allows customers to do something they can already do now?
Why would GM set up a competition that allows customers to do something they can already do now?
It isn’t obvious to you? For the publicity and attention they would get. Why do think Bob Lutz issued his CTS-V challenge?
To check all the products on the market now, I’d have to drive around to many dealers. This would be a showdown on Main Street where anyone interested would get the answer. Just think of the bragging rights the winner would get.
The only reason GM might not want to do it is a lack of confidence.
“To check all the products on the market now, I’d have to drive around to many dealers. This would be a showdown on Main Street where anyone interested would get the answer. Just think of the bragging rights the winner would get.:
Ace:
There is this thing called the auto show which allows consumers to directly compare vehicles from various manufacturers under one roof. YOu can compare build quality and panel gaps amongst hundreds of cars if you wish. GM vehicles are shown there and any consumer can see how their vehicles stack up.
There is this thing called the auto show which allows consumers to directly compare vehicles from various manufacturers under one roof.
Yes, if you live in a large metropolitan area such as New York, Chicago, or L.A. I guess for those of us stuck in places like Montana, Wyoming, the Dakotas, Alabama, Mississippi, or even Iowa, were just plain out of luck, huh? Or do you think I should be spending $500 on a round-trip ticket to Chicago plus a night or two in a fancy hotel to go to their auto show?
…match up against me and the Cadillac
Bob, I take it that means you will be driving the CTS-V? I know you are a former Marine and fighter pilot*, but you are also 77 years old. Is Fritz ready to bet so much on the aged reflexes of a septuagenarian?
_________________________
* For those who don’t know, fighter pilots are known for their skill, but are also known for their hubris.
I think the main point is that GM is ready to compete, to step up to the plate and knock a few out of the park! This challenge encompasses everything the new GM is about, winning with great cars! I am pleased. This is the attitude we need to have!
Will spectators be invited, if so can you give any info.
“There are old, and there are bold pilots; but never old and bold ones……..”
Bob
i have been a critic of your dealership closings but I think taking other brands on head to head is a great idea. Take the competion on head to head in everything from performance to fuel economy and SHOUT it out loud to everyone. That is the kind of marketing that will overcome all these negative perceptions. Realize though that some people won’t believe even if they see it with their own eye’s. Some of the negative posts here are based on emotion and not fact.
Now if you will stop this insane idea of closing dealers and let EVERYBODY get back to selling cars!
I would be driving an XLR today if I had received quality service on my 2000 Eldorado at the local,
Cedar Rapids, Iowa, Cadillac dealer. I won’t be purchasing another Cadillac product until I can be assured their Service Department has become Cadillac quality. The less than quality service by this dealer goes back to 1990.
Guys, double check before you post. There is no price gap between the CTS-V and the C63 AMG. However, the CTS-V is still almost 100 ponies ahead of the C63 AMG. I’m not a big fan of American cars (just for your info, Im not from USA) and when Jalopnik announced they went for Lutz “shenanigans” I got fired up. LAter I researched the CTS-V and I said to myself: “Dear Mr Siler (Jalopniks test driver), you have just dig yourself into an abysmal hole. The CTS-V specs are second to none.
In fact, Lutz already has his 1st knock out, the Benz people chickened away from the race leaving the Jalopnik people stranded in the middle of the ocean. Now they will be driving a Jaguar XFR. All I have to say is: good luck Wes Siler.
On the criticism over GMs marketing strategy, I dig whats oging on right now. We all know that Euros have built this performance-style reputation and that Japanese have built around price and reliability. To my eyes, American cars were just… American cars. Large as hell, lots of HP and boring designs. Such things have been changing for good. The message I heard from BOb Lutz was…
We are no longer making American cars, we are making World class cars at America.
Mr. Lutz,
It’ll be interesting to hear about the challenge.
On the note of “May the best car win.”
I had the opportunity to check out an Enclave, Accadia, SRX, and LaCrosse at the local dealer.
Things at GM are looking much better….. BUT GM still has room for improvement. Right now I’m considering a LaCrosse or a CTS4…
The LaCrosse advertisements definitely make the car look better then it is in person. My initial reaction to a Dark Blue LaCrosse was wow there it is followed by it’s a lot smaller then I thought and the paint kinda looks drab and monotone. I think GM needs to offer a bit more sport or something with the LaCrosse front end. I can’t quite put my finger on it. The car looks good but just doesn’t quite have the dazzle I was hoping for. I really wish there was a manual option in the LaCrosse especially in the AWD (the same can be said about the CTS4).
Why no manuals on anything Bob?
I’m still going to look into a LaCrosse or CTS4 but I wish the LaCrosse was a bit better then it appears (Turbo engine, or AWD like the CTS4 has where all power can go front or rear).
I have to say I loved the seats on the Accadia but was disappointed that the better looking Enclave didn’t get the same seats. What is up with that? Why do I have to get a vehicle that isn’t as nice looking with the nicer interior features? Why not offer the Buick with them?
The SRX was pretty amazing. However when will a Buick version be out?
Overally I think if GM can keep it up they will have some great cars. I just wish they would get them spot on. The whole May the best car win thing is pretty neat but why do you have to compare your flagship sedan with everyone else? Especially considering most people can’t even afford one.
Why not compare your regular models like the new LaCrosse? From a spectator’s viewpoint it appears like GM is only bringing its best product to the table to compete with what? a select few cars that are even in the same class?
Why not let the best car win among cars that are priced reasonably and that more people can afford? How about a comparison with Mr. Lutz driving a Cobalt against ??, Or a Solstice against a Miata/Z4/M4 etc… what about the new Malibu against NIssan/Toyota etc.. and how about the new LaCrosse against Lexus, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, BMW 1 series or even 3 series etc…
GM simply can’t do it right now. We’re waiting though…. good luck
Congratulations, I guess, but it’s very difficult to get excited about this. It’s a bigger engine in an otherwise decent car.
I wouldn’t get anywhere any faster in a CTS-V than in my paid-for 10-year-old 2.0L 4-banger, nor would practically anyone else who’s got an ounce of common sense. How many are you going to sell per month? A few hundred? At least I can hope the development costs were low.
I’d be much more excited if you were rolling the Cruze, with an EPA estimated fuel economy upwards of 40mpg into showrooms this month or putting up a fight for the 18K units of Priuses that sold last month with an exciting new midsize hybrid product that gets upwards of 50mpg and competes with the Prius on price.
Darwin:
Just because you don’t like performance cars doesn’t mean this challenge is pointless. Many car afficianados feel that high performance vehicles are examples of their respective manufacturers best engineering. This is why Bob is issuing the challenge, not because he believes you can get to the grocery store faster if you have 556hp. Your comments indicate you aren’t really a car buff and don’t read automotive publications. I can tell you that direct comparisons between high performance cars are very common and many folks are interested in how the best vehicles compare. If you want a Prius than you should buy one. I don’t think a Prius competitor is necessarily that exciting nor do I think there is room in the market for another car like the Prius that can sell in high volume. Many experts predicted success for the Insight due to its price and supposed pent up demand for hybrids. That has not happened so far in spite of the fact that the Insight is cheaper than the Prius.
Your comments indicate you aren’t really a car buff and don’t read automotive publications
Sheth Jones,
Guess what? Most car owners are not car buffs. Most car owners buy cars because they want reliable transportation that can carry them dependably from Point A to Point B.
That’s once reason Toyota, Honda, and Nissan were able to make such strides over the last 25 years. Most of their products have little flash, but they are reliable and efficient. That’s all that most people want. They want a car that will start when its supposed to, that won’t break down, and that will get them to their destination with some degree of moderate comfort.
Of course there are hard core car buffs. There are also people for whom luxury and making a statement about their socio-economic status is the primary concern, but both those types are a minority.
The majority of people just want reliable, affordable transportation that fits their needs.
Pepper:
Nothing you said was relevant. See, the problem with obsessive GM bashers is that they don’ t do any research before attacking. Your premise is that GM is focusing on the CTS-V even though its not a mainstream car. This comparison is for ENTHUSIASTS, not the general public. The average consumer looking for a Malibu or Lacrosse wont care about this but car buff DO care about this and they want to see the results. Your suggestion that GM is focusing on big hp cars while ignoring “boring” cars like the ones sold by Honda and Toyota is off base. Do some research on the following:
Enclave, Malibu, Terrain, Equinox, Lacrosse, Traverse, Cruze, Camaro. None of those vehicles are high priced niche vehicles and all perform as well and are constructed as well as their counterparts from Toyota and Honda.
Your suggestion that GM is focusing on big hp cars while ignoring “boring” cars like the ones sold by Honda and Toyota is off base.
I didn’t suggest that at all. Read what I wrote, not what you think I “suggested.” My complaint wasn’t with GM, but with you for attacking Darwin for not being a car buff.
Anyone with half a brain would realize that GM doesn’t focus exclusively on big HP cars. (Although it does appear Bob Lutz thinks they are pretty important or he would issue a challenge that had more of a practical note for the majority of potential American car buyers instead of one that involves going around a race track at high speed.)
Sheth Jones,
I agree… The CTS-V is one of GM’s best cars right up there with the ZR1 or is that ZR-1 (I can’t remember anymore). The only complaint I have is that I wish GM would apply that technology to their other cars. Why not put the mag ride shocks as an option on other lower level cars? I’d love to see a CTS4 with the same handling qualities that the CTS-V has (baring the weight difference of course)…. or how about a stick…
What about sticking the CTS-V technology in the new LaCrosse? How about a turbo 450 HP Version of the AWD LaCrosse to give GM a slightly smaller high technology car?
I agree GM needs to issue challenges in more then speed around a track.
Shet Jones writes, “Your comments indicate you aren’t really a car buff and don’t read automotive publications.”
Sure I am and sure I do. I even own a car that I enjoy driving and I won’t own a car I don’t enjoy driving. But I also read sales figures and financial reports
GM doesn’t need a halo car, GM needs solid midrange hits. Especially given the weak economy, GM needs solid small, economical cars that people will want to own and drive. And the challenge for GM is to build them profitably.
As for the Insight, it doesn’t sell as well as the Prius because it’s not as good and the fuel economy isn’t there (per the EPA). It turns out that people who are highly motivated to get cars with very good fuel economy are able and willing to spend a small additional amount of money to get the good car with amazingly good fuel economy. This is a market GM should tap.
“GM doesn’t need a halo car, GM needs solid midrange hits. Especially given the weak economy, GM needs solid small, economical cars that people will want to own and drive. And the challenge for GM is to build them profitably.”
Darwin:
What has given you the idea that GM is ONLY worrying about v8 powered super sedan? It shocks me that anyone who has access to the internet could be so oblivious and off target. The two most covered GM vehicles of the year are the Equinox and Lacrosse. The Chevy starts at $23k and the Buick starts at $28k. They are mainstream vehicles that are well made and attractive. The CTS-V isn’t even a new product, its been out since 2008 and it has not stopped GM from working on smaller, more efficient models. You also brag that you look at the sales charts- I doubt that. Small vehicles do not outsell midsize sedans or crossovers. In any event, GM has the Cruze coming out next year. This car has been well publicized on the internet and most auto industry followers are familiar with the car and its 1.4L turbo engine. GM has also shown concept versions of the Orlando and Spark which will be sold here. They are working on numerous small vehicles that will debut in the coming years. In the meantime the efficient Malibu and Equinox are here now.
the Insight is a sales flop. I know all about its mileage but many thought it would be a smash hit because its cheaper than the Prius and still offer great mileage compared to most compacts. Honda sells about 2000 a month.
Gee, Sheth, I don’t know if it escaped your notice but GM went bankrupt. This is a company that didn’t understand the meaning of “scarce resources” as it was going under. GM couldn’t do all things for all people but one of the things that they chose to do was the CTS-V… a car that will sell in negligible quantities.
They needed a hit that would sell to mass quantities of people. They need to get more people into GM cars and satisfied with the experience, so that they will buy more GM cars. They needed more XFE programs; they needed better and more inviting interiors on their midrange cars. Money spent on the CTS-V (and the Volt and a few other things) was money not spent where it needed to be spent.
It doesn’t matter how good the CTS-V is, if only a few people will buy one.
What has given you the idea that GM is ONLY worrying about v8 powered super sedan?
Well, for one thing have you seen Bob Lutz issuing any challenges for people to meet him and “run what ya brung” for an Impala, or a Malibu, or a Lacrosse, or a Cobalt?
Darwin said:
“GM couldn’t do all things for all people but one of the things that they chose to do was the CTS-V… a car that will sell in negligible quantities.”
And yet it will probably make GM more money than all the Aveo’s they sell.
Augie,
The Malibu, LaCrosse etc are not performance cars. Who cars if the Camry is a few seconds faster around a track than a Malibu. People don’t buy those cars for performance. However, people do buy a CTS-V for performance so it makes sense to do a “run what ya brung” for that car.
Exactly Tim. And that’s what creates the impression that GM most cares about performance. That’s the inevitable result of GM creating the hype about the CTS-V by having Bob issue his challenge.
I’m really impressed by this, it’s not often I find myself cheering for a multi-national corporation. I look forward to seeing who wins.
I think GM has begun designing and building some vehicles worth considering. Actually buying is another story because of the dealership experience.
Last month, I was in the market for a sports sedan in the $50K range.I was considering the 3-series, A4/S4 and C-class. I also wanted to at least drive the CTS. So I went on the Cadillac site and found the dealer nearest San Francisco. (The fact that the Cadillac building in SF now houses a movie theater speaks volumes.) I provided all my contact info on the form and wound up exchanging a couple of email messages with the internet sales person at the dealership south of SFO, making an appointment that same day, a Friday at 6 PM. After work, I picked up a friend and drove the 15 or so miles to the store. When I arrived, it appeared deserted. This particular location sells Cadillac, Buick, GMC and Chevrolet from a single showroom. Comparing it to the SF dealerships for the German brands is like comparing Walmart to Nordstrom. Worse, I had to search for an employee. They were all in a back room, clustered around a TV, eating. I asked for the sales person I had the appointment with and was told, between chews, that he had gone home early. No one else offered to step in and show me a vehicle or let me take a test drive. Instead, my friend and I were left on our own to wander the showroom. I walked out disgusted. The next day, I went back to BMW and paid cash for a 3-series.
It’s worth noting that I’ve had no followup from this sales person or dealership. They have my name, email address and phone number. I believe I made it clear that I was a motivated and serious buyer. The entire experience just leaves me dumbfounded. Yes, you can design and build competitive vehicles. Yes, you can market and advertise them to pull in your targets. But if the folks in the local store can’t convert a serious prospect who falls into their laps, you might as well shut the whole machine down and go home.
MArk:
GM doesnt control its dealers. If you have a complaint you should let GM know or find another dealer. I wouldn’t put up with subpar treatment at any dealer. The few times I’ve been to luxury car dealers I’ve never noticed any eagerness on the behalf of the sales staff. If you look at JD POwer surveys you will see that German automakers are rarely at the top of the list for dealer satisfaction. I don’t have a problem with demanding great service, but I do have a problem with people who pretend that all GM’s competitors offer stellar service in every dealer in the entire country. Facility age is something a dealership has little power to control, especially in this economy. I don’t know how many Cadillac dealers you have in SF (not many I would imagine) but if the physical age of the facility is critical I don’t understand why you would visit and old dealer and then complain that their facility couldn’t compare to more modern dealers selling import brands. Find the newest Cadillac dealer in your area and pay it a visit.
Sheth,
Again I think you missed it.
He shouldn’t have to find the newest dealer. GM should make sure all their dealers are up to par. If a dealer is old they can make the building look good and train their sales people to function the way GM wishes to portray the sales experience (or find people who can).
I shouldn’t have to drive far out of my way to find a good dealer. In my local area there are 2 maybe 3 decent dealers that I’d take my car to have serviced…. only one of them is Cadillac (and fortunately for me it is the closest).
NAte:
No, you missed the point. Gm cannot “make” its dealers do anything. Do some research on franchise laws. GM does not directly control dealers and it does not manage dealers. Part of the reason GM is phasing out dealers is so that remaining dealers can increase profits and have money to improve their facilities. GM cannot afford to spend its money to fix up every dealer in the country. They are hoping the reduction in dealer count will eliminate many lower end dealers and boost the strength of the remaining ones. Import automakers have newer dealers because they have been in the US a much shorter time and many of their dealers have only developed within the last 20 years or so. Meanwhile some domestic dealers have been in business for 70-80 years. In addition, older dealers (mostly domestic) tend to be located on smaller parcels in more urbanized areas. Since the imports came along later their dealers are more likely to be in the suburbs and exurbs on larger lots with larger, newer buildings. Its all very complicated. It cannot be solved overnight and GM cannot force dealers to spend millions on renovations if their business isn’t healthy.
“Do some research on franchise laws.”
You must not know much about politics. Laws can be changed — rather easily in fact. All it requires is a few contributions to the right politician. Surely GM knows the ways of the world and could have the franchise laws changed if they wanted to.
But perhaps it is easier for GM to say, “They are independent dealers out of our control” when customers complain about how dealers treat them.
Mark,
I have found my experience with GM dealers the exact opposite. Every time I go I am hounded by sales people. I find it very intrusive when I want to explore a vehicle without some guy trying to tell me about a car that I know more about then he does. Which brings me to my next point. GM really really needs to make sure dealers have at lest one sales guy that knows the car more then inside and out.
For instance I would expect good Caddy salesman to be able to tell me why the CTS4’s AWD system is a good or better then the competition. That might be asking a lot but I think if GM is fixing the buying experience they need to consider it.
Overall though every GM dealer I’ve been to has been helpful and at very least someone walks up to greet me when I look like I’m checking a car out.
The only other gripe I’ve got is dealers that don’t keep at least one model of each car they sell unlocked so I can hop in and see how the seats are.
I personally hate having to ask to have a car unlocked simply to sit in it and see if i like the way it feels. This usually makes a sales people swarm.
Just my thoughts.
I do have to admit though when I checked out an SRX in Florida the sales guy was very nice and very low stress. He unlocked the car and let me sit in it and see how things worked…. That was probably one of the best dealer experiences I’ve ever had.
Mick is scared.
No I am 3000 miles away. Come to PIR. I will run against you guys there in a heartbeat. Albeit its a touch more windy than your track in New York. Might not be fair.
Plus being our here in the NW, it will probably rain or something. That might not be good for a rwd car.
OK one last thing. The CTS-V is a powerplant with alot of oomph. But lets be honest. its an LS1 motor, correct? With a huge displacement and supercharged. This car is all motor. In a straight line, the CTS-V is a beast. It will trap 5mph faster than most of the competition (AMG 63, RS4, IS-F, RS4, etc…) I don’t’ want a straight line car that as top gear put it, looks like was designed with a ruler. I will take the beauty, luxury, driveability and road course handling of the german cars any day. When i pay $65k for a CTS-V, i am paying for an engine in a box. When I paid $66k for the M3 or the RS4, i paid for the entire package, plus got an incredible engine, one of the best engines ever made.
I do respect the CTS-V for its straight line speed, but its not a road course car in the league of the germans. add 140hp more to the M3 or RS4 to match the CTS-V, game over. BTW guys are wringing over 500hp out now by bolting on a supercharger. Would be interesting to see that match. That seems more equivalent, minus the extra 2 liters of displacement. To me GM made a car and bolted on as much stuff to get it to beat a specific market. I think GM is reaching here, there are alot of other things they need to work on to be competitive. Design, material sciences, reliability.Very rarely do you hear someone say “Wow that CTS-V is beautiful, or that new GTO is a real design win, or I can never get enough of GM and Ford rehashing cars from 40 years ago”.
Also I didn’t see a track time for the new RS6 being sold. I can’t imagine any 4 door beating that on the track. Wonder if they have run it?
Also I wouldn’t be too quick to discount the posted time run by Frank Stipler on the ring in the RS4. The RS4 that ran 8:09 was not on an R compound tire. The CTS-V ran an R compound, so my guess is that the answer run in the RS-4 by Frank was to match tires. And yes they are stock tire offerings on the RS4 in Europe, so not anything to cry foul on. Are the R compounds stock on the CTS-V? Hmm no they aren’t. Michelin PS2’s are stock. Seems the Corsa’s were used to get a little extra grip! Only fair play the other car manufacturers do the same then, wouldn’t you agree?
Anything can be done to prep a car, alot of shennanigans and skewing of facts. The true test is to have people walk in off the street to a dealer, pick up the car in stock with no pre-warning, and see how they do on a track.
Mick:
“I do respect the CTS-V for its straight line speed, but its not a road course car in the league of the germans.”
Uhhhh…..you might want to recheck those performance stats. The CTS positively trounces all of Germany’s best sedans on the road course.
No you might want to actually watch the footages and analyze where the cars do best. CTS-V makes up for time in the straights where it has the straightline speed. It loses in corners. How else do you explain a vette doing the course many seconds faster than the CTS-V, with the same engine? Its because the CTS-V loses on handling. A car like the M3, M5, RS4, Panamera, all do the course with much less displacement, and they gain on their handling ability. That was my point. Yes the CTS_V does the course very quick, but not best, and the reason it does well is purely straightline speed, not handling prowess.
“No you might want to actually watch the footages and analyze where the cars do best. CTS-V makes up for time in the straights where it has the straightline speed. It loses in corners. How else do you explain a vette doing the course many seconds faster than the CTS-V, with the same engine? Its because the CTS-V loses on handling. ”
Mick:
For someone who keeps talking about racing you sure seem to be missing some obvious points. First of all, the Ring is full of turns and does not allow cars to hit top speed. The CTS-V recorded an outstanding time there in spite of the fact that the track favors grip, balance and braking more than hp. The hp is a factor in the car’s performance, but hardly the primary factor. The 260hp Cobalt SS is faster than many RWD sports sedans at the Ring because of its grip, tires and brakes. The car has far less hp than many slower cars.
the ZR1 is faster than the CTS-V because it weighs 700lbs less and has 638hp vs 556 for the CTS. When you consider how much heavier the CTS-V is vs the Vette it makes the performance that much more impressive. The CTS-V is probably easier to drive around that course than the Zr1 so its absolutely ridiculous to say the V is lacking in the handling department.
I think Mr. Lutz should show up with a used car (100K miles) to make it interesting.
They really think that something such as a Cadillac can beat any car in its class? I bet the Pontiac Grand Prix GTP would smoke the Caddy and all of its mediocre features. I would challenge you with my Trans Am, but your being a wuss by saying “only four doors”. This really isnt a challenge. You put a Corvette engine in any car and its going to go fast. Why dont you produce the Pontiac G8 GXP Street edition? Its alot cheaper than the Caddy, and its alot faster than a Corvette. You will lose to something, thats for sure. But to what, I have no idea. I hope a Pontiac comes out there to smoke you. Then maybe you will see that your ‘new GM’ cars are over priced garbage. And why arnt you challenging with any other car? Why does it have to be a cadillac? Why not your ugly Buick brand? Show the world all the stupid and pointless cars your making right now, and what the cant do. (go over the speed limit) You only chose the Cadillac because it has the biggest and best engine you can offer. Its really pathetic. You should race with something other than that, say the Cobalt, Volt, Lacrosse, Malibu, or a Cruze. But, I forgot. Your too scared to drive any of these cars, because you know you will lose. Your so called ‘new GM’ products are nothing more than over priced, shotty looking Toyotas. And that’s sad.
Plus, when you do lose, you will look even worse than you did before. And I am going to laugh when it happens. Your heading in the worse direction possible. So when you end up with nowhere to go, you will know where you made your mistake, but you can never go back. You will fail.
@Adam;
Obviously you’ve not driven a CTS. I have, and not a V, but a direct injection 3.6. I’ve also driven the huffer Grand Prix as well as the final generation T/A. No way either indian would come close to the Caddy. If you’re really a ponchophile, I see you refer to the G8; are you driving one? Walkin’ the walk counts a hell of a lot more then then talkin’ the talk.
Dennis J Gallagher
PS I understand Cadillac is testing a CTS-V equipped with Lexus floor mats. Lutz will be warpspeed fast with the throttle stuck wide open!
“…Lutz, you’ve beaten them all and set a track record…”
“….oh dammmmn–I can’t slow down…”
DJG
LOL @ DJG
Actually, I own two Pontiac’s. one being a Grand Am custom, and the other being a Trans Am Ram Air. The caddy is a real turd. I drove a 2002 caddy El Dorado with a 3.8 Northstar V8 direct injection(which is better than a CTS), and it doesn’t have near enough power. So what makes you think that a 3.6 will be any better? Its not, and it never will be, because Cadillac will never be able to make anything good since GM died a year ago.
And as for the G8 reference, it was to the GM bean counters that chose not to make the G8 special edition. the G8 GXP Street Edition has 631 horses under the hood stock. But no, they opted for an overpriced and underpowered Caddy. Your just too afraid to admit that the ‘new GM’ garbage cars floating around here, are nothing more than recycled bad ideas. Your Caddy, or Lutzs’ Caddy for that matter(the one that’s going to be modified to try to beat Toyota’s and Honda’s), would lose in a heartbeat to a GTO, or even a Can Am. Your comments mean nothing, and neither do you. So shut your mouth, because you have no right to even be talking.
Adam W.
I am not sure what colour the sky is in your world, but I am sure it is a fantastic place…
Please, go read some articles and facts…then come back.
Same with Mick, CTS-V is not all straight line speed, remove your head from whatever box it is stuck in, even the Germans love that car…
I really should stop feeding the trolls.
OMG Adam, you really don’t have a clue here. I am not a huge fan of the CTS-V marketing machine, and the fudging of facts on the Ring, using Corsa’s to get times down, etc. But I do give it credit for being a very fast car. the Pontiacs you are referencing would get spanked stock against stock. You shouldn’t be allowed to post here when you come strong with a pontiac reference. BTW I have time slips posted my stock RS4 against a couple different GTO 6.0’s, my 4.2L beat them all times run against them. Not just once or twice all 5 times. Pontiac was a good brand to kill. Now they can get rid of Lincoln Mercury, and join Oldsmobile, Saturn in the graveyard.
“BTW I have time slips posted my stock RS4 against a couple different GTO 6.0’s, my 4.2L beat them all times run against them. Not just once or twice all 5 times. ”
I know you’re a troll but I will respond anyway. Its silly to brag than an $80k AWD Audi with 420hp is faster than a $35k RWD Pontiac with 400hp. I would hope the Audi is faster than the GTO considering it costs FAR more. The RS4 being faster doesn’t make the GTO a poor performer. When it was out the GTO delivered great bang for the buck. Can’t say the same about the overpriced RS4.
adam, adam, adam;
Never was a 2002 Eldo w/3.8 liter direct injection engine. Northstar engine installed in that car was 4.6 liters and nooooot direct injection. I should shut-up? Possibly when the maroons stop spouting so much ingnorance. Not only are you misinformed, but possibly too lazy to look up info that would save you from sounding so under educated. Best of luck with your “special, street. ultra-turbo,mega chipped, fanboy, stick on portholes, with chrome flames, edition”.
Dennis J Gallagher
Bob,
Is Cadillac ever planning to build a sports sedan having AWD and a stick? Personally, I’d love to buy a CTS4 but I really want a manual transmission too.
The Audi has quattro w/ manual, BMW’s offer AWD and manual and so does Mercedes. I understand that their business case is probably helped by the Europeans preference for manual transmissions, but if Cadillac wants to play with the big dogs, you need to step up.
Make it available and I’ll be first in line with cash in hand. I personally know several people that would have preferred to buy a GM product, but your lack of this sports oriented combination (w/ AWD) has sent these buyers elsewhere. I am willing to wait a couple years if I know it’s coming. So is your head nodding up and down or side to side?
I can’t agree more. a Manual AWD is a great thing. I am torn between the new LaCrosse and the CTS4. The CTS4 is a bit bigger and offers a true RWD drive train with the ability to transfer all power to either front or rear wheels…. the LaCrosse is a FWD that has rear drive wheels too… a big difference in appeal to me especially since GM has yet to produce a 300 HP manual transverse mount engine. The CTS on the other hand is much closer to what BMW or Mercedes has while the LaCrosse is more like an Audi…. Except neither really is. Audi has some very powerful front wheel drives and they offer manual transmissions.
Of course GM doesn’t…. thats my take on it. the CTS4 wins my approval except I wish it had a more manual feeling transmission.
Now, if you can just convince Fritz that Zeta is a viable product for NA other than just a police cruiser.
Seriously! I work for a GM dealership in Canada and we have a LOT of people trying to get G8s, the ones we do get are off the lot inside a month.
It was an amazing car canned by BS.
They axe it here because there is no market, then they release it and the sport truck in the UK where gas costs twice as much (not including dollar parity) and they have a lot less room to drive.
Bring them and the wagon over. Make something for the working class…please.
People who say fast cars are dumb are the same people who say NASA is a waste. A lot of what we have today is a direct result of what someone built/designed years ago to concur something previously unattainable. I like tang and I sometimes could never live without Velcro.
Good luck GM, you’re a great company and I love the way you are beginning to carry yourself. Car guys doing car guy things make great cars. Toyota builds bland boring, poorly design metal boxes.
People who say fast cars are dumb are the same people who say NASA is a waste…
That is a complete red herring. NASA has a legitimate mission. Speed certainly has a place on the race track, and innovation there has often lead to new technologies. But passenger cars and trucks are for moving people and things from Point A to Point B. Considering how traffic is regulated and restricted in the United States, speed is not essential to the mission. Whether driving an Aveo or a CTS-V, one can’t legally go faster than 65 mph on the highways in my state.
There is no reason d’etre for speed in passenger cars — unless one is lucky enough to live in Germany.
I say fast cars are fun but don’t prove much…. its a case of mine is bigger then yours syndrome…. who cares. The real point is that the CTS is the showcase of GM technology except it is one of two or so cars that have that level of technology in it (certainly the LaCrosse doesn’t have anywhere near that good kind of technology like the active handling system and rehomagnetic shocks).
As to NASA… I could argue both ways… I tend to think NASA has been a great thing and we need to spend a bit more on them….
BTW Corky Estrada: Speed may not matter but how about we put a lawn mower engine in your car and tell us how fun driving in traffic is. Try pulling out with 1 HP onto a freeway…. Heck you probably couldn’t hit 60 MPH with only 1HP in a production car. Not to mention depending on where you live driving can be somewhat boring (like it was for me in Florida) or it can be exciting like it is in north west New York and other north eastern states. In those places having a few extra HP can make for some fun driving even if only below 50 MPH…..
Performance has a place in cars in different amounts for everyone. If you have no need for speed may I suggest the bus, walking or a bike?
Your one h.p. engine idea is ridiculous — and you know it.
But a CTS-V with 556 h.p.can legally go no faster on an Interstate highway than an Aveo with a 107 h.p. engine.
Hi Bob. I don’t doubt that the CTS-V is amazing. But this stunt is ridiculous. Nobody can afford a car like that. I’d appreciate much more publicity and engineering focus on practical cars like the Malibu or Cruze.
Ron
Nobody can afford a car like that…
I bet Bob Lutz can afford one. And I’m sure all those people working at AIG who are getting six-figure bonuses with our bailout money can afford one.
Affording a CTS-V isn’t to big a feat for many people… paying cash may be a stretch for some but there are always people who can afford them .
You hit the nail right on the head with that comment Ned. Nobody with a middle class income can even touch a ‘new GM’ vehicle without paying for it. And even if they did reduce the price, nobody would buy the ‘new GM’ crap they throw on the lots. And that’s because nobody wants them. They are all ugly and have no performance behind them at all. so I guess that is why Ford is doing so well right now. They have cars that people want, and can afford.(except for me. I hate Ford) But, the bean counters will never be able to figure that one out. They just want to rip everyone off while they are getting rich.
I could afford a new GM if i wanted to spend 30 or 40K on one. And I think with 280 HP in the LaCrosse, available AWD a nice interior and nice albeit bland exterior GM’s offerings arren’t THAT bad. Additionally a used CTS with 304 HP is in my price range. So really I’m not sure what you are talking about in terms of cost.
I’m sure Ford’s new Turbo engines will be nearly the same price as what GM offers maybe more. If thats the case GM needs to step up the game and drop a turbo on the LaCrosse and CTS. I could see an even 400 HP from a turbo engine.
“Hi Bob. I don’t doubt that the CTS-V is amazing. But this stunt is ridiculous. Nobody can afford a car like that.”
Actually people who can afford a 550i, M3, E350/550, M45, STS, DTS, A6, S4, MKS or XF can afford a CTS-V. I just saw one the other day. There are tons of cars on the road that cost between $50k-$60k when new. I wouldn’t say “no one” can afford a $60k Cadillac. The Escalade costs more than that and they sell a few thousand every month.
I happen to own a 2009 CTS-V, my first American car in many years. This is the only car I’ve ever owned (and I’ve owned almost 20) that has come even close to being all that the hype machine makes of it. It is a refined sedan that I can have lots of fun with on the side. It is maximum bang for the buck. Even the lesser CTS (especially the 3.6DI) is a great-looking, great-performing car with reasonable gas mileage. I’m a Honda guy and if GM keeps making cars like these, they have a bright future and I could be a permanent switcher to the brand.
Over 6k miles and not a squeak inside yet.
I just want to thank folks like Bob Lutz for bringing products like this to market. Now kick some ass!
Bob – I am curious about the rumor that DeLorean is thinking of buying the Solstice brand, engineering rights, and plant? I assume they are not buying the rights to the name Pontiac. I hope there is some secret file locked away in a file cabinet that states ‘when we pay the govt their money back, then we relight the Pontiac brand.’ I know Im dreaming Bob, but we need something!
On second thought, this is a great, cheap and fun marketing effort. Renting a track for a day is cheap compared to a TV commercial, and this will get free coverage … and everyone attending will probably have a blast. What’s wrong with that? If I owned a capable 4-door, I’d apply …
Bob, It seems you’ll never learn it. Times are changing but your focus have always been H.P. and a very strange design. Maybe it would be for many of the now very few employees better when you would start gardening (maybe not for the moles – you do not need much imagination …).
Thanks for all damage & emission you have caused so far.
Sad Peter
If GM truly believes that its vehicles are best, then it MUST back them best. A “No Exceptions” warranty for 7years/100,000 miles for Chevrolets, 8 y/125,000 for Buick and GMC, and a 10/150,000 mile warranty for Cadillac, with dealer-provided maintenance included.
This would PROVE GMs are best because you BACKED them best, which would ensure better re-sale values and more value to the buyers and subsequent owners.
I’ve bought 4 new GM cars, and had 2 Buicks where the engines failed through no fault of mine. I keep my cars a long time, so it will take a complete warranty to get me to buy a GM vehicle again.
If you don’t believe in your vehicles enough to provide the best all-inclusive warranty, why should I trust your cars?. I will not buy another GM vehicle if they don’t have better warranties like I described above.
Way to go Bob Lutz.
I hope I can be up there that day to see you whip some @ss.
Big fan of the latest generation CTS ..Own one and an 08 vette z51.
These cars rock!
just curious are we allowed to head up there to watch ?
I figured I’d take a long lunch and check this out.
JB
Adam W. is scared too.
In response to Seth Jones comments.
I do intend to buy a GM vehicle with the present warranty. It is not me they need to convince but the thousand perhaps million of people who have a great mistrust of GM. Why wait for someone else to best you warranty before you improve it yourself. That would be like waiting for some to make a better vehicle than you before you make any improvements on your own. GM needs to be a leader not a follower. To improve a warranty or whatever else it takes to gain customers I don’t think is too much to ask.
I congradulate Bob Lutz for making the challenge. But all I am saying he needs to go further. GM make many more vehicles than the CTS-V and they all need to be proven to be the best. What we must remember here is GM is trying to regain trust and that is a hard thing to do and they need to do extraordinary things. If a warranty improvement will help save their bacon then I don’t think that is too much to ask. You sound like a GM fan so why not embrace any improvements they can make to help them survive and thrive?
Felix:
I am a “factboy” not a fanboy. I dont have a problem with an increased warranty. I am telling you it wont help. Please explain to me how GM will experience a miraculous increase in sales by extending the bumper to bumper warranty if they didn’t see a similar increase when they increased the powertrain warranty. Two of GM’s four brands already have 4 year warranties. If you buy a Lacrosse instead of an Avalon you get a better warranty across the board. I would gladly take a 5 year warranty from GM but I do not delude myself into believing that such a change would have people beating down the doors at a GM dealership. By your logic Hyundai should be the #1 automaker in the US since they offer the longest warranty. Mitsubushi and I believe Suzuki have upgraded their warranties in recent years and I’m not aware of any drastic increase in marketshare.
Please explain to me how GM will experience a miraculous increase in sales by extending the bumper to bumper warranty if they didn’t see a similar increase when they increased the powertrain warranty.
Sheth jones,
It’s the statement GM would make by doing that. In effect they would be saying, “GM has the best cars, period. And if you don’t believe us, here’s the proof to back up that statement. If anything* goes wrong with your car during the first five years, we will fix it.”
__________________________
* With the obvious exception of “fair wear and tear” items such as tires, and routine preventive maintenance.
Sheth writes, “I am a “factboy” not a fanboy. I dont have a problem with an increased warranty. I am telling you it wont help. Please explain to me how GM will experience a miraculous increase in sales by extending the bumper to bumper warranty if they didn’t see a similar increase when they increased the powertrain warranty. Two of GM’s four brands already have 4 year warranties. If you buy a Lacrosse instead of an Avalon you get a better warranty across the board. I would gladly take a 5 year warranty from GM but I do not delude myself into believing that such a change would have people beating down the doors at a GM dealership. By your logic Hyundai should be the #1 automaker in the US since they offer the longest warranty.”
Actually, Hyundai-Kia’s share has grown from 6% to 8% over the last 14 months or so and Hyundai actually had significant sales gains last month.
GM’s 5/100 warranty is, for many people, no better than a 5/60. It’s no advantage to people who drive under 12K miles/year. I’d guess, too, that most people see it as a numbers game, and figure it’s of little value. Further, the GM dealer network may well be driving business away. What good is a 100K mile warranty if the dealer won’t fix the car?
The flip side of your remarks is, if GM’s cars are really that good, then increasing the warranty length (which does seem to be one of the things that’s help Hyundai… the people I know who buy them cite the warranty as a factor in the decision) shouldn’t cost GM anything, as few claims will be filed.
If you (and Bob Lutz and various others) are to be believed, GM cars present as well as anything else. If they’re not selling strongly, it has nothing to do with how the product presents but something else. I could be wrong but I believe that “something” is peace of mind. People don’t believe they’ll get the same satisfaction from a GM car.
If you can find a better way to give prospective buyers peace of mind, by all means, let GM know what it is and they can try it. However, from here, a killer warranty looks like their best shot.
“Actually, Hyundai-Kia’s share has grown from 6% to 8% over the last 14 months or so and Hyundai actually had significant sales gains last month.”
Hyundai expanded their warranty 3 or 4 years ago. The spike in sales you see has more to do with their promotions and incentives than the warranty. Let’s not pretend there was an immediate response to Hyundai increasing its warranty coverage. Chrysler had a lifetime powertrain warranty for a few years and that didn’t lead to any marketshare gains.
I don’t drive more than 12k miles a year but MANY people do. GM’s powertrain warranty guarantees that virtually every GM product owner will get a full 5 years from their powertrain warranty. Cannot say the same for a 5/60k plan. BTW, before GM and Ford increased their powertrain warranties some competitors offered 3 or 4 year powertrain warranties. For the record, VW actually reduced their warranty back to 3 years recently and added free maintenance instead. To my knowledge VW’s increased warranty did little to change perceptions about quality. GM needs to get people into it’s products. If people sample a vehicle and it looks and feels well built they will believe in the long term durability. GM knows its biggest challenge is getting folks to actually LOOK at their cars in person.
Their share has been building for some years, these things do not happen overnight. Hyundai had the twin demons of a bad reputation and listing country of origin as Korea (from whence no good brands of cars had yet hailed) to overcome. GM has only their reputation to overcome, the US does have some history of making class-leading products. The people I know who bought Hyundais… that warranty was a key reason they were willing to try a vehicle brand that they had never purchased before.
Chrysler is a much tougher nut to crack. Unless you happen to really like the gunship look, there’s no reason to buy their vehicles; their reputation is, deservedly, even worse than GM’s and the warranty covers “manufacturing defects” only, not “normal wear and tear.” That’s a loophole the size of a Chrysler transmission… Nobody in his right mind would ever expect to get an actual repair from Chrysler after a nominal 50K miles.
VW is also different… Their reputation is even worse than GM’s. Their sales are mostly to people who are very loyal, mostly because, IMHO, they are crazy. Their vehicles are trouble-prone and then you get to pay VW prices for repair at a much smaller dealer network. It’s not for nothing that I know of garages that specialize in VWs and nothing else. Bumping their warranty by a year or so was bound to achieve little.
Your recommendation that we spend an additional $500 for an extended warranty isn’t particularly helpful. First, let’s try more like $1K. Then, there’s the problem of coverage. I’ve bought extended warranties and found them wanting. If I’m going to pony up an extra $1K for the vehicle plus a warranty that gives me peace of mind, I might as well spend the extra $1K on a vehicle that I think is intrinsically more reliable.
Your response to Del, below, by the way, was rude. Del’s not insane, Del just deeply distrusts GM reliability, he wants GM to express confidence in their vehicle and he’s suggesting a way to do it (and it’s not a unique suggestion).
You mention powertrain warranty, specifically. It’s true that these are likely to be the major expense items but let’s consider the lowly window motor. If it fails with the window lowered… it’s a trip to the shop, isn’t it? It might not cost a giant chunk of change to fix it but it’s a nuisance and an inconvenience, nonetheless. Get up early, get to dealer, wait for dealer to drive you to work, beg ride back to dealer, some out-of-pocket expense, lather, rinse, repeat.
If the car is bullet-proof, the warranty doesn’t cost the manufacturer all that much. If instilling confidence in the vehicle is necessary to get Toyota and Honda owners back into the showrooms, the warranty is necessary. If GM’s aim is simply to hold onto the base, then a longer warranty may not be necessary but GM shouldn’t be surprised or act like nobody’s giving them a fair shake when people continue to buy Toyotas and Hondas… and Hyundais and Kias.
GM already has one of the best powertrain warranties in the biz.. Why fix what isn’t broken?
Though ‘Making the best even better’ would make a great slogan.
Will Bob get any practice laps at MMC before the challenge?
Will Bob be spending several days before this challenge at the MMC track being coached by a professional driver working to get his lap times down? (If so, that would give him a considerable advantage, and invalidate the challenge.)
To be fair, he should step into the car with just his natural skill* and not be allowed any prep or practice time.
____________________
* In Bob’s words: “Run what ya brung.”
An idea for Bob Lutz ~ Enter a Volt in Jay Leno’s “Green Car Challenge”
How about Bob taking a Chevy Volt to L.A. and running it on Jay Leno’s show to see if he can beat any of the times people have been running with the electric version of the Ford Focus on the “Green Car Challenge?”
A great idea. Why not ask Jay Leno to let Bob Lutz bring a Volt on the show and run it in the Green Car Challenge against the electric Focus?
Bob,
Go ahead, do it. Issue a challenge to the electric Focus on Jay Leno’s show. Take a Volt out there and kick some tail.
Really, this makes sense. Try to get Bob on the Jay Leno show to run a Volt against the electric Focus.
Justin said GM already has the best powertrain warranty in the biz.
When I purchase a vehicle I purchase the whole vehicle not just the powertrain. Why not offer the best overall warranty in the biz. Making the best better could only be better for GM. Besides if their vehicle are as good as they say they are increasing the overall warranty to at least as good as the powertrain warranty shouldn’t cost them anything.
Besides if their vehicle are as good as they say they are increasing the overall warranty to at least as good as the powertrain warranty shouldn’t cost them anything.
You are right Felix.
Switching to a bumper-to-bumper warranty would send a powerful and positive message to consumers. There has to a reason GM doesn’t want to do that. I suspect the beancounters won’t let them because they’ve calculated it would be a money losing proposition.
Offering a 5/100 bumper to bumper would be insanity. Name one company that does this, please.
Justin,
I can name one company that SHOULD do it: GM.
They claim to now have the best cars and want to win back the trust of American auto consumers. What better way to get our attention than to make the bold statement of offering a bumper-to-bumper warranty?
Going bumper-to-bumper is exactly the kind of out-of-the-box thinking that would get consumers back on their side. That is unless they don’t have the confidence in their cars to be so bold.
Del:
Thats more than out of the box thinking, that;s insane thinking. While GM wants to prove its products are better they still have to make a profit. The powertrain is the most critical and expensive part of a car so it makes sense to cover it the longest. cadillac and Buick already have 4 year bumper to bumper warranties which is better than average and on par with other luxury makes. Considering that dealers sell extended warranties for affordable prices its absurd to suggest that you are staying away from a GM product simply because the bumper to bumper warranty is too short. In my opinion, one reason most automakers won’t stretch the warranty beyond 4 years is because dealers count on selling extended coverage. To say that GM must not have confidence in it’s quality because it doesn’t offer a 5 year warranty would only make sense if you apply the same judgement to Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc. According to you any company that doesn’t offer a 5 year complete warranty doesn’t have confidence in their product quality.
For the record, the Hyundai warranty that seems to have inspired so many to make demands on GM has several exceptions. Certain parts of the car are only covered for 3 years. You can check it out on their site.
When I get my next car I will likely get an extended warranty from the dealer- they are affordable and thorough.
According to you any company that doesn’t offer a 5 year complete warranty doesn’t have confidence in their product quality.
Sheth Jones,
What I’m saying is that GM is the company that has to gain back our trust. They need to make a bold, out-of-the box statement that will get our attention.
Whether the other companies have or don’t have the confidence to do that is irrelevant. GM is the company that has to reverse three decades of damaged reputation.
While GM wants to prove its products are better they still have to make a profit.
That would be a powerful incentive to make sure their cars are the best and could be counted to run at least five years without any major problems, wouldn’t it?
DeL:
I understand GM’s position. I am merely saying that an increased warranty will not solve their problems. In recent years GM, Ford, Hyundai, Mitsubishi and others have increased either standard or powertrain warranties and to my knowledge none of them saw a huge bump in sales. In fact, Buick upped its coverage to 4 years within the last 5 years and it did little to drive sales. As I’ve said 50 times already, extended warranties are available from dealers for reasonable prices. Anyone who is THAT concerned about GM quality could easily extend their warranty for $500 or so.
In recent years GM, Ford, Hyundai, Mitsubishi and others have increased either standard or powertrain warranties and to my knowledge none of them saw a huge bump in sales.
Sheth jones,
Let’s see. I believe I read last week that Hyundai has now passed Chrysler in U.S. sales.
It’s rather remarkable that over the last 20 years a small, upstart company such as Hyundai that initially had lousy reliability and quality control issues, has had such an upward trajectory; while GM has seen just the opposite and has had a downward trajectory for the last 30 years.
A large part of Hyundai’s current reputation came because of their 10 year warranty plan. And you don’t think there is a lesson there for GM?
Since the Volt is to be a worldwide platform, why not talk about it, your career, and the future of the automobile on the English show Top Gear?
Fuel Economy Leaders: 2010 Model Year
Where are the GM vehicles?
Where are the GM vehicles??
Where are the GM vehicles???
2010 Fuel Economy
Information Now Available
Fuel Economy Leaders
Lowest Models Overall
Highest Models within Class
Lowest Models within Class
Rank Manufacturer/Model MPG
city/highway
1 Toyota Prius (hybrid) 51/48
2 Ford Fusion Hybrid FWD
Mercury Milan Hybrid FWD 41/36
3 Honda Civic Hybrid 40/45
4 Honda Insight (hybrid) 40/43
5 Lexus HS250h (hybrid) 35/34
6 Nissan Altima Hybrid 35/33
7 Ford Escape Hybrid FWD
Mazda Tribute Hybrid 2WD
Mercury Mariner Hybrid FWD 34/31
8 Smart fortwo Cabriolet (automatic)
Smart fortwo Coupe (automatic) 33/41
9 Toyota Camry Hybrid 33/34
10 Lexus RX450h (hybrid, 2WD) 32/28
the Chevy Volt gets 230 mpg. Its the highest.
the entire list your’re citing are hyrids which the public has already shown they don’t want to buy. And the EPA mpg estimates on hybrid vehicles is highly questionable from real life reports of actual drivers. The more the hybrid battery discharges the lower the fuel economy. So the greater frequency of driving the lower the mpg on a hybrid. While a fuel efficienty gas gas engine or FFV the fuel efficiency and savings is constant.
GM has more models which get over 30 mpg than any other automaker. That makes GM the leader.
We already know that Chevy Malibu at 33 mpg has the higher fuel economy than Honda Accord.
Basic enthalpy tells us that electric hybrids are not an efficient way to power transportation. It takes more energy to and cost to get the electricity for a hybrid.
Additionally, fuel whether flex-fuel E-85 ethanol or gasoline has far more energy density than lithium ion batteries.
Ask those who actually own a hybrid and they’ll tell you that under real life driving conditions they don’t get as high of mpg that the EPA claims. Hybrid mileage is much lower than the EPA estimates while gas or diesel engines typically achieve much higher actual mileage than the EPA estimates.
Does the EPA manipulate these mpg estimates? The EPA changes these estimates from model to model year even when the vehicles themselves don’t actually change.
…the Chevy Volt gets 230 mpg. Its the highest.
The Chevy Volt will NOT get 230 mpg.
Start a trip in the Volt with a fully-charged battery and a gallon of gas on the tank, and I guarantee you will not go 230 miles before the car stops running. You would be able to go roughly 80-85 miles ~ about 40 miles or so on the battery and perhaps 40-45 miles on the gallon of gas.
GM is doing everyone a disservice by saying the Volt will go 230 miles on a gallon of fuel. That is all smoke and mirrors.
What the Volt will be able to do is go “…up to 40 miles” on the battery, and after that get about 40-45 mpg when the ICE is running.
Smokey,
Your’re simply misinformed. The Volt runs on an all electic motor that is charged by a gas powered generator.
The Volt gets 230 mpg using the EPA formula.
Edwin,
Put a gallon of gasoline in the Volt’s fuel tank and let’s see how far it will go. I guarantee it will not be 230 miles.
The Volt runs on an all electric motor that is charged by a gas powered generator.
I’m not misinformed. When the Volt’s battery has depleted its initial charge and the car goes into extended range mode with the ICE turning a generator to supply the electricity for the electric motors, it will get roughly 45-50 mpg.
I don’t care how you or GM spin it, going ~40 miles on the battery, and then getting 45-50 mpg in the extended range mode does not equal 230 mpg.
“Rank Manufacturer/Model MPG
city/highway
1 Toyota Prius (hybrid) 51/48
2 Ford Fusion Hybrid FWD
Mercury Milan Hybrid FWD 41/36
3 Honda Civic Hybrid 40/45
4 Honda Insight (hybrid) 40/43
5 Lexus HS250h (hybrid) 35/34
6 Nissan Altima Hybrid 35/33
7 Ford Escape Hybrid FWD
Mazda Tribute Hybrid 2WD
Mercury Mariner Hybrid FWD 34/31″
Every vehicle on that list except the PRius is LOW volume. The Insight is barely selling. The HS starts at $35k and will not be a volume vehicle. Why not compare models that sell in high volumes like Malibu, Camry and Accord? Or Equinox, RAV4 and CR-V?
Making small volume cars with great mileage is great for topping lists but it doesn’t mean much in terms of total gas saved. How many Tribute hybrids do you think are sold each month? I’ve never even seen one.
The Altima hybrid is only sold in 8 states and is extremely low volume.
what a great blog…well I work for Lexus at retail….they build great cars…I appraise cars every day….and we repair them to get them ready for reselling as used cars….guess what ?? they(lexus) are EXPENSIVE to repair and remarket because they have their issues also. I appraise GMs all the time and anything built since 2004-05 is actually still pretty nice and tight no matter what the mileage is. Lexus has built the “perception” of great cars….but we rarely see high mileage ones. of course dont forget that most lexus owners are older and drive relatively gently and maintain their cars meticulously. makes a difference as to how they feel at 140,000 kms….
GMs are a bigger cross section and wider variety of ages and maintenance …Just appraised 2 Cadillacs this weekend…an 03 SLS with 130,000kms and an 03 Deville….gotta tell ya…they unfortunately were not worth much but they sure drove perfectly and rode tight and quiet…So what the lesson?? PERCEPTION is everything in the auto biz….all product is pretty good and if GM can rebuild the perception of quality ..people will come back in droves. By the way…drove a new LaCrosse last week….at our Sales Meeting I told our salespeople ..watch out boys…this is a tough competitor to our ES 350…and much sportier cabin and road feel …so Lexus is great but GM is coming strong…Gonna be a good fight. There is room for both…Got my new Camaro SS in June (fun car)…amazing piece of machinery Bob L…amazing….Dont count GM out of this ball game …
cheers from Canada.
Claude:
I’m glad you explained why perception is key. Its funny you mention lack of high mileage Lexus because I rarely see genuinely old Lexus vehicles on the road nor do I know anyone who has kept one for a long period of time. Someone in my family has an ES350 but I believe its leased and thus long term reliability isn’t even going to come into play. From what I’ve read all foreign luxury cars are expensive to maintain (except BMW) and repair. I read a long term review of an IS-F and the costs to own over 25k miles were close to $3k not including gas. The car never had any reliability issues but it was in the dealer every 5k miles for scheduled maintenance and that ads up, especially once you start replacing brake rotors and air filters.
I agree with Claude that GM’s biggest problem is perception. I am suggesting an increased warranty as just one tool to help change that perception. They have to improve their advertising and marketing.
Improve the products that need improving. Eliminate all excuses why I or any other customer would
choose another manufactures product over a GM product.
As far as what the other manufactures offer you must remember their reputation and perception are already established.
GM need to reestablish both therefore they need to do more. Offer better warranty’s across the board.
Offer better products across the board.Do better in compareson tests. Do advertising that point these better points.
Chevy already has the best warranty. Chevy’s awareness is rising with its introduction of stylish models like the Malibu.
Chevy should feature a manuel transmission on the 4 cyclinder Ecotec version of the Malibu to raise perception and awareness and expand its target market toward the youth market. Adding a spoiler, a manuel transmission option, and grab handles would give a big boost to the car’s image. Offer a more sporty youth oriented wheel for the racing edition without raising the price.
The Malibu has great youth appeal and Chevy should be maximizing this.
Suggest offering a racing edition with stripe down the center of the hood on the Malibu.
Chevy also should do more complementary advertising with its Colorado Z71 alongside the Silverado to boost the youth image of the brand.
—————-
I’m strongly recommending the Buick expand its sedan offerings in the present economy. Buick is the priority over a new Chevy Malibu in the present economy.
Buick should offer a Park Avenue V-8 sedan styled as a larger version of the 2010 LaCrosse to attract the BMW 745i / Lexus GS buyer.
Buick should have a Park Avenue to differentiate from Cadillac, and attract the more horiztonal / diagonal looks and curves out there in the market place.
Buick should have a Riviera sedan based on Aurora for example with a small 4.0 V-8 (or 5.3L OHV V-8) option to tarket the M3 and the CLS 500 on looks and performance.
I’m not as concerned about the RWD vs FWD issue as stage as much as getting the looks and the luxury engine options to the consumer. ITs really important for GM to react and respond to fulful the demand for these luxury styled sedans in the market right now.
The early indications are that the Buick LaCrosse has broken the barrier for the Buick brand among high end luxury taste levels. To continue the momentum and really make Buick come alive GM should add the suggested Park Avenue and Riviera sedans with small V-8 luxury option packages.
Buick has high potential to really soar on sales.
Buick and Cadillac should offer an all new small sedan and coupe to specically target Lexus IS on looks.
Buicks version could be called a Regal sedan and coupe taking cues from Shanghai Riviera concept.
———————————-
I believe very strongly that GM can and will lead a car comeback with Buick and Cadillac if it follows through and delivers on luxury and that this should not be underestimated.
Heres just one reason:
A typical Saturday in October at the Mall at Millenia in Orlando should illustrate the issue for GM. The Mall at Millenia is one of the highest sales per square foot malls in the U.S. (About $1000 per square ft.). Its quite large and features most high end chain retailers in the U.S. market. It is typically busy on Saturday with full parking lot.
What do you suppose is parked there?
Roughly 65-70% on the parking lot are cars
while only 30-35% are SUVs, cross-overs, etc.
There are higher percent of NEW cars parked at this mall on a Saturday as one would expect.
Of the new American cars, there are a healthy number patrons driving new muscle cars like the Camaro, Challenger, Mustang, and the CTS. There are many new Malibus, and recent Pontiac G6 at this mall which shows that this customer wants to be American and is desperately looking for a stylish American sedan. A high number of Dodge Chargers and Chysler 300s were present.
Of the newest GM styles, the Malibu and the G6 were strongly represented.
Most of the vehicles on the lot seemed to be the fully loaded versions too. When they had a Malibu, it was the really dressed up Malibu.
But there were also plenty of BMWs, expensive Volkswagons, and many full size ones like the BMW 745i. The Volkswagon Jetta, Infinitis, and Altimas are sprinkled around with the Pontiac G6 among them.
There were a high number of luxury models with V-8 engines. One would find as many or more Lexus GS V-8 as they would the cheaper ES model.
In this market segment there is HUGE opportunity for GMC, Buick, and Cadillac. Those driving the STS also showed up on the lot as well as only the most stylish of the Lincolns.
This market segment is driving their Malibu LTZ and acting like it is a BMW. If this isn’t a wake up call to GM designers. These buyers are really PROUD of the Malibu’s superior design and they aren’t shy about parking it next to a BMW.
What is very clear from the Mall at Millenia parking lot is that nearly every patron drives a stylish car. And many more are driving cars ((about 65-70%) than SUVS, cross-overs, etc.
This market segment buys frequently. Most of the patrons appeared to own a recent model.
Popular restaurants around or near this mall are also filled with mostly newer model cars as well.
Though unscientific, the 2009-10 Malibu seems to equal or in some cases out number the new Accords, Camrys, and Altimas at these chain restaurants.
That would place it at a higher rate of sale or trend among this market segment. This market segment is also influentual in the community. What people “see” others driving may affect their “perception.”
The importance of this has not been overlooked by the competition. Car dealers seem to fight for space around this particular Mall. There are several luxury oriented car dealers in proximity to this particular mall.
What is very clear from the Mall at Millenia parking lot is that nearly every patron drives a stylish car.
I have no idea where this “Mall at Millenia” is, but it sounds upscale.
Why not try your same anecdotal survey at a K-Mart or Wal-Mart parking lot (where most of real America has to shop) and let us know what you find?
Felix:
When commenting on GM’s position in the market we have to remember they are still #1 in the US. While it is true that concerns about quality have affected GM’s share over the past 30 years or so its a little misleading to say GM needs to offer a better warranty because it’s reputation is not “established”. GM’s reputation is good enough to allow them to sell more cars than Toyota and FAR more cars than Honda or Nissan in the US. GM does need to improve the perception of its products but GM’s reputation is based just as much on ill informed notions of poor fuel economy and lackluster design as anything else. SOME people won’t buy GM because of reliability but many incorrectly think imports automatically get better mileage and some folks simply think its cooler to drive an import. Increasing the warranty would draw some customers but there is little evidence that it would lead to a massive increase in sales. Most people that are highly skeptical of GM or any brand will not be swayed by a beefed up warranty. Many folks still swear Hyundai has inferior quality even though they have a industry best warranty and have done decently in quality surveys.
While it is true that concerns about quality have affected GM’s share over the past 30 years or so its a little misleading to say GM needs to offer a better warranty because it’s reputation is not “established”. GM’s reputation is good enough to allow them to sell more cars than Toyota and FAR more cars than Honda or Nissan in the US.
Sheth jones,
Reputation is EXACTLY GM’s problem. Their reputation curve has been on a downward trajectory for three decades. The only reason they still have the market share they do is because of legacy sales — i.e. many people still buy them because of sentiments such as “We’ve always been a GM family.”
It’s really pretty simple — GM needs to make a bold statement to start that reputation trajectory bending back up.
“The only reason they still have the market share they do is because of legacy sales — i.e. many people still buy them because of sentiments such as “We’ve always been a GM family.””
You know that for a fact? Or is that just conjecture? BAsically you are insulting everyone who currently drives a late model GM product by claiming they are too loyal and ignorant to realize they SHOULD be buying something else. How do you know GM owners aren’t aware of the competition? To suggest that styling, pricing, performance or quality aren’t reasons why people by GM instead of the competition is ridiculous.
Where do you live?
In the Heartland, families take great pride in being “Ford families,” or “GM families,” or even “MOPAR families.” If your grandfather, father, and uncles all drove GM cars, chances are pretty high that is what you’ll drive too. (Haven’t you ever seen a farmer or contractor driving a Chevy pickup truck with a decal on the back that shows a little boy taking a leak on a Ford logo, or vice-versa?)
Those are the legacy sales I’m talking about. That’s not an insult, that’s the way the Heartland works. If your grandfather bought a Chevy from Mr. Bunsen down at Bunsen Motors, chances are you’ll be buying a Chevy from Mr. Bunsen’s grandson or granddaughter down at Bunsen Motors.
Sometimes that loyalty splits along church lines. In some small Heartland towns, the Catholics drive GM cars because the GM dealer belongs to the Catholic church, while the Lutherans mostly drive Fords, and the Baptists drive Chryslers. Or the members of the Elks, Eagles, or Moose Club may drive predominantly one brand of car because, by golly, old Ed (and his father and grandfather) who owns the local GM dealership, have always belonged to the Elks Clubs.
Those “legacy sales” contribute a great deal to whatever market share GM has been able to maintain.
Its really never been about quality per se, that’s been a media straw man for GM’s styling foibles over the years which starteed with the egg shaped Cutlass Supreme in 1989. Saturn siphoned too many invesment dollars away from design changes in GM’s core brands.
GM’s newest vehicles have the highest quality in the world and best warranty in the world. GM builds the best in the world.
The Malibu is the best in class compared to its main competitiors the Camry and Accord. Its better than Camry or Accord in every category, from looks to warranty to handlind, comfort, style, feel, interior, everything.
Its going to take persistence for the Malibu to climb in sales and GM should not take its eye off the ball by making the Malibu a compact. Marketing the Malibu is the next all import step. The Malibu should offer grab handles, a spoiler, and a 5 speed manual. A wagon for the Malibu might be smart option for Chevy.
The 2010 LaCrosse has apparantly broken the style barrier among upper end buying public for Buick. A Park Avenue and Riviera sedan with a small V-8 option could not come soon enough for Buick.
Let’s hope GM is listening. If they follow the enthusiast way, they will be number one globally in sales and Buick will surpass Lexus / Toyota and Infiniti / Nissan in sales
Building Quality Vehicles and selling them at a Value driven price would be a good start.
Far too many GM vehicles rate average or below in quality.
Sheth Jones said, “its a little misleading to say GM needs to offer a better warranty because it’s reputation is not “established”.”
GM’s market share hasn’t gone to zero because market share takes considerable time to lose, especially when purchases are normally 3 to 5 years apart or more.
GM’s reputation is, unfortunately, firmly established. However, it is established two different ways in two different populations… There are the GM loyalists, most of whom have never owned a car of another make, especially a foreign one, and many of whom will not even consider an Asian car, no matter the benefit. GM’s reputation with these folks is, “good enough.” Then there’s GM’s other reputation, among people who once owned a GM car and now own something else. For these folks, GM’s reputation is “not nearly as good.”
Back in the day, we were ALL driving GM cars (or domestics, anyway). GM’s reputation among those who have defected is based on experience and comparison.
And, right now, I don’t see anything GM’s doing to win those people back.
Bob,
Since you are into challenges, why didn’t GM entered the Auto X-Prize challenge? Progressive Automotive X Prize Challenge
I see Tata Motors of India is in the competition, but no GM. Why not?
I just hope the Aussies bring an HSV, It might just remind Fritz how close those forbidden Commodores are really missed in NA.
The Top Ten Cash for Clunkers New Cars:
1. Ford Focus
2. Honda Civic
3. Toyota Corolla
4. Toyota Prius
5. Ford Escape
6. Toyota Camry
7. Dodge Caliber
8. Hyundai Elantra
9. Honda Fit
10. Chevy Cobalt
Where are the GM vehicles on this list.
OH ! number 10
Once again customers have voted and GM’s share of this market declined/
Ken:
That isn’t a correct list. I’m assuming you are using the government’s flawed list. Edmunds composed an ACCURATE list in which all vehicles under a particular model were counted as ONE model and GM had 2 or 3 entries in the top 10. The Silverado actually made that correct list.
Edmunds is projecting GM’s share will be up about 3% this month. You might want to check that out, its all over the internet.
it’s all over the internet.
It is? Point me at a couple of websites where I could verify that.
Gunter Navarro said, “Point me at a couple of websites where I could verify that.”
I don’t know about any web sites for that but during the last Sales & Production conference call, in response to a questioner who pointed out steady declines in GM’s sales, Mark LaNeve said, “Tom, I will add that you will see these year-over-year comps dramatically change in a favorable way for us, starting in October.”
I am looking forward to hearing what LaNeve – well, now Susan Docherty – will have to say.
GM market share rise:
http://www.autoobserver.com/2009/10/gm-regaining-lost-market-share-ground-in-october-edmundscom-reports.html
GM’s market share is rising because they are following the enthusiasts lead. Let’s hope they keep it up. The managment is doing the right things. Let’s hope the board supports them.
Chevy is leading with a great new line-up. The Cobalt XFE has the highest in class fuel economy at 37 mpg, higher than Civic or Corolla.
The Malibu is a clear winner for Chevy with the best in class fuel economy, better than Accord or Camry. Let’s see a 5 speed manual, a spoiler, and some grab handles, with a special racing stripe paint option.
The LaCrosse is breaking the styling barrier for Buick among the high end car buyers. Its working. Buick just needs more car models. The LaCrosse will soon feature the Eco-tec 4. The Buick Regal will debut as a smart looking compact. Buick should have a full line of cars expanding on its great styling from the LaCrosse. The LaCrosse sold out upon delivery, even after the busy cash for clunkers incentive. Now let’s have:
Park Avenue with small V-8 option targeting BMW 745i on looks and style.
Riviera sedan (Aurora like), a GM classic, with a small V-8 option (4.0 to 5.3) targeting the BMW M3 and the Mercedes CLS 500.
And why not a Grand National G8.
BMW and Mercedes have plenty of performance to lure their buyers to their entry level and make profits. Lexus has lots of high end models to lure their buyers to the entry level.
Buick is the new class of world class, affordable luxury sport. GM can lead the car market once more, if they follow the enthusiasts lead. Establish Buick as the affordable luxury leader, and the rest will fall into place.
Can we get board approval on that?
“May the best Car Win” ~ Volt v. Focus BEV on Jay Leno’s “Green Car Challenge” course
Mr. Lutz,
Here’s the race I’d really like to see:
You against Alan Mullaly of Ford on Jay Leno’s “Green Car Challenge” course. You driving a Volt of course, and Mr Mullaly driving the battery electric vehicle (BEV) Ford Focus.
Is there any way to make that happen? Do you need a push from President Obama’s car czar?
GM’s reputation is good enough to allow them to sell more cars than Toyota.
Seth
You must remember that Toyota has two division and GM had seven up until their bankruptcy. Lets compare Toyota to Chevrolet for 2008 the last complete model year available. In what segment other than the Silverado compared to the Tundra does Chevrolet out sell Toyota? The same can be said for Buick or Cadillac which ever one you choose to compare with Lexus. I think it is a little misleading to compare two divisions against seven and declare the seven the winner.
I will give you one example Malibu vs Camary. The Malibu has gotten good reviews yet the Camary far outsells it. Some of it is perception some of it is piss poor marketing and some of it is the vehicle itself. Although the Malibu is a good vehicle it falls a little short in head to head comparisons to Camary. This should not be and GM needs to fix it and the other problem I mentioned in my previous post.
You were very set against not increasing the overall warranty but you never mentioned any of the other problems that I said they needed to address.I also realize that many of GM’s problems are misinformation about their products. I still say these are extraordinary times and GM needs to take extraordinary measures to move the iron. They need to do whatever it takes to to change that perception and agressively correct the misinformation. You have to admit they have been slow about doing any of these things. Other than not increasing the warranty do you have any suggestions to accomplish these goals. You said an increased warranty would draw some increase customers. Don’t you think any increase in customers is a good thing?
I will give you one example Malibu vs Camry. The Malibu has gotten good reviews yet the Camry far outsells it. Some of it is perception some of it is piss poor marketing and some of it is the vehicle itself. Although the Malibu is a good vehicle it falls a little short in head to head comparisons to Camry.
The Malibu is a good car, and is certainly competitive. But unfortunately, it is not the breakout car Chevy needs to overtake Camry. To get people to change their habit patterns and tendency to return to Toyota, GM needs something so good, people will say, “I’ve just got to have that.” The Malibu, while good, isn’t that breakout, “killer app” GM so desperately needs to overcome people’s perceptions.
We have a small fleet of cars in our company for people traveling on business. The fleet currently consists of Pontiac Vibes, Ford Focuses and Fusions, and Chevy Malibus. Most people will take whatever our fleet manager gives them, but those who do express a preference have been asking for the Vibes and Fusions. I’ve driven all four, and prefer the Vibe or Fusion to the Malibu.
The Vibe is a good car — one of the better ones GM made. Sorry to see it go. Too bad GM saddled it with a bad name and a weak marketing campaign. I’m now looking for a good used one for my daughter.
I see why you are worried that the Camry and Accord are not as good as the Malibu. The Malibu is better car, its handles better, it has better comfort, its better looking both inside and out, it has better fuel economy than Camry or Accord, and it has a better warranty.
Serious feedback
I am in need of a new car (my daughter is getting my 4 year old scion for college).
I went in to local Chevy dealer to look at simple commuting car to get me to work.
I told the salesman that I was looking at the cobalt. Wanted to test drive the following
Cobalt LT 4 door, auto, ps, pm, pw, cruise.
ISSUE 1: PRICE
The closest one they had came with extra things that pushed the price to 18900 with rebate (I was expecting approx 17000). Turns out ABS brakes are $400 extra (Toyota and scion include this in base price) and there was no cars on the lot that had ONLY options I wanted.
Just so you know the Toyota corolla with almost identical list of features was priced at 17400 before taxes. The Honda fit was priced at 16500.
ISSUE 2: FUEL EFFICIENCY
There was all kinds of TV ads and internet postings saying that the cobalt mpg is the best in class.
This is very deceiving…mileage for AUTOMATIC was 24 city / 33 hwy…nowhere near the 37 they advertise and not as good as corolla automatic 27 city / 35 highway or Honda Fit automatic 28 city / 35 highway.
ISSUE 3: WARRANTY
I will tell you the truth…the MAIN reason I thought about buying a Chevy was for the 100k warranty…turns out It is very specific…NOT A BUMPER TO BUMPER 100K WARRANTY.
I noticed some critical items only covered to 35k … Alternator, Air conditioning, Starter, ignition, radiator fans, and ALL interior electronics Pow Win motors, Pow Mir motors, Pow locks.
IN SUMMARY
If you REALLY want to get back customers you have lost to Toyota and Honda, try the following:
1. Price below Toyota and Honda, prove you can build a car for less.
2. Honesty about specs and features, do not give false advertisements about mileage and warranty.
3. BACK UP YOUR PRODUCT…make a REAL BUMPER TO BUMPER WARRANTY FOR 100K with 7 YEARS. (have deductible go up from $30 to $70 starting at year 3)
I will give you another try in 5 years when I come looking for my luxury car.
Honestly, GM has the best warranty, far better than Toyota or Honda.
And the Cobalt XFE does have the highest in class fuel economy, better then Corolla or Civic.
For the 1.8 L automatic Corolla its 26/34.
For the 2.4 L automatic Corolla its 22/30
For the 2.2L automatic Cobalt its 24/33.
However, the Cobalt 2.2L XFE 5 speed manual has the highest in class fuel EPA economy at 37 mpg. So the Chevy ad is correct. Its higher than the manual Corolla 1.8L at 34 or the Civic 1.8L at 34.
.
Well “honestly”
As I said you can not compare a Automatic MPG rating to a Manual MPG rating.
Deceptive advertising
Ohh and Manual…really only 1 out of 10 cars sold in USA is a manual.
ohh and “honestly” you can not compare a powertrain warranty to decades of reliability heritage.
Like I said I READ THE DETAILS of the new 5yr / 100k warranty. It is amazing how many critical things are NOT COVERED.
Engine Control module NOT COVERED
Engine sensors NOT COVERED
Alternator NOT COVERED
Ignition NOT COVERED
Starter NOT COVERED
Coolant lines NOT COVERED
Water pump NOT COVERED
Fuel pump, regulators, injectors NOT COVERED
Transmission pressure plate and clutch NOT COVERED
I like the new ‘May the best car win’, but I think you need to remind the American consumer that America was the one who started the auto revolution. The muscle cars ignited a passion and need for speed that the foreign markets have never been able to touch! Compare the ‘69 Camaro to a Honda Accord. Please! These Asian cars are a joke! I say have a marketing/advertising campaign that shows GM products with American artist songs in the background. Drill in the American part of your industry. Example, the new Camaro is tearing around a corner with Elvis’ ‘Burning Love’ in the background. Make the consumer feel guilty for buying an Asian car. They should! GM has better products to offer. I will always drive American and GM!
By the way, the CTS-V and Camaro totally rock!
The muscle cars ignited a passion and need for speed that the foreign markets have never been able to touch!
What need for speed? Where in the United States is traffic not so regulated and restricted, that in order to realize the speed potential of a muscle car, one has to be a law breaker?
New models on the way:
CADILLAC ATS sedan / coupe – its going to be absolutely awesome. If you haven’t seen this you should take a look at the tiny picture in Motor Trend for a huge sensation. When the bloggers toured GM, we saw a version of the ATS coupe.
The small sleek rendering of the new Cadillac ATS sedan in November 2009 Motor Trend on p. 15 is absolutely gorgeous, it even sports a grille like the XLR. The new ATS sedan should bring an all new excitement to Cadillac:
The streamlined ATS sedan cannot come soon enough for Cadillac. It is the strongest entrant yet in the small entry level luxury sedan market. The coupe is also nice and opens the possiblity for a convertable. Its looks like Cadillac is going to do this one right and upstage the Lexus IS and the BMW 3. Its appears to be just what we asked for too and its encouraging to see GM is listening to enthusiasts. If only it were out this holiday season. This is a special car that should energize Cadillac’s youth market. I already want one.
http://www.cars-data.com/en/new-cars/cadillac-ats/news.html
CHEVY ORLANDO – popular style
CHEVY CRUZE – great new name and cute compact.
CAMARO CONVERTABLE – Perfect.
2013 MALIBU – not sure its should be called a Malibu for a compact. GM should keep the mid-size Malibu.
2011 REGAL – Appears to be a cute car. Might be better as a Skylark since its a compact. Done right, the 2011 Regal could win over some Jetta buyers. Its should offer a black grille version and a dark shiny grille version like the Fusion as well as the standard Buick grille.
What’s missing at Buick and what GM should do about it:
PARK AVENUE – small 4.0 to 5.3 V-8 optiona and 3.0L V-6 base model to target the BMW 745i on style. Resembles a larger version of the 2010 LaCrosse.
RIVIERA sedan (like the Aurora) – small 4.0 to 5.3 V-8 option and 3.0 V-6 base model to target the BMW M3 and Mercedes CLS 500.
These two suggested sedans would make Buick the unquestioned leader in the affordable luxury market. They would take Buick outfront to be the leader. With this, Buick would leapfrog Lexus, Acura, and Infiniti as the leading style in affordable luxury world.
the Cadillac XTS was described in Motor Trend on line:
http://wot.motortrend.com/6567471/auto-news/details-revealed-on-the-cadillac-xts-ats-chevy-malibu-orlando-new-buicks/page3.html
The Cadillac XTS we saw when bloggers toured GM is stunning enough at first glance. The photo in Motortrend online of the Cadillac XTS gives a hint of its styling.
The venerable Northstar engine provides a fantastic driving experience and is a favorite of GM’s base customer and enthusiasts. The LS V-8 is very popular among GM’s base and enthusiasts alike. Enthusiasts are also fond of the Aurora 4.0 V-8 and the 5.3 V-8 engines.
Will GM implement a fuel efficient 4.0 V-8 program like the Ultra? Let’s hope so. Its important for GM to retain its reputation as a powertrain leader among luxury buyers.
Bold and edgy design at Cadillac has a special appeal.
Buick appears to have broken a new styling barrier among luxury buyers with the 2010 LaCrosse. Now that enthusiasts have kept Buick on the track to take on Lexus on styling, Lets’s one up the ante.
Let’s have Buick be the affordable BMW and Mercedes, and send Lexus packing once and for all.
A Buick Park Avenue styled to target the BMW 745i? Would GM do that? Would they include a small V-8 option for GM enthusiasts to get excited over?
A Riviera sedan (Aurora 4.0 like) with a small V-8 option to target the Mercedes CLS 500 and BMW M3 would energize GM’s base.
These two suggested sedans would bring home those wandering luxury buyers back to GM who are desperate for a stylish American sedan.
Luxury / and affordable luxury sport execttive car buyers trade cars often, they may buy as frequently as every two to three years, much more often than SUV or crossover buyers.
The foreign competition knows this and has relentlessly targeted GM’s stylish car base customer. This is the reason for much of GM’s issues. Stylish sedans (and coupes) are what the American people want to buy. They may have an SUV, but they really want a stylish sedan to park next to it to impress.
As noted, nowhere is this more evident than at the Mall at Millenia parking lot in Orlando where 65 to 70% of the vehicles parked on a busy October Saturday are stylish cars, both sedans and coupes. Only about 30-35% are SUVs and crossovers.
In zip codes where GM struggles for market share along the east coast, a similar pattern occurs among stylish sedan buyers.
Just how fast can Buick and Cadillac get these stylish sedans like the ATS to market? how fast can GM get a new Park Avenue that can take on a BMW 745i on looks to the market. A Riviera sedan that out styles the Mercedes CLS 500 and the BMW M3. This what the American people want to buy from Buick. They are so desperate for an American stylish sedan.
Americans want to see GM blessed with profits beyond belief. This can happen and it WILL happen if GM repsonds to the American demand for luxury and affordable luxury.
The MOST exiting news I’ve read recently regarding GM is the new Cadillac ATS sedan and the high level of interest people are taking in the new LaCrosse styling. If the ATS looks as awesome as the tiny little picture in Motor Trend, Cadillac is on the move once again.
These little rays of hope give us the confidence that GM will succeed far beyond what pundits and analysts expect.
MR. Lutz, Good luck on Thursday with the challenge, it will show that the CTS-V is a class leader when lined up against formidable competition.
As far as the mainstream CTS market goes, is there any chance GM will put a V8 into the CTS to compete against the BMW 550i?
GM already matches up against the rest of the 5-Series with:
CTS 3.0L V6 vs 528i
CTS 3.6L V6 vs 535i
and the
CTS-V vs the M5
How about a CTS DI 5.3L V8 vs 550i
A V8 powered CTS would attract luxury buyers who prefer V8 power for their cars and the 5.3L with Direct Injection will easily surpass the 550i’s MPG of 15/23 and could match the 528i 18/27 rating, but with V8 power.
GM can offer the 5.3L Di V8 on the new CTS Coupe where many in the segment look for V8 performance and spread it across the CTS lineup the next year, this will also give buyers who would like a CTS-V but cannot afford the price for all of the world class performance features it offers.
Of course there are 6.0L and 6.2L V8’s available for GM but I think a DI 5.3L with AFM will give space between it and the CTS-V while producing more than adequate perfomance with class leading MPG.
Mr. Lutz, Good luck on Thursday with the challenge…
Mr. Lutz,
Any decision yet on whether you will issue a similar challenge to Alan Mullay of Ford to race a Volt against the BEV Focus on Jay Leno’s “Green Car Challenge” course?
**** Lutz v. Mullaly **** Volt v. BEV Focus ****
What an audience you could draw. NBC, Jay Leno, GM, and Ford would all win.
I think a cross country race between the Volt and the BEV Focus would be better.
Of course it will be a short one – “up to 100 miles” or the range of the BEV Focus.
The Volt can go cross country, so that someone who owns a Volt can use it as their primary and even only car, something no all electric car can do, that is why the Volt is the best solution and its 40 mile range that many critics like to harp on will no doubt be extended in either the 2nd or 3rd generation designs (third generation already is in testing).
I am anxious to see how the Volt performs in the real world and is the only electric vehicle I would consider for my 60 mile commute since I will never have to worry about getting to work and back with it, something not always possible even with “up to 100 miles” of range – sometimes that 100 miles is more like 50 and that is not enough.
The Volt will also improve battery technology since it will be driven far more miles each day by actual owners and providing much more real world data due to its ability to be an “Extended Range Electric Vehicle” or EREV, an acronym you may want to get more familiar with.
I think a cross country race between the Volt and the BEV Focus would be better.
Perhaps, but which one would draw the most media attention?
Answer: Lutz v. Mullaly on Jay Leno’s back lot.
Mr. Lutz,
Any comment on the just released results of the Consumer Reports reliability survey? Good news for Malibu and Lucerne, not so good for the Cadillac CTS, Buick Enclave, and GMC Acadia.
Consumer Reports Reliability Results
“General Motors is a mixed bag. Among the bright spots is the redesigned Chevrolet Malibu; in its first year, the four-cylinder version is better than average and the V6 is average. The Buick Lucerne with a V8 and the Pontiac G6 with a four-cylinder are above average, and the Chevrolet Avalanche has improved to average.
But a quarter of GM models are still well below average in reliability. Some that didn’t fare well are fairly new designs that did well in our testing, such as the Cadillac CTS and the Buick Enclave, GMC Acadia, and Saturn Outlook SUV triplets. “
Let’s not take Consumers Reports seriously. it claims to be a “reader based” survey. And it reportedly has a low response rate which is unscientific.
We know from experience that GM vehicles are extremely reliable and our confidence is unshaken by these temporal surveys.
Sound move on your part Edwin. It’s never very smart to let ourselves be swayed by facts.
GM listen to your customers …….. Below average quality ratings will not build market share.
Do not be arrogant….. learn from the customer complaints and continually improve the quality.
GM don’t care about Consumer Report, its all media hype agains the Detroit Three. Peopul that want a Cadillac is gone to bye a Cadillac, it don’t make no mind about Consumer Report. I pay my taxes and I own part of GM now, so I’m goin to protec my portfolio an bye a Cadillac.
You shuld too if your a true blood American.
To hell with Consumer Report.
Hello Bob
This Cadillac reminds me of my fathers car and I am 61 years old.
Bob why don’t you and GM pull over to the side of the road and let the fast track people pass you.
I see GM is still running promos on 2009 gmc trucks. Any chance they may get shipped to Canada, we haven’t been able to get an ‘09 since June. There is still a strong market here for fullsize pickups, especially the discounted ‘09 sierras